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Vela

Alt Account
Banned
Apr 16, 2018
1,818
And purely using that reasoning ignores any possible agency on the part of Anet to manage and, if they determine it's needed, terminate its employees.

Saying she was her own undoing isn't ignoring that gamergate was trying t influence the situation, but I'm willing to bet any actual influence is overstated on both the part of this firing as well as the landscape of game devs as a whole and female devs specifically.

Mainly because as everyone notes, this harassment is not even remotely new.

"The influence of a hate mob is overstated"

Have you seen what is going on *right now*? People are getting targeted in social media by this hate mob. And what lead to Price getting called in by her shitty cowardly boss? Targeted campaigns.

I guess people think th only reason she was disciplined was because of gamergate pressure and not because she very publicly insulted a customer

Why did you think it "blew up"? And what about Arenanet at the very least considering the fucking ramifications of emboldening a hate mob who hate and targets outspoken women in games?
 

Janna OP

Member
Oct 25, 2017
593
Price did not act professionally on a public platform that is linked to ArenaNet by her own choice. It's extremely similar to the Tyler1/RiotSanjuro drama from a while back, except that the role of Sanjuro has been taken by Price. The inability for people to look past Price's gender and think of her as a victim when they wouldn't bat an eye if the roles were reversed, as they haven't in the past, is pure schadenfreude.
 

Heckler456

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,256
Belgium
Hey if you'd had things mansplained to you your whole life you'd probably be on edge too. Not saying it was right, but this isn't where the focus should be clearly. I guess it's about ethics in asshats now or something.
Before the age of 18, I had been bullied literally my whole life. Me being a sourpuss to everyone would certainly be explained by my history, but it sure doesn't excuse it. Same with this case. There was objectively no reason for her to be that mean. And from the way she's coming at this after getting fired, it sure doesn't seem like she was all that amenable in any way either.
 

Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,260
Hey if you'd had things mansplained to you your whole life you'd probably be on edge too. Not saying it was right, but this isn't where the focus should be clearly. I guess it's about ethics in asshats now or something.
If it's that's easy to throw you off then you probably shouldn't interact publicly with customers. That's something that goes for all genders
 

BeeKaine

Banned
Apr 21, 2018
736
Have you seen what is going on *right now*? People are getting targeted in social media by this hate mob

People being harassed would have never ever, in the history of the internet, happen without this specific event.

And what lead to Price getting called in by her shitty cowardly boss?

Insulting a content creator?

Y'know, the event that happened first?
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,487
It's telling where people's focus is at. Like if the first reaction a person has after reading the story is "well it was her fault!" that kinda is sad

Can you point me to what is happening to her since the firing? I've read the Eurogamer and PC Gamer articles in the opening and I largely am unsure what the major controversy is. Has something else occurred?
 

Dennis8K

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,161
Why do professionals, who aren't movie or music stars, need a twitter account?

It is a potential career land mine with no apparent reward even at the best of times.

The nature of the platform makes it super easy to make short, un-nuanced, remarks that land you in trouble.
 

Deleted member 4037

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,989
Okay, I appear to have missed this but am now caught up I think and while some may disagree that the punishment was too harsh, it was justified imo. A twitter feed is not private unless you make it that way, if you throw a topic into the open, people will comment on it. The initial comment seemed respectful, I see no reason for the hostility on her end. The guy who got fired as well seemed to echo that its a private twitter account and shes not on the clock, but if thats the case make it private and dont engage with the community, you are putting yourself out there. Im sure there are a lot of dicks who harrassed her and im sure shes had to deal with sexism, but im really not sure where that turn came from given what I would consider to be a respectful response. She just kind of assumed it was due to sexism and really to just assume it is because of that is very hurtful especially given that she had started the hostility. She was in the wrong here, the guy probably was trying to help a friend out, but it was misguided, even on a personal account, if you engage with members of the community, you are representing the company. As far as I can tell sexism played no role in this and thats not to diminish the very real sexism that goes on especially in game development
 

Tahnit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,965
Etiquette never mattered much to him in life when it came to his support for a hate group. Why should the people he helped victimize afford it to him?

Because he was a person. Who had people
Who loved him. He had a family and friends. Keeping ones mouth shut about celebrating his death is just common sense and just plain being a decent human being.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
It's an astounding leap to say that being moderately unkind about the recently deceased by noting their past actions would make them look as bad as somebody who spent a very significant part of their final years supporting a hate group.

The thing is any kind of "unkindness" gets amplified 10 fold or more when the subject of conversation is deceased. Is it logical? Absolutely not. I remember a Bob's Burgers episode that went into detail about how we should care about the living more than the deceased in situations like these because, well, they're dead.

But the reality is some form of common sense is associated with talking ill of the dead and you have to do it very carefully, as illogical as it is, unless of course they were an unambiguous monster.

TB was a flawed human being who caused a ton of harm in the industry. But he was also a beloved figure with more love surrounding him than hate within that same industry. I saw a ton of people everywhere come together to mourn him, including those in the marginalized groups that many see as him having attacked in the past. Now if you want to say that reflects poorly on the industry, fine. I know people will drag Keighley through the mud for that and similar things. But the point is this isn't Bin Laden and how people reacted on social media in America. This is a controversial figure who made enough people smile for his death to be something worth mourning over, and based on the response I'd say more people than he unfortunately hurt. When you know that, going in to criticize him with implications about how you really feel about the guy is going to look extremely bad for you and potentially your employer unless the base you're catering to shares that opinion. Doing so more than anything is an inability to read the room to some extent.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,379
"The influence of a hate mob is overstated"

Have you seen what is going on *right now*? People are getting targeted in social media by this hate mob. And what lead to Price getting called in by her shitty cowardly boss? Targeted campaigns.

And how many are fired?

An increase in disregarded garbage does not mean an increase in influence.
 

Blade Wolf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,512
Taiwan
Deserves to be fired. Definitely doesn't deserve a hate mob.
It's honestly that simple.

Why is this is so hard to conprehend?

It's like there can only be two possible argument, either she is totally not at fault and ArenNet is evil or she deseves everything happened to her including GG harrasment. It's just baffling.

Personally I don't think she "deserves" to be fired, but no doubt she is the one at fault here, her behavior was extremely rude and unprofessional.

I feel bad for her and wish her lands on her feet, but I also wish her treat fans better in the future.
 

Holundrian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,128
People can read my opinions on this a few pages before and despite disagreeing so hard on the firing.(As a preface cause it feels really bad making the next statement)

Seeing this new line of argument that kinda wants to legitimize being shitty to people as a right. I'm not a fan.
That said I do have empathy to the position it comes from cause of the disparate amount of bs women have to face.

But it still seems misguided. *sigh* fuck I hate kinda being this guy now.
It feels we should at least acknowledge that these interaction regardless of who shouldn't be things people advocate for. But man fuck I know this is kinda hollow given I will never ever face the same amount of garbage others do.
 

Dennis8K

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,161
Insulting your clients or customers in public to humiliate them also seems like a dubious business plan.
 

Deleted member 8861

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,564
People can make impassioned speeches to their defense without calling other people names. She would have been able to defend herself without being absolutely vile towards the person she was responding to for no reason. Why are people so quick to defend what is by all accounts an asshole? It's like some of you people are starting off with the viewpoint "firing her is wrong", and are pulling every straw imaginable to justify this point of view.
I mean, firing her really aggravated the GG crowd and left two productive developers without work.

I don't think her rudeness was worth that.

So looking at things in general, and considering how work is someone's entire livelihood, I think this should've been dealt with less severely/hastily.
 

Teiresias

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,210
So the solution is to create a fake twitter profile or have your real name and profile kidnapped by the company you work for? I know that's how it is, but I'm kinda hoping people realizes how bullshit it is and because "it is how it is" makes it totally ok

I think modern social platforms just make this more of a problem than it has ever been and I'm not sure there's actually a good solution to it. Back in the day the only way someone would gain the kind of public notoriety that would lead to their firing for something like this would be writing an op-ed in a major national publication or large circulation local newspaper, or, less likely, writing a letter to the editor with something problematic in it that gains attention, or saying something in a local news on-air interview or something. In all of these cases, the circulation and visibility was still far less than someone can INSTANTLY get by going viral on a modern social platform.

The people that used to get access to writing op-eds and representing companies to that degree to hugely large audiences were higher ups anyway. Now, everyone has a profile and can put their employer on it if they choose to, making them instantly a public facing rep of that company even if it's a private account.
 

Deleted member 15326

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,219
Hey if you'd had things mansplained to you your whole life you'd probably be on edge too. Not saying it was right, but this isn't where the focus should be clearly. I guess it's about ethics in asshats now or something.

But you and many others are saying it was right, or at the very least acceptable, by pushing to ignore it when none of this would have gone down without it.

You can't insult customers in a public space without repercussions. That's how it is with any job.

Gamergate is trying to jump on this with other women but even if it didn't exist Price still would have been disciplined in some fashion because that's how most businesses operate.
 

Khamsinvera

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,580
Trump is the GODDAMN president of a country. That's why he can't block people on his account.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ment-free-speech-naomi-buchwald-a8366216.html

are you really comparing a game developer to the fucking president?

like what purpose does this post serve

I'm glad you asked that question. It's the concept of agency. Price was no longer representing herself as an individual. By identifying herself as an employee of a company on a public platform AND engaging customers of the same company AND talking about the functions of the same company, she becomes an "agent" of the same company interfacing with the company's clients.

The concept of agency is covered under Tort law - and yes, there are laws governing agency. If Price tries to sue, she'll probably lose based on the fact that she was an agent of the company.
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,002
UK
So the solution is to create a fake twitter profile or have your real name and profile kidnapped by the company you work for? I know that's how it is, but I'm kinda hoping people realizes how bullshit it is and because "it is how it is" makes it totally ok

You thinking it's bullshit doesn't matter, it is what it is

We're here on Era because someone was an asshole and 40,000 people no longer wanted to associate with or support someone who did something we deemed unacceptable, the reputation was forever tarnished as we had to leave. In the space of a few days everything changed

If she hurts the company she works for and she insults its users and that snowballs into people leaving the game or a ton of negative PR, then yes, she has to go, and more importantly she was the one in the wrong here
 

Stardestroyer

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,819
You know an easy way to not lose your job? Don't publicly insult your customers, mock someones death, or talk crap about your previous employers when you're inevitably let go for toxic behaviour.

The bolded is apparent from the fact here we are arguing about it. It is not some great revelation. Companies have the right to do whatever they feel is in their best interest.

I don't like the decision and I think it was extremely shortsighted, especially since GG have had a bone to pick with her the moment she was hired. There was a thread about it on her first day, so a subset already had a bone to pick this was just an opportunity they exploited.

You don't insult your external customers but you also have to protect your internal customers (employees) from horrible external customers. This issue could have been solved with a warning and apology to the victim, especially when no prior was given especially since the insult wasn't that severe and it wasn't unprovoked.

More importantly, Peter Fries should not have been fired. You can argue all you want about JP, but PF was a person standing up for a coworker it did not warrant his termination. It goes to show how Arenanl Net was simply reacting to an angry mob. I guess Arena net were afraid of losing the imaginary gem purchase that GGer made to a game they never played.

In this case they focus only on the external customers, while failing their internal customers ( employees) both of them are important. Especially in a company with so much turn over and lower pay. I wonder how this incident will affect them?

(In any case, it enough for me to move on from the game, I will miss the za warudo.)
 

kyorii

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,979
Splatlandia
Might get you a reprimand, or you'll have to attend a seminar on social media conduct. Something along those lines.

It is absolutely not a first-offense firing kind of bad.
I'd say it depends, when I look at a case of profanity whatnot, what weight it holds depends if it were directed at someone or not. If they were just using profanity willingly but not directed at anyone. That's more warning material, but once you start directing it at someone, especially a customer, the company can not only have grounds to reprimand but even termination on that alone. Depending on the ramifications of said comment of course.
 

Dennis8K

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,161
Note to self: don't hire people who tell you at the job interview that they like to be assholes on social media.
 

Nairume

SaGa Sage
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,920
Because he was a person. Who had people
Who loved him. He had a family and friends. Keeping ones mouth shut about celebrating his death is just common sense and just plain being a decent human being.
That there were people who loved him doesn't suddenly make the shitty things he did suddenly go away and they people he hurt suddenly healed. We should never expect the victims of people who did bad things to be civil.
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,891
Because they aren't deserving of a civil discourse. A forum that values marginalized members would have banned several of the users in this thread months ago.

Okay, if you are going to claim people should be banned, you need to show some receipts. Resetera has always done a pretty damn good job to keep things clean and respectful. The worst people are banned pretty consistently.
 

Opto

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,546
You thinking it's bullshit doesn't matter, it is what it is

We're here on Era because someone was an asshole and 40,000 people no longer wanted to associate with or support someone who did something we deemed unacceptable, the reputation was forever tarnished as we had to leave. In the space of a few days everything changed

If she hurts the company she works for and she insults its users and that snowballs into people leaving the game or a ton of negative PR, then yes, she has to go, and more importantly she was the one in the wrong here
If EvilLore (hi you repugnant dick) had just called someone an asshat for telling him how to run a forum, we wouldn't be here
 

Deleted member 1635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,800
She wasn't representing her company, she was just exisiting

The part where an unqualified man told a qualified woman how her job works after she just explained it

That's like the dictionary definition of mansplaining lmao

She was absolutely representing her company by publicly talking about her work in both general and specific terms throughout that thread.

To say that you cannot disagree with "I'm not sure if it's possible to make an MMORPG (or CRPG) character compelling, because people have different expectations about what that character will be" and offer reasoning why you think you actually can without that turning into "mansplaining" just because one person is employed as a writer and the other is not, is ridiculous to me.
 

Heckler456

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,256
Belgium
I mean, firing her really aggravated the GG crowd and left two productive developers without work.

I don't think her rudeness was worth that.

So looking at things in general, and considering how work is someone's entire livelihood, I think this should've been dealt with less severely/hastily.
She almost certainly was not fired for the sole fact of having insulted someone. Maybe the wanted to make her give a public apology, but she refused. Maybe the looked at some other choice comments of her, and saw it was a chronic problem. Bottom line is, we don't know the details, but logic dictates that you don't just fire 2 seemingly valued employees without good reason.
 

Kumquat

Member
Jan 23, 2018
780
Might get you a reprimand, or you'll have to attend a seminar on social media conduct. Something along those lines.

It is absolutely not a first-offense firing kind of bad.

The context is important. I agree with you and if she had done it to a regular member of the community it likely would have been a reprimand and a statement. The problem is she targeted a content creator that works with the studio and helps drive people to the game so Deroir is actually a revenue generator beyond his own account. That is why it went from 0-fired that quick.
 

Gasoline

Member
Jun 14, 2018
67
More importantly, Peter Fries should not have been fired. You can argue all you want about JP, but PF was a guy standing up for a coworker it did not warrant his termination. It goes to show how Arenanl Net was simply reacting to an angry mob, none to hold negative opinions about issues like this. I guess Arena net were afraid of losing the imaginary gem purchase that GG made to a game, they never played.

Tons of people are completely ignoring Fries' firing for standing up for a colleague because it doesn't fit in their narrative of "Price bad".

His firing is clearly meant to convey the message to ArenaNet's employees that they better not support each other or speak up against harassment if they want to keep their jobs.