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Erik Twice

Member
Nov 2, 2017
685
Hmmmmmm no, Dworkin was a radical feminist not a real feminist.
Feminism is not a monolith. Radical feminists are as "real" as liberal feminists, anarchist feminists or any other kind. And given they were the ones that created the concepts of Patriarchy, of the abolition of gender roles, of female objectification and were key in legalizing abortion, one would be very hard pressed in arguing they are not "real feminists".

Which brings us to this:
The crusaders can say they where Christian, but they were not.
I don't think your categorization works if not even Popes and Saints count as Christians. You should consider if holding whole movements to these unreal standards to determine membership in a group is something that makes sense or simply an old fallacy.
 

We_care_a_lot

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,157
Summerside PEI
Feminism, like all social movements, have bad parts and bad actors and cannot be purely defined in positive terms. Racism, and transphobia have been important parts of the movement regardless of whether they were bigoted or wrong. "Real" feminism has often had bigotry in it, as painful as it may be to accept.

Saying that Dworkin was not a feminist because she was a bigot is not unlike claiming that the Crusaders were not Christian because they killed people and otherwise acted in an unchristian manner. It may make sense on some level but it presents such a distorted view of the actual movement that it becomes whitewashing.

Sadly, real feminism has not always been inclusive. It has often been bigoted and ugly and it's important to keep that in mind to fight it instead of choosing the convenient, criticism-deflecting lie that the only real feminists are the good ones. That lie won't help anyone,much less the targets of bigotry.
It's not lie.

You're looking at the bad faith actors of the movement and somehow extrapolating than they were completely unchallenged by their contemporaries for their shitty views.

That's not the case and if you think it is then you gotta examine your own shit, not call me a liar
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
This is a bit like saying that you can't be a Democrat and a racist. That is historically not true and currently it would mean going against a core position of the Democrat Party but said person can still identify with the party and the rest of it's positions. If you want to define everything as black and white then yes, TERF cannot be considered Feminists nowadays.

That's a bit silly, because "don't be racist" isn't inherently a core tenant of being a Democrat. It's heavily implied, sure, but there are tons of aspects of being a Democrat that have nothing to do with race. OTOH, a person who decrees that some women are not equally women or not women at all holds a viewpoint that goes against the basest concept of feminism.
 

Erik Twice

Member
Nov 2, 2017
685
You're looking at the bad faith actors of the movement and somehow extrapolating than they were completely unchallenged by their contemporaries for their shitty views.
Nobody has said they were completely unchallenged. I'm just saying that bigotry has existed in feminism and has often been an important part of it. It has not always been an inclusive movement, specially towards transexual women and specially not several decades ago.

Even today you can find many articles going over these issues, hence "white feminism" and TERFs. It is why we have this thread, because there's an issue within the movement, even today.

I didn't mean to call you a liar, though, so I apologize. I simply think that this idea that feminism has always been inclusive of transexual people is not true, because there was considerable backlash from within the movement and still is.
 

We_care_a_lot

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,157
Summerside PEI
Nobody has said they were completely unchallenged. I'm just saying that bigotry has existed in feminism and has often been an important part of it. It has not always been an inclusive movement, specially towards transexual women and specially not several decades ago.

Even today you can find many articles going over these issues, hence "white feminism" and TERFs. It is why we have this thread, because there's an issue within the movement, even today.

I didn't mean to call you a liar, though, so I apologize. I simply think that this idea that feminism has always been inclusive of transexual people is not true, because there was considerable backlash from within the movement and still is.
'Bigotry has often been an important part of feminism'


No.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,659
Hull, England
I don't understand much about this at all but why are these TERF so upset with Trans women, what is it that they see as a threat? Are TERF haters of anyone who is not considered a women in their eyes.
 

Erik Twice

Member
Nov 2, 2017
685
'Bigotry has often been an important part of feminism'


No.
Yes, sadly it has. Much of the suffragate's political campaigning was based on racism, not only on the fact that they were women but also white and hence deserved as many rights if not more than black men had. The right to vote in the United States was won on the back of "I'll help you keep the black man down" as much as it did on women's own rights.

Much of the ideology of the second wave is also inherently bigoted, even if it doesn't seem so at first glance. The transphobia of radical feminists is not an accident, it's the inevitable result of much of their ideology and so on, how they view sexes and men.

Like all social movements, feminism hasn't been as good as it could be. Even though it's probably one of the better ones and probably the best large one, it has had flaws and has ocasionally dabbled into bigotry.

Really "Feminism has often had issues with transphobia and racism" is not really that controversial of a position. Many feminists themselves acknowledge it and have extensively written about the topic, because they know it's import to fight agaisnt bigotry from within.
 
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Common Knowledge

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,251
I don't understand much about this at all but why are these TERF so upset with Trans women, what is it that they see as a threat? Are TERF haters of anyone who is not considered a women in their eyes.

It's just good old transphobia wrapped up in a feminist blanket. That trans women aren't "real women", therefore, they don't have a right to identify with the feminist movement or associate with the societal issues women face.

TERFS are idiots.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,659
Hull, England
It's just good old transphobia wrapped up in a feminist blanket. That trans women aren't "real women", therefore, they don't have a right to identify with the feminist movement or associate with the societal issues women face.

TERFS are idiots.
Thank you for the reply and explaining to me. I feel nothing but contempt for these TERF people and hope that they will be exposed for the trans phobic pieces of trash that they are.
 
OP
OP
FeistyBoots

FeistyBoots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,506
Southern California
Feminism, like all social movements, have bad parts and bad actors and cannot be purely defined in positive terms. Racism, and transphobia have been important parts of the movement regardless of whether they were bigoted or wrong. "Real" feminism has often had bigotry in it, as painful as it may be to accept.

Saying that Dworkin was not a feminist because she was a bigot is not unlike claiming that the Crusaders were not Christian because they killed people and otherwise acted in an unchristian manner. It may make sense on some level but it presents such a distorted view of the actual movement that it becomes whitewashing.

Sadly, real feminism has not always been inclusive. It has often been bigoted and ugly and it's important to keep that in mind to fight it instead of choosing the convenient, criticism-deflecting lie that the only real feminists are the good ones. That lie won't help anyone,much less the targets of bigotry.

We are not lying when we point out that these people were acting in ways that render them being considered feminists invalid. That they were known as feminists doesn't mean they actually were, and I'd thank you to stop calling us liars.
 

Erik Twice

Member
Nov 2, 2017
685
User Banned (2 Days): Arguing in bad faith
We are not lying when we point out that these people were acting in ways that render them being considered feminists invalid.
Nobody has said that. What I've said and what is written is that being bigots does not mean they are not "real feminists", because feminists, like any other person, can be bigoted and, sadly, they have sometimes been.
 

Cyanity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,345
I think thing most baffling about this thread is people who haven't necessarily been following the feminist movement's evolution over the past couple decades who don't realize that the movement itself has been struggling with TERF scum for ages. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if a huge chunk of today's self-proclaimed feminists would fit under the TERF umbrella. Trans hate is real, and pervasive, and it's only just recently been dredged up as a topical and important issue to cover.

Let's not pretend that the feminist movement is an untouchable, pure monolith. It is not. It has never been. But it has been getting better, and one of the most effective things we can do to make the modern feminist movement as effective as possible is to exclude TERFs from legitimacy.
 
Nov 14, 2017
2,332
I think thing most baffling about this thread is people who haven't necessarily been following the feminist movement's evolution over the past couple decades who don't realize that the movement itself has been struggling with TERF scum for ages. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if a huge chunk of today's self-proclaimed feminists would fit under the TERF umbrella. Trans hate is real, and pervasive, and it's only just recently been dredged up as a topical and important issue to cover.

Let's not pretend that the feminist movement is an untouchable, pure monolith. It is not. It has never been. But it has been getting better, and one of the most effective things we can do to make the modern feminist movement as effective as possible is to exclude TERFs from legitimacy.
Some of it also seems to be that people are treating feminism purely as an active movement, so demarcating what is and isn't "real" feminism to them is about values, not intellectual genealogy, which is understandable, but also an impediment to the sort of critical reflection that was and is necessary to critique white feminism, tran-exclusionary feminism etc...

RE: the bolded, I wonder if it isn't more accurate to call them TEFs, so to speak. TERFs seem to serve as figureheads or vectors for general transphobia that exists absent any substantial radical element. That many TERFs are content to go along with this kind of shows where their priorities lie.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,703
Brazil
RE: the bolded, I wonder if it isn't more accurate to call them TEFs, so to speak. TERFs seem to serve as figureheads or vectors for general transphobia that exists absent any substantial radical element. That many TERFs are content to go along with this kind of shows where their priorities lie.

Radical feminism is the only one that allows to be transphobic while still doing other feminist stuff because it allows for a person to be their genitals. You know, like sexist people see us.

They call it materialistic, we call it bullshit
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,703
Brazil
Double post because I saw this awesome post by a trans man on facebook
It is specially interesting because the focus on the ones in the parade for example were mostly on hating trans women so you would ALMOST believe when they say that they "accept" trans men.

https://www.facebook.com/Frankosaurusrex88/posts/10160605144045582

Frank Williams said:
This is a long post about TERFs.

I saw the leaflets the TERF infiltrators were distributing at London Pride last weekend and noticed that they'd referred to trans men as 'young lesbians', as per. Yet it seems that many people still see TERFs as a group which just has a 'simple difference of opinion' at one end, or as a group which behaves transphobically at Pride but behave normally the rest of the year at the other. In reality, TERFs are a classic example of an extremist hate group, and I want to show how they operate as such by sharing my personal experience and research on a subset of TERF groups that focus their hate on trans men.

These particular TERF groups operate mostly online and are dedicated to delegitimizing trans men so as to legitimise their brand of feminism. DirtyWhiteBoi67 [Do not look at her website] is a particularly distressing example of someone who has hurt me, my friends, and community. These TERFs use textbook hate group processes to permeate and destroy us and our communities. They seem to work as follows:

Discourse:
Most TERF groups insist that we're butch lesbians forced to transition by misogyny and patriarchy. At the more extreme end, some groups insist we're straight women forced to transition for the same reasons, in combination with assumed sexual abuse. Either way, they insist that we're women for various reasons, including that they want to blame someone for the reduction in traditional butch lesbian communities that they were once part of, and we are an easy target. They position this ideology as loving and caring about young girls suffering from structural or intimate abuse and who need to be saved from transition. In reality, this is largely incongruous with our own life experiences as queer/gay/straight/etc. men – life experiences we make freely available online, but they choose to ignore as it undermines their ideology.

Doxing:
To prove their ideology, these TERF groups dedicate a lot of time to stalking trans men online. They steal trans men's photos and videos of our transitions, our hormonal chest, and genital changes in particular, and create dossiers on individual trans men. They use these to create catalogues of 'evidence' for various uses; to prove that we're self-hating and self-mutilators; to out us to employers; to have power over us; to degrade us. Pages and pages of screenshots of random trans men's genitals with various dehumanising slurs alongside. They have done this to me and my friends and thousands more. It is very distressing. They claim to be interested in our medical procedures out of care and concern for us. In reality, this is predatory stalking with the ultimate goal of coercing us into detransition.

Dissemination:
These TERFs distribute their supposed evidence in leaflets and online. Like most hate groups, their websites aim to inform members and the public; encourage participation; claim divine calling and privilege; promote in-group love and accuse out-groups of being the problem. While most TERF literature is usually explicitly hateful towards trans women, this literature tends to show apparent care and concern for trans men. In reality, this is a façade to make their ideology more palatable.

Delegitimisation:
Like most hate groups, these TERF groups use pseudoscientific and in-house evidence to claim that we are not trans/men. 'Scientific' evidence is often used by hate groups as it has more weight to erode one's sense of self. Often, these TERFs are white middle class ex-academic types, so are very capable of using intellectualised language to convince people that they are knowledgeable. And as women, they can also convince people that this knowledge comes from a caring approach. They twist, ignore, and erase our lived experiences; our transness, masculinities, sexualities, dysphoria, terminologies etc. They use tactics such as gaslighting on weaker people and sealioning on stronger people. Their aim is to exhaust us and make us more malleable to their own brand of trans healthcare; reparative therapy. In reality, this goes completely against all best practice guidance published by trans communities, academics, and medical bodies.

Degradation:
While they take our photos, they never take the context. So where a trans man might share a video about top surgery being the best day of his life, a TERF will use that same photo and call it 'mutilation'. A trans man might share a video about how his genital growth has helped to reduce dysphoria; a TERF will use that video to call our genitals 'botched' and 'unnatural'. They say gross things about our minds and bodies. They pretend to be concerned for our welfare while simultaneously degrading us and rewriting our life experiences from their own cis viewpoint. They claim that hormones and surgery are hurting us. In reality, hormones and surgery saves many of our lives.

Dehumanisation:
TERFs reduce us to up-close photos of our scars and genitals and call us freaks of nature and other slurs. They like to talk in graphic detail about all the risks involved in coming out; losing your family, healthcare, surgical problems, sexual function etc. They tell you you'll never be a normal person. One of the reasons they do this is to try and scare young trans people away from medical transition. In reality, it is TERF-like attitudes that make being trans difficult, not being trans itself.

Demasculinisation:
These TERF groups aim to emasculate firstly because they hate men and masculinity, and secondly because they believe that if they destroy our sense of masculinity, we will return to their sisterhood and thus uphold their ideology. They do this by threatening that we'll become bad men if we use testosterone, pitting us against cis men, being cruel about surgical outcomes, saying we're unattractive or sexually dysfunctional, calling us degrading names, finding our 'before' photos, using feminised language etc. They insist that trans people reinforce sexist stereotypes while simultaneously insisting that we should perform a femininity that conforms to the sexist stereotypes they claim to be against. They also claim to care about our supposed self-hate. In reality, they instil self-hate to coerce us into detransition.

Desexualisation:
A major tactic of these groups, and TERFs in general, is the desexualisation of trans men, parallel to their hypersexualisation of trans women. They theorise trans men as asexual children and trans women as sexual predators. This is rooted in their perceptions of the genitals imo, while simultaneously claiming that women should not be judged on their physical attributes and that vulvas are no less sexual than penises. For example, they will take porn a trans man has willingly made and spent 17 hours uploading, to claim that the video shows sexual abuse. Again, this is all done apparently in sympathy for us. In reality, this completely ignores our own autonomy and our own sexualities.

Division:
They try to turn trans men against trans women and non-binary people. They try to convince us that other trans people keep us oppressed. In reality, it is of course the cis.

Blame:
These TERFs also use blame and shame; they say we go against feminism by transitioning, and that we let women down by joining the patriarchy etc. They know that if you are made to feel guilty for doing what you need to do just to survive, you might become more malleable to detransition and/or recruitment. They also blame us for more tangible things, such as the closure of traditional butch lesbian bars. In reality, there are numerous causes; the passing of time, for example. The barring of butch trans lesbians from such establishments is another good example.

Gaslighting:
While TERFs approach trans women with overt violence, these groups approach trans men with covert violence. Like most hate groups, they prey on the weak and vulnerable members of the community and promise to make them strong and powerful. If a trans man shares a post about a problem, top surgery not going well for example, they will be sympathetic and complimentary. They say you don't need the surgery, you are a beautiful woman as you are etc. They say they can help you to recover from your self-hate. The aim is to theorise trans as the root of one's problems rather than structural transphobia, and that detransition will solve all your problems. In reality, this is gaslighting and forced gendering/detransition, which fucks people up – but they do not care.

Grooming:
Once they've messed with your own sense of self, gender, sexuality, community etc., they can further coerce you into detransition and potential recruitment. Like many hate groups, those who might be at risk of coerced detransition or radicalisation tend to be the more weak and vulnerable members of the community. Those struggling in life or with transition, those late to transition, those who are isolated or don't fit in with their local trans community, those who have low self-worth, those who are easily influenced, and those who lack good role models or grew up around toxic masculinity. They will tell you that life is better on their side. In reality, it's not. And if it was, we wouldn't want to transition.

Conversion therapy:
These TERFS combine apparent intellectualism with apparent care to convince trans men that they can help us. They say they want to help you become a woman again because they care about women. But just like MRAs say they care about men as a cover for hating women, or white supremacists say they care about working class people as a cover for hating people of colour, TERFs say they care about women as a cover for hating trans people. They want to make us obsolete so as to legitimise their ideology. In reality, conversion therapy is condemned by most health and research organisations e.g. the Memorandum of Understanding of Conversion Therapy in the UK.

Frank Williams said:
In summary, TERFs prey on vulnerable people using Discourse; Doxing; Dissemination; Delegitimisation; Degradation; Dehumanisation; Demasculinisation; Desexualisation; Division; Blame; Gaslighting; Grooming; Conversion therapy. This includes tactics such as pseudointellectualism and pseudoscience, love-bombing, bullying, humiliation, sealioning, and coercion. They hate trans women and they hate trans men. They hate cis men, and some aren't keen on most cis women either - they hate anyone who isn't them. They bully, harass, and threaten trans people. They stalk trans men and ban trans women from spaces. They see themselves as superior and practice in-group love and out-group hate. They have their own symbols and phrases. They wave placards and banners with them on to intimidate others. They completely ignore all community, legal, and medical information in favour of their own ideology. They distribute this ideology to recruit more people. Their goal is to stop trans people from existing.

These are all the classic components of an extremist hate group according to the Anti-Defamation League and the Southern Poverty Law Centre, both of which research and monitor extremist/hate groups in America. While ideologically different, operationally TERFs work similarly to more well-known hate groups such as KKK, Aryan Brotherhood, C18, NF, NA, ATM, Westboro Baptist Church, Family Research Council, ACT For America, Alt-right MRAs and Incels, ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Al-Nusra Front etc.

We should not dismiss TERFs as just banner-waving loonies; transphobia is not a mental illness, it is a choice. We should not dismiss them as misinformed lesbians of
a generation gone by; the information is there, they just don't want it. We should not trivialise their threat just because they are women/lesbians; they are dangerous. We should not see their hate as isolated incidents at public events; they are operating 24/7 365 online. We should not think of them as stupid or backward; they are often well-organised, well-educated middle class white people. We should not see them as in need of help; they made a choice and are in too far to be reasoned with. Our energies would be much better spent elsewhere.

We should reject excuses made by Pride and other LGBTQ events organisers who allow TERFs to spread their hate. We should demand that events and community organisers take an absolutely zero tolerance approach to them. We should call upon organisations and allies to be actively inclusive and supportive of trans women in women's spaces and of trans people in general. We should urge organisations and allies to educate the wider public on how to report or challenge TERFs. We should pressure web moderators to ban TERF social media accounts and websites that promote transphobia. And we should all publicly condemn them for the hate group that they are.