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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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Ya, that's because you took me out of context and directly attempted to reduce my comments to "screaming".
There seemed to be something of a vendetta tone to it as well, very personal. Like I should be punished.
No thanks bro.
I remember many people saying things like "I don't care that it shows skin. I care that it looks stupid" about that Mobius guy.Also, redesign based on "fan feedback"
like, I remember in GAF the same people that said there was nothing wrong with sexualized women criticized the FF Mobius guy.
As if "it looking stupid" is not actually a big part of why people criticize characters like Quiet.
Do a large majority of movies wedge neo Nazi's into them? Do you think a person that finds neo Nazi characters distasteful would have a difficult time finding a movie that doesn't include one as a main character?
Your analogy isn't exactly analogous...
Basically, you are telling people who don't want an entire gender to be treated like trash to just leave the hobby (or play a tiny section of games that doesn't include the majority of genres).
It doesn't really matter what you think, though. This thread is about women's perspectives on character designs.
From reading through the thread, I don't think many were looking to stop certain visions, even if harmful? There was more of a move towards looking to reshape the paradigm a bit.
I'm happy to concede for some artistic directors the field bikinis may be essential and the core of their game (maybe FFXV was actually just a subplot to Cindy's thong?), but I think there's more at play and it wouldn't really hurt to think a bit more on how representation is.
I think it's also been touched on quite a few times why the 'don't play that particular game' argument doesn't really work.
Definitely. Society as a whole could benefit from looking at representation more. It's kind of hard because a lot of this is ingrained in people and people are pretty complacent (not excluding myself from this point either). Threads like this are a great opportunity to hear voices which often get shunned (and still are... as can be seen from this thread).
Those who don't particularly want objectified women in their games are given pretty slim pickings and risk complete erasure if they don't engage. If we push towards the logic here of 'don't buy if you don't like' it would end up with corporations going 'well no women are buying our games so no need to cater to them!', instead of viewing engagement with such a market as a possible great new opportunity.
One costume Capcom accidentally stumbled on vs... how many main of the women character designs/promo art pieces/dlc costumes?
Aside from that, there's a reason it hit so many headlines... because seeing such a sight was a real rarity.
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Surely, that's a rhetorical question. It's not off-putting to you, it's off-putting to Encephalon (and many other people).
Just because it's not as bad as some other videogame kind of shows how bad female character design is overall, that there are so many examples.
If fanservice is going to be so pervasive and unavoidable in videogames, at least give the options to not have to deal with it.
Surely, that's a rhetorical question. It's not off-putting to you, it's off-putting to Encephalon (and many other people).
Just because it's not as bad as some other videogame kind of shows how bad female character design is overall, that there are so many examples.
If fanservice is going to be so pervasive and unavoidable in videogames, at least give the options to not have to deal with it.
this pic is honestly so funny because both guys are wearing black and the guy on the right is even wearing a sleeved jacket while the girl is almost naked. Either they're both sweating their balls off or she's about to freeze to death. Or maybe there's some selective weather going on.
And let's go back to SFV (since the original poster has not been arguing in good faith anyways), SFV changed some of the camera shots to be less focused on one of the woman's ass in one of the Super's and fan reaction was disgusting. Equating it to "censorship" and producing this lovely image:
because clearly, the removal of .2 seconds of ass slapping meant we wanted the entire costume gone. So yeah, I'd say people did care a lot about fanservice.
May I ask why? Is it because she's designed for the male gaze? I don't think SE is trying to make a statement regarding women's role in society.
They're playing into historically sexist tropes, whether they realize it or not.
Her design isn't any more ridiculous than Gladious's design.
My questions is how off-putting it is to be exact.
What sexist trope are they playing into? That women are sex objects? Sorry if you've already answered this but there's 48 pages and I've only just got into it now.
Get Gladio in the shot and it all balances out. Shorts down south is normal and they were shooting for that kind of look with her. Doesnt excuse that famous zoom up her ass gif but the outfit itself is in line with the male giggolo in the game
Completely honest question because I haven't played the game: how many female characters vs. male characters are there in the game, and how many sexualized female characters vs. sexualized male characters? Like, what's the percentage of sexualized female characters compared to the percentage of sexualized male characters?
What the fuuuuuuck. Why do you think it only comes down to "being offended"? I'm not really one to get offended, but I can be disappointed, bored, bothered etc. Like is this how you reply to all game criticism? "Stop being offended."
Gamer™: complains about screen tearing and other graphical issues in video games
me: STOP BEING SO OFFENDED REEEEE
I don't think they're trying to make a statement at all, no. But I think they're making one anyway. They're saying that women are meant to be ogled and enjoyed by straight men, and that's it. I don't think I'll be able to find it now, but during one of Square's streams for the game before release they were talking about fan responses and how many European fans especially didn't like Cindy's character design. (This was in the survey results after the demo.) One of the Square guys commented that they didn't understand what the issue was, since people wanted more female characters in the game since the whole main party is male. Like any woman who was included in the game only existed to be cheesecake.
And from a selfish perspective, it reminds me that I'm not the audience for the games I like and no one really cares what I think. Which makes me feel like crap. I'll see people wax poetic about the gaming community, but I've never felt like a part of it. I don't know if I ever will as long as games literally feel like they're pushing me away. It was so disheartening as a kid to just want to play as a girl who wasn't a princess and/or didn't have huge breasts covered in tissue paper. I'm glad things are better for kids today, but it's still not great.
Edit: If you want to debate Gladio vs. Cindy go back to the FIRST FIVE PAGES OF THIS THREAD THAT YOU ARE ALREADY IN because it was already discussed.
Definitely more male characters, and they're allowed to have more depth too. Cindy is absolutely the worst, and the other female character designs are fine. There are some female NPCs with stupid designs too, though. Can't find a better picture right now:
It's a town where only women work in an energy plant (who knows why. "empowerment" I guess.). In the game, they have a top to the jumpsuit too but it's unzippered. Some of them have full tank tops on. It's dumb.
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Not a rarity, costumes like this and similar ilk have existed for about 10 years now. The only real difference was the fact he had a beard, Ryu running around with a top on in pants is nothing new for a character in either SF or most fighting games. And Capcom (like woman) actively used that sex appeal.
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So yea, "man with top off and big muscles", pretty much par for the course in most fighting games. Something obviously jives here, but it wasn't by rarity of sexualized men. Most likely a particularly well done one.
Its an open world RPG so most of the time you are looking at the cast, and Gladio is one of the main characters. One of the members takes pictures of your day to day life and you can literally end every "day" worth of saved game with glory shots of him all over your screen in action. I think the percentage figure is hard to come up with subjectively, but I only recall Cindy and some badass lady whos less exposed but the armor has gaps being the controversial ones
Throughout history, women have been given the role of caretaker, child bearer, and a domestic housewife, subservient to her husband. We've been taught that you have to be pretty to please a man, that you should smile, that you should just "deal with it" when guys harass us or treat us as objects for sexual pleasure. Video games are a reflection of this, regarding this specific topic. Female characters are used as tools for sexual stimulation, because girls should be sexy and pleasant to look at and that's all they're ever good for. Women in video games are treated as less than their male counterparts, through degradation and the lessening of their role to "tits and ass". Because that's what the male consumer base wants (because video games are for boys) and that's what's viewed as socially acceptable.
Obviously not all games do it, but we're specifically talking about objectification and why it happens.
FFXV on the man area has Gladio. On the woman area has Cindy, Aranea, and for some reason half the female workers in Lestlalum are in hot pants and top tanks.
EDIT: That SF V pic lmao
One shows biceps.
Other shows cleavage, ass and thighs. Completely comparable.
On the subject of SF the cast has always had males in basically thongs or underwear too, but they arent portrayed making sensual poses I would think in part because its difficult for men to behave in that manner without coming accross as try hard or creepy. Male sexyness seems to be a more subtle thing, one that I personally havent got a clue how to convey. Women themselves are the embodiment of the most beatufil part of humanity in my opinion, but its nice to see a balance for sure with a display of strentgth on the female gender in games exceeding the show of beauty.
That really sucks and I totally get where you're coming from. It seems the dev team behind FF15 doesn't understand the market outside of their own otaku Japanese market. I will admit I was annoyed to find out FF15 had an all male party since I was frustrated with how few female characters are in gaming anyway. It was even more annoying when they announced Cidney as if her presence made up for the lack of female characters. It's like the devs think people only wanted female characters because they wanted to fap to them which is so obviously not the case that I can't help but wonder why they didn't realise that.
Ignoring side quest and generic npcs, there are like 10 dudes of all ages and there are 5 women of all hot and young.
Gladio is the only guy that can be even remotely described as sexualized and the camera and other characters certainly don't focus on him like that. On the other hand, three of the five gals are sexualized. Cindy is the worst offender by far and the camera and characters absolutely sexualize her, Aranea is definitely to some extent but her design got toned down and walks that line of being badass at the same time and it actually fits her character so while it's there it's not as eye-sore-y, and then another turns into a summon/goddess by shedding all her clothing and being practically naked so yeah lmao
Thanks for explaining. I totally see where you're coming from here.
Hopefully the market can demand better change.
Literally the beginning of the game, as you push the regala the camera totally focuses deep on his ass lol
Don't play me like that one camera shot that had all the guys pushing a car together is anywhere near Cindy washing the regalia, though.
Oh no, that wasnt a redemption claim at all dont get me wrong. I mentioned on a previous post that the popular cindy ass shot scene is unexcusable in fan service regard
But that's the thing, that's really the only scene I can think of that gets even close to ogling Gladio, and it's not even the same? Like, it's all the guys pushing the car together and he happens to be the one closest to the camera. They don't exactly lovingly focus on his ass like how they focus on Cindy's boobs.
Honestly, male and female sexualization works completely different and is inherently "unequal". As this thread shows, nobody gives a shit about topless dudes. It doesn't count, it's not the same. Make a topless female character and you're creating porn, have her breasts covered but show cleavage and it's fanservice. It's significantly easier to sexualize female characters thanks to those pesky secondary sexual characteristics, isn't it? And then even attractive dudes (like Raiden) wearing close to nothing tend to come off as comical more than titillating.
"Objectification" is basically how male sexuality works in the first place, show some pent up dude completely contextless tits and ass and you're going to get a reaction. I'm not an expert on the field but this is not how things work for a majority of women and what they want from sexualized males. Combine this aspect with my first point and there you have it: the world in which female characters get sexualized more often than males, which the women in this thread hate so much. And authorial intent basically didn't even enter the picture at this point, this kind of "injustice" is baked into society and human sexuality from the start.
The only course of action that could eradicate this injustice is a complete erasure of fanservice of any kind and that's just not going to happen. Criticize away, sure why not, but you're not going to convince dudes en masse that exaggerated boob physics should not be enjoyed and purged from existence >:(
Like, the aspect of futility of this whole argument is so strong, I honestly feel kind of bad for anyone arguing in good faith.
But that doesn't happen. They are pushing a car. The camera doesn't focus on his ass. Like, at all. In fact, his butt is barely in the shot.
The way people talk about Gladio in these conversations you would thinks that his pants tightly clung onto his giant dick and the camera locked onto it during half of the cutscenes (which would actually be the equivalent of how women are often portrayed in these games). Gladio's depiction isn't even close to Cindy's. They are miles away.
Not everyone arguing against the widespread objectification of women in games in this thread is a woman.
'Complete eradification of fanservice' is an extreme compared to a more realistic goal of 'better, more varied depictions of female characters'.
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This thread is fucking groundhog day. I really commend the regulars here for having the stamina and resolve to keep calmly explaining the same basic things over and over to the photocopied schmucks that don't bother reading the thread or even the OP and regurgitate the same fallacious arguments over and over. I simply can't muster the patience or energy today.
I could do a flow diagram at this point, it wouldn't be complicated:
1) "Why women dislike sexualization"
2) Pick one:
2.a) "But not all women have this opinion" said a man stating the obvious and ignoring the multiple women opinions in the thread.
2.b) "But men are sexualized too" said a man ignoring the 100 to 1 ratio and assuming the likes of Kratos are sexualization.
2.c) "But why do you care" said a man as if that wasn't the point of the thread and explained in the OP and throughout the thread.
2.d) "But I don't care" said a man, proud of his lack of empathy, "and therefore neither should you".
2.e) "But games shouldn't cater to one demographic" said a man implying that treating the female characters the same as the male ones is somehow aiming at a 'demographic' rather than a broader appeal (and hypocritically / self-unawarely ignoring games being laser-focused on one demographic).
2.f) "But not all games have to cater to all demographics" said a man completely bypassing the OP that makes the point that like 80% of games sexualize women, leaving women with one fifth of the games if they were to avoid sexualization.
2.g) "But creative freedom / don't take away our tits" said a man as if the OP was arguing for the magical, wholesale removal of all and every sexualized woman (as if that was remotely possible) rather than asking for a semblance of balance.
3) Explanations.
4) Man: "Just having a discussion here" / tone policing / different opinions card.
5) Further explanations.
6) Pick one:
6.a) Man is exposed for the concern troll he is, everyone ignores him.
6.b) Man leaves unconvinced, when he realizes his opinions, which he thought groundbreaking, aren't causing an epiphany on anyone.
7) Go back to 2)
I could do a flow diagram at this point, it wouldn't be complicated:
1) "Why women dislike sexualization"
2) Pick one:
2.a) "But not all women have this opinion" said a man stating the obvious and ignoring the multiple women opinions in the thread.
2.b) "But men are sexualized too" said a man ignoring the 100 to 1 ratio and assuming the likes of Kratos are sexualization.
2.c) "But why do you care" said a man as if that wasn't the point of the thread and explained in the OP and throughout the thread.
2.d) "But I don't care" said a man, proud of his lack of empathy, "and therefore neither should you".
2.e) "But games shouldn't cater to one demographic" said a man implying that treating the female characters the same as the male ones is somehow aiming at a 'demographic' rather than a broader appeal (and hypocritically / self-unawarely ignoring games being laser-focused on one demographic).
2.f) "But not all games have to cater to all demographics" said a man completely bypassing the OP that makes the point that like 80% of games sexualize women, leaving women with one fifth of the games if they were to avoid sexualization.
2.g) "But creative freedom / don't take away our tits" said a man as if the OP was arguing for the magical, wholesale removal of all and every sexualized woman (as if that was remotely possible) rather than asking for a semblance of balance.
3) Explanations.
4) Man: "Just having a discussion here" / tone policing / different opinions card.
5) Further explanations.
6) Pick one:
6.a) Man is exposed for the concern troll he is, everyone ignores him.
6.b) Man leaves unconvinced, when he realizes his opinions, which he thought groundbreaking, aren't causing an epiphany on anyone.
7) Go back to 2)
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First, if you have read the thread you would have noticed that no one is asking for complete removal of fanservice.
Second, this argument is not futile, because devs has already commented how about , for example, Anita videos, or the talk about this subject on forums have helped them to get a new vision for their projects. So there's nothing futile at all, raising awareness ALWAYS works. Sometimes more, sometimes less, but it does.
And, objectification doesn't work the same for everyone (and seeing bare tits or ass is not objectification), same as how sexualization can have diferent degrees for diferent men. Like, some men may get a boner seeing Pyra from Xenoblade 2, where some others may find it completely comical, offputing or disgusting.
Also, what men find sexy or not is irrelevant, because finding something sexy or not doesn't mean you want that everywhere.
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I don't know if people are purposely obtuse or they really can't tell an actual sexualized male character. Here's a little test for everyone - only one of these characters is sexualized:
Did you get it right? :P
Heh, you could add 'makes argument that games shouldn't cater to one demographic', a) as if treating the female characters the same as the male ones is somehow aiming at a 'demographic' rather than a broader appeal and b) keeping a straight face while defending games that are pretty much laser-focused on one demographic at the moment.
If some people would rather the discussion went away, they could be waiting a while. I'm quite devoted to talking about this for the long haul, what's been interesting is seeing a lot of great perspectives in this thread, half a dozen of which could have been threads in their own right.
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As a straight man, I prefer Zangief. So I'd say the bottom one is sexualized. I wouldn't want to play as him.
It's funny because not a week ago, Zangief was exactly the example I used to tell people why buff, shirtless guys don't automatically mean sexualized. :D
As a straight dude and speaking out of ignorance, I would urge people to look at the faces. If the face looks like a model from a male fashion magazine, then yeah, you might be onto something. If it looks like someone called Bubba you met in jail... probably not so much. Extra minus points if they seem like someone pissed in their porch or they're going through a terminal case of constipation.
Oh yeah, that too. Also "all games don't have to cater to everyone, pick a game you want" when it's right there in the OP that sexualization is in like 70% of games.
Hell, I'm going to edit it. Might as well be thorough, especially if it can be used to point new lemmings to it instead of having to enlighten them individually.
But all that means is no fanservice.
When it comes to characterization there is no appreciable difference in quality of writing of your average videogame dude and your average videogame girl. Quiet is arguably the only character worth a damn in MGSV but thanks to her outfit she's still just the worst. So really, it all comes down to "fanservice is bad". And since equalizing male and female fanservice is not a realistic solution (because they work inherently different as I described in my last post), getting rid of fanservice in general is all that's left.
No, it doesn't come down to no fanservice, that's a massive simplification compared to everything else discussed in the thread. Do you really think Quiet wouldn't still be sexy and attractive without the ridiculous costume? Of course she would. Perhaps a better summary might be 'less fanservice completely derived of context would be good', or 'fanservice as part of the medium rather than a default for female leads' . There is no reason for Quiet to be in that outfit when male characters with the same condition don't take up arms in their speedos. At that point, you're also killing the storytelling, worldbuilding and character background just to have tits and ass, when really you can have all four with a bit more thought rather than fanservice being the priority over and above everything else when you have a mixed audience. Fanservice in context comes in for a lot less flak than Cindy and Quiet, and its worth thinking about why.
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How about a little more diversity as an option? Because, at the end of the day, a game having a character that is heavily focused on fanservice, but also having many other important, interesting, non-sexualized female characters, will get a LOT less flack. Though, admittedly, a character like Quiet is so obnoxious that she is always going to draw a huge amount of negative attention.
Right, but it still doesn't make it acceptable and should be criticized accordingly.
I think one thing some here are missing is that despite how you see objectification and whether it bothers you or not, one thing is clear: in some genres of games it's EVERYWHERE. You like having sexy girls in game? Cool, have them, but do they have to be so prevalent?
People like their sexy stuff, that's normal, so all artistic mediums have material that seek to please that, but why is it so commonplace in games? Do you not find it weird that genres that have absolutely nothing to do with sex are always plagued of this stuff? Those DOA Extreme games make sense, but why do we have to deal with this crap in Xenoblade 2?
There's no balance, it's straight up unnerving. Imagine if you liked a genre of music that has no direct relation to sex, and one day out of nowhere all new albums in the genre start including lyrics with women talking about how much they want to fuck this dude. That's what playing modern JRPGs feels like.
How we perceive or whether we like fanservice or not doesn't matter, the thing here is that fanservice is far too common in our medium and there's no reason for it to be.
I can accept that some games may want to include some sexy stuff, but the fact that in so many games the presence of women has to be accompanied with sexy outfits, dialog and outfits is disturbing. And that's not even touching on how humiliating it is to women trying to enjoy their hobby or how it corrupts men's already distorted perception of women.
People like their sexy stuff, that's normal, so all artistic mediums have material that seek to please that, but why is it so commonplace in games? Do you not find it weird that genres that have absolutely nothing to do with sex are always plagued of this stuff? Those DOA Extreme games make sense, but why do we have to deal with this crap in Xenoblade 2?
There's no balance, it's straight up unnerving. Imagine if you liked a genre of music that has no direct relation to sex, and one day out of nowhere all new albums in the genre start including lyrics with women talking about how much they want to fuck this dude. That's what playing modern JRPGs feels like.
How we perceive or whether we like fanservice or not doesn't matter, the thing here is that fanservice is far too common in our medium and there's no reason for it to be.
I can accept that some games may want to include some sexy stuff, but the fact that in so many games the presence of women has to be accompanied with sexy outfits, dialog and outfits is disturbing. And that's not even touching on how humiliating it is to women trying to enjoy their hobby or how it corrupts men's already distorted perception of women.
Would the depiction of this female character be less sexy without tits and ass? Is that what people call a trick question
And that's why this thread exists :P Imagine what it'd be like if 90% of male characters were deisgned with the exact same design philosophy as the bottom picture.
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