This thread is full of actual women talking about their own feelings. It's ridiculous that we get dismissed while men like you come in and say "some women are okay with it though."
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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This thread is full of actual women talking about their own feelings. It's ridiculous that we get dismissed while men like you come in and say "some women are okay with it though."
I feel like I'm in a time loop with these people. This is really how is goes, huh? Finish one conversation, another one who doesn't even want to even look at the previous page yet thinks somehow that he knows all the answers repeats the exact same thing the previous one did.
Also, side note, where is your avatar from?
1) A number of my wlw girl friends love these sorts of designs. That doesn't mean there aren't ALSO a lot of women who don't. That's what the topic's for, for people to discuss sexualized designs in games and learn how to improve to appeal to and better represent them. The topic title never meant to insinuate all women feel the same.
2) In one case it was confusion as it looked like it wasn't actually sarcasm referring to another user's rude post. In others, it was people NOT being civilized, as far as I could see. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I wouldn't dare tell you all of the above isn't the most ridiculous whataboutism I've read in weeks, indeed. A minority can't call attention to the fact they're being routinely killed by cops, because other minorities are suffering other forms of oppression? Black Lives Matter being about ignoring all other forms of racial oppression? I truly have no words.
Sure, back on topic: your "male sexualization too!" and "we're all people" are every bit as toxic, disruptive and unhelpful to women as the above is to black people.
You don't want people yo ruin your fun, but you tell others to stop playing video games?
Not at all. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Like I said, a civilised discussion is ok. Its ok to disagree. Just dont be a dick doing it lol.
can you direct us to a post that was unfairly warned / banned for merely holding a civilized discussion of an opposing opinion?
Shantae (Although it came out late December and this year on Switch)
"It's just girls on the beach! That's normal!"
The irony would never occur to them...
By the way, while Mortal Kombat X pulled it off, I think altering some female designs in Japanese games would lead to screams of censorship, boycotts, getting people fired, and all of those nice things some people do :P Can you imagine if Mai looked like this again?
Heads would roll. Same for Capcom trying to pull this off again:
Heads would roll. Same for Capcom trying to pull this off again:
And there are people of color in America that think racism isn't an issue, what's your point?
The people being warned aren't being warned for disagreeing.
I totally agree with you. Its ok to discuss your feelings. Im just saying that people to disagree shouldnt be silenced also as long as its a friendly discussion.
Did...did anyone here actually say this though? If anyone is coming here with declarative statements it's you.
My point is that everyone has opinions and should be able to discuss them freely. As long as you aint being a jerk about it. Thats all.
Why are you so dismissive of other people?
Every time you hop into this thread or ones on this issue you seem very upset that the topic is even being discussed.
Well, just telling you how I've seen things go in this thread. The topic doesn't say ALL women, and I don't think anyone here has made a claim that they are speaking for all women, but somehow we end up with people telling us that we can't speak for all women, some of them like Ivy's design, also who cares, or just play something else, etc.
It shouldn't be difficult to provide receipts for your statement that this thread is somehow stifling discussion. Warnings are clearly marked with reasons.
Not at all. Im just saying that this is a forum, for discussion and people should be able to do so. As long as people aint being assholes then discussion shouldnt be silenced.
No man Im not upset. Everyone has the right to say what they want. As long as they are being respectful.
Personally, I feel like that's a step up from the Pirate's Curse (even though I also think the gameplay from Pirate's Curse is better gameplay wise), 1/2 Genie Hero didn't turn up the fanservice as hard as Pirate's Curse did with multiple levels with extra fanservice sprinkled in because...uh...zombies need jiggle physics? Which, again, speaks to how low the bar is.
By the way, while Mortal Kombat X pulled it off, I think altering some female designs in Japanese games would lead to screams of censorship, boycotts, getting people fired, and all of those nice things some people do :P Can you imagine if Mai looked like this again?
Heads would roll. Same for Capcom trying to pull this off again:
And Mortal Kombat X DID have the most pathetic of outrages when the changes were announced, remember? This is how low the bar is. Kitana wearing a slightly less revealing outfit than her previous one. The bar is so low, that it is under the ground and yet people are still coming up with any excuse to not cross it. Its pathetic.
You're being disrespectful by derailing the thread with "But not all women care" posts.
Nioh
Marvel vs. Capcom
Breath of the Wild
Injustice 2
Tekken 7
It's kind of amazing that every example you posted is from a game that Biggui4yew assured us was "free from sexualization".
Oh god, "anything I'm missing" :D . I can't stop laughing.
But yeah, you know, start with the above. :)
I don't understand how this is not bannable, but whatever. I won't stoop to your level; I'm content with seeing your hilarious cluelessness publicly exposed.
Not reading the OP or any of the discussion up to this point and barging in with the very same arguments that have been refuted over and over and over (and over) as if it was some kind of divine inspiration is being a fucking massive asshole.
Just saying'.
Yeah, posting short quick snarky statement in an attempt to be clever doesn't do much for your own statement of being respectful. You clearly need to read your own advice.
Im not being disrespectful to anyone. Thats not my intention here. Just having a discussion.
Anyways, Im about to hop off here for the night. Thanks for the chat.
Oh my god, coming in here and saying "not all women have this opinion" is the same as the "not all men" argument.
We already know that 100% of women don't have the same opinions, because duh. But just because I am more tolerant of stupid fanservice doesn't mean I can't stand with those who absolutely hate it. If I can help other women be more comfortable in their chosen hobby then I will.
We already know that 100% of women don't have the same opinions, because duh. But just because I am more tolerant of stupid fanservice doesn't mean I can't stand with those who absolutely hate it. If I can help other women be more comfortable in their chosen hobby then I will.
Snarky? No man. And being clever? No, not at all. I mean, have you seen some replies in this thread? Cmon. Anyways, Im off for the night. Take care.
I still can't get my head round it. Why do games need this shit? What purpose does it serve? It doesn't affect the gameplay or narrative. It's literally just there to titillate one half of the audience at the expense of the other.
I repeat:
Otherwise get out of here with your strawmen.
I swear I've ignored more people because of this thread than in all the rest of Resetera so far combined.
I'm glad some dude got to come in here and make the same basic and unnecessary "You can disagree just be respectful" post about 10 times without providing any evidence of the grave injustice he was attempting to point out.
I think my least favorite part of Pirates Curse, I haven't played any other games in the series, was how every girl in the game has the same body artwork. Basically the same as reusing the same model in a 3D gane. All the guys in the game were different to the point that they looked nothing like but every female had the same skinny waist, wide hips and large chest.
I think this has become more of an issue because of how good graphics have gotten.
You really didn't hear about this back in the 8/16 bit era.
Maybe I don't play enough video games or have become de-sensitized but I hardly notice it
If people are concerned, why don't you get in touch with developers and voice your opinion.. we are more connected to content providers now then ever
If games started covering up more, I wouldn't care and I think most people wouldn't either
You really didn't hear about this back in the 8/16 bit era.
Maybe I don't play enough video games or have become de-sensitized but I hardly notice it
If people are concerned, why don't you get in touch with developers and voice your opinion.. we are more connected to content providers now then ever
If games started covering up more, I wouldn't care and I think most people wouldn't either
I'm curious, how do you expect to make a difference in sexualization of certain games?
It can feel good to air out all of your grievances on a forum, but at the end of the day this discussion has been going on for over a 6 years, and the developers who want to take that criticism to heart (Bioware, Naughty Dog, Guerilla Games) have been taking steps to do so because it is what they want to do with their female characters, primarily western developers.
What incentive does a developer like for example Wayfoward (Shantae Developers) or Harada ( creator of Tekken) have to change their games when most of the criticism is just coming from forums, and one forum in particular ( most of the discussion on these topics is on ResetEra, previously on GAF, other forums aren't receptive to this kind of topic).
Especially when the games are still massively successful like Tekken 7, Nier Automata, Persona 5, FFXV, Overwatch, Injustice 2, etc, in spite of how some may feel about sexualization.
The rest of the series doesn't get better in that regard, unfortunately, both past and present.
I still can't wrap my head around these dudes (emphasis on dudes) feeling the need to post in this thread to tell us what women feel or don't feel, when they could be listening to actual women telling us directly what they feel. As someone who highly values when people in very different situations to mine give me their perspectives (I mean, it's precious knowledge I can't get any other way!), this is both mindboggling and so very depressing. We're unfortunately used to men not listening to women, but this truly is some next level shit of shutting them down. This needs to stop now.
Some are OK, but I don't understand redesigning someone like Morrigan since the hyper-sexualistion of her design is the point of her character since she is a succubus.
Well for one, the games I'm developing are not going to have it.
But any voice that is loud enough will be heard. Tekken had a controvery over Lucky Chloe for this exact reason.
https://kotaku.com/why-everyones-freaking-out-over-a-controversial-tekken-1669473004
Nioh
Marvel vs. Capcom
Breath of the Wild
Injustice 2
Tekken 7
I'm talking strictly about these examples and the camera work, not the outfits, but do all of these really count as "zooming in" just because there's female characters in the shots? Would any of these exact camera shots feel any different if male characters were in their place? To me, no. I don't see anything wrong with these shots camera-wise.
Yes, the camera is moving around the characters to show them off, but none of these come off as explicitly pandering. When people talk about "zooming in" these are the types of shots I imagine (and dislike)
and feel cheap and out place depending on the context.
I don't feel the ones you posted are very good examples. Some of the outfits are maybe another issue, but not the camera.
Titillating the audience has been a cornerstone of the Shantae series since the beginning. Even on the Game Boy the women were large-chested and wearing revealing clothing. That's Shantae as much as the gameplay or narrative are.
So I understand and generally speaking agree with the idea that scantly clad muscle dudes are just as much or more male power fantasies as objectification.
But what I haven't yet discovered is what exactly a female power fantasy would look like. Bonus points if she's scantly clad, since male power fantasies can be and often are such.
But what I haven't yet discovered is what exactly a female power fantasy would look like. Bonus points if she's scantly clad, since male power fantasies can be and often are such.
Sure, but that illustrates my point a little bit.
Harada mocked the gamers who wanted Lucky Chloe changed because he had no incentive to change her design.
So I've seen Tekken mentioned in this thread as a game that should have the sexualization timed down, but when the creator of the game dosent want people asking him to change stuff because of complaints...
And the series he directs is massively successful and loved, how do you expect to change his mind and come to your side?
I mean, there was that Wonder Woman movie that was just released. And many of the same people complained about how Wonder Women is shot on camera in Justice League. It's just as much about the camera as it is about the outfit.
HyperFerret HypedBeast Lucky Chloe was primarily criticized not for anything sexual but because a lot of people saw her as "too cute" or "not fitting Tekken". They didn't want an idol in their game about tough men knocking each other over the head.
I definitely agree her design is sexualized, but that wasn't what the issue was.
I definitely agree her design is sexualized, but that wasn't what the issue was.
It definitely still cropped up back then. I remember playing the original Killer Instinct with my dad, picking Orchid, and feeling so ashamed when I saw character model. However, the problem definitely got a lot worse in the late 90s. I have scans from a 1997 PlayStation Magazine issue that talks about the problem.
It does feel like there have been a lot of positive changes over the last few years, in spite of characters like Quiet and Pyra. It's hard to imagine Ubisoft making a character that dresses like Shahdee now. Hopefully, we'll see more great character designs in the future.
Lucky Chloe is just an ugly design. People don't take issue with Xiao or Asuka.
Also a female power fantasy is literally Wonder Woman.
Sure, but that illustrates my point a little bit.
Harada mocked the gamers who wanted Lucky Chloe changed because he had no incentive to change her design.
So I've seen Tekken mentioned in this thread as a game that should have the sexualization timed down, but when the creator of the game dosent want people asking him to change stuff because of complaints...
And the series he directs is massively successful and loved, how do you expect to change his mind and come to your side?
By having discussions like this, spreading awareness, and being critical. In some cases, I won't buy the game if I feel it's particularly skeevy, but in Harada's case he's basically the only show in town for 3D fighters.
I agree, I was making a broader point that not every creator is going to be receptive to demands by critics, even if it is heavy criticism.
I hate Lucky Chloe, I was in the thread calling her moe idol shit. But do you think Harada cares? Hell no!
This applies to a lot of autuers(Kojima, George Kamitani, Yoko Taro) who have a lot of cred in the industry, so I posed the question to HyperFerret, how do you change their minds?
I just did a quick GIS for a few of the games that Biggui4yew said had "zero sexualization." I definitely think there are worse examples from games released this year.
I don't need every creator to change their mind. I just want more games with non-objectified characters.
One does not change their minds. They will continue to auteur as they please.
Potentially the market could shift, if sufficient games without their brand of pandering come out and are more monetarily successful, to cause publishers to grant them less budget etc. However, that is not the goal of the discussion topic.
The goal is to get people who have never considered what they are doing to do actual planning of characters. This increases the quality of characterization and art, as design is given actual intent that contributes to game theme, and results in a more cohesive product.
I just wish more games would take the dark souls approach. Real armor. No boob-plates. There are some dresses, but they look the same on male or female characters. I also hate when game armor just looks like it is part of the character's skin. It is lazy design.
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