So any constructive criticism, especially after a public AMA, is a no go?
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The controversial ArenaNet firings of Guild Wars 2 writers (READ OP)
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So any constructive criticism, especially after a public AMA, is a no go?
I like how no one replies arguing against this because they know they don't have an answer lol.
I actually think it's a bad thing for companies to back their customers over employees when the employee has nothing wrong, especially compared to the torrent of horribleness every game developer has to deal with from their shitty fanbases.
Yeah but hey check this out: that doesn't mean the company is right
She was BULLYING now?? Like why do you guys have to use such hyperbole
Not to mention that this all came from her posting about an AMA and behind the scene stuff of GW2.
I keep seeing people claiming that a person's Twitter is some sort of platform where you have a right to say anything you want to the person and merit a response. Ignoring for a moment that this is literally the definition of a sea lion, a person posting a blog and then getting annoyed at a commenter is not at all the same as a person willingly coming to a forum like ERA to have a conversation.
Well put. I remember when my mom died, later in the day after the funeral myself and some family members were talking about how she was such a wonderful person. I decided to quietly pipe up about some of the hurtful things she had done to me, and how my life might be both better and worse with her gone, and shortly afterwards some other family members started talking about it too. We all ended up having a very cathartic and healthy conversation about the good and bad things she did in her life, and it did a lot of good in healing old wounds and making peace with her death.
I think about this a lot whenever someone tells victims of Gamergate that they should all sit down and shut up and not discuss the fact that their beloved PC gaming king was also the chief legitimizer and cheerleader of the biggest organized harassment movement in the history of the internet. Abusers are allowed to control their narrative even after they're gone, because they will always have willing sycophants who do it for them.
Well put. I remember when my mom died, later in the day after the funeral myself and some family members were talking about how she was such a wonderful person. I decided to quietly pipe up about some of the hurtful things she had done to me, and how my life might be both better and worse with her gone, and shortly afterwards some other family members started talking about it too. We all ended up having a very cathartic and healthy conversation about the good and bad things she did in her life, and it did a lot of good in healing old wounds and making peace with her death.
I think about this a lot whenever someone tells victims of Gamergate that they should all sit down and shut up and not discuss the fact that their beloved PC gaming king was also the chief legitimizer and cheerleader of the biggest organized harassment movement in the history of the internet. Abusers are allowed to control their narrative even after they're gone, because they will always have willing sycophants who do it for them.
Yes, if the person isn't specifically asking for it. There's a difference between an AMA and jumping in somebodies mentions. Especially if this is a person who has dealt with or has had to deal with abuse before.
Well very few people are taking note of the other guy in general.
Him getting fired lends credence to Arena net not bowing to GG as the narrative some think is the case.
I personally wished he did not get punished as harshly as Jessica but it makes sense for Arena to do it.
His active support of Jessica also directly contradicts Arena's customer facing position. If they had only fired Jessica you can bet more people pushing the gg forcing Arena hand would be pointing out the double standard in not punishing him at all.
And ultimately neither side in this specific debate matters to Arena. The CEO isn't looking to answer the question of do women need to be protected from sexists. The CEO was answering the question is it ok for employees to display open hostility to customers.
While I understand your frustration and anger, can you not call people idiots here?
Also I'm not "one of them" if that's what you are thinking. I feel bad for Jessica.
im not giving anyone the benefit of the doubt, im just reserving judgement due to not having enough information. thats something those "journalists" should have been doing as well, and trying to reach that information before making their judgements. thats the reason a lot of people are accusing them of pushing an agenda, because they present no evidence.
What about Peter Fries? Almost no one agrees with his firing, but who knows what the actual details are?
Wasn't it the Guild Wars 2 fanbase that reacted to Price's tweets, though?
According to the company that did the firing (one of them totally unrelated to said cause) and which CEO didn't really stood proudly and supported the people doing the harassment(sarcasm) said harassment didn't had anything to do with the firing.
For the record Jessica Price has been a target of hate movements for at least a year before her recent comments and firing. Several sites and subreddits popular among hate movements like r/Kotakuinaction and Kiwifarms had threads or comments labeling her as a "notorious SJW" when she left the company she previously worked at before Arenanet. The thread on the GW2 subreddit about her joining ArenaNet was locked by moderators after it was derailed by negative comments about her and her "politics" – https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/6oplet/jessica_price_joins_arenanet_narrative_team/
It's simply not accurate to suggest that Jessica only became a target of harassment after she was already fired.
It's simply not accurate to suggest that Jessica only became a target of harassment after she was already fired.
Go search twitter before the firing and the gg subreddits
Then add the years long stalking and harassment of her elsewhere
So yeah
Where? Someone from Arenanet posting here?
He got fired too, apparently for defending Price.
No one includes his tweet in the threads and i haven't seen it (think it may have been deleted?)
How can you defend the actions of a company on one hand and then not on another when they're dealing with the same issue? Either they handled it right or they handled it wrong
I have no opinion. I don't know who he is, or why he was fired in the first place. But, the community seems to believe his firing wasn't justified, I guess?
Poor Fries too, nobody seems to care about him. It's really fucked up situation and there's so many better scenarios how this could have played out. Things Price and/or AraneNet should have done differently.
I'd like to repeat this post
Many sites are using this as an ideological dagger ignroing all the things that actually happened. Many many members of this form have been much more even handed. I appreciate that.
User Banned (Permanent): Aggressively pursuing a false narrative pertaining to harassment campaigns, account still in the junior phase.
It was contained to the GW2 subreddit and ANet's own forums. GG hubs like KiA made threads long after the drama unfolded. The "hate mob" was almost entirely GW2 fans on Reddit, who were shocked/angry at Price's Twitter meltdown and attack on a prominent community member. I know this because I was literally following it in real-time, as it occurred.
But hey, facts don't seem to matter anymore and different groups want to push their agenda and revise history, regardless of evidence.
This isn't what happened. Sure if you change what he actually tweeted it does fit your narrative.
Is there like a rage meter that needs to be filled or something? You think that justifies anyone to act in an irresponsible manner?
How can people pretend Jessica Price was deservedly fired and not because of hate mob pressure when Peter Fries was also fired for simply defending a colleague.
How is it that the talk about his firing is so low in comparison to Prices.
Really makes you think.
Funny, that's how I would respond to the vast majority of your posts in this thread.
What a random coincidence!
Subtweeting (which is a long accepted precursor to harassment for public figures) them after calling them an asshat doesn't have to be "Nazi bad" for it to be bad. You're still exercising your free speech in an abrasive way, and thus the consequences that come your way don't have to be kind either. Do I think there's levels? Absolutely. As I've said in the thread before, I don't think she should have gotten fired. But the base level of this conversation here is still "consequences for speech", which are at the discretion of the employer.
I'm not going to temper my language when addressing people reporting another woman for complaining about sexist behavior.
You're cool though dont worry. I didn't @ you so i'm not talking about you; just whatever jerks reported her
Do you really not see a problem with a bad PR move from ArenaNet emboldening hate groups? I know you're trying to say there's gonna be nothing new, but I'm not sure what the usefulness is in saying "but the status quo won't change, what's the big deal??" To the people who constantly are on the receiving end of this something like ArenaNet's response perpetuating the status quo is bad enough even if no new "ground" is being broken.
I would agree that GG is not a boogeyman and has expanded further into a general shitty cultural climate consisting of racists, bigots, sexists, alt-righters, etc. (I'm obviously aware bigotry didn't begin in 2015 lol). I also see a value in using words better in that not everything is automatically GG when bigotry doesn't necessarily coalesce into one group.
Given what I just said above though, now it seems like you're arguing none of this as big a deal because GG as a single coalesced hate group is not as big as it was in 2015? This almost sounds like you're saying the bigotry magically died down after 2016, which I think you would agree with me in saying there's no reason why something like that would've happened...?
I'm not sure exactly which those articles are, but I'm personally more invested in ArenaNet's tone-deaf response and what it's doing to the shitty "gamer" cultural climate.
I don't think it's enough for us to collectively say "well assholes are gonna asshole, what're you gonna do *shrug emote*". That's accepting, if not outright supporting, the maintenance of a status quo, one which is obviously hostile to women. Even if the "Brave lady fired for fighting against mainsplaining" narrative is disagreeable to you, it would be pretty bizarre to push to the notion that NOTHING about this entire debacle (her being rude, the backlash, ArenaNet's response, shitty people's reactions to that response) is in any way made worse by the rampant sexism in gaming culture. Or at least nothing that should raise eyebrows in any way.
I can see why people would doubt him, but that doesn't mean someone was "lying and blllshitting" for repeating the ceos claim.
In the statement he claims that they came to the decision early but couldn't act because it was a holiday
This really doesn't add up to the amount of GW2 community people all but saying they've had it out for her for years when the decision was announced.
Ahhh, but not firing Price would stop all of the harassment because this specific incident was the whole of what emboldened harassers past, present and future.
Lets look at the actual results here instead of placing the whole of sexist harassment at Anet's feet because they disciplined an employee for actually violating their code of conduct.
My purpose is to say that the standards of employment are not the same across all jobs/industries. Ex. My schedule is flexible, I can be late, leave early, etc., of my own accord because my position allows me to do so. Comparitivley a Starbucks barista would be fired for this. People have mentioned that she should not be afforded the leeway people like Kamiya and Cliffy have, because they are excutive level creators/owners, and thus they are allowed to talk to people as they see fit. Point being perhaps we should compare her actions to her peers within her industry, or similar industries. She is obviously not a customer facing employee in the way a Starbucks barista is, so it seems a bit pointless to go down that path.
Comparatively, I don't recall Jay Wilson getting fired for anything he did after the launch of Diablo 3, including the infamous "fuck that loser", comment. Certainly more inflammatory than what was said here.
Right or wrong is irrelevant. Companies regularly fired people for the shit they do on social media everyday. There's barely a day that goes by that there isn't some news article about someone showing their ass on Twitter or Facebook and getting fired for it. If this concept is too hard to understand or you think is unfair, then be your own boss. Then, you can act however you want on social media without having to worry about keeping your job.
That's some bullshit and I'm sorry you have to deal with that. I disagree with you on some points regarding the firing of JP but it saddens me to see this community resorting to crap like this. Era was literally born from taking a stand against this stuff and I seriously thought we could have some level-headed debate without resorting to that kind of crap but this thread is very quickly devolving into name calling and lines in the sand being drawn and I'm seriously not down with that.
You have enough information stop being disingenuous pretending you aren't ignoring the things I mentioned at convenience.
This is the kinda of argument people use in cases where subtle racism takes place. Somehow unless it's telling someone the n word in their face it's not really racists.
The same way you seem to think somehow without the tweets not looking at everything I cited somehow this is conveniently deserved.
If I didn't know better I would think that all of these Nice Dudes who are so passionate about and concerned with how employees interact on twitter might have a subconscious bias against women
hyperbole? you mean like this:
Outsiders not liking someone doesn't mean those involved are incapable of making independent decisions.
Because you can? I see no inconsistency with agreeing with ANet on Price, and disagreeing with ANet on Fries.
I think Price acted unprofessionally within her professional capacity, and paid for it.
I think Fries tried to defend Price, and unfortunately got sucked all the way into the vortex that Price created.
Whoa it's like we got teleported from ResetEra to a court of law or something.
i swear we just spent pages upon pages talking about what's right and wrong
Calling a customer who was offering polite feedback/criticism a "rando asshat" is doing nothing wrong? C'mon now.
If the situation had been different - if the fan had indeed been an asshole who was openly antagonistic - I would be fully behind Price. Responding in the way she did probably still would not have been the smartest choice purely from a PR perspective, but sure as hell she would have my support, because as you say, devs got a lot of shit thrown their way. But clearly this was not that sort of situation.
Hold up. You replying to someone with literal fucking barking, isn't trolling?
Goddamn, I could be getting away with so much more!
In the world of Social Media when you partake in an open forum like Twitter, when you discuss intricacies related to your job you are representing your company like it or not. I work for a public facing company as a Software Engineer and every year we have to go through a course that details this sort of situation and how it is NOT OK to do.