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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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Saw this on my feed and it reminded me of this thread
Yeah, personally I've kind of given up on threads like this, even when the OP itself is very well informed and made in good faith. More often than not is just one side claiming the oversexualization of female characters is harmful for real life women and the perception of their own sexuality and the other refusing to acknowledge even a single problem in the stuff they consume because hey, they're heterosexual men and see no issues with them tiddies, and would rather not have "every female character be ugly to not offend anyone" lol.
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Oh thanks, missed it here completely. Sorry for the trouble. Got distracted by those great pictures of historical central Asia.
All you can do is raise the issue and hope that it gets through to some people. I think you and many others did a good job in that thread to articulate why it's problematic.
I'm getting the game even with my issues with Pyra's outfit. I just don't like that this is going to be a game I know that I won't be able share or talk about as often in public
I think you're right, and despite people not wanting to engage with certain topics it's good to have threads like this that allow open discussion.
When your identity gets tied up in certain fandoms it can be hard to take a critical step back, especially when it's so often completely misunderstood by 'normies.' I totally understand why people buck back against these threads- even people who would otherwise agree with the thesis- but more often than not people just see this as outsiders criticizing what they don't understand.
Hate having to ask this since i'm sure there is an answer I didn't see, is it possible to consume media and not be influenced by it because you know its bullshit, but still enjoy it yet never think of it as the norm and tell others the same? This might come off as a GGer kinda sounding thing since we all know it starts with "Just asking/etc"
Yeah, of course. The only thing you have to remember though is that, well, no one thinks advertising works on them... but, we know that advertising does work, or else it wouldn't be so widespread. So what does that tell us? That oh, I'm special and smarter than others? Or maybe it does influence me in some more subtle, subconscious level? :)
It's, of course, entirely possible to be aware of harmful stereotypes and still enjoy something. Being aware is already half the battle, I'd say.
It reflects trends I've noticed outside of gaming, where people (men) get overly defensive about their escapism of choice to the point of trying to shut down any critique or conversation about it. They "just want to have fun", irregardless of whether or not their "fun" is harming other people.
The thing is, you've been consuming it since you were a child, as has everyone else around you. It has a frightening ability to influence you without you ever realising it.
I mean sure, I enjoy stuff like Persona games and will buy Xenoblade 2 despite knowing they have some very questionable elements that I personally I'm very against. The thing that makes the difference is wheter you criticize these negative elements yourself and/or have a problem with others doing it.
It depends of which bullshit we're talking about too. Like, if you were to enjoy something like Hatred then I'm not sure how "tolerant" others should be of it.
The identity aspect is a very hard barrier to overcome. But you plant the seed. Maybe in time that leads to a new train of thinking.
Remember also a lot of people read but don't post. People who like these games but feel voiceless and marginalized by the discourse. Raising these issues in thoughtful and inclusive ways will make a difference for them.
Sure, we all have guilty pleasures, where depictions become so over the top and ridiculous that they come back around again and become enjoyable. But as Morrigan stated, being aware of those depictions and the ramifications they may have is key. Figuring out where the line between acceptable and not is key. Acknowledging that others may not share your views and can have issues with the depiction is key.
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This is exactly how I view characters too. If a character has a background of wandering the untamed wilderness for months on end in addition to fighting, and hasn't discovered the little creature comforts of good boots, scabbards for weapons, padding under armour and travelling clothes that aren't chafing in all the wrong places, I struggle to be convinced that the character is anything other than a blithering idiot. Red-raw skin around the groin, broken ankles from mountaineering in heels, sunburn/exposure from getting caught in the heat/blizzard in little more than a nightdress and bleeding wounds from decorative metal armour just don't scream 'sexy and smart' to me! :D
Not every character needs to be a veteran adventurer, good storytelling sets all manner of characters on the road with little preparation, but I do think characters looking comfortable in their own outfits helps their backstory if they travel a lot.
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No joke, Titania is probably my favorite character design in the entire series. Just look at this shit. FUCK.Absolutely. Costume can say so much, I'm amazed at how many make the argument that outfits that are barely-there offer variety, when if there's one trend that says nothing it's the stockings and short skirt on combat characters. Everything from Valkyria Chronicles to Fire Emblem to Trails to Tales and Xenoblade and back again, it's done to death and just screams 'generic sex appeal!' as it's first statement rather than something more interesting.
Speaking of Fire Emblem and the worldbuilding/character background that a costume can suggest, one of my faves is Titania. The surcoat suggests knightly, and the layered outfit of leather, cloth and plate suggests competence, (she used to be a Knight) but what I love is the tiny bit of medieval dress-style-lacing beneath her breastplate. It's such a tiny detail and says so much, it's a single delicate, feminine touch to her costume that is otherwise all sweeping lines and heavy armour. There are several dozen more recent female characters in the series that wear much less, but to me Titania looks recognisable, lovely, feminine and dangerous all at the same time. Sure, that stitching should probably be covered in armour to keep my point coherent, but it's such a nice characterful detail for a fantasy female knight that it takes it past that for me. I imagine if designed today she'd probably be wearing a g-string, stockings and a crop top with a bit of armour on her elbow or something :-)
Yeah, plus gameplay wise she stays relevant the entire game unlike most Juergen types.
Is this the Xeno thread that you're referring to, I haven't really looked in there yet.
Nice job trying though, I imagine the response in that thread would be pretty volatile.
I'd say "let's have an uplifting thread filled with positive examples of good female character design", but I'd be surprised if it got past the first page without something terrible showing up...
Like did they even saw a Metal Slug game before because holy shit talk about NOT FITTING the universe
Going by past experiences, I'm 100% sure someone would post Quiet and similar examples in the first or second page completely unironically.
Sure, but I think there are more complicated cases. I love Kat's design and character, I think she's hands down one of the best characters in gaming. But i've seen others that say her design is pandering. So would that fall into what Dary is describing?
Kat is a tricky one for me. Her design is revelatory for sure, but I also perceive it as more "playful" than sexy? I'm not sure, I don't know what it is about her design that it doesn't immediately scream pandering to me, but perhaps I'm so used to most extreme examples that relatively tamer ones like Kat's seem harmless... She definitely has some alternate costumes that are pandery though.
Would like to read a woman's take on it for perspective.
But in general, I don't think a character looking sexy necesarily equals a bad design, I think the character's perceived personality, how sexual the design in question is and a lot of other factors come into play. I think Quiet's is bad because it's straight up just a regular looking woman with barely any clothes on, it's not stylized, it's not appropiate for what she does, she's not flirty or sexual herself and has a very stupid in-universe explanation... So yeah it has 0 positive things going on. Bayonetta on the other hand, if I ignore the proccess behind her creation and the way some stuff in the game itself works, it's much better IMO. Bayo is a sexual character, she enjoys being like that, she comes off as being in absolute power of her sexyness and her design is sexy yet very stylized and memorable, and her outfit is even has a role in her fighting abilities.
As another contrast to Bayo, take Ivy from Soul Calibur. She seems to be trying to evoke a similar feel but her design is just tasteless and unimaginative, it's pretty much "very voluptuous woman in the least amount of clothing possible without making her fight straight up naked". Yikes.
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And then said person would derail the entire thread saying "good was subjective therefore my opinion is right" and yeah, it's sad we can see where such a thread could lead.
Bayo is trickier as there are some good points in a sea of bad ones, admittedly.
To be fair, Ivy's second player costume is legitimately awesome (the left one, obviously):
One thing people could check to peek in the minds of straight male designers etc
Is to look at Skyrim Modding lol particularly female character/armor designs
Says a lot about straight male sexuality with free reign, no boundaries, unfiltered
I don't think there will ever be a time where characters like Quiet ceast to exist
as long as men are attracted to women.
Is to look at Skyrim Modding lol particularly female character/armor designs
Says a lot about straight male sexuality with free reign, no boundaries, unfiltered
I don't think there will ever be a time where characters like Quiet ceast to exist
as long as men are attracted to women.
I'm on my phone and can't write up a sizeable response. But I just wanted to say, your argument assumes that this perception of women is entirely biological and not societal.
Also there's a difference between sexy characters and objectified characters. I don't think anyone here is asking for no sexy characters.
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Always go for my girl Chris Lightfellow for great female character/designs:
God she's awesome.
Always go for my girl Chris Lightfellow for great female character/designs:
God she's awesome.
And, as with Titania, designed by a woman!
I'm not even a Fire Emblem fan and I have a mild crush on Titania. She looks so fucking cool. :)
Kat shows some skin, but her design is more cute/playful/goofy than sexy/sexualized IMO. I don't think she's objectified, the camera never objectifies her either to my recollection. There's no emphasis on T&A. But she's got some pretty stupid/fanservicey alt-costumes that I never ever equip. :P Raven is a bit more fan-servicey I guess, but it's still relatively tasteful. I'd still ditch the high heels 'cause I hate those :P but, well, she flies, so... w/e. If you had a so-called knight or mercenary dressed like Kat, I'd be rolling my eyes a lot more. For a flying super-heroine type, I'm not bothered at all.
Sexualization isn't necessarily about the amount of skin shown. One of the creepiest examples of sexualization is the fully clothed "monk" from Dragon's Crown. It's not the skin shown in this case, but the pose, the skin-tight "armour" (with the boob cups lol), the emphasis on her crotch, and how she moans in "pain"... it's just the cringiest thing. The weirdest part though is the why. It's blatant sexualization but I can't imagine anyone who thinks "this is hot" or anything. It's just so weird and cringy.
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I even KNEW this just screwed up when I typed it here... But her, for lack of better words, respectable designs would explain a lot....
Me too; too big a fan of, literally just about everything else the series does. But man, some of the shitty designs for the Blades are really disappointing.
Good lord it really leaves little to the imagination.... not even responses to that twitter post are very enthusiastic.
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I MADE a thread with at least that intent in mind, but it's been dead a while. You're welcome to have at it, I feel like it probably didn't get many womens' opinions yet.
https://www.resetera.com/threads/wh...d-girl-characters-in-games-with-a-twist.3837/
Gotta admit, I had to laugh when someone's answer to "[Which] woman has the clothes that look the most epic?" was Quiet.
As of 2017, satire truly is dead.
I hadn't even seen this thread and somehow predicted the Quiet vote lmao. I think I'll try posting a more in depth reply there later, but as for cool, non-sexualized female designs, my picks are
Impa from Zelda: Skyward Sword
Regretfully whitewashed but still cool alternate incarnation present in Hyrule Warriors:
Agrias from Final Fantasy Tactics
Argilla from Digital Devil Saga
Yuriko from Shin Megami Tensei
Nemissa from Devil Summoner: Soul Hackers (the one on the left)
I'm surprised at the reaction to XC2's designs only because so many other franchises have done so much worse, all of them critical darlings. Shin Megami Tensei comes to mind. Final Fantasy is pretty bad too, especially so in XIII, Lightning Returns, and XV. And the Dragon Quest series frequently refers to something called "puff puff," which is a reference to a woman rubbing her breasts on your head. In DQ8, Jessica has a sexiness skill tree that enchants monsters and a number of outfits clearly designed to do little more than titillate.
That said, I enjoy a whole lot about DQ8. Chances are I will give XC2 a try too, mostly because I think the combat system is interesting. The challenge is talking about the difference between enjoying a good game and recognizing the sexism in the industry generally. This is what I think a ton of people in this thread struggle with, and they contort themselves into all manner of strange positions to justify something they enjoy. It's completely beyond debate in my eyes. These games, as good as they might be and as worthy as they might be of your attention, are filled with poor representations of women. For every sex positive representation of a woman that might be acceptable or somehow tongue-in-cheek, there are literally hundreds of examples of female characters used strictly as eye candy, objects of desire, damsels in distress, etc. The point isn't that you can't come up with strong counter-examples, it's that these counter-examples are the exception, not the rule, and sex positive portrayals are always endangered by the culture/ecosystem in which they live. The analysis of sex and gender, especially in America, will always require your attention, sensitivity, and intellect.
That said, I enjoy a whole lot about DQ8. Chances are I will give XC2 a try too, mostly because I think the combat system is interesting. The challenge is talking about the difference between enjoying a good game and recognizing the sexism in the industry generally. This is what I think a ton of people in this thread struggle with, and they contort themselves into all manner of strange positions to justify something they enjoy. It's completely beyond debate in my eyes. These games, as good as they might be and as worthy as they might be of your attention, are filled with poor representations of women. For every sex positive representation of a woman that might be acceptable or somehow tongue-in-cheek, there are literally hundreds of examples of female characters used strictly as eye candy, objects of desire, damsels in distress, etc. The point isn't that you can't come up with strong counter-examples, it's that these counter-examples are the exception, not the rule, and sex positive portrayals are always endangered by the culture/ecosystem in which they live. The analysis of sex and gender, especially in America, will always require your attention, sensitivity, and intellect.
I think most notably bad examples of this stuff in games nowadays do form even a small bit of controversy at the very least, but of course it depends a lot of how popular the game is to begin with. FFXV did get some flak and with Xenoblade it's inevitable as it's a Nintendo-published game. Dragon Quest and SMT are non-existant to the majority of western players, I guess.
This happens in every single thread about these topics and it's so frustrating because it's impossible to have any kind of meaningful debate unless we're able to recognize that a good portion of the media we enjoy has issues.
It's the same thing you see when talking about racism. It's hard to get people to acknowledge the problem exists because it brings up so many painful realities. On a psychological level, somewhere deep down, I think people do understand. It's a matter of persistence, not intelligence.
I always think of James Baldwin when I hit roadblocks like that: "I imagine one of the reasons people cling to their hates so stubbornly is because they sense, once hateis gone, they will be forced to deal with pain." Replace "hate" with "biases" and you're in roughly the same territory.
I'm more just baffled that people said absolutely nothing about Xenoblade's design issues until 2 and still blissfully make excuses for the previous titles even as they rip into this one.
I always thought Xenoblade had some seriously uncomfortable outfit designs and I hardly even notice Fire Emblem's bad designs until the issues are pointed out to me, but people have made it pretty clear that deep down it's not the clothing in Xenoblade games that bothers them but the inability to swap outfits and pretend like everything is OK.
Xenoblade's clothing has always been horrible and I do kinda place a small part of the blame for why 2 is the way it is on the fact that people refused -and still refuse- to admit it. This talk needed to be had way before this and it just wasn't.
But I still like playing Xenoblade games, which is why I even noticed in the first place. I'm not sure how many people in the conversation even know the awkwardness things like Sharla's armors and a whole ton of XCX's armors got into at times, they just see Pyra in marketing and pop in assuming this is new.
@FFT Agrias pic posted above:
See, this is badass. I'm okay with people having their naked, massively tittied waifus if there's room for awesome designs like this, but the otaku pandering (I don't say this in a derogatory way - there is a reason why Japanese designs have shifted in the way they have) is making these designs become an increasingly rare sight. If there was any semblance of balance, you'd have people complaining less, but just look at what happened to Fire Emblem.
See, this is badass. I'm okay with people having their naked, massively tittied waifus if there's room for awesome designs like this, but the otaku pandering (I don't say this in a derogatory way - there is a reason why Japanese designs have shifted in the way they have) is making these designs become an increasingly rare sight. If there was any semblance of balance, you'd have people complaining less, but just look at what happened to Fire Emblem.
I don't think so. The fact is, on XC1 and XCX there is not the half of XC2 pandering. There was 1 or 2 characters and yes, many outfits (still decent ones too). On XC2 you have many female blades full of cliché. Then add the manga style + the fact they are tools for combats and voilà, you got a lot of fanservice compared to previous Xenoblades. I don't think people claim this is new, just too much.
Personally that's not what I expected from a Xenoblade Chronicles. I'll still play and hope to enjoy it but this is a thing that can prevent my immersion.
I did dislike many things regarding this in the original Xenoblade, but I disagree that they're comparable with X2.
Xenoblade had Sharla, a young adult woman whose default outfit while showing more skin than the other characters (I guess?) it still resembles what a regular person would wear in summer. She behaves and looks like an adult, this is important. The big majority of her outfits are absolutely atrocious and worse then Pyra's, but they are optional, they're terrible, but you can go out of your way to ignore them (thank god).
Robo girl is kinda terrible and is clearly designed to be attractive and sexy, but her default look is still better than Pyra's, while her alternate ones actually kinda resemble Pyra's. Melia is pretty tame and I like her look but her other clothes are bad too.
Pyra is seemingly not an adult, has an infantilized look and yet has noticeably large breasts, dresses like she works at the in-universe version of Hooters and in general has a very innocent and non flirty aura about her despite these design choices. But more importantly, the game clearly wants you to look at her as a sexual object and thus the camera seems to focus on her a lot during cutscenes, I mean, this is one from one of the first pieces of official art:
And of course, she wears a thong too.
My issues with Pyra would be mostly gone if she were an adult who actually acts sexy as part of her personality, but not only is she stupidly sexualized but she's a stupidly sexualized /teenager/, which makes it all the more difficult to ignore.
And none of this even touches on how she's essentially a living weapon for the male protagonist to battle with, she's the literal meaning of objectification lol.
So people don't care about the outfits, they care that it's "anime" and about the plot representation.
And the plot representation is an issue unique to XC2 that's a conversation worth having - but people are only complaining about the outfits, and if the artstyle is the only difference there then the priorities there are still pretty badly skewed.
And nearly every non-cosmetic armor in XCX was horrendous, there weren't flailing boobs like XC2 but clothing wise there was easily more than half amount of pandering by volume because that's what pretty much everything except the default costumes and casual wear was. I legitimately struggled to find something tolerable to put my avatar in other than the default prior to playing copious sidequests just to unlock proper clothes.
The first game had less (more male party members and a granny aged princess, you know?), but it still had an awfully large amount and in it's case there was no cosmetic armor to hide it. It was either have bad stats or worse armor.
*EDIT* And I'm pretty darn sure Pyra is an adult and people are being thrown off by her eyes being too cute for them. That's it. Throw a blindfold on that and she gains five years.
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I'll be honest. For the longest time playing Xenoblade I thought Sharla's default armor had actual pants. The more intricate style plus the somewhat muted colors and low resolution did a lot to muddy the details.
To be fair, a lot of it has to do with how this game has been marketed compared to the last two. Xenoblade Chronicles had to be campaigned to be brought over here so anyone who was going to get the game was probably not going to be that critical in the first place. X had fanservice but more focus was put on the faces and the marketing was more focused on the Skells. The outfit customization also help hide some of the more eregious cases. 2 on the other hand has had the Rare Blade campaign as its main marketing not to mention Pyra is front and center and harder to ignore. So naturally people are going to notice the fanservice a lot more.
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