I wonder what are you think about these? They are from Folklore:
Yeah, personally I've kind of given up on threads like this, even when the OP itself is very well informed and made in good faith. More often than not is just one side claiming the oversexualization of female characters is harmful for real life women and the perception of their own sexuality and the other refusing to acknowledge even a single problem in the stuff they consume because hey, they're heterosexual men and see no issues with them tiddies, and would rather not have "every female character be ugly to not offend anyone" lol.Yeah I think I'm gonna stick to this thread now. I did my best but some people aren't interested in discussion and just want to enjoy their jiggling boobs.
Oh thanks, missed it here completely. Sorry for the trouble. Got distracted by those great pictures of historical central Asia.
All you can do is raise the issue and hope that it gets through to some people. I think you and many others did a good job in that thread to articulate why it's problematic.Yeah I think I'm gonna stick to this thread now. I did my best but some people aren't interested in discussion and just want to enjoy their jiggling boobs.
All you can do is raise the issue and hope that it gets through to some people. I think you and many others did a good job in that thread to articulate why it's problematic.
Really appreciate that, thanks.All you can do is raise the issue and hope that it gets through to some people. I think you and many others did a good job in that thread to articulate why it's problematic.
Yeah, of course. The only thing you have to remember though is that, well, no one thinks advertising works on them... but, we know that advertising does work, or else it wouldn't be so widespread. So what does that tell us? That oh, I'm special and smarter than others? Or maybe it does influence me in some more subtle, subconscious level? :)Hate having to ask this since i'm sure there is an answer I didn't see, is it possible to consume media and not be influenced by it because you know its bullshit, but still enjoy it yet never think of it as the norm and tell others the same? This might come off as a GGer kinda sounding thing since we all know it starts with "Just asking/etc"
Hate having to ask this since i'm sure there is an answer I didn't see, is it possible to consume media and not be influenced by it because you know its bullshit, but still enjoy it yet never think of it as the norm and tell others the same? This might come off as a GGer kinda sounding thing since we all know it starts with "Just asking/etc"
I mean sure, I enjoy stuff like Persona games and will buy Xenoblade 2 despite knowing they have some very questionable elements that I personally I'm very against. The thing that makes the difference is wheter you criticize these negative elements yourself and/or have a problem with others doing it.Hate having to ask this since i'm sure there is an answer I didn't see, is it possible to consume media and not be influenced by it because you know its bullshit, but still enjoy it yet never think of it as the norm and tell others the same? This might come off as a GGer kinda sounding thing since we all know it starts with "Just asking/etc"
I think you're right, and despite people not wanting to engage with certain topics it's good to have threads like this that allow open discussion.
When your identity gets tied up in certain fandoms it can be hard to take a critical step back, especially when it's so often completely misunderstood by 'normies.' I totally understand why people buck back against these threads- even people who would otherwise agree with the thesis- but more often than not people just see this as outsiders criticizing what they don't understand.
Hate having to ask this since i'm sure there is an answer I didn't see, is it possible to consume media and not be influenced by it because you know its bullshit, but still enjoy it yet never think of it as the norm and tell others the same? This might come off as a GGer kinda sounding thing since we all know it starts with "Just asking/etc"
This is exactly how I view characters too. If a character has a background of wandering the untamed wilderness for months on end in addition to fighting, and hasn't discovered the little creature comforts of good boots, scabbards for weapons, padding under armour and travelling clothes that aren't chafing in all the wrong places, I struggle to be convinced that the character is anything other than a blithering idiot. Red-raw skin around the groin, broken ankles from mountaineering in heels, sunburn/exposure from getting caught in the heat/blizzard in little more than a nightdress and bleeding wounds from decorative metal armour just don't scream 'sexy and smart' to me! :DI'll add that it's a form of character-building, too. If I see a stylish, but comfortable looking outfit for riding, adventuring or combat, I think, "this character is competent and experienced, ready for adventure". If I see them wearing metal lingerie with metal pieces that would pierce their skin if they so much as moved an inch and zero breast support, I think, "this character is a blistering idiot no matter how much the game tries to convince me they're not" * :P Basically, I know that the intent behind those costumes isn't to make the character seem stupid and it's just to titillate or make her "hot", but basically, I can't take them seriously because those designs completely undermine the supposedly competent and intelligent characters.
No joke, Titania is probably my favorite character design in the entire series. Just look at this shit. FUCK.Absolutely. Costume can say so much, I'm amazed at how many make the argument that outfits that are barely-there offer variety, when if there's one trend that says nothing it's the stockings and short skirt on combat characters. Everything from Valkyria Chronicles to Fire Emblem to Trails to Tales and Xenoblade and back again, it's done to death and just screams 'generic sex appeal!' as it's first statement rather than something more interesting.
Speaking of Fire Emblem and the worldbuilding/character background that a costume can suggest, one of my faves is Titania. The surcoat suggests knightly, and the layered outfit of leather, cloth and plate suggests competence, (she used to be a Knight) but what I love is the tiny bit of medieval dress-style-lacing beneath her breastplate. It's such a tiny detail and says so much, it's a single delicate, feminine touch to her costume that is otherwise all sweeping lines and heavy armour. There are several dozen more recent female characters in the series that wear much less, but to me Titania looks recognisable, lovely, feminine and dangerous all at the same time. Sure, that stitching should probably be covered in armour to keep my point coherent, but it's such a nice characterful detail for a fantasy female knight that it takes it past that for me. I imagine if designed today she'd probably be wearing a g-string, stockings and a crop top with a bit of armour on her elbow or something :-)
Yeah, plus gameplay wise she stays relevant the entire game unlike most Juergen types.Thread's become a Titania fan club.
I would like to apply as a member.
Seriously, a mature professional axe-wielding badass who remains relevant through not one, but TWO FE casts? Can't be beat.
Yeah I think I'm gonna stick to this thread now. I did my best but some people aren't interested in discussion and just want to enjoy their jiggling boobs.
Cerys an Craite would be my first nomination.I'd say "let's have an uplifting thread filled with positive examples of good female character design", but I'd be surprised if it got past the first page without something terrible showing up...
Going by past experiences, I'm 100% sure someone would post Quiet and similar examples in the first or second page completely unironically.I'd say "let's have an uplifting thread filled with positive examples of good female character design", but I'd be surprised if it got past the first page without something terrible showing up...
Going by past experiences, I'm 100% sure someone would post Quiet and similar examples in the first or second page completely unironically.
Kat is a tricky one for me. Her design is revelatory for sure, but I also perceive it as more "playful" than sexy? I'm not sure, I don't know what it is about her design that it doesn't immediately scream pandering to me, but perhaps I'm so used to most extreme examples that relatively tamer ones like Kat's seem harmless... She definitely has some alternate costumes that are pandery though.Sure, but I think there are more complicated cases. I love Kat's design and character, I think she's hands down one of the best characters in gaming. But i've seen others that say her design is pandering. So would that fall into what Dary is describing?
I'd say "let's have an uplifting thread filled with positive examples of good female character design", but I'd be surprised if it got past the first page without something terrible showing up...
Kat is a tricky one for me. Her design is revelatory for sure, but I also perceive it as more "playful" than sexy? I'm not sure, I don't know what it is about her design that it doesn't immediately scream pandering to me, but perhaps I'm so used to most extreme examples that relatively tamer ones like Kat's seem harmless... She definitely has some alternate costumes that are pandery though.
Would like to read a woman's take on it for perspective.
But in general, I don't think a character looking sexy necesarily equals a bad design, I think the character's perceived personality, how sexual the design in question is and a lot of other factors come into play. I think Quiet's is bad because it's straight up just a regular looking woman with barely any clothes on, it's not stylized, it's not appropiate for what she does, she's not flirty or sexual herself and has a very stupid in-universe explanation... So yeah it has 0 positive things going on. Bayonetta on the other hand, if I ignore the proccess behind her creation and the way some stuff in the game itself works, it's much better IMO. Bayo is a sexual character, she enjoys being like that, she comes off as being in absolute power of her sexyness and her design is sexy yet very stylized and memorable, and her outfit is even has a role in her fighting abilities.
As another contrast to Bayo, take Ivy from Soul Calibur. She seems to be trying to evoke a similar feel but her design is just tasteless and unimaginative, it's pretty much "very voluptuous woman in the least amount of clothing possible without making her fight straight up naked". Yikes.
I'm on my phone and can't write up a sizeable response. But I just wanted to say, your argument assumes that this perception of women is entirely biological and not societal.One thing people could check to peek in the minds of straight male designers etc
Is to look at Skyrim Modding lol particularly female character/armor designs
Says a lot about straight male sexuality with free reign, no boundaries, unfiltered
I don't think there will ever be a time where characters like Quiet ceast to exist
as long as men are attracted to women.
I'd say "let's have an uplifting thread filled with positive examples of good female character design", but I'd be surprised if it got past the first page without something terrible showing up...
Always go for my girl Chris Lightfellow for great female character/designs:
God she's awesome.
I'm not even a Fire Emblem fan and I have a mild crush on Titania. She looks so fucking cool. :)
Kat shows some skin, but her design is more cute/playful/goofy than sexy/sexualized IMO. I don't think she's objectified, the camera never objectifies her either to my recollection. There's no emphasis on T&A. But she's got some pretty stupid/fanservicey alt-costumes that I never ever equip. :P Raven is a bit more fan-servicey I guess, but it's still relatively tasteful. I'd still ditch the high heels 'cause I hate those :P but, well, she flies, so... w/e. If you had a so-called knight or mercenary dressed like Kat, I'd be rolling my eyes a lot more. For a flying super-heroine type, I'm not bothered at all.Sure, but I think there are more complicated cases. I love Kat's design and character, I think she's hands down one of the best characters in gaming. But i've seen others that say her design is pandering. So would that fall into what Dary is describing?
I really like the design of June in 999:I'd say "let's have an uplifting thread filled with positive examples of good female character design", but I'd be surprised if it got past the first page without something terrible showing up...
I'm getting the game even with my issues with Pyra's outfit. I just don't like that this is going to be a game I know that I won't be able share or talk about as often in public
Saw this on my feed and it reminded me of this thread
Yeah, personally I've kind of given up on threads like this, even when the OP itself is very well informed and made in good faith. More often than not is just one side claiming the oversexualization of female characters is harmful for real life women and the perception of their own sexuality and the other refusing to acknowledge even a single problem in the stuff they consume because hey, they're heterosexual men and see no issues with them tiddies, and would rather not have "every female character be ugly to not offend anyone" lol.
I MADE a thread with at least that intent in mind, but it's been dead a while. You're welcome to have at it, I feel like it probably didn't get many womens' opinions yet.I'd say "let's have an uplifting thread filled with positive examples of good female character design", but I'd be surprised if it got past the first page without something terrible showing up...
I MADE a thread with at least that intent in mind, but it's been dead a while. You're welcome to have at it, I feel like it probably didn't get many womens' opinions yet.
https://www.resetera.com/threads/wh...d-girl-characters-in-games-with-a-twist.3837/
I hadn't even seen this thread and somehow predicted the Quiet vote lmao. I think I'll try posting a more in depth reply there later, but as for cool, non-sexualized female designs, my picks areI MADE a thread with at least that intent in mind, but it's been dead a while. You're welcome to have at it, I feel like it probably didn't get many womens' opinions yet.
https://www.resetera.com/threads/wh...d-girl-characters-in-games-with-a-twist.3837/
This happens in every single thread about these topics and it's so frustrating because it's impossible to have any kind of meaningful debate unless we're able to recognize that a good portion of the media we enjoy has issues.The challenge is talking about the difference between enjoying a good game and recognizing the sexism in the industry generally. This is what I think a ton of people in this thread struggle with, and they contort themselves into all manner of strange positions to justify something they enjoy.
This happens in every single thread about these topics and it's so frustrating because it's impossible to have any kind of meaningful debate unless we're able to recognize that a good portion of the media we enjoy has issues.
I'm more just baffled that people said absolutely nothing about Xenoblade's design issues until 2 and still blissfully make excuses for the previous titles even as they rip into this one.I'm surprised at the reaction to XC2's designs only because so many other franchises have done so much worse, all of them critical darlings. Shin Megami Tensei comes to mind. Final Fantasy is pretty bad too, especially so in XIII, Lightning Returns, and XV. And the Dragon Quest series frequently refers to something called "puff puff," which is a reference to a woman rubbing her breasts on your head. In DQ8, Jessica has a sexiness skill tree that enchants monsters and a number of outfits clearly designed to do little more than titillate.
That said, I enjoy a whole lot about DQ8. Chances are I will give XC2 a try too, mostly because I think the combat system is interesting. The challenge is talking about the difference between enjoying a good game and recognizing the sexism in the industry generally. This is what I think a ton of people in this thread struggle with, and they contort themselves into all manner of strange positions to justify something they enjoy. It's completely beyond debate in my eyes. These games, as good as they might be and as worthy as they might be of your attention, are filled with poor representations of women. For every sex positive representation of a woman that might be acceptable or somehow tongue-in-cheek, there are literally hundreds of examples of female characters used strictly as eye candy, objects of desire, damsels in distress, etc. The point isn't that you can't come up with strong counter-examples, it's that these counter-examples are the exception, not the rule, and sex positive portrayals are always endangered by the culture/ecosystem in which they live. The analysis of sex and gender, especially in America, will always require your attention, sensitivity, and intellect.
I don't think so. The fact is, on XC1 and XCX there is not the half of XC2 pandering. There was 1 or 2 characters and yes, many outfits (still decent ones too). On XC2 you have many female blades full of cliché. Then add the manga style + the fact they are tools for combats and voilà, you got a lot of fanservice compared to previous Xenoblades. I don't think people claim this is new, just too much.they just see Pyra in marketing and pop in assuming this is new.
I did dislike many things regarding this in the original Xenoblade, but I disagree that they're comparable with X2.I'm more just baffled that people said absolutely nothing about Xenoblade's design issues until 2 and still blissfully make excuses for the previous titles even as they rip into this one.
I always thought Xenoblade had some seriously uncomfortable outfit designs and I hardly even notice Fire Emblem's bad designs until the issues are pointed out to me, but people have made it pretty clear that deep down it's not the clothing in Xenoblade games that bothers them but the inability to swap outfits and pretend like everything is OK.
Xenoblade's clothing has always been horrible and I do kinda place a small part of the blame for why 2 is the way it is on the fact that people refused -and still refuse- to admit it. This talk needed to be had way before this and it just wasn't.
But I still like playing Xenoblade games, which is why I even noticed in the first place. I'm not sure how many people in the conversation even know the awkwardness things like Sharla's armors and a whole ton of XCX's armors got into at times, they just see Pyra in marketing and pop in assuming this is new.
So people don't care about the outfits, they care that it's "anime" and about the plot representation.I don't think so. The fact is, on XC1 and XCX there is not the half of XC2 pandering. There was 1 or 2 characters and yes, many outfits (still decent ones too). On XC2 you have many female blades full of cliché. Then add the manga style + the fact they are tools for combats and voilà, you got a lot of fanservice compared to previous Xenoblades. I don't think people claim this is new, just too much.
I'll be honest. For the longest time playing Xenoblade I thought Sharla's default armor had actual pants. The more intricate style plus the somewhat muted colors and low resolution did a lot to muddy the details.But I still like playing Xenoblade games, which is why I even noticed in the first place. I'm not sure how many people in the conversation even know the awkwardness things like Sharla's armors and a whole ton of XCX's armors got into at times, they just see Pyra in marketing and pop in assuming this is new.
I'm more just baffled that people said absolutely nothing about Xenoblade's design issues until 2 and still blissfully make excuses for the previous titles even as they rip into this one.
I always thought Xenoblade had some seriously uncomfortable outfit designs and I hardly even notice Fire Emblem's bad designs until the issues are pointed out to me, but people have made it pretty clear that deep down it's not the clothing in Xenoblade games that bothers them but the inability to swap outfits and pretend like everything is OK.
Xenoblade's clothing has always been horrible and I do kinda place a small part of the blame for why 2 is the way it is on the fact that people refused -and still refuse- to admit it. This talk needed to be had way before this and it just wasn't.
But I still like playing Xenoblade games, which is why I even noticed in the first place. I'm not sure how many people in the conversation even know the awkwardness things like Sharla's armors and a whole ton of XCX's armors got into at times, they just see Pyra in marketing and pop in assuming this is new.