The repro cart epidemic, can it be stopped?

Velocity:Design:Comfort · Jul 11, 2018

First of all let me say this is not about people offering repro carts, patched roms, translations, etc, etc on a cart and selling it to buyers aware of this. If you want to have some in your collection, feel free to knowingly buy them. Hell I have some and I'm not ashamed.

What this is about, though, is the huge and growing repro market that ostensibly are sold as legitimate carts. On eBay and the like these sellers sell thousands of fake cartridges and no one goes after them. Why do vendors allow these? Now I've started to see them at cons, retro game swap meets (and in game stores locally) and the like. This is plaguing GB-GBA and NeS - N64 collecting and I am sure people would be making fakes for genesis if it was more popular.

Mostly I want real carts in my collection, partly because a) they are constructed better, generally, and in the case of Crystal on GBC for example are the correct unique color and b) they are not at the risk of locking up or crashing as I've seen and heard of happening.

Deleted member 1413 · Jul 11, 2018

Aren't selling/buying reproduction carts super illegal anyways? It's worse than just stealing a rom.

Not sure how you'd stop a scammer. If you buy from eBay or amazon you may be able to demand a refund if you can tell it's illegitimate

miraimatt · Jul 11, 2018

Only the production of new, official, and indistinguishable cartridges would stop it. (Maybe not even that.)

Deleted member 34949 · Jul 11, 2018

It's made getting GBA and DS (GBC isn't so bad, since GBC fakes are super easy to spot) games online a major pain in the ass. Especially for Pokemon games on those platforms.

Toad King · Jul 11, 2018

This is only an issue because the retro game market dug its own grave when it drove up prices for old games like crazy. Once that happened scammers jumped on it for easy profit.

The only way to stop it is for prices to drop low enough that repro carts stop being profitable, and good luck on that happening.

SirFritz · Jul 11, 2018

I really hate how some people act like these are some legitimate thing when they're literally just bootlegs. Bootlegs with a premium price. Talking about mother 3 repros and the like.

OrangeNova · Jul 11, 2018

Honestly I have a lot of friends who enjoy playing retro games, and like purchasing repros because they're affordable.

Basileus777 · Jul 11, 2018

Repros have their place. But selling them as originals is just fraud.

BassForever · Jul 11, 2018

People scamming with fake carts of real games is a very real problem especially for GBA games. As illegal as repos for fan translations, rom hacks, and prototypes are I can't really get too upset at their existence. In our modern day where we have stuff like Limited Run games giving us stuff like night trap remastered a physical release on all consoles I wish some developers would embrace fan hacks and translations and do limited official runs of fan translated or patched stuff.

Sagadego17 · Jul 11, 2018

what about official licensed repro cart of 3rd party games for snes?

Chessguy1 · Jul 11, 2018

its only recently n64 repros have become profitable and they are EVERYWHERE now -- very annoying.

i can only imagine how bad it is for pokemon games.

Deleted member 14636 · Jul 11, 2018

Velocity:Design:Comfort · Jul 11, 2018

k701 said:
I think the problem the OP has with them is telling them appart. In the case of official repros, they are more like official re releases since they tend to have different boxes and cart colors/ labels. So there is no chance of it being confused with the original release.

OP, what I recommend you do is buy some screwdrivers and look at the PCBs of what you buy. Repros always have different PCBs than original releases. In the case of people using original PCBs and soldering new ROMs, you can still tell because they don't make the same kind of EPROMs anymore, so some pins need to be routed from the new EPROMs to the old PCBs. The only ones that you can't do this with is DS, since I dont think there's any way to open them while still keeping it collectible, and I don't know how accurate they currently are in respect to their outward appearance.

There are DS ones now?

I unfortunately have had to look at the board and send carts back. But reporting them doesn't do shit.

TheThirstyPrisoner · Jul 11, 2018

I hate the idea of anyone other than the original devs./property owners profiting from these games.
but
I love the idea of the collecting market being devastated.

If it was truly a serious issue, virtual consoles would likely be taken more seriously. If there is no outlet to buy these games at reasonable prices, what are people supposed to do?

TheBeardedOne · Jul 11, 2018

I didn't realize that people were doing this until the other month, when I met someone who is co-owner of a retro gaming booth at a local flea market. She told me that she had some guy come up to her stall and try to sell her a bunch of rare N64 games that he was very proud of. They were all reproductions though.

Deleted member 14636 · Jul 11, 2018

MattWilsonCSS · Jul 11, 2018

TheThirstyPrisoner said:
If it was truly a serious issue, virtual consoles would likely be taken more seriously. If there is no outlet to buy these games at reasonable prices, what are people supposed to do?

I think we all know the answer to this question.

Velocity:Design:Comfort · Jul 11, 2018

TheThirstyPrisoner said:
I hate the idea of anyone other than the original devs./property owners profiting from these games.
but
I love the idea of the collecting market being devastated.

If it was truly a serious issue, virtual consoles would likely be taken more seriously. If there is no outlet to buy these games at reasonable prices, what are people supposed to do?

It isn't devastating the collecting market. Its flooding it with games collectors don't want, as they want real copies. They're not the ones duped by resellers. It's harming the people who want to play buy the rules.

Lady Bow · Jul 11, 2018

You just need a special bit from Ebay to open the cartridges to check them; they're really cheap. You can also unscrew it using the 'bic pen method.'

Repros have really gotten out of hand for N64 games since early last year.

Example of a Fake Board:

Real Board:

MrNelson · Jul 11, 2018

Really all you can do is start carrying a gamebit screwdriver with you if you go to a con or retro shop planning to buy and learn how to tell a genuine cart from a counterfeit.

TheThirstyPrisoner said:
I love the idea of the collecting market being devastated.

Why?

Velocity:Design:Comfort · Jul 11, 2018

MrNelson said:
Really all you can do is start carrying a gamebit screwdriver with you if you go to a con or retro shop planning to buy and learn how to tell a genuine cart from a counterfeit.

Why?

I will probably. The only thing is I don't think a lot of sellers would be happy with you opening up their product just while browsing (I'm not serious enough to be going for the BIG tickets which I would imagine would be different). But then I guess it's like, what do they have to hide?

MrNelson · Jul 11, 2018

Velocity:Design:Comfort said:
I will probably. The only thing is I don't think a lot of sellers would be happy with you opening up their product just while browsing (I'm not serious enough to be going for the BIG tickets which I would imagine would be different). But then I guess it's like, what do they have to hide?

Most aren't going to care, just as long as you aren't opening carts without saying anything to them. I've even asked retro stores to open carts if I feel that it looked suspect, and I've never had a clerk object.

Mzo · Jul 11, 2018

Make them indistinguishable from the originals. I'd love for it all to come crashing down.

I'm in it for the love of games. I would happily go back to all my games being worthless instead of this ridiculoua collectors' market.

Velocity:Design:Comfort · Jul 11, 2018

Lady Bow said:
I curated all 296 Nintendo 64 PCB pics from North America so you can easily spot out fakes, guide here:
http://s9.zetaboards.com/Nintendo_64_Forever/topic/7464768/1/

You just need a special bit from Ebay to open the cartridges to check them; they're really cheap. You can also unscrew it using the 'bic pen method.'

Repros have really gotten out of hand for N64 games since early last year.

Example of a Fake Board:

Real Board:

Doing God's work, thank you.

DeuceGamer · Jul 11, 2018

eBay doesn't want to stop it. It makes them money. I've flagged thousands of items and yet those sellers continue to sell the same items.

I think it will take the feds stepping in for anything to happen.

Velocity:Design:Comfort · Jul 11, 2018

Mzo said:
Make them indistinguishable from the originals. I'd love for it all to come crashing down.

I'm in it for the love of games. I would happily go back to all my games being worthless instead of this ridiculoua collectors' market.

Impossible. Again, you are only hurting people who are not aware of this happening. No collector wants these.

New Fang · Jul 11, 2018

Toad King said:
This is only an issue because the retro game market dug its own grave when it drove up prices for old games like crazy. Once that happened scammers jumped on it for easy profit.

The only way to stop it is for prices to drop low enough that repro carts stop being profitable, and good luck on that happening.

You word this like people are conspiring to drive up prices. Pro Tip: the prices only go up when people pay them, and if people are paying them that means that's what they're worth.

mantis23 · Jul 11, 2018

Lady Bow said:
I curated all 296 Nintendo 64 PCB pics from North America so you can easily spot out fakes, guide here:
http://s9.zetaboards.com/Nintendo_64_Forever/topic/7464768/1/

You just need a special bit from Ebay to open the cartridges to check them; they're really cheap. You can also unscrew it using the 'bic pen method.'

Repros have really gotten out of hand for N64 games since early last year.

Oh wow! I have to thank you so much for putting this together. Those pictures came in SO handy for me as I was finishing up my N64 set last year. I would often use them to check games I was about to buy. I can attest to the rampancy of repro carts being passed off as real. I started to notice it getting really bad in late 2016 when some of the N64 values started to shoot up quickly. Games like Super Bowling or Stunt Racer went from $30 games to $100+ games and seemingly overnight ebay was flooded with fakes. It takes so much fun out of collecting when you have to worry about every game being a repro.

Even worse is that now the magic price point for these fakes to be worthwhile for the pirates seems to be dropping. It used to be they would only worry about the high priced games like Sculptors Cut, Bomberman 2nd Attack, or Worms. Recently I have seen repros of common games like Mario 64. It's crazy to think that the effort to do that is worth it for a game that would retail for $25.

MrNelson · Jul 11, 2018

Mzo said:
I'm in it for the love of games. I would happily go back to all my games being worthless instead of this ridiculoua collectors' market.

So what's stopping you from buying the counterfeits now? They're already worthless.

Mzo · Jul 12, 2018

How about indistiguishable reproductions of old video game boxes? That would be the best.

There aren't that many collectors out there raising the prices. Tons of scalpers manipulating the market and holding games for ransom, though. If the market is saturated and the average player is buying their fake games cheap, the market stops being so profitable and the scalpers that never gave a shit about the hobby move on to the next profitable scam.

Mzo · Jul 12, 2018

MrNelson said:
So what's stopping you from buying the counterfeits now? They're already worthless.

The facts that everdrives exist and that I have almost everything I want from the old days.

MrNelson · Jul 12, 2018

Mzo said:
The facts that everdrives exist and that I have almost everything I want from the old days.

So you already own all those games you've got on those Everdrives?

DeuceGamer · Jul 12, 2018

Lady Bow said:
I curated all 296 Nintendo 64 PCB pics from North America so you can easily spot out fakes, guide here:
http://s9.zetaboards.com/Nintendo_64_Forever/topic/7464768/1/

You just need a special bit from Ebay to open the cartridges to check them; they're really cheap. You can also unscrew it using the 'bic pen method.'

Repros have really gotten out of hand for N64 games since early last year.

Example of a Fake Board:

Real Board:

I've used that several times, so I thank you.

Edit: I honestly believe that eBay is complicit in intentionally allowing bootleg items to be sold. It's a shame because in the early days they were super strict about bootleg items. Wish there was something we could do, but it seems most collectors have kinda given in to accept it :(

SoH · Jul 12, 2018

Kind of adjacent to what you are talking about OP, but as a more positive example of this stuff, special shout out to infinite NES lives whose whole mission statement is they produce carts for Homebrew games that use all new parts so as to not sacrifice any original games.

http://www.infiniteneslives.com/

Can see all the details of the various carts they are capable of producing here. Very cool, imo.

http://www.infiniteneslives.com/nessupplies.php

Mzo · Jul 12, 2018

MrNelson said:
So you already own all those games you've got on those Everdrives?

I'm sorry if this is confusing. The few things I would still want have been priced way past the point where it would be fiscally irresponsible towards my family for me to purchase. We're talking maybe a dozen or so titles versus the 1k plus I own. I would, without hesitation, rather all games, including the many I own, be nearly worthless like they used to be so I could still buy them. I did originally buy some reproduction games (including the impressive PCE Works releases,) but I soon realized I'd be better off buying an Everdrive instead and ended up giving them away. That way I can also play fan translation patches. Turns out what I really value is playing on the original hardware. Everything else is nice, but not a necessity.

If there's anything else you need to know hit me up and I'll do my best to clarify.

i-Jest · Jul 12, 2018

Seven Force said:
It's made getting GBA and DS (GBC isn't so bad, since GBC fakes are super easy to spot) games online a major pain in the ass. Especially for Pokemon games on those platforms.

DS Pokemon games, generations 4 and 5, are getting hit hard by pirated fakes and the like. There are very few DS games I want to own, but the possibility of getting a fake is a very real concern for me.

Linkhero1 · Jul 12, 2018

Lady Bow said:
I curated all 296 Nintendo 64 PCB pics from North America so you can easily spot out fakes, guide here:
http://s9.zetaboards.com/Nintendo_64_Forever/topic/7464768/1/

You just need a special bit from Ebay to open the cartridges to check them; they're really cheap. You can also unscrew it using the 'bic pen method.'

Repros have really gotten out of hand for N64 games since early last year.

Example of a Fake Board:

Real Board:

Do you have one for SNES? I bought a ton of SNES games off of ebay. I'd love to open them up and confirm.

blizzardjesus · Jul 12, 2018

It's only going to get bigger and the quality will slowly make them indistinguishable. and I'm going to keep buying them.

Velocity:Design:Comfort said:
Impossible. Again, you are only hurting people who are not aware of this happening. No collector wants these.

Yes I do, when Harvest Moon snes is $200+ and I get get it from China for less than $10. Prices have gotten so crazy that having a a bootleg for a fraction of the price is well worth it.

Velocity:Design:Comfort · Jul 12, 2018

blizzardjesus said:
It's only going to get bigger and the quality will slowly make them indistinguishable. and I'm going to keep buying them.

Yes I do, when Harvest Moon snes is $200+ and I get get it from China for less than $10. Prices have gotten so crazy that having a a bootleg for a fraction of the price is well worth it.

Like is mentioned a few times earlier, I was referring to when it is sold to you unknowingly as real, but is not. Not voluntarily. And I should have said, *with some exceptions.

leesmapman · Jul 12, 2018

I wish they made a repro cart for Trails in the Sky SC for PSP

Robin · Jul 12, 2018

A reminder: advocating piracy is against our terms of service, repro carts are piracy.

MaverickHunterX · Jul 12, 2018

I do like the idea of official reprints, like the recent Data East collections, or how Return of Double Dragon is getting an American release. Part of me hope for a return of something like how Majesco rereleased a ton of Genesis and SNES games back in the late 1990s. I should have grabbed an extra Contra 3, TMNT4, and Castlevania 4

blizzardjesus said:
It's only going to get bigger and the quality will slowly make them indistinguishable. and I'm going to keep buying them.

Yes I do, when Harvest Moon snes is $200+ and I get get it from China for less than $10. Prices have gotten so crazy that having a a bootleg for a fraction of the price is well worth it.

This is the thing I don't get. I understand copyrights cost money and the like, but how the hell can pirates like these, and people on Etsy sell this stuff for dirt cheap, and yet, the Return of Double Dragon is going to be $50?

DeuceGamer · Jul 12, 2018

Linkhero1 said:
Do you have one for SNES? I bought a ton of SNES games off of ebay. I'd love to open them up and confirm.

There is a different site that covers SNES boards. Enjoy ;)

http://snescentral.com/gameindex.php

blizzardjesus said:
It's only going to get bigger and the quality will slowly make them indistinguishable. and I'm going to keep buying them.

Yes I do, when Harvest Moon snes is $200+ and I get get it from China for less than $10. Prices have gotten so crazy that having a a bootleg for a fraction of the price is well worth it.

I still don't agree with this and still have a problem with it. Even if you are aware they are fake, eventually those are going to end up back in circulation and likely and unknowing buyer will end up with them without realizing it.

It's getting to the point where it's not just the expensive games as well. There are commons that have repros and I don't understand why anyone would buy an illegal reproduction of an item at all, especially for "collecting" and especially when they can have the real thing for just a little more.

Also, just because you want them doesn't mean everyone else does and since they are illegal eBay should not allow the sale of these items.

Velocity:Design:Comfort said:
Like is mentioned a few times earlier, I was referring to when it is sold to you unknowingly as real, but is not. Not voluntarily. And I should have said, *with some exceptions.

As I mentioned above even if the buyer is aware there are still multiple reasons why I am still against these being sold.

I understand the prices are kinda stupid for some of these games, but there are legal alternatives such as the Virtual Console.

These are illegal and really should not be allowed at all, but that eBay allows them is really shameful in my opinion. Like the feds that end up busting Flea Markets for counterfeit goods like purses, I hope one day they will crack down on eBay and clean it up of all the counterfeits that they allow (games or other items).

The repro cart epidemic, can it be stopped?

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