The controversial ArenaNet firings of Guild Wars 2 writers (READ OP)

Nairume · Jul 12, 2018

If we are doing this

Were Deroir's comments condescending or rude? Yes, though likely unintended. He explains that a solution to a complex problem being discussed was a simple thing Price was aware of due to her experience.
Was it wrong for Deroir to comment on Price's feed? No. He was free to comment, but made the error in his approach.
Were Deroir's comments sexist or mansplaining? Even if he wasn't consciously doing it because of sexist reasons, he still believed himself to be as knowledgeable and on the level of an industry vet.
Were Price's comments on TotalBiscuit's death acceptable? Absolutely, though they don't matter for this discussion.
Did Price deserve to be fired for her comments? No, though a warning would be fair.
Did Fries deserve to be fired? Absolutely not.
Should companies be allowed to fire employees based on how they act to customers on social media, off the clock? It really depends. Someone attacking a large specific group (e.g. a Nazi going after a marginalized group) is one thing, but her reaction to a single person is another.

Foxdeimos · Jul 12, 2018

Krauser Kat said:
Were Deroir's comments condescending or rude? Yes. Any comment on professional work from non professionals is condescending outside of requested comments.

I must say I strongly disagree with this. As anyone who has worked in development and/or creative fields will be able to corroborate, and this is something that can only get worse the longer you work on a specific field or a specific project, there is a phenomenon called Tunnel Vision that basically narrows your field of vision as you feel you've depleted all possibilities and solutions, and may sometimes find yourself unable to perceive what others would consider trivial and/or obvious solutions to problems. In such cases, opinions from individuals far removed from your work environment can be really helpful in "re-opening" your mind to those possibilities. Sometimes, even people with little to no experience in said field can come up with surprisingly simple and effective solutions, and I believe it's important for any professional to be humble enough to be able to recognize and accept that.

The worst part about this kind of tunnel vision is that, more often than not, it can settle in without you even realizing, which is why I believe that any professional working on a creative medium should learn to be welcoming of "unsolicited" opinions, as you put them. Believing every single unsolicited opinion from less experienced individuals to be just condescending and rude is extraordinarily counter productive and I would seriously advise anyone against taking such a stance.

On the flip side, one must obviously be discerning as to what opinions can be helpful or not when working out of such predicaments, and that's where your experience will most heavily factor in. Still, there's no context that should make it acceptable to lash out against someone who's providing their opinion in a polite and respectful manner, regardless of it being solicited or not, or whether it was useful to you or not. Of course, people are free to believe what they will, but from my personal standpoint, I would say that this stance can only be dangerous to anyone working in a creative industry in the long run.

Vincent Grayson · Jul 12, 2018

Foxdeimos said:
I must say I strongly disagree with this. As anyone who has worked in development and/or creative fields will be able to corroborate, and this is something that can only get worse the longer you work on a specific field or a specific project, there is a phenomenon called Tunnel Vision that basically narrows your field of vision as you feel you've depleted all possibilities and solutions, and may sometimes find yourself unable to perceive what others would consider trivial and/or obvious solutions to problems. In such cases, opinions from individuals far removed from your work environment can be really helpful in "re-opening" your mind to those possibilities. Sometimes, even people with little to no experience in said field can come up with surprisingly simple and effective solutions, and I believe it's important for any professional to be humble enough to be able to recognize and accept that.

The worst part about this kind of tunnel vision is that, more often than not, it can settle in without you even realizing, which is why I believe that any professional working on a creative medium should learn to be welcoming of "unsolicited" opinions, as you put them. Believing every single unsolicited opinion from less experienced individuals to be just condescending and rude is extraordinarily counter productive and I would seriously advise anyone against taking such a stance.

On the flip side, one must obviously be discerning as to what opinions can be helpful or not when working out of such predicaments, and that's where your experience will most heavily factor in. Still, there's no context that should make it acceptable to lash out against someone who's providing their opinion in a polite and respectful manner, regardless of it being solicited or not, or whether it was useful to you or not. Of course, people are free to believe what they will, but from my personal standpoint, I would say that this stance can only be dangerous to anyone working in a creative industry in the long run.

I think it's true of pretty much any industry. I recall reading a few years back that doctors who have worked in their field for a long time are often less receptive to new research and information, especially if it runs counter to what they "know" already. I just can't see any logic behind the notion that this guy shouldn't have replied to a public post on a public forum about a subject he was interested in.

Vex · Jul 12, 2018

Nairume said:
Were Deroir's comments sexist or mansplaining? Even if he wasn't consciously doing it because of sexist reasons, he still believed himself to be as knowledgeable and on the level of an industry vet.

Juan29.Zapata said:
Deroir probably didn't think he was being condescending or rude, or that he was mansplaining, but his comments still were those things,

Is this really fair? Are we at a point where all you have to say is "you don't know you're being offensive right now" to shut down any form of criticism? How can you even argue against this type of comment? I have a beef with this because it is dismissive. It is dismissive to any productive form of feedback and conversation. I could see if he (Deroir) had a history of this, but he does not (as far as we know).

I would personally appreciate if we didn't do this anymore. It seems silly to insinuate that "he doesn't know any better" or he "wasn't conscious of it". Thank you.

Luckydog · Jul 12, 2018

Krauser Kat said:
Were Deroir's comments condescending or rude? Yes. Any comment on professional work from non professionals is condescending outside of requested comments.

This world is really going off the rails if this is the standard of conversation. Oh, and we should probably shut down TV, message boards, the whole internet, newspapers.....

Chase Lebowski · Jul 12, 2018

Dennis8K said:
Here is my personal feeling on these points:

Were Deroir's comments condescending or rude? No

Was it wrong for Deroir to comment on Price's feed? No

Were Deroir's comments sexist or mansplaining? No

Were Price's comments on TotalBiscuit's death acceptable? No

Did Price deserve to be fired for her comments? No, but a warning to cease being hostile to customers would have been in order. Repeat offense, fire her

Did Fries deserve to be fired? No

Should companies be allowed to fire employees based on how they act to customers on social media, off the clock? Yes of course, you could have an employee spouting insane Nazi nonsense on twitter, damaging your company's reputation. But being allowed to fire employees does not mean you have to - depends on the situation

This, and it's so simple.

Krauser Kat · Jul 12, 2018

Foxdeimos said:
I must say I strongly disagree with this. As anyone who has worked in development and/or creative fields will be able to corroborate, and this is something that can only get worse the longer you work on a specific field or a specific project, there is a phenomenon called Tunnel Vision that basically narrows your field of vision as you feel you've depleted all possibilities and solutions, and may sometimes find yourself unable to perceive what others would consider trivial and/or obvious solutions to problems. In such cases, opinions from individuals far removed from your work environment can be really helpful in "re-opening" your mind to those possibilities. Sometimes, even people with little to no experience in said field can come up with surprisingly simple and effective solutions, and I believe it's important for any professional to be humble enough to be able to recognize and accept that.

The worst part about this kind of tunnel vision is that, more often than not, it can settle in without you even realizing, which is why I believe that any professional working on a creative medium should learn to be welcoming of "unsolicited" opinions, as you put them. Believing every single unsolicited opinion from less experienced individuals to be just condescending and rude is extraordinarily counter productive and I would seriously advise anyone against taking such a stance.

On the flip side, one must obviously be discerning as to what opinions can be helpful or not when working out of such predicaments, and that's where your experience will most heavily factor in. Still, there's no context that should make it acceptable to lash out against someone who's providing their opinion in a polite and respectful manner, regardless of it being solicited or not, or whether it was useful to you or not. Of course, people are free to believe what they will, but from my personal standpoint, I would say that this stance can only be dangerous to anyone working in a creative industry in the long run.

We have amazing events like GDC where professionals talk and collaborate and push the industry forward. Artists have groups, and writers have clubs of our peers to help us move forward and create better things.
I dont consider random twitter or instagram followers my peers. Or have ever found it to be place to express my discomfort, disapproval or criticism of anything creative.

Orb · Jul 12, 2018

1. Generally speaking, companies should not have any say over what their employees post on their personal social media accounts, outside of things that are considered harmful / hate speech / etc. I think we have become far too accepting of this idea that you are always acting as a representative of the corporation you work for.

2. Deroir had no place trying to tell her how to do her job and it's laughable that he felt like he knew better than her.

3. Price's comments were a little more pointed than I would have expected, but I'm not going to judge her because I don't know what it's like to be in her shoes and having uniformed people shitting on you, especially if your identity has anything to do with it.

4. If there was any official social media policy in place at ArenaNet (which it seems there wasn't as far as I can tell), and Price violated that policy, outright firing was probably not the best discipline for a first offense, but she should not feel that she has any recourse because whether or not she was "in the right" ethically and morally, she agreed to it.

5. If there wasn't any social media policy in place (again, seems to be the case from what I know) then this was an especially boneheaded move on the company's part and they should have used this as a catalyst for getting their shit together.

6. I cannot figure out any possible scenario in which it was even remotely the right thing to fire Fries.

Overall I don't think she was outside the bounds of acceptable behavior and ArenaNet comes out looking pretty terrible in my eyes. And quite frankly I admire Price a bit for her candor. The way she talks and interacts with folks online isn't something I would do personally, but I kind of like that she isn't using her firing as a reason to go on some apology tour.

Calfirma · Jul 12, 2018

So I didn't chose to weigh in on this until now because I feel like with the mods are being a little too one-sided in this (sorry mods but I really gotta disagree with some of these bans.)

It is a shame that Fries got fired because all he really did was walk into the shooting range. He defended the wrong person for sure but he didn't do anything wrong himself, from what I have seen (and you can prove me wrong) but he wasn't toxic. what he deserved was to be pulled aside and have a quick convo about the situation. Price on the otherhand has had a history of making mountains out of molehills and generally rudeness/toxicity. Regardless of whether or not Deroir was being sexist (I didn't see any evidence) you DO NOT treat your customers like that. Whatever you do on your public social media account should affect your professional career and given her previous record of toxicity I think her being fired is a harsh but fair conclusion to this story.

This was something she did some time back:

I know this was a while ago but its just proof of her history of toxicity. This is flat-out wrong behaviour. Its aggressive and it has no place for anyone who's job is to create because with creation becomes criticism and you have to deal with that and not snap like she did.

This is a little off-topic now but I feel like I have to say this here. Mods, saying video game journalism coverage is bad is not a problem and personally it makes me a little sick that you are banning people for speaking out against them. Not to say that I agree or anything but the whole purpose of this kinda website is to voice opinions and you have to let that happen.

Kinthey · Jul 12, 2018

Krauser Kat said:
We have amazing events like GDC where professionals talk and collaborate and push the industry forward. Artists have groups, and writers have clubs of our peers to help us move forward and create better things.
I dont consider random twitter or instagram followers my peers. Or have ever found it to be place to express my discomfort, disapproval or criticism of anything creative.

Then who was she even talking to? I mean wasn't the point of it to engage random twitter followers?

Gestahl · Jul 12, 2018

So when did "I disagree slightly" and "telling you how to do your job" become the same thing? I was out of commission for a few years, maybe I missed something.

Juan29.Zapata · Jul 12, 2018

Vex said:
Is this really fair? Are we at a point where all you have to say is "you don't know you're being offensive right now" to shut down any form of criticism? How can you even argue against this type of comment? I have a beef with this because it is dismissive. It is dismissive to any productive form of feedback and conversation. I could see if he (Deroir) had a history of this, but he does not (as far as we know).

I would personally appreciate if we didn't do this anymore. It seems silly to insinuate that "he doesn't know any better" or he "wasn't conscious of it". Thank you.

But how can I not bring this to light? Some kind of actions, that seem so small are still considered by women to be a microagression, Price clearly took it as one. Is that kind of perspective to be simply discarded, is the female point of view not that important?

Calfirma · Jul 12, 2018

Juan29.Zapata said:
But how can I not bring this to light? Some kind of actions, that seem so small are still considered by women to be a microagression, Price clearly took it as one. Is that kind of perspective to be simply discarded, is the female point of view not that important?

Whether or not she may have found it to be like that doesn't give her the right to act like she did. If I made glass vases and someone said 'oh I think that one could have used more colour' I should not take it as an attack on me due to my gender. There is no attack here and it is disgusting that someone would shout at someone like that.

Budi · Jul 12, 2018

I'm also bit confused about this that Twitter would be intended as something personal. I really don't know much about it except that I don't like it (shit like this is one reason), but going through their site and the about section it doesn't really advertise/present itself in a manner of "connect with your family and friends!". Instead it's "Twitter is: what's happening in the world and what people are talking about right now." "Spark a global conversation." "Join the conversation". Like I can empathize with Price and understand her harsh reaction considering the shit around her for a long time. But many people seem incapable of empathizing why Deroir might think it's okay to approach a game dev who is seemingly talking to the game's community in Twitter. I highly doubt she was adressing her tweets to friends and family.

Also others have brought up as I recall, that there are ways to limit who can contact you through it. There are much better platforms for personal social interaction than Twitter.

Massicot · Jul 12, 2018

Orb said:
1. Generally speaking, companies should not have any say over what their employees post on their personal social media accounts, outside of things that are considered harmful / hate speech / etc. I think we have become far too accepting of this idea that you are always acting as a representative of the corporation you work for.

2. Deroir had no place trying to tell her how to do her job and it's laughable that he felt like he knew better than her.

3. Price's comments were a little more pointed than I would have expected, but I'm not going to judge her because I don't know what it's like to be in her shoes and having uniformed people shitting on you, especially if your identity has anything to do with it.

4. If there was any official social media policy in place at ArenaNet (which it seems there wasn't as far as I can tell), and Price violated that policy, outright firing was probably not the best discipline for a first offense, but she should not feel that she has any recourse because whether or not she was "in the right" ethically and morally, she agreed to it.

5. If there wasn't any social media policy in place (again, seems to be the case from what I know) then this was an especially boneheaded move on the company's part and they should have used this as a catalyst for getting their shit together.

6. I cannot figure out any possible scenario in which it was even remotely the right thing to fire Fries.

Overall I don't think she was outside the bounds of acceptable behavior and ArenaNet comes out looking pretty terrible in my eyes.

1.) She was following up on a specific question asked in a GW2 ama. To act like this was something divorced from her job is being somewhat dishonest, imo.

2.) Framing this like "Deroir acted like he knew better than her." Is also pretty slanted. His suggestion was tone-deaf in the fact that it could presume that it hadnt been considered, but it doesn't imply anything approaching your paraphasing.

3.) Again, acting like Deroir was "shitting" on her is an incredibly weird take on his comments. It is 'shitting" on someone to ask a question, even if the question is, maybe, dumb?

4-5.) Hard to comment on this because we don't know ANets social media policy. It definitely seems like a failure on Anets part to have a stronger one (Edit: "More well-defined" is what I mean) in place. I agree here.

6.) Agree

Kinthey · Jul 12, 2018

Budi said:
I'm also bit confused about this that Twitter would be intended as something personal. I really don't know much about it except that I don't like it (shit like this is one reason), but going through their site and the about section it doesn't really advertise/present itself in a manner of "connect with your family and friends!". Instead it's "Twitter is: what's happening in the world and what people are talking about right now." "Spark a global conversation." "Join the conversation". Like I can empathize with Price and understand her harsh reaction considering the shit around her for a long time. But many people seem incapable of empathizing why Deroir might think it's okay to approach a game dev who is seemingly talking to the game's community in Twitter. I highly doubt she was adressing her tweets to friends and family.

Also others have brought up as I recall, that there are ways to limit who can contact you through it.

It's almost like getting mad if someone were to comment on your YouTube video.

Deleted member 1635 · Jul 12, 2018

Krauser Kat said:
We have amazing events like GDC where professionals talk and collaborate and push the industry forward. Artists have groups, and writers have clubs of our peers to help us move forward and create better things.
I dont consider random twitter or instagram followers my peers. Or have ever found it to be place to express my discomfort, disapproval or criticism of anything creative.

The arrogance on display here is rather appalling to me. To think that only people who share your general profession can offer meaningful feedback... Crazy.

Budi · Jul 12, 2018

Kinthey said:
It's almost like getting mad if someone were to comment on your YouTube video.

Yeah and I think it's a valid option to just block the comments, I would definitely do it myself.

Feral · Jul 12, 2018

Krauser Kat said:
Were Deroir's comments condescending or rude? Yes. Any comment on professional work from non professionals is condescending outside of requested comments.

in that case, Era had a good run, but it's time to shut it down

Frostman · Jul 12, 2018

Calfirma said:
So I didn't chose to weigh in on this until now because I feel like with the mods are being a little too one-sided in this (sorry mods but I really gotta disagree with some of these bans.)

It is a shame that Fries got fired because all he really did was walk into the shooting range. He defended the wrong person for sure but he didn't do anything wrong himself, from what I have seen (and you can prove me wrong) but he wasn't toxic. what he deserved was to be pulled aside and have a quick convo about the situation. Price on the otherhand has had a history of making mountains out of molehills and generally rudeness/toxicity. Regardless of whether or not Deroir was being sexist (I didn't see any evidence) you DO NOT treat your customers like that. Whatever you do on your public social media account should affect your professional career and given her previous record of toxicity I think her being fired is a harsh but fair conclusion to this story.

Like this is flat-out wrong. Its aggressive and it has no place for anyone who's job is to create because with creation becomes criticism and you have to deal with that and not snap like she did.

This is a little off-topic now but I feel like I have to say this here. Mods, saying video game journalism coverage is bad is not a problem and personally it makes me a little sick that you are banning people for speaking out against them. Not to say that I agree or anything but the whole purpose of this kinda website is to voice opinions and you have to let that happen.

Lmao.

I've seen enough now. She deserved to go, and Arena were lucky it wasn't worse and more damaging to their image. She's aggressive, toxic and no doubt hard to get on with in the workplace.

Fries didn't deserve the firing. Can't believe this has to be discussed, it's as straightforward as it gets.

get2sammyb · Jul 12, 2018

Krauser Kat said:
Were Deroir's comments condescending or rude? Yes. Any comment on professional work from non professionals is condescending outside of requested comments.

Time to close down ResetEra, then. Was fun while it lasted, folks.

Deleted member 1635 · Jul 12, 2018

Juan29.Zapata said:
But how can I not bring this to light? Some kind of actions, that seem so small are still considered by women to be a microagression, Price clearly took it as one. Is that kind of perspective to be simply discarded, is the female point of view not that important?

You're basically advocating for people to tiptoe around women or simply not talk to them for fear of unconscious micro aggressions.

Juan29.Zapata · Jul 12, 2018

Calfirma said:
Whether or not she may have found it to be like that doesn't give her the right to act like she did. If I made glass vases and someone said 'oh I think that one could have used more colour' I should not take it as an attack on me due to my gender. There is no attack here and it is disgusting that someone would shout at someone like that.

There's a reason she lashed out, and it's that she's has already gone through microagressions such as this, even if you didn't take as an attack. Just because, we as men, don't see anything wrong with it, doesn't mean there's nothing bad.

It's like telling an interracial couple that their baby is gonna be beautiful. Seems like an innocuous comment, but it isn't.

Zefah said:
You're basically advocating for people to tiptoe around women or simply not talk to them for fear of unconscious micro aggressions.

I'm not, really.

Bird · Jul 12, 2018

I've read almost the entire thread, and am wondering if the discussion would even exist if she had said the same things she said, but in a softer way. Her initial response was pretty softball, and the way he reacted + he's continued to behave makes me think that she would never be able to phrase it softly enough for him.

She'd probably tried softballing plenty of fans in the past only for them to react negatively, or just refuse to back off because they couldn't read the room.

Bird · Jul 12, 2018

Juan29.Zapata said:
It's like telling an interracial couple that their baby is gonna be beautiful. Seems like an innocuous comment, but it isn't.

"you're so well spoken!"

Deleted member 1635 · Jul 12, 2018

Juan29.Zapata said:
It's like telling an interracial couple that their baby is gonna be beautiful. Seems like an innocuous comment, but it isn't.

Can we please stop with the reaching analogies and instead just talk about what actually happened?

also, please stop using "my dude" so much, everyone

Lord Brady · Jul 12, 2018

Fries didn't deserve to be fired, but her firing is completely justifiable regardless of the dumbshits celebrating her dismissal. And anyone painting Deroir as a GGer is a fool.

Super Corpse Soldier · Jul 12, 2018

Calfirma said:
So I didn't chose to weigh in on this until now because I feel like with the mods are being a little too one-sided in this (sorry mods but I really gotta disagree with some of these bans.)

It is a shame that Fries got fired because all he really did was walk into the shooting range. He defended the wrong person for sure but he didn't do anything wrong himself, from what I have seen (and you can prove me wrong) but he wasn't toxic. what he deserved was to be pulled aside and have a quick convo about the situation. Price on the otherhand has had a history of making mountains out of molehills and generally rudeness/toxicity. Regardless of whether or not Deroir was being sexist (I didn't see any evidence) you DO NOT treat your customers like that. Whatever you do on your public social media account should affect your professional career and given her previous record of toxicity I think her being fired is a harsh but fair conclusion to this story.

This was something she did some time back:

I know this was a while ago but its just proof of her history of toxicity. This is flat-out wrong behaviour. Its aggressive and it has no place for anyone who's job is to create because with creation becomes criticism and you have to deal with that and not snap like she did.

This is a little off-topic now but I feel like I have to say this here. Mods, saying video game journalism coverage is bad is not a problem and personally it makes me a little sick that you are banning people for speaking out against them. Not to say that I agree or anything but the whole purpose of this kinda website is to voice opinions and you have to let that happen.

Funfact: Also Jebro isn't just some nobody streamer like Deroir. He's the husband of one of her coworkers and she reacted like that.

Ralemont · Jul 12, 2018

Bird said:
I've read almost the entire thread, and am wondering if the discussion would even exist if she had said the same things she said, but in a softer way. Her initial response was pretty softball, and the way he reacted + he's continued to behave makes me think that she would never be able to phrase it softly enough for him.

She'd probably tried softballing plenty of fans in the past only for them to react negatively, or just refuse to back off because they couldn't read the room.

His reaction was to the initial comment + the asshat comment, both which she made before he came back with basically "I don't feel I deserved that but I'll leave you do it, bye." His reaction was a little passive aggressive, but you'd be a little hurt too if someone you respected was just an asshole to you for no reason.

Budi · Jul 12, 2018

Bird said:
I've read almost the entire thread, and am wondering if the discussion would even exist if she had said the same things she said, but in a softer way. Her initial response was pretty softball, and the way he reacted + he's continued to behave makes me think that she would never be able to phrase it softly enough for him.

She'd probably tried softballing plenty of fans in the past only for them to react negatively, or just refuse to back off because they couldn't read the room.

She really doesn't seem to be one to softball, considering how she gives movie criticism herself. Or how she responds to someone who liked that movie. And I don't think Deroir has "continued to behave" in any particular way, he wanted out of this mess as fast as possible. Somebody approached him for comments in the Twitter thread and he declined. He just thanked people for the heartfelt support he got and moved on.

Deleted member 1635 · Jul 12, 2018

Krauser Kat said:
That is also true.
But not every developer reads this forum and not everyone one of us shits on developers on their personal accounts during an in depth talk about their processes.

How was she "shit on?" What is going on anymore...

Juan29.Zapata · Jul 12, 2018

Zefah said:
Can we please stop with the reaching analogies and instead just talk about what actually happened?

also, please stop using "my dude" so much, everyone

How is it reaching? It's something that at first seems like a compliment or good, but when you really think about, it's a microaggression.

Calfirma · Jul 12, 2018

Juan29.Zapata said:
There's a reason she lashed out, and it's that she's has already gone through microagressions such as this, even if you didn't take as an attack. Just because, we as men, don't see anything wrong with it, doesn't mean there's nothing bad.

It's like telling an interracial couple that their baby is gonna be beautiful. Seems like an innocuous comment, but it isn't.

I'm not, really.

Just because she is a woman doesn't mean everything she perceives is real. She saw something out of nothing and regardless it was wrong to say what she said. just because someone hit you first does mean you get to beat the hell out of them anyway. A reason for lashing out does not excuse the lashing out.

Massicot · Jul 12, 2018

Bird said:
I've read almost the entire thread, and am wondering if the discussion would even exist if she had said the same things she said, but in a softer way. Her initial response was pretty softball, and the way he reacted + he's continued to behave makes me think that she would never be able to phrase it softly enough for him.

She'd probably tried softballing plenty of fans in the past only for them to react negatively, or just refuse to back off because they couldn't read the room.

He didn't react until she made three posts about it, one calling him an asshat, then he said his piece and ducked out quickly. "Continued to behave". What does that even mean? He hasn't posted about it since, afaik (at least not on his twitter).

Deleted member 1635 · Jul 12, 2018

Juan29.Zapata said:
How is it reaching? It's something that at first seems like a compliment or good, but when you really think about, it's a microaggression.

Because your analogy is about people implying that a child will be beautiful because of its racial makeup and what happened here is absolutely nothing like that? It's massively reaching.

Deleted member 888 · Jul 12, 2018

Krauser Kat said:
Were Deroir's comments condescending or rude? Yes. Any comment on professional work from non professionals is condescending outside of requested comments.

Was it wrong for Deroir to comment on Price's feed? Yes, wrong time wrong place. It shows arrogance and cannot be taken out of the environment of harassment of women (andmen) just doing their jobs in the games industry.

Honest question, I really didn't see this stated much on GAF over the years and hardly ever said here (before now). How is it we've had generations of any field of art or creative content face millions of customers talk about what they think works, what they didn't like, what they might like to see instead and also a wall of reviews in every field imaginable? Book reviews, game reviews, film reviews and everything else.

But now, it's all of a sudden condescending or rude, by default, or inherently, to comment on any work carried out by a professional?

Yes. Any comment on professional work from non professionals is condescending outside of requested comments.

How have we disregarded years and years and years of navigating the realms of creative content and feedback/response and bundled it neatly into "basically never speak your opinion on something you paid for/consumed because it's just rude".

People can be rude in how they speak or deliver feedback, sure, but how do we get to EVERY bit of feedback uttered unless you are a professional of some sorts is rude and condescending?

My brain is doing cartwheels right now trying to understand how someone on a hardcore gaming forum, surrounded by previews/reviews, E3 and years of critique of the industry can say something as definitive as the above without questioning how much it conflicts with real life. There are lengthy topics on this forum spending hours of real time critiquing and stating why game X or game Y should be different and the devs should consider changes.

All of that is rude and condescending unless Hideo Kojima or someone else personally asks you for feedback?

Raww Le Klueze · Jul 12, 2018

Bird said:
the way he reacted + he's continued to behave makes me think that she would never be able to phrase it softly enough for him.

By "the way he reacted and continued to behave" you are referring to him apologizing and backing off until she decided to bring it back up and sick her 10,000+ followers on him?

Juan29.Zapata · Jul 12, 2018

Calfirma said:
Just because she is a woman doesn't mean everything she perceives is real. She saw something out of nothing and regardless it was wrong to say what she said. just because someone hit you first does mean you get to beat the hell out of them anyway. A reason for lashing out does not excuse the lashing out.

When do aggressions become real to groups who are often discriminated, in your opinion? Or sexism is only real when we're talking about clear-cut cases?

And are only the clear-cut cases the ones where we should lash out? Or are minorities in charge of educating people who discriminate against them?

Zefah said:
Because your analogy is about people implying that a child will be beautiful because of its racial makeup and what happened here is absolutely nothing like that? It's massively reaching.

You explained the intricacies, and I'm telling you it applied because it's something that might sound good at first hearing, but it has implications that discriminate one of the parties involved. It's not reaching. But we're not gonna agree with this, so agree to disagree.

Deleted member 1635 · Jul 12, 2018

Raww Le Klueze said:
By "the way he reacted and continued to behave" you are referring to him apologizing and backing off until she decided to bring it back up and sick her 10,000+ followers on him?

That actually happened before he ever responded.

Casual · Jul 12, 2018

Orb said:
1. Generally speaking, companies should not have any say over what their employees post on their personal social media accounts, outside of things that are considered harmful / hate speech / etc. I think we have become far too accepting of this idea that you are always acting as a representative of the corporation you work for.

2. Deroir had no place trying to tell her how to do her job and it's laughable that he felt like he knew better than her.

3. Price's comments were a little more pointed than I would have expected, but I'm not going to judge her because I don't know what it's like to be in her shoes and having uniformed people shitting on you, especially if your identity has anything to do with it.

4. If there was any official social media policy in place at ArenaNet (which it seems there wasn't as far as I can tell), and Price violated that policy, outright firing was probably not the best discipline for a first offense, but she should not feel that she has any recourse because whether or not she was "in the right" ethically and morally, she agreed to it.

5. If there wasn't any social media policy in place (again, seems to be the case from what I know) then this was an especially boneheaded move on the company's part and they should have used this as a catalyst for getting their shit together.

6. I cannot figure out any possible scenario in which it was even remotely the right thing to fire Fries.

Overall I don't think she was outside the bounds of acceptable behavior and ArenaNet comes out looking pretty terrible in my eyes. And quite frankly I admire Price a bit for her candor. The way she talks and interacts with folks online isn't something I would do personally, but I kind of like that she isn't using her firing as a reason to go on some apology tour.

1. For something unrelated to work, I'd agree. But if you're talking about your work, and interacting with your employers customers, you've brought your employer into it. That's on you.

2. This is a bs spin. He simply gave his view on a way to solve the problem she brought up. If you don't want other people views, then why are you posting it on Twitter? He wasn't rude in anyway, and she immediately began acting like an entitled child because someone dared to offer their opinion that she left herself open for.

3. He wasn't shitting on her, and it had nothing to do with her identity. I'm sure she goes through some shit day to day as a result of being a female in this industry, that doesn't give you a pass to express your frustration at someone who has done nothing.

4/5. We don't know anything about either of these things so no real point going to deep.

6. Agreed. It's unfortunate he lost his job over someone else's missteps.

Frostman · Jul 12, 2018

Lord Brady said:
Fries didn't deserve to be fired, but her firing is completely justifiable regardless of the dumbshits celebrating her dismissal. And anyone painting Deroir as a GGer is a fool.

People are claiming that Deroir is a GGer? Fucking embarrassing

sph3re · Jul 12, 2018

Khalme said:
This very forum (and the rest of the planet in general) is full of rude condescending people then.

Well...

Foxdeimos · Jul 12, 2018

Krauser Kat said:
We have amazing events like GDC where professionals talk and collaborate and push the industry forward. Artists have groups, and writers have clubs of our peers to help us move forward and create better things.
I dont consider random twitter or instagram followers my peers. Or have ever found it to be place to express my discomfort, disapproval or criticism of anything creative.

That's a point I already addressed in my original statement. Good ideas and good solutions won't come only from your peers, and I think believing in that is extraordinarily counter productive. Besides, GDC and such events only happen a handful times a year at best, I don't find it wise to believe those are the only places you'll find good ideas and good solutions to everyday conundrums and problems that pop up in game development. Again, discerning what is useful or not is up to each developer, but shunning every single statement and suggestion directed to you by non-professional as simple condescending and naive banter is not a good idea, especially in an industry that relies on creativity and outside-the-box thinking to thrive.

Again, you do you, but I believe that to be a poor stance to take as a developer that can only serve to stunt your professional growth in the long run, but if you believe that to be wise, and if you think people taking such a stance are justified in their choice, then I don't think I have anything else to add.

Trejo · Jul 12, 2018

Super Corpse Soldier said:
Funfact: Also Jebro isn't just some nobody streamer like Deroir. He's the husband of one of her coworkers and she reacted like that.

Well, if nothing else you can't deny she's nothing if not consistent when it comes to assholish behavior.

Deleted member 1635 · Jul 12, 2018

Juan29.Zapata said:
You explained the intricacies, and I'm telling you it applied because it's something that might sound good at first hearing, but it has implications that discriminate one of the parties involved. It's not reaching. But we're not gonna agree with this, so agree to disagree.

I mean, you're just plain wrong. It doesn't sound good on first hearing at all unless you are comfortable with implying specific racial makeups generate more beautiful people. That's simply what that statement is and has absolutely nothing to do with a passionate fan providing feedback about game dialogue and character design in an MMORPG. His comments had absolutely zero to do with her gender.

Einherjer · Jul 12, 2018

Frostman said:
People are claiming that Deroir is a GGer? Fucking embarrassing

It fits their narrative that's really all that matters to them now.

Bird · Jul 12, 2018

Massicot said:
He didn't react until she made three posts about it, one calling him an asshat, then he said his piece and ducked out quickly. "Continued to behave". What does that even mean? He hasn't posted about it since, afaik (at least not on his twitter).

He has at least a bit of influence among the fandom. Even if it wouldn't stop the GG assholes, he should at least throw a few "back off you guys" out there. I don't have any on hand, but some other situations like this happened in the last few years were the Deroir-equivalent did their best to defuse the event that blew up.

Kinthey · Jul 12, 2018

Super Corpse Soldier said:
Funfact: Also Jebro isn't just some nobody streamer like Deroir. He's the husband of one of her coworkers and she reacted like that.

Goddamn, lol. Really makes you wonder who this Twitter is meant to be for.

Deleted member 1635 · Jul 12, 2018

Bird said:
He has at least a bit of influence among the fandom. Even if it wouldn't stop the GG assholes, he should at least throw a few "back off you guys" out there. I don't have any on hand, but some other situations like this happened in the last few years were the Deroir-equivalent did their best to defuse the event that blew up.

You're saying that there were people who happily engaged in harassment that weren't GG'ers and would have listened to Deroir if he told them to back off? I don't get it.

Ralemont · Jul 12, 2018

Juan29.Zapata said:
There's a reason she lashed out, and it's that she's has already gone through microagressions such as this, even if you didn't take as an attack. Just because, we as men, don't see anything wrong with it, doesn't mean there's nothing bad.

It also doesn't mean there is something bad. This is dangerously close to implying that men are not allowed to be critical of anything a woman does, because if she doesn't like it she can label it "mansplaining" and it automatically becomes true. And if you aren't saying that, then I'll ask what is your criteria for judging whether something is actually a microagression or not?

Or perhaps we can simply say that ALL criticism is a micro-aggression (which could make a kind of intuitive sense) but follow that up with deciding that not all micro-aggressions are actually bad and sometimes can be actually good (as we intuitively feel about criticism).

As for myself, I feel the best option is to collectively use rational judgment to determine whether something is a problem or not. This can be done without discarding the importance of emotion and feelings, but while recognizing that they were only one part of the whole. So Jessica feeling badly about someone criticizing her can be noted, but by looking at the criticism we can determine whether there's something afoul about it regardless of how she feels.

The controversial ArenaNet firings of Guild Wars 2 writers (READ OP)

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