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Nairume

SaGa Sage
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,924
Well lets try to be productive then instead of yelling at each other. How should he have disagreed with what she said about dialogue options without coming off as mansplaining?


IUiPgCC.png


This is the original tweet that set things off.
"What do you think about the constraints of a living narrative? I always thought x"
 

OmegaX

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,119
I keep seeing people claiming that a person's Twitter is some sort of platform where you have a right to say anything you want to the person and merit a response. Ignoring for a moment that this is literally the definition of a sea lion, a person posting a blog and then getting annoyed at a commenter is not at all the same as a person willingly coming to a forum like ERA to have a conversation.

This incident wasn't a sea lion. A sea lion is when people comment on ANY unrelated tweet asking that the person engage them on a topic of their own choosing regardless of what the actual conversation was about. For examples, see any tweet by Lindsay Ellis, she has hordes of trolls trying to make her debate them. What happened here was an innocent question that should have gone unanswered if Price didn't feel like replying to it. If the streamer decided to go all hot and bothered on why won't she debate him AFTER Price ignored him, then it would have been a sea lion.
 

Deleted member 20892

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,958

Holundrian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,134
What about Peter Fries? Almost no one agrees with his firing, but who knows what the actual details are?
It's cool that you reached this conclusion but I sure didn't reach the same after reading through this thread seeing almost no one bring him up in the discussion or consideration when judging Price. All I've seen is his case being conveniently ignored to push a narrative we really shouldn't push in the climate we have.

For fucks sake Battlefield 5 was not that long ago.

I have no opinion. I don't know who he is, or why he was fired in the first place. But, the community seems to believe his firing wasn't justified, I guess?
Convenient.
 

Deleted member 4021

Oct 25, 2017
1,707
For the record Jessica Price has been a target of hate movements for at least a year before her recent comments and firing. Several sites and subreddits popular among hate movements like r/Kotakuinaction and Kiwifarms had threads or comments labeling her as a "notorious SJW" when she left the company she previously worked at before Arenanet. The thread on the GW2 subreddit about her joining ArenaNet was locked by moderators after it was derailed by negative comments about her and her "politics" – https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/6oplet/jessica_price_joins_arenanet_narrative_team/

It's simply not accurate to suggest that Jessica only became a target of harassment after she was already fired.
Yep. GG had a target painted on her from the beginning.
 

Vela

Alt Account
Banned
Apr 16, 2018
1,818
Word, wasn't up on that.

I mean this in a nice way: Maybe it would help if you'd listen to some of us? And understand that this is not just about someone being rude on social media but it's much larger than this and has severe implications for developers, especially those who are people of color, lgbtq, women, etc
 

Deleted member 2620

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,491
For the record Jessica Price has been a target of hate movements for at least a year before her recent comments and firing. Several sites and subreddits popular among hate movements like r/Kotakuinaction and Kiwifarms had threads or comments labeling her as a "notorious SJW" when she left the company she previously worked at before Arenanet. The thread on the GW2 subreddit about her joining ArenaNet was locked by moderators after it was derailed by negative comments about her and her "politics" – https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/6oplet/jessica_price_joins_arenanet_narrative_team/

It's simply not accurate to suggest that Jessica only became a target of harassment after she was already fired.
Yeah this is good context.
 

Vicious17

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,293
It's cool that you reached this conclusion but I sure didn't reach the same after reading through this thread seeing almost no one bring him up in the discussion or consideration when judging Price. All I've seen is his case being conveniently ignored to push a narrative we really shouldn't push in the climate we have.

For fucks sake Battlefield 5 was not that long ago.


Convenient.

Whats conveniet? He's almost never brought up, there are next to no details on his firing.

Can you just.... not?

Can I not what? BDS has been nothing but a jerk this entire thread, and got away with it. How is that fine?
 

JesseEwiak

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
3,781
Calling a customer who was offering polite feedback/criticism a "rando asshat" is doing nothing wrong? C'mon now.

If the situation had been different - if the fan had indeed been an asshole who was openly antagonistic - I would be fully behind Price. Responding in the way she did probably still would not have been the smartest choice purely from a PR perspective, but sure as hell she would have my support, because as you say, devs got a lot of shit thrown their way. But clearly this was not that sort of situation.

As B-Dubs has pointed out, an employer who cared about their employees would be aware there had been a campaign to harass Price instead of going, "oh, she was mean to somebody. The horror! Let us fire her to make our customers happy."

Having a conversation about things would be fine. Firing her the moment you got in the door on July 5th was the issue here.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,379
Some of you are dead set on empowering GG to be the source of anything and everything. It's like all of you are begging an industry you believe has absolutely no capacity for autonomous thought when it comes to their personnel management to do something here. Funny thing is, if you were right Price would still possibly have a job from all the "Anet doesn't stand by its employees" parroting going on.
 

Blade Wolf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,512
Taiwan
Poor Fries too, nobody seems to care about him. It's really fucked up situation and there's so many better scenarios how this could have played out. Things Price and/or AraneNet should have done differently.

I also feel bad for him, you could argue that this whole thing is either Jessica Price or ArenaNet's fault but Fries? He literally did nothing.

Pretty much everyone who agreed with Jessica's fire would disagree with Fries' fire.

I would even argue that he is probably the biggest victim here, especially since no one seemed to care or even defend him.
 

Deleted member 5596

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,747
Funny, that's how I would respond to the vast majority of your posts in this thread.

What a random coincidence!

Is just funny to me, how you are very upset at her, calling yourself "anti-price", but you can't be bothered to look at his case not even having an opinion. It made me lol IRL, sorry if it offended you.

I can see why people would doubt him, but that doesn't mean someone was "lying and blllshitting" for repeating the ceos claim.

In the statement he claims that they came to the decision early but couldn't act because it was a holiday

tenor.gif
 

DorkyMohr

User requested ban
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
110
For the record Jessica Price has been a target of hate movements for at least a year before her recent comments and firing. Several sites and subreddits popular among hate movements like r/Kotakuinaction and Kiwifarms had threads or comments labeling her as a "notorious SJW" when she left the company she previously worked at before Arenanet. The thread on the GW2 subreddit about her joining ArenaNet was locked by moderators after it was derailed by negative comments about her and her "politics" – https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/6oplet/jessica_price_joins_arenanet_narrative_team/

It's simply not accurate to suggest that Jessica only became a target of harassment after she was already fired.

Thank you, the fact that Price was fired so swiftly after the incident grants ArenaNet ZERO deniability that they weren't influenced by a hate mob. They caved as soon as it was convenient to.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,487
I keep seeing people claiming that a person's Twitter is some sort of platform where you have a right to say anything you want to the person and merit a response.

I don't think from what I have read thus far in the thread people have claimed that anything someone says to you on twitter merits a response. I will say though that the rules of engagement for twitter start and end at whatever the TOS are and whatever the privacy settings allow in terms of restricting who can see and access your profile. If you use social media accounts where anyone can follow you and anyone can follow you, you are in fact not entitled to say "hey this was a private thought and I don't want comments". The platform isn't designed for that, it's very clearly not how it works and appeals to common courtesy are flawed her.


Sealioing has context. If you were just involved in an AMA, you're going to be setting the precedent that fans will try to interact with you. You don't have to like it but it's still naive to think once you open the channels of communication and use a platform like twitter where you can directly message high profile users, no one is going to engage you.

a person posting a blog and then getting annoyed at a commenter is not at all the same as a person willingly coming to a forum like ERA to have a conversation.

This is valid but it's still ignoring what Twitter ultimately is. It's a platform with engagement built into its core.
 

Complicated

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,332
On the one hand, you have the issue of a developer being rude to a customer. She was doing it because she is under constant assault from good and bad actors doubting her knowledge and expertise because she is a woman. She called him a name and dismissed his surface level comments as just that. This is not something male developers deal with and we have examples of male developers with long histories of much worse behavior toward fans (good and bad actors here as well) in defense of sexist game design, storytelling, personal attacks, etc. rather than the simple act of pushing back against troubling and misogynistic interactions with fans. Men lash out for much worse causes, they do it in much worse ways, and they are praised for it on this very website among many others.

On the other hand, we have the issue of an employer not only firing a woman for (as they claim) not being polite to a fan. Whether they fired her for that, or to relieve pressure from the misogynistic hate campaign that ensued they were very clear in their statement that they wanted all the hate and blame to rest on the employees they fired rather than the policies (or lack thereof) they had in place dictating what employees are allowed to do on their personal accounts. The president sent a clear message to his employees that they will be thrown under the bus at the first sign of trouble, and the company has no problem actively encouraging those bad actors to direct all their hate at anyone who gets out of line whether it was written in company policy or not.
 

Holundrian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,134
Whats conveniet? He's almost never brought up, there are next to no details on his firing.
It's convenient to not consider his firing but go full on hardcore stupid on how Jessica Price deserved it.

I already mentioned all the various factors several times in this very thread of why people maybe shouldn't be so quick to judge especially given the climate, read them I know how it will irk your cause it pokes holes in the narrative but read them and consider them.
That doesn't mean I endorse the way she acted but that this firing was justified is just straight on lunacy considering everything and that people feel so comfortable is concerning like we haven't learned ANYTHING at all.
 

Iva Demilcol

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,049
Iwatodai Dorm
For the record Jessica Price has been a target of hate movements for at least a year before her recent comments and firing. Several sites and subreddits popular among hate movements like r/Kotakuinaction and Kiwifarms had threads or comments labeling her as a "notorious SJW" when she left the company she previously worked at before Arenanet. The thread on the GW2 subreddit about her joining ArenaNet was locked by moderators after it was derailed by negative comments about her and her "politics" – https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/6oplet/jessica_price_joins_arenanet_narrative_team/

It's simply not accurate to suggest that Jessica only became a target of harassment after she was already fired.

"Nonono, she was mean on the internet, and to top it all she was mean to a streamer!!!

Oh, did you read Kamiya's tweets today? God, I love him so much."
 

Deleted member 5596

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,747
Hey how do all of the people in this thread who think Price deserved to be fired also think Kamiya's tweets are funny?

But Kamiya's is japanese and work culture is different and he's a director and a higher position and he's his own boss, but not really, because he works under someone too, but he created the company .....or something.
 

Deleted member 15326

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,219
I mean this in a nice way: Maybe it would help if you'd listen to some of us?

This isn't like what happened with Allie Rapp and a lot of others; Price would have been disciplined even if GG was still just rotten toe jam in a basement somewhere.

Yes, her being targeted by them is bullshit but you still don't go at your employer's customers/partners like that and expect it to be all good. If it comes out that yes, O'Brien was a scrub toadying for GG then I will eat every crow available but otherwise this is just how businesses run. Firing seems obsessive but without HR info we don't know
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,487
How can people pretend Jessica Price was deservedly fired and not because of hate mob pressure when Peter Fries was also fired for simply defending a colleague.
How is it that the talk about his firing is so low in comparison to Prices.

Really makes you think.

She was almost totally fired because of hate mob pressure. If this shit blew over they'd still have jobs. I feel like anyone pretending that Arenanet wasn't backed into making an action is just naive.
 

HellofaMouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,157
You have enough information stop being disingenuous pretending you aren't ignoring the things I mentioned at convenience.

i have? tell me then,

whats the ANet's policy on the use of an employee's public twitter?
what was Price's relationship was like with her coworkers and managers?
did she have any prior problems with hr? if so, how many? what are the details of those incidents?
what are the details of the conversation that took place in that last meeting? do you have reports on that from both parties?
what kind of options did Mike O'brien and HR consider before going ahead with the termination?
where is peter fries in all of this? did HE have any prior problems internally?

etc etc. we are colossally underinformed when it comes to the internal affairs of a company. especially with a solely reactive media like we have right now.
 

Deleted member 2620

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,491
Hey how do all of the people in this thread who think Price deserved to be fired also think Kamiya's tweets are funny?

I think the argument earlier was largely that Kamiya is high enough up to not get canned, but that's just pointing out the obvious and doesn't at all touch on whether or not it's a good thing that he doesn't have to worry about this sort of situation yet Price does

(fwiw I like Kamiya, and his tweets and Price's are fine)
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,091
I also feel bad for him, you could argue that this whole thing is either Price or Arena's fault but Fries? He literally did nothing.

Pretty much everyone who agreed with Jessica's fire would disagree with Fries' fire.

I would argue he is probably the biggest victim here, especially since no one seemed to care.
I find the Fries firing odd as well. As he didn't antagonize the player base.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
Hey how do all of the people in this thread who think Price deserved to be fired also think Kamiya's tweets are funny?
What if I just understand and "accept" the firing but don't support it? As that I wouldn't have fired her myself, while thinking that the firing wasn't unreasonable because of this behaviour. But yeah, I find some of his Tweets funny some not. And I also said ealier that I wish devs could lash back a bit at gamers when they are out of line (which is often), but I don't think Deroir was out of line in his approach.
 

Zeno

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,150
are bans automated? how would a false report get you banned...obviously a mod thought the report that you were trolling, which you did admit
Mods aren't 100% in lockstep with each other on any forum. One may think a user deserves a ban and another may not think so. The mod may also change their mind.
 

Vela

Alt Account
Banned
Apr 16, 2018
1,818
This isn't like what happened with Allie Rapp and a lot of others; Price would have been disciplined even if GG was still just rotten toe jam in a basement somewhere.

Yes, her being targeted by them is bullshit but you still don't go at your employer's customers/partners like that and expect it to be all good. If it comes out that yes, O'Brien was a scrub toadying for GG then I will eat every crow available but otherwise this is just how businesses run. Firing seems obsessive but without HR info we don't know

You're still talking about the wrong things and not getting it. :) Stop reading this thread and just read this summary by Brendan Keogh, a literal professor in games, about the implications that this has and how it fits into the landscape of the games industry.

https://overland.org.au/2018/07/gam...ds-imposed-on-game-developers/comment-page-1/

It's not about being rude on social media, it is the context that the firing leads into and how they're part of a longer history of women in games and the shitty work conditions that all developers face.
 

Gasoline

Member
Jun 14, 2018
67
The Kamiya thing isn't about whether he should be fired, or could even be fired as the boss of his own company, it's about how no one even bats an eye at his tweets
 

Spyware

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,455
Sweden
What I read from Deroir's tweets was that he wasn't agreeing that a blank slate was the best/only solution for any MMO/RPGs (which she seemingly said, but again, interpretation), and also that he agreed that it was the way to go with the design of the Living World in GW2 specifically. That's just my interpretation tho! How we perceive stuff is very subjective.
I do not agree with his suggested "solution". Dialogue options is a "solution" that gets thrown around a lot and it simply doesn't work well. I would have ignored him or even blocked him if I felt that he was annoying me. But it's easy to say "I would have" or "she should have" in hindsight.

Price's answers felt out of place. I am a woman and have been in games journalism for about 5 years (2009-2014) before I stopped due to all the hate I got, which was even harder to handle due to me seeing that my colleagues (men) got way less hate.
So I understand her but I still think it was stupid, sorry Price. That shit will get you fired in a lot of places, that's just how it is. It's often in the contract.

Fries came and had some thoughts about it all. While I didn't agree that the comment that started this specific situation was due to her being a woman, he was completely right about the state of the world. Women get more hate. I hadn't seen everything he wrote since he quickly deleted it but I was informed of most of it through this video (it's an hour long, a WP thing). What was in the later tweets that I had not seen before was... pretty bad. Completely understandable, but bad.
Sorry Fries, I admire you and have done for ages (I have been a fan of GW since GW1's release) but again, what was said will get you fired from way too many companies. That's just how the world is now.

ArenaNet fired them and the message about it was pretty crude. Was there ever a chance for them to be able to just get a warning and publicly apologize? Did they get that ultimatum and didn't take it? What happened behind closed doors? We have gotten one side of it from one person (afaik) and that's not helping.
I would have liked ArenaNet to state it better, if they "had to" fire them due to the company rules or whatever else happened there. Even tho they tried to make it less of a "spectacle" by just answering in a thread and not going out and announcing it separately, it was still like tooting a horn.

And then there are the effing Gators doing everything they can to hate on her for being a woman, being bolstered by the decision to fire them ("the woman and the cuck", he gets lots of hate too) and keeping on with the hate and threats.

And I'm just so upset. I really liked what these writers were doing for the game(s). I love the game(s). I can understand why ArenaNet might have needed to fire them.
But I am super fucking upset. I am upset that what ANet did bolstered and strengthened the hate groups, I am super upset about all the harassment. This is just a mess.
 

chapel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
298
Again, sexism making women work twice as hard for the same result. In a vacuum yes it does go for all genders. But do you REALLY think the hate mobs would've came for her if she was a man? Fuck no

Thank you! This is what upsets me about this situation. Regardless if you think what she said was okay or not, if it was justifiable for her to be fired or not, the fact that the GW2 community brigaded against her is the reason she was fired ultimately.

I honestly feel that if it were a man in her position posting in a similarly inflammatory way, the community or people that brought the uproar would likely have not made a stink about it.

To me it seems like the male dev was fired as well as a way to "equalize" things so it didn't look like sexism of any kind (not that the company itself is being sexist, but if only she had been fired it could put them in that legal trouble). I don't remember seeing any uproar, or much about his comments, but I could be wrong.
 

Holundrian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,134
i have? tell me then,

whats the ANet's policy on the use of public employee twitters?
what was Price's relationship was like with her coworker and managers?
did she have any prior problems with hr? if so, how many? what are the details of those incidents?
what are details of the conversation that took place in that last meeting? do you have reports on that from both parties?
what kind of option did Mike O'brien and HR consider before going ahead with the termination?
whwere is peter fries in all of this? did HE have any prior problems internally?

etc etc. we are colossally underinformed when it comes to the internal affairs of a company. especially with an overly reactive media like we have right now.

They have none. Price got the green light for her social media on hiring. This was I think in the Kotaku interview she did. If this was really a lie you bet your as Anet would do all to get the message out that she was lying.

She did have prior problems with gamergaters harassing her.

Of course I don't know the details in the meeting and they don't really matter.

They could have told her to take a break from twitter/make it private issued an open statement about how that was appropriate instead of nuke firing to hate mob pressure.

No he hasn't he was a 12 year long employee.

Any more question or you going to continue to push a convenient narrative?
 

newmoneytrash

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,981
Melbourne, Australia
Not saying it's funny or disagreeing with you but isn't Kamiya the founder of Platinum? That means unless he fires himself he can say whatever he want. Not without consequences of course.
The difference isn't the firing, it's the outrage

People in this thread are condemning Price's actions, acting like it's unfathomable that she could possible act in such a way

Kamiya actively acts like an asshole toward his fans for sport and is celebrated for it

I wonder what the difference is
 
Oct 29, 2017
5,354
i have? tell me then,

whats the ANet's policy on the use of public employee twitters?
what was Price's relationship was like with her coworkers and managers?
did she have any prior problems with hr? if so, how many? what are the details of those incidents?
what are details of the conversation that took place in that last meeting? do you have reports on that from both parties?
what kind of option did Mike O'brien and HR consider before going ahead with the termination?
whwere is peter fries in all of this? did HE have any prior problems internally?

etc etc. we are colossally underinformed when it comes to the internal affairs of a company. especially with an overly reactive media like we have right now.

And yet despite all this, ArenaNet found it completely appropriate to air dirty laundry in public and make the firing of two employees as public as possible.

We know nothing about their internal policies but ArenaNet told us anyway. What exactly did they expect us to get out of it? (we already know the answer: to feel better that this mean person got fired, and her other shitty friend who dared defend her).
 

Parenegade

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,589
I implore everyone claiming that he wasn't being condescending to please read this thread with an open mind.



This changed my mind on the subject. I still think calling your clientele, customers, consumer base, playerbase, user base, whatever an asshat on Twitter is wrong. If you bring up the subject of your workplace on your personal Twitter you're crossing a line in a public forum. I do believe that. I do believe her response was wrong.

But I also believe what that gentleman said and I don't think she should have been fired. More than that the way people are responding to this is wrong. It feels like, essentially, people saw one side but not both sides. The two sides aren't equivalent.
 
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