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BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
Some will consider this a weird take, but I partially blame the shift of video games towards shooters/hyper masculinity in the last decade plus. A lot of gaming used to be a pretty oblique hobby, with very colorful aesthetics. But over time the "brown grey" "hardcore gamer" trend swallowed up the entire industry, and it created an environment where toxic masculinity could fester.

The mainstreaming of video games via online shooters is hardly connected to Gamergate at all. In fact, a strong argument could be made that the casual fans who make up the majority of the fanbases of games like Halo or CoD are actually the least likely to have been involved in Gamergate simply because gaming is a secondary hobby to them and they don't actively browse gaming websites, forums, and videos where they would be exposed to its ideas, and if they do get exposed to those ideas, they often have enough life experience outside of gaming to reject them.
 

SuiQuan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
885
Kazakhstan - soon
To be fair a whole lot of people actually believe it was about 'ethics in journalism' because they never looked into it any farther than that. It struck a chord with them, the whole 'press is too chummy with developers' thing made sense to them and that was all they needed - they don't trust reviews, they think impressions are bought, and they missed the whole underbelly of the movement being about harassing women out of games.
If a person chooses to support an idea while being misinformed and shout about it from the mountaintops, they are culpable in the whole mess. Those particular people might not be beyond salvation if they admit their fault, but it's their duty as adults to know excatly the shit they are spouting. Adults having no clue and still picking sides will have no compassion from me. They should have learned by now how to educate themselves.
I'll always make an exception for a kid though. In my line of work if some kid starts to say BS they heard from some shitstain Youtuber, I always make it a point to urge them to study the very thing they so vehemently oppose. No snark, no agression, just questions that never fail to show to themselves that they don't actually know much. I never push my ideas onto them - just ask them what they actually know about the thing. A recent example was a 15 year-old kid and feminism. I just calmly advised him to read on it and what it actually stood for. It helped a lot. A couple more occasions like that and the kid started to have more nuanced and adult-like sense of judgement.
 

Deleted member 15326

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,219
Doesn't help that the industry at large looks the other way or even awards them on a yearly basis

Have yet to see a leading figure from even one of the supposedly progressive studios speak out unequivocally against it
 

KDR_11k

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
5,235
It recruited gamers into extremist movements, without a proper deradicalization strategy by the government those groups don't go away. With the global resurgence of the far right and racism I don't know why you'd expect gamergate to go away.
 

Poodlestrike

Smooth vs. Crunchy
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
13,489
Basically deplatforming is needed, no? Within communities. And then hopefully within sites or service provides. Unfortunately big platforms like Reddit or Facebook don't do that, not enough.
Basically, yeah. If the platform won't cooperate, just making it clear that these assholes aren't welcome as individuals will have to do.
 

No42.05W70.2

Banned
Jun 14, 2018
763
These attitudes have been around far longer than that.
When I was growing up in the 90s, there were a lot of games like Final Fantasy were at the height of their popularity, revolving around turn based combat, and sparkly goddesses, and sweeping romances. There were a lot of very colorful characters. Anime/comic book style art had a larger influence than it does today. Like SSX Tricky, had all these characters with different ethnicities and wild outfits. Game aesthetics shifted in the mid/later 00s, where the cost of development was higher, and publishers were more risk averse.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
49,972
I honestly wonder how much of the backlash to "casuals" with the DS and Wii generation - nothing that those casuals are often people who fell out of the standard gaming demographics - was another precursor to this. Albeit it would be a much, much softer one.
 

Poodlestrike

Smooth vs. Crunchy
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
13,489
Some will consider this a weird take, but I partially blame the shift of video games towards shooters/hyper masculinity in the last decade plus. A lot of gaming used to be a pretty oblique hobby, with very colorful aesthetics. But over time the "brown grey" "hardcore gamer" trend swallowed up the entire industry, and it created an environment where toxic masculinity could fester.
Even when games were all blocky and colorful, they were pretty extensively marketed as "boy's toys." The fist collapse of the gaming industry and the rise of Nintendo are hugely to blame, honestly.
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,519
When I was growing up in the 90s, there were a lot of games like Final Fantasy were at the height of their popularity, revolving around turn based combat, and sparkly goddesses, and sweeping romances. There were a lot of very colorful characters. Anime/comic book style art had a larger influence than it does today. Like SSX Tricky, had all these characters with different ethnicities and wild outfits. Game aesthetics shifted in the mid/later 00s, where the cost of development was higher, and publishers were more risk averse.
And horrible attitudes toward girls and women in the gaming community was still terrible. Stuff like dudes accusing women of being "fake" gamers was rampant and not to mention all the sexist "jokes". This has been festering for a long time and the rise of first person shooters had nothing to do with it.
 

Just_a_Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,030
Last I heard, over 40% of the population approved of what Trump is doing. That's 40% of people that don't give a shit about equality, LGBTQ+ rights, or minorities. In other words, a prime recruiting ground for GATORS. GG's are the concentrated extreme elements of that group, those who would want much of the 'undesirable' population deported or outright killed. With that large a base, and the toxic masculinity and misogyny that has attracted them to gaming for so many years, it's not that surprising that GG is still around and stronger than ever.
 
Last edited:

erikNORML

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,709
Because a certain subset of "gaming" culture is a bunch of neckbeards who never learned how to actually interact with humans, developed awful atrocious social habits and racist/homophonic/misogynistic views. Big crossover with the so called "incel" community who are mostly anti-social, dickheads who think they don't get laid because women are awful and they clearly are the biggest prize around living in their parents basement and not showering and the only reason women dont sleep with them despite them being such a "nice guy" is some weird conspiracy against them conjured by "femi-nazis" and SJWs. Add Trump and the alt-right resurgence into the mix making these people feel more comfortable speaking these thoughts out loud and there you go.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,001
People smarter than me have written long explanations of the connection between gaming culture, white male fragility, Gamergate, 4chan, the alt-right, and Trump, so I'll just sum it up briefly:

1. Video games have traditionally been presented as a "male" hobby. Young girls are dissuaded, by culture, their parents, and male gamers, from playing video games. Many women do end up playing games, but they aren't the hardcore types who populate gaming forums
2. As a result, online gaming communities end up being overwhelmingly, or even entirely, male
3. In the late 90s and early 2000s, various politicians sought to ban or restrict violent video games. The gaming community and gaming media unanimously condemned these efforts and were, seemingly, on the same side for many years
4. Young men who play enormous amounts of video games lack the social skills to make friends or meet women in real life as they enter their teens. Severely socially stunted, they retreat into their online, male-only communities, becoming angry and resentful at women

This is where it ended, for the most part, until 2012-2014, when the following things happened:

4. Social justice issues became more a more prominent focus of the gaming industry. The harassment wave aimed at Anita Sarkeesian ended up being condemned by a number of gaming media sites (though not nearly enough), leaving many male gamers with the impression that the media that previously aided them in their war against Jack Thompson had since been infiltrated or co-opted by the feminists who supposedly want to destroy video games as he did
5. 4chan's /pol/ board was created and almost immediately became a recruiting ground for white supremacist and men's rights extremist groups, who spread their ideas to unmoderated gaming communities across the internet
6. The Zoe Quinn incident that incited Gamergate was, again, condemned by (most of) the gaming media. The far-right, who had spent decades sowing distrust of the media, encouraged the gaming community to revolt, saying "This is what we've been telling you for years -- they're liberally biased and hate white men"
7. Gamergate was roundly criticized from across the gaming and real-world media and largely failed to succeed in its goals. As a result, its members became further jaded and radicalized, getting hooked into further racism, sexism, anti-Semitism, and other hallmarks of what would become known as the alt-right
8. Trump shows up. The alt-right and 4chan immediately begin to support him
9. Apocalypse happens

amazing summary.
 

AntiMacro

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,135
Alberta
If a person chooses to support an idea while being misinformed and shout about it from the mountaintops, they are culpable in the whole mess. Those particular people might not be beyond salvation if they admit their fault, but it's their duty as adults to know excatly the shit they are spouting. Adults having no clue and still picking sides will have no compassion from me. They should have learned by now how to educate themselves.
I'll always make an exception for a kid though. In my line of work if some kid starts to say BS they heard from some shitstain Youtuber, I always make it a point to urge them to study the very thing they so vehemently oppose. No snark, no agression, just questions that never fail to show to themselves that they don't actually know much. I never push my ideas onto them - just ask them what they actually know about the thing. A recent example was a 15 year-old kid and feminism. I just calmly advised him to read on it and what it actually stood for. It helped a lot. A couple more occasions like that and the kid started to have more nuanced and adult-like sense of judgement.
I don't know, I think there probably were at least SOME who joined the 'ethics' bandwagon and saw the mouthbreathing shit machine part of it as some splinter group...not the overwhelming mass. I've done a newspaper column on gaming for 15+ years and I'm entirely in favour of higher ethical standards for games journalism, so if I'd been exposed to JUST that portion of it...I might have thought it was a good idea. As someone that saw how it started and could see what a shitstorm it really was, obviously that wasn't the case - but I understand how people who aren't as in touch with gaming as we are might have seen one part, not the whole. Especially if they have that one friend who spends way too much time on Reddit or Twitter and can tell them the 'real' truth.
 
May 27, 2018
28
Why do people keep talking about a thing when someone, not even dead a month, has their name dragged through the mud on a, from what I am to recall, a supposed reputable publication tying him to the thing and also badgering his wife (who is still grieving)?

Couldn't tell ya, it's a real fuckin' mystery that one.
 

Deleted member 2507

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,188
Incels.

Which incidentally have a heavy cross over with alt-right/Trump supporters.
Of course. Incels, neo-nazis, white supremacists, alt-right, gamergate, etc. are all manifestations of the same or similar thinking, ideology and people. (You can probably throw in stereotypical militant atheists and undoubtedly some other groups.)
 

No42.05W70.2

Banned
Jun 14, 2018
763
The mainstreaming of video games via online shooters is hardly connected to Gamergate at all. In fact, a strong argument could be made that the casual fans who make up the majority of the fanbases of games like Halo or CoD are actually the least likely to have been involved in Gamergate simply because gaming is a secondary hobby to them and they don't actively browse gaming websites, forums, and videos where they would be exposed to its ideas, and if they do get exposed to those ideas, they often have enough life experience outside of gaming to reject them.
I don't view the mainstreaming of CoD and Halo games to mean that non-gamers play shooters, so much as the majority of the gaming community shifting towards shooters. I think there's a large overlap in the type of people who fetishize militarism, and nationalism, and would want to play a shooter style game.
 

sibarraz

Prophet of Regret - One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
18,094
Guys could you please stop being mysoginist?


DgzuK_YWsAMl-W8.jpg

DhC777wWkAI52Up.jpg
 

Poodlestrike

Smooth vs. Crunchy
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
13,489
Communities exiling assholes is just treating the problem without really solving it :/
While the problem exists, the assholes keep coming back, or at least new ones appear.
Sure, there'll always be assholes, but you can hugely reduce their power by kicking them out of communities. Marginalizing works as a tool to reduce influence.
 

Deleted member 15326

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,219
Why do people keep talking about a thing when someone, not even dead a month, has their name dragged through the mud on a, from what I am to recall, a supposed reputable publication tying him to the thing and also badgering his wife (who is still grieving)?

Couldn't tell ya, it's a real fuckin' mystery that one.

He chose to profit from it
 

AntiMacro

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,135
Alberta
Of course. Incels, neo-nazis, white supremacists, alt-right, gamergate, etc. are all manifestations of the same or similar thinking, ideology and people. (You can probably throw in stereotypical militant atheists and undoubtedly some other groups.)
This is why gamergate won't go away, in my opinion. Any of those 'our problems are someone else's doing' groups never take responsibility, they just continue to find targets to blame. When they get pushed out of a forum or their twitter account gets banned, the increasing feeling of being marginalized just lends strength to their 'we're ok, they're the problem' hive minds.
 

Deleted member 2507

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,188
Sure, there'll always be assholes, but you can hugely reduce their power by kicking them out of communities. Marginalizing works as a tool to reduce influence.
I guess, i'm just worried there isn't being done enough to marginalize them. As noted, Reddit for example. And that's just online, then we got Trump etc. who drive things in reality, emboldening the alt-right types more and more.
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,545
Look at whats happening politically all over the world the last couple of years, it's not just in video games, people who have this type of ideology have become incredibly emboldened.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,316
Why do people keep talking about a thing when someone, not even dead a month, has their name dragged through the mud on a, from what I am to recall, a supposed reputable publication tying him to the thing and also badgering his wife (who is still grieving)?

Couldn't tell ya, it's a real fuckin' mystery that one.

Captain "It's not a death threat because she's still breathing" bloody well tied himself to it.
 

No42.05W70.2

Banned
Jun 14, 2018
763
And horrible attitudes toward girls and women in the gaming community was still terrible. Stuff like dudes accusing women of being "fake" gamers was rampant and not to mention all the sexist "jokes". This has been festering for a long time and the rise of first person shooters had nothing to do with it.
So you don't think that Gamergate represents any increase in the game community's misogyny/antipathy towards minorities?
 
May 27, 2018
28
Captain "It's not a death threat because she's still breathing" bloody well tied himself to it.
Ends justifies the means, huh?

As long as you get your target, you can post an article when the man isn't even cold on the grave and his family still comin' to terms. Gotta get your win, fuck what gets blown to bits in the process.

Shit like this is why GamerGate comes back to haunt people.
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,519
So you don't think that Gamergate represents any increase in the game community's misogyny/antipathy towards minorities?
No.It's been there all along, GG was just it spilling over into the news to the point where most people couldn't ignore it any more. Look at some of the responses in this thread. People claiming that it's over due to not being in the news as much despite the fact that the actions that defined GG are still happening. All that really changed was the media coverage.

Ends justifies the means, huh?

Dead people aren't above criticism.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,316
Ends justifies the means, huh?

As long as you get your target, you can post an article when the man isn't even cold on the grave and his family still comin' to terms. Gotta get your win, fuck what gets blown to bits in the process.

Shit like this is why GamerGate comes back to haunt people.

Dying doesn't like erase your history.
 

SuiQuan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
885
Kazakhstan - soon
I don't know, I think there probably were at least SOME who joined the 'ethics' bandwagon and saw the mouthbreathing shit machine part of it as some splinter group...not the overwhelming mass. I've done a newspaper column on gaming for 15+ years and I'm entirely in favour of higher ethical standards for games journalism, so if I'd been exposed to JUST that portion of it...I might have thought it was a good idea. As someone that saw how it started and could see what a shitstorm it really was, obviously that wasn't the case - but I understand how people who aren't as in touch with gaming as we are might have seen one part, not the whole. Especially if they have that one friend who spends way too much time on Reddit or Twitter and can tell them the 'real' truth.
Well, maybe there are some like that. But as you've said yourself, those are unlikely to be a considerable statistic. The majority are there wilfully, or are, at the very least, willfully ignorant of specific parts of the overall movement which might not suit their perfect self-patronising bubble of fighting for supposed ethics in journalism that they've created for themselves.
 
May 27, 2018
28
User Banned (Permanent): Rationalizing hate movements, account still in the junior phase.
Dead people aren't above criticism.
Journos aren't above muckraking a person, not a month dead and badgering their greaving family for comment either, apparently.
Want to bad mouth a person and they're dead (and not some sort of criminal that warranted capital punishment with their crimes) then have the common decency to hold it in whilst the family is coming to terms at the very fucking least.
Dying doesn't like erase your history.
Badmouthing the recently deceased certainly stains it though.
 

Temascos

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,502
Here's how in my eyes the GG pro censorship - 'movement' began:

1) Late PS3/360 era. People getting bored of the consoles and awaiting the next gen. Growing frustrated with what they see as slow development. This is of course along with the economic recession that has meant less opportunities.
2) Casual games start to become more popular, especially with Wii and Kinect in play, along with the surge in mobile games. Publishers decide to place a greater deal more focus as it makes money compared to AAA games.
3) Tropes Vs Women is made, criticising how women are portrayed in games. People (Read: Idiots) think that Anita is trying to ban videogames like Jack Thompson did (Obiviously not true), because their first point of contact are their favourite youtubers/outlets/etc who hate anything that isn't status quo. Her kickstarter surges because the harassment escalated to extreme levels and made more people pay attention to it and thus, give more money towards it.
4) Zoe Quinn is one other designer who spoke out about her time in the industry and how women have a harder time making it, subjecting her to a lot of shit.
5) Next gen revs up with the announcements of PS4 and XB1. They have successful launches.
6) 2014 is a slow year for AAA releases due to not too many publishers and developers having their biggest games ready on time, resulting in frustration.
7) Bizzarely, at the same time indie games do well critically and commercially. Our previously mentioned idiots seem to collectively agree on the logical conclusion - The Gaming Journalist Outlets are colluding in order to destroy the AAA game space. This is rather than blame the publishers for not pushing the boundaries or taking advantage of customers.
8) Finally, an ex of Zoe Quinn releases that false information, they take it without question as she previously spoke up before and this is their chance to bring down the great evil of Feminism that clearly resulted in AAA games being slow in release dates and adding in microtransactions.
9) Steve Bannon and a bunch of others look at this and go : "Damn, these guys are ahead of the curve!"
10) Here we are in FuckedUpVille.

My timeline might be slightly off.
 

AntiMacro

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,135
Alberta
Ends justifies the means, huh?

As long as you get your target, you can post an article when the man isn't even cold on the grave and his family still comin' to terms. Gotta get your win, fuck what gets blown to bits in the process.

Shit like this is why GamerGate comes back to haunt people.
He openly supported GamerGate. That doesn't go away because he died.
 

Doof

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,434
Kentucky


Apparently I should harass women to be more of a man.


I wouldn't even engage with these wastes of skin, tbh.

Why do people keep talking about a thing when someone, not even dead a month, has their name dragged through the mud on a, from what I am to recall, a supposed reputable publication tying him to the thing and also badgering his wife (who is still grieving)?

Couldn't tell ya, it's a real fuckin' mystery that one.

It's telling that you care more about a man who helped to spread hateful views having his family asked for comment by journos (which is a super standard practice for anyone famous or controversial who passes away, btw) than the people he helped turn a hate mob against.
 

No42.05W70.2

Banned
Jun 14, 2018
763
No.It's been there all along, GG was just it spilling over into the news to the point where most people couldn't ignore it any more. Look at some of the responses in this thread. People claiming that it's over due to not being in the news as much despite the fact that the actions that defined GG are still happening. All that really changed was the media coverage.
But there's also wild amounts of sexism/racism in mainstream culture overall right now... I mean, I grew watching Xena, a lesbian female warrior on network tv... if that show came out today it would be subject to incendiary backlash. It seems obvious that toxic prejudiced ideas have been emboldened and made more acceptable in recent years.
 

BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
Why do people keep talking about a thing when someone, not even dead a month, has their name dragged through the mud on a, from what I am to recall, a supposed reputable publication tying him to the thing and also badgering his wife (who is still grieving)?

Couldn't tell ya, it's a real fuckin' mystery that one.

Alright, troll with 27 posts, if you want to do this, let's do it.

John "Totalbiscuit" Bain was the key enabler, cheerleader, and legitimizer for Gamergate, the biggest organized harassment movement in the history of the internet. Famously claiming that death threats against Anita Sarkeesian couldn't be real because "she's still breathing," Bain's single-minded focus on video gaming as his whole identity meant that he openly expressed his belief that the gaming community was more important than discrimination faced by women. Bain viewed himself as the leader of a crusade against "anti-consumer" behavior on the part of developers and journalists, and as a result was willing to ally himself with literally anyone as long as they had a shared goal in fighting a particular developer or journalism outlet. Bain frequently used his Youtube show and podcast as a platform for members of the alt-right and Gamergate, allowing them to spread their propaganda while he insisted that Gamergate was merely an exercise in holding the industry accountable for unethical behavior and that any harassment faced by his targets was either exaggerated or did not occur at all. He would frequently sit idly by while his massive fanbase attacked and harassed women and others who spoke out against him, and would on some occasions even sic his fanbase on them himself. Despite popular belief, Bain never renounced Gamergate and never apologized to anyone that he targeted. He went to his grave insisting that Gamergate was a misunderstood movement for ethical journalism and that he had been unfairly maligned, and his cult-like fanbase is insistent on spreading that message and attacking anyone who dares to criticize him -- just as he would have wanted.

Now, allow us to forget this man and continue the discussion as OP intended.
 

Complicated

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,332
Journos aren't above muckraking a person not a month dead and badgering their greaving family for comment ether, apprently.
Why focus on the questionable call of contacting relatives of a dead person (running a story without contacting them isn't exactly the right thing to do from a journalistic standpoint) rather than the man's horrible and damaging actions for personal gain that they're reporting on? Journalists have jobs to do, and sometimes that requires them to put themselves and their subjects in uncomfortable situations in order to report on powerful people doing bad things.
 

Vela

Alt Account
Banned
Apr 16, 2018
1,818
Because the games industry and gaming media haven't learned shit
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Journos aren't above muckraking a person, not a month dead and badgering their greaving family for comment either, apparently.
Want to bad mouth a person and they're dead (and not some sort of criminal that warranted capital punishment with their crimes) then have the common decency to hold it in whilst the family is coming to terms at the very fucking least.

Badmouthing the recently deceased certainly stains it though.

I find it fascinating that you are trying to make it about totalbuisit when it was about a lot of other still living people. Almost as if you don't want a true conversation and are using TB's death as a shield from any and all criticisms.
 

KingBean

Banned
Nov 30, 2017
236
I honestly believe it's because some poeple that support it don't really know what gamergate has ended up being about. If it ever was honestly about truth about gaming journalisim.

So you've got the people that don't realize what it stands for and then you've got the people that are for it only as a reaction. The people that feel "the others" are there to take away something from them or that they are there to look down on them for liking something.

I feel that the 2nd batch of people happen to be the most common and most vocal. That its not so much that they're anti-women or only want things catered to them, it's that they feel like people are just complaining to complain and that somehow that will lead to them not having the or favorite game.

Then you have pieces of shit that are out to attack women and probably dont give a shit about gaming.
 

Stuggatz

Member
Jun 6, 2018
358
Seems like it was two entirely separate issues that got sandwiched together to such an extent that it's not productive to discuss it. Like taking a knee and supporting troops.