He just parrots whatever he feels is the general opinion of the "gaming community"
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The controversial ArenaNet firings of Guild Wars 2 writers (READ OP)
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He just parrots whatever he feels is the general opinion of the "gaming community"
Company employee shits on customer in a public forum. Second company employee comes along and says "yep, that's totally ok". Both employees get clipped because engaging with customers is important to the company. Not hard.
I think that's naive.
He legit has nothing to feel bad about
The fact you expect dude to say anything is wild to me.
I think they mean that they don't know what happened behind the scenes, as in, maybe the CEO asked them to apologize or something and they declined or doubled down? Or something along those lines? I think it is a bit weird to straight up fire them. I feel like the CEO would talk to them to try and resolve the issue but it didn't work out.
His twitter statements were a little milquetoast as to be lumped in with the direct harassment from Price, but it's possible that was all it took.
Because I still have not seen a single example of how he should better have explained how he disagreed. Is he not allowed to disagree?
The more I learn my trade and learn how the trades of others' work, the more I'm convinced that someone who has done something for X amount of years is not some how magically smarter than someone else. Does experience matter? YES IT DEFINITELY MATTERS. Hell, I get into conversations all the freaking time with people who have clearly not done a lick of creative work in their life, and argue things that I probably would say in their position. Having experience in creative work helps you understand some of the complexities involved. Game devs definitely have it pretty bad because man I remember a few years ago always getting so frustrated (and heck I still do sometimes, since I don't work in video games specifically) because I just couldn't understand why Devs couldn't do such and such. Now I realize a lot of those things I thought weren't down to greed or laziness or anything like that. It's just the realities of creative work. Like, I'm intimately acquainted with that side of the argument, and if you follow my post history here on Era you'll find me often advocating for developers.
However, devs are still human, and actively struggling with a certain solution, or ignoring a certain solution, or just not thinking of a solution, does happen to anyone. I've been in a number of situations where as the creative, something seems so obvious to me that it should be a certain way, but to the layman, they tell me how it makes them feel and how they think I should do it. Is this frustrating? Yes. Because most of the time the layman is wrong. However, people aren't that dumb. And often the layman has a fresh perspective that I could not have had, even though I know more about what I'm doing than they do.
So as long as the person coming up to me says hey I think you should do this, does so in a polite manner, that's chill. Of course they think I'm wrong. They disagree with me. Duh. There is nothing unusual or bad about someone thinking I'm wrong. That's what disagreeing means.
However, if I start getting something repeated to me a lot, then typically what I will do go, "Yeah you'd think that would be obvious wouldn't you? Well that's cuz it is. And I tried it, and it didn't work. Here's why."
Because I get that, to them, it seems so obvious. They can't comprehend how I would have overlooked that obvious thing.
I sympathize with that because I'm guilty of it myself, so instead, I explain to them why I have thought of that. Typically they react kind of sheepishly, but always they will acknowledge what I said. I've made them smarter, and they've begun to learn that thinks aren't as obvious as they think. I've acknowledged their frustration and their viewpoint and their truth, and I've explained to them what they don't know.
You know how I know that works? Because it happened to me...
This is why I get frustrated when you tie this to sexism because I ...really don't think it is. I think it's due to a guy thinking he's figured out something which took some thought -- because for him it did, and I bet you he's spent a lot of time thinking about it. I mean, dude my theory here is borne out perfectly if you go and look at the stream excerpt on an earlier page. The guy loves understanding how things work -- trying to help on something he's passionate about. The way he speaks leads me to believe he would do this to anyone. I see no ridiculous oversimplifcations or condescention. Just someone who thinks he knows what he is talking about. There is a massive difference. He's not talking down to her. He is trying to talk equally with her.
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Don't know much about the GW2devs or community since I don't play the games involved but when I think about the scenario and replace the lady involved with Kamiya for example I think the firing would be super unwarranted.
Kamiya and her may differ a lot in what they do but Kamiya is often a jerk to people on twitter and it can be funny but I don't always like it as sometimes he goes way overboard, often times it's the fans that go way, way overboard.
If he got fired over some tweets I'd be really upset even if he was being a jerk because I don't want him to stop making games.
I'm sure there are some that feel the same about Price and her work, even if she came off as a jerk. She's got her reasons, maybe I don't agree with how she worded it but eh, if I'm willing to give Kamiya the benefit of the doubt I should do the same for her.
Kamiya and her may differ a lot in what they do but Kamiya is often a jerk to people on twitter and it can be funny but I don't always like it as sometimes he goes way overboard, often times it's the fans that go way, way overboard.
If he got fired over some tweets I'd be really upset even if he was being a jerk because I don't want him to stop making games.
I'm sure there are some that feel the same about Price and her work, even if she came off as a jerk. She's got her reasons, maybe I don't agree with how she worded it but eh, if I'm willing to give Kamiya the benefit of the doubt I should do the same for her.
The litmus test I was taught at business school (meh) is it is sexism if gender influences the conversation.
Did Price's gender have any evident (whether intended or accidental) influence on the comments made to her?
No. She could be a man and the conversation would likely have been identical.
I fail to see how this refers to a public outing towards a paying customer and the public face of a company. your example could be ignored because of shitty management. the one we are all talking about had everything publicly to the face of shareholders, customers, and various other parties within the industry
Considering she has had a misogynist hate mob following for quite a while, this is patently wrong.
Guy posted a well reasoned response and she went off for no reason and it became a PR mess for her employer. If you do that at any job you're going to get fired. Seems pretty straight forward.
It happens all the time and really, most corporations wouldn't put up with how Price comported herself to a customer. Especially where easily replaced employees are involved.
Most in this thread haven't worked professional jobs. Otherwise these ideas would be self evident. Shoot, even some professsions punish you for things you do that have nothing to do with your work at all.
Is it over the top to fire him. Probably. But not her. Her behavior would get her fired from most companies in the US. Not because she is female...but because she is an asshole.
Not only are several posters defending her saying she did nothing wrong, but at least one guy laughed and cheer about the harassment Deroir has been getting from GG AND people blaming him for getting Price fired.
But she wasn't having a conversation with a hate mob. It was a YouTube partner for the game she works on.
I work for a company owned by state government who actively promotoes pushing back against rude and hostile customers so yeah
It *will* be fun, but not for the reasons you think
Without the hate mob, the conversation would not have blown up the way it did, and it would have either been completely ignored or solved by simply talking to her
It's extremely difficult to be courteous when you have to deal with this kind of behavior constantly, and ultimately they have to make their boundaries clear. There's really no reason to try to claim innocence in public after being told that if he really wanted to respect her opinion.
Sure, she's too aggro on Twitter and way too mad online all the time (she attacked MoveOn.org as helping fascists or something because of RVSPing for a protest or... something).
But lots of people are suuuuper aggro on Twitter and don't get hate mobs made about them.
I don't understand how people can defend what she said. The original person who replied to her was nothing but respectful with his tweets. She's the one that took it to a place where that poster never intended it to go.
That being said I don't think she should've been immediately fired. But you don't talk to your community like that
That being said I don't think she should've been immediately fired. But you don't talk to your community like that
before this she appeared to have some GG fucks messing with her, which makes it understandable the way she responded being in that mindset for a while.
If Kamiya called someone an asshat..
"There goes Kamiya again lol good one bro. "
When Jessica Price does it..
"Omg can you believe she used that word? She didn't even censor it. We all know that ***hat is one of those hateful slurs that you have to cover up with asterisks."
Deroir was rude and hostile
You see nerds, that's what you get for liking things and engaging in public conversations about those things in a reasonable and deferential manner, learn well you worms
Let's have a look a what Price said in her tweet thread.
Price gives a very cool insight at what's her work (was :/ )on GW2 and how she tackles the hard task of writing the PC(Player's character)
Her idea is that giving a character actual personality traits (and this is important) and how the character responds to other NPC's is not a good choice for MMO (or, this is important CRPG) to make it compelling. Her argument is basically that choices are bad, because if you follow the Bioware book of main character writing, "bad" "neutral" and "good" (for example), some people would choose bad, but they might feel that sometimes the character is not bad enough or he's to cruel. Basically you can't content people with (this is important) character choices because people would feel alinenated with their own idea of what's his character "is" or rather, what they want their character "be".
She then goes on quite detail and she, and the team, process of writing the PC on GW2. I'm not gonna explain it, but it's quite cool (I feel FFXIV does something similar to at least some extent)
OK, is quite a long and interesting read for a twitter post.
Let's look at Deroid
You know, I'm very respectful of Deroid's work as a streamer. He's a great GW2 player, but I feel he's slightly wrong with this piece of trash he calls opinion, because he clearly has zero read comprehension skills.
1) He says the problem lies in the narrative they created and how constrained it is
Let's remember the whole point of her thread is how was purposely created that way. If that's not telling her outright she is not doing right her job I don't know what it is.
2) He says that Price is limited on how she can construct the personality of the PC.
The point of Price is that they try to SUGGEST the PC has a personality, is not much as constructing a personality, but giving the player a somewhat unfinished canvas, a base, where the player can fill the gaps with his own imagination.
3) Then he says that the solution to the problem (which is her whole design philosophy on writing a PC) is just as easy as having branching options.
Let's remember that Price expends several tweets explaining how giving players options to express themselves is not ideal and that's why she is trying to carefully construct the PC as a canvas the player can insert himself into (The PC is who you imagine them to be)
So basically Deroid ignored all Price arguments, selfinserted in her own dissertation of how to write a PC for a MMO and outright tells her, she's wrong while clearly not understanding or caring about what was she saying.
She's goes a great length to explain the process of how she writes a PC and he ignores all these comments and arguments and goes a total opposite way of what the thread was. Making it clear he didn't really understood or cared about what she wrote and just posting what he things is the right way.
This has a name.....and is not constructive criticism.
yesm it fucking is
I'm still not saying he's evil, mansplaining can happen unconciously and dosn't mean it's done maliciously.
I really dunno who this Kamiya guy is but do you have an example of him calling someone a mansplaining asshat (or something similar) who by most standards wasn't being one?
I sympathise with her. It's obviously not easy. I'm very lucky not to have experienced what she has experienced, whether it's justified or not is irrelevant. But she does have at least two responsibilities handed to her by society and duty, and that's to respect her immediate gaming family and to be a shining beacon for female gamemakers. In what may have been a regrettable moment, she failed both. And here we are.
One of Kamiya's most famous posts is responding to someone and saying "why are you so unintelligent?" (paraphrased, actual tweet is less kind than this)
That MoveOn thing was them asking people to RSVP for a protest so they could forward that info to police. 1000% worthy of criticism, especially given police reactions to left-leaning public protests. Maybe actually educate yourself on the topic at hand before you decide to criticize someone for something you know nothing about.
Hey that's not what I said, but thanks!
He was undeniably condesceding, though, which is rude. I work in a field where customers condescend about business practices all of the time and are met with firm dismissal
I'm saying it was an example.
No, it is not like that at all. Literally not at all. Because cops don't just pull over white dudes and shoot them. Fans do accost male and female game developers both with the same kind of criticism. Deroir's comments are literally the same type of criticism that would be and has been leveled at male developers. I have observed it thousands of times. So have many of the other people in this thread. So until you can provide a clear distinction in the behavior, you will not be convincing anyone.
The things that convinced me of police brutality towards the black community were many significant incidents of cops acting one way towards a black person that they never, ever would have towards a white person. In this situation, we have devs who repeatedly come under fire, both male and female, with these kinds of comments. It's not just one or two. You're trying to downplay my experience because it doesn't jive with your narrative. You need to keep it small so it can just be an anomaly. No dude. Pay any attention to male developers. Maybe follow some on twitter, and pay attention to how many asshats they encounter. Hint: It's very, very often.
Again, I am not saying that women don't face ridiculous criticism or condescension because they are women, but I still have not seen how this instance is that. Just lots of people stating it is because it was "condescending." Until you demonstrate to me that this kind of thing would not have been said to a male developer, it remains your conjecture.
Haha how is this Trumpian
How do you read any of that and think that sure sounds like old Donald Trump!
You wouldn't be invoking Trump's name as a way to dismiss something out of hand, would you?
omg, no it's not. The police in general in America are bad but you generally want police to know how many people show up to a protest to both be able to defend the protest and to stop any potential mob behavior.
This behavior is completely reasonable from MoveOn.org, jesus christ.
Price's friends (Red Rose Twitter) have also decided that the idea of police in general should not exist which is really fucking stupid and seems to ignore that the police are fine in Britain and other places and that police as an idea must exist for crimes like robbery, murder, and rape to be punished.
You get people to RSVP for a protest because psychologically it motivates them to actually attend the protest and helps with the protest numbers.
Firing is on the more extreme end of responses to a customer relations issue, yes. I still think it's justifiable considering the situation. An employer isn't obligated to hold onto someone who embarrassed them that badly.
Then she should have made her boundaries clear...that's not the same as attacking someone...
I don't think she embarrassed them that badly at all. It was maybe a small headache. But they somehow managed to turn it into a migraine.
Uh, okay I just want to chime in and say do not support yongyea. He has no problem twisting and manipulating facts for a good story.
Not much of anything, just giving an example of Price being really aggro online and having to defend my example.
Apparently they did. And I can't really say they're wrong. Her reaction was truly over the top.
I don't understand how any of what you wrote is an example of her being aggressive. Because her friends have politics you don't agree with?
I can.
In my company, if I were to post saying I was an employee and went on to disrespect people, I could be fired. Even if I were Fries, I could be fired. That's just cold company policy. I'm replaceable, I have little doubt (though I think it would take some time) that they could hire someone to fill in my position.
I can also say that I think her response hurts feminism. Why? It's a "boy who cried wolf" sort of thing; if she says that this is due sexism and it's not (and I don't think it is) it sullies her future credibility, and to some extent, sullies the rest of the movement because people can now point to her the next time someone else calls wolf and say "eh, it was fake last time."
Um, why is she supposed to be a shining beacon for female game makers? That wasn't part of her job responsibilities or description. Game dev is stressful enough as-is; having to act like a role model on top of that is just extremely unhealthy.
My example was her calling MoveOn.org fascist helpers for pretty benign and reasonable behavior that every organization does.
The later post is just explaining why the behavior from MoveOn.org is reasonable and fine and then adding on a minor rant about how stupid the discourse has been about this subject.
ITT: all women have to be perfect at all times or it will destroy their livelihoods and the entire concept of feminism
She was calling a site that forwarded information to the police fascist. That's hardly aggresive or ever than controversial
If you think that's an example of aggression you're gonna lose your mind when you hear what people have been saying about the government
Even if that may be true, (I only watch a few of his videos. I tend to try and form my own opinion).
Your usage of spoilers is ridiculous
Derior suggested that you could use the template that was in GW in the branching options not to change the narrative but to expand the canvas by making those non consequentials changes unique to the PC.
Derior didn't ignore price argument , from the starts he disagree with the premise and offer an alternative.
The answer could have been : "this isn't how our team approches the problem" , "this doesn't work given the dev constraints" , "im unfamilliar to that style" or literrally anything else.
The mansplaining argument to justify her going on the offensive still baffles me
Sure, he's allowed to personally disagree. He can disagree all he wants quietly and to himself.
If he wants more information, he can ask questions, and, and this is very important, make sure to phrase them in a way in which he doesn't suggest she's wrong or bad at her job (saying "I believe the problem lies in the constraints of the Living Story's design" to the person who designed it). She doesn't know him from Adam, so he is, in fact, a rando, and if he wants her to engage, the bare minimum is to ask questions and avoid condescension, and he does neither. She gives him a brushback to define the limits of what's acceptable engagement coming from a rando, which is a perfectly fine thing to do when some person you literally don't know decides to start making demands of your time and to wanting you to justify a design you've spent weeks if not months working on.
In short, if he wants to engage, he needs to engage remembering that she is the expert and he's the one asking for labor on her part. Instead, he expects a dialogue among equals, which is wholly inappropriate.