Born in America, it's whatever. I don't place the prosperity of myself over another. Hard to take pride in something that I was born into.
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How much national pride do you have?
- Thread starter shaneo632
- Start date
As in the last thread, you cannot be proud in something that you have done very little to contribute to, it's antithetical to the very concept of genuine pride and is more indicative of hubris. I'm proud of many of the things I've done here in the US, but I'm not proud of the US.
Not quite. I love America and hate Trump as far as hate can go. It's precisely because I love America that I hate Trump.
Yet you completely fail to recognize the abolishment of slavery, the entire Civil Rights Movement, desegregation, and the research showing a continual decline of racist beliefs in this country. We've elected a black president, have people in the Judiciary and at the highest levels of government, in addition to police and educators, who come from all backgrounds and ethnicities. America's in no way perfect and it does suffer an abhorrent history, but it's made progress and continues to do so even though current circumstances would make one believe otherwise.
What is propaganda is to ignore these things completely to further such a narrative as you're doing.
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I left the Middle East in 1997 to move here to the states only to find out it's just like the Middle East only with less money.
Of course our country has done positive things throughout its history. The problem is that our country, its structure, and its society were not founded on those accomplishments. As a result, the entire course of our history has been influenced by fundamentally terrible ideals, and that still remains the case, even today.
Hahahahahaha...this is rich!
So, as I black man, should I be thankful that I'm being terrorized in the streets due to the color of my skin? Should I shriek with sheer delight that our country has 'abolished slavery' in favor of enslaving my black brothers in a corrupt criminal justice system? Should I wax poetic about how disadvantaged minorites are after the integration of races throughout our society?
You can't possibly be serious. And for the record, electing a black president does not absolve our country of its bigoted inclinations. Obama was elected as president of this country IN SPITE of his insurmountable odds, not because our country is no longer racist. All you have to do is look at our current president, and the people who elected him, to know that racism (and sexism) is alive and thriving in the U S of fucking A, and there's nothing about those facts that compel me to have pride in this stupid ass country.
We should remove the concept of nationalism and introduce the concept of "Earthism" if we want to start exploring the stars.
As for me, I was indoctrinated from birth to love and sacrifice for my country (I'm from Vietnam) but sadly I have no such love and no intention to sacrifice.
As for me, I was indoctrinated from birth to love and sacrifice for my country (I'm from Vietnam) but sadly I have no such love and no intention to sacrifice.
I guess it's simply easy for me to focus on idealism and positive aspects of this situation since I have not been victimized in any sense having to do with race or ethnicity. The question in the OP is rather broad, as I can have pride in the positive things that exist in America (at least for my situation).
As for the issue with the foundation of America, that's probably just the limitations of the modern, Catholic School education I have received, especially a 9/11 and post 9/11 grammar school that tried to pound a patriotic ideological foundation into me. We learned about slavery extensively and touched on the Native American massacres (yeah I know it should have been much more than touched on) but were ultimately led to believe that the diversity of America and the innovation throughout history trumps all other aspects no matter who is in power and that is something I maintained through college since it felt good to focus on the positives, especially during times such as this. But when these consistent themes of advancement through the subjugation of others keep arising, it becomes hard to remain positive and I can see where my previous post was ultimately at fault.
I can certainly understand how you'd come to the conclusions that you have, looking at it from your perspective. Unfortunately, the school system failing you is just another symptom of a widely systemic problem. I do appreciate your honesty and transparency, however.
Healthcare in Canada is OK and we have a reputation for being nice people. I guess thats cool but I really dont give a shit.
Always nice to see progressive moves by the federal gov n shit but then we elect Ford in Ontario lol. We are cool sometimes but we fuckin suck too.
Always nice to see progressive moves by the federal gov n shit but then we elect Ford in Ontario lol. We are cool sometimes but we fuckin suck too.
I have that user on ignore so I wouldn't have seen their reply without this post.
Their screen name is night marcher... not surprising their reply, talking about a "narrative"...
Then don't.
Bemoan and belittle all the progress, yes, progress, imperfect it may be, that this country has made through blood and sacrifice simply because every semblance of injustice in the past and present has yet to be eradicated. Things you dismissively brush aside just because you're still seeing (and being) part of these injustices (I can already see the response to this coming a mile away). The facts I posted exist and were accomplished in spite of racism. The Civil Rights Movement succeeded in spite of it. I never stated America wasn't racist or doesn't hold bigoted inclinations, simply that it's made progress.
Seems to me you want to belittle and disrespect the incredible struggle that you and your people went through, and continue to go through, by marginalizing what they've achieved in the past and present simply because there still exists injustice and there remains a lot of work to be done. You may not appreciate or respect their immense accomplishments, but I do, as well as greatly admire them.
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True and I feel like an idiot for not even thinking about that, but the context is totally different then. If god forbid another attack of that scale happened in NYC today, I would imagine there would be people on the right that say "You had it coming libturds for allowing illegals in".
I'm a citizen of Canada and the UK, for Canada some, for the UK very little, but i do find national pride and patriotism to be fairly flawed things to prioritize socially, as it tends to just poison the conversation when it comes to being able to discuss and debate actual issues our nations face.
lol that's not true at all. Tons of people on this site frame their criticism of Trump in patriotic/nationalistic language, talking about how he's a "traitor" who has "betrayed his nation." Liberals seem to love jingo nowadays
As for the OP, I think the United States is vile and I think nationalism is a disease. A country is a piece of land, nothing less, nothing more. We should have solidarity as groups of people and class solidarity, not because of the piece of land you happened to be born on.
To me from your second point, I disagree about nationalism. I think its something that can transcend tribalism or individualism and allow us to reach as a people to a greater place.
Don't know if I'd say I'm proud to be an American, but there's enough I love about it to say I'm happy to be here (for now). Ultimately, I don't really care though.
I'm not trivializing our achievements, I'm saying that they aren't reasons to take pride in our country. I may be grateful of specific milestones that we've made, and appreciate the effort that it took to get there, but our lives are still impacted by far more than these specific achievements and I have to factor in all of that when discussing the state of our country.
Yes, there is progress, but not enough to mitigate the very real concerns we minorites have on a daily basis. When we can go on living our lives as white privileged people do (something that doesn't even require the 'eradication' of bigotry, just sound governance), then maybe then I can have a modicum of adoration for this country. Until then, I'll continue despise this country.
It's really not. It can't transcend tribalism, it is the essence of tribalism. Nationalism is like racism. It is not simply a love of country and culture, but a belief in the superiority of your country and a culture above all others, much as racism is built on a myth of racial superiority. It's arguably useful as an organizing force for oppressed nationalities rising up against colonial masters and arguing for independence and self-determination, but in the context of advanced imperial nations, it is a toxic force. There may be some value in patriotism, which I would distinguish as an admiration of a particular culture and history (although it's not something I have any real truck with), but that's different than nationalism. To me nationalism is distinguished by a belief in superiority. It is a desire to rub how much better you are than everyone else in their face, and it's accompanied by a boisterous, rowdy flag-waving mentality I find absolutely obnoxious.
From The Netherlands and zero. Always found the concept odd and it mostly seems to be people who haven't accomplished much in life or have a low education. At least, that's my experience.
I'm proud of what I achieve personally, not what country I was randomly born in or whatever the hell my forefathers are.
I'm proud of what I achieve personally, not what country I was randomly born in or whatever the hell my forefathers are.
I hear ya point. And I agree that it can be used or harness in nefarious ways. Ignorant folk do use nationalism to blunt what they dont like, but the system itself. if built correctly, can re-mediate those ills. There is problems in every country on the globe. But I think it speaks to more an identity to the World and to its citizens. We are Americans. Etc. etc. Yes there are ills that need to be handled and dealt with as in any country, but our principles allow that redress to happen. This is different from other forms of nationalism where your system is corrupt beyond reprieve. At least in my country we have avenues, systems and balance of power to make those societal changes for the good of the whole. If its superiority, its superiority of the system in which the nation state was built on. Not in who is in office or what the makeup of that nation is. The superiority in fixing things. Creating things. With our citizens so intertwined in our political fabric, you have to react almost in real time or you feel the anger and frustration of the public. In a terrible system, your first redress would be to silence it in any manner of ways. I love our freedom of speech that allows us to express our desires for good or ill. So to me personally, its national pride in our institutes, our checks and balances.
Born, raised, and still residing in the US. Growing up I often felt disconnected to the blind patriotism that was promoted everywhere from schools to sporting events, and due to other events I grew even more disconnected to other self identifying aspects of life. However, something that has always bothered me is that people often treat their nation's symbol(especially here) something akin to a deity while simultaneously turning a blind eye to the suffering of others inside their nation.
If your nation promotes more respect to your nation's symbol than that of your fellow human being, then your nation doesn't deserve respect of it's own.
If your nation promotes more respect to your nation's symbol than that of your fellow human being, then your nation doesn't deserve respect of it's own.
There it is.
There's great reason to take pride in America to me, actually, as the milestones we've made break through hardened barriers and lay new foundation for the birth and growth of what was fought so hard to establish. I think it's important to view the bigger ideals, their struggles and products, rather than predicate the opinion of America on the merits of individualistic experience to their disregard or marginalization, as that lends a myopic perspective, even if they're legitimate grievances on their own.
Just to clarify, this isn't to belittle the hardships minorities still face every day. I realize and acknowledge they exist. Just comparatively to centuries, hell, even decades ago, they've seen improvement precisely due to those milestones that laid new groundwork to stand higher upon (even given their imperfections), and that is something to take pride in when viewed in a larger context.
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Scottish here. Very little for Scotland and none for Britain.
I work away and always dread meeting other scots at work. They always exoect we'll have some kind of bond and always open up with 'Rangers or Celtic?'. If I reply Celtic it's 'ah Catholic' which I am not religiously or hereditary. We don't really share much kinship I think we are always so defensive especially Glaswegians because you can walk 10 minutes in one direction and find some wank who talks different and you'll want to smash each other.
I work away and always dread meeting other scots at work. They always exoect we'll have some kind of bond and always open up with 'Rangers or Celtic?'. If I reply Celtic it's 'ah Catholic' which I am not religiously or hereditary. We don't really share much kinship I think we are always so defensive especially Glaswegians because you can walk 10 minutes in one direction and find some wank who talks different and you'll want to smash each other.
I'd say being impoverished, being imprisoned, and being executed are not 'hardships' worth glossing over in favor of looking at the bigger picture. At that point, the difference in hardship between centuries ago and today become very difficult to discern. They're fucking travesties; cataclysmic events that reflect very poorly upon this country. You cannot experience these things and look at your country in the same way as those who have the privilege to glamorize our state of affairs based on long-term goals and lofty ideals, without ever having to worry about what they're going to eat or if they will live to see the next day.
The Flint, Michigan crisis is a perfect example of how fucked up this country is; 3rd world country conditions in one of the wealthiest countries in the world. This isn't even a problem that needs centuries worth of progress before it can be solved. It just needs governments and institutions who aren't run by shit stains, and enough people in our society who actually give a fuck to dedicate our resources to resolving this issue.
You're not going to convince me that we should take pride in America because "it used to be a hell of a lot worse". You're going to need to do better than that.
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Must have been from one of the few wealthy middle east countries then. GDP purchase power per cspita in the US is higher than all those countries except Qatar, Kuwait and UAE.
The inclination that a non-black person can dictate what a black person should feel about America is laughably absurd.
FFS black people can't even compartmentalize their racial strife without the finger wagging of some outside. But I guess this is par the course for people who are so eager to use Civil Rights as a way to keep present day blacks in check.
I am proud to say I am European. I think it helps put some things into perspective when I ask myself "Why?". I hear about so many problems in some parts of the world and consider myself luckily to be where I am. It's really sad how in many countries, people don't have the same opportunities and I don't want to take my country for granted.
