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julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,289
You know we should really have a "don't read before sleep" thread tag. Some of the things itt really throw me off balance. It's one thing to be in the presence of people untrained on the topic and its details, but seeing continued and sustained resistance in a space where such big efforts are made to explore these discussions, it's so disheartening.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,190
UK
I most certainly am not saying that. Of course sexism really exists. So does racism.
The argument is whether sexism is ingrained in our society to the point where it effects everyone.
I disagree. I see no evidence to support that.
You see no evidence to support sexism is ingrained into our society, really?
Patriarchal societal norms? Boys club privileges? Do you have any qualitative data that proves such things to exist?
Do you live in a gender equal utopia where these don't exist? I mean dozens of statistics could be dropped, but for you to not even acknowledge patriarchy exists needs more explanation.
 

Windrunner

Sly
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,500
Oh, I see. You're right that I'm uneducated on that subject. It's because I've literally never met anyone that plays phone games. You're probably the only person I've ever even seen who can even name phone games, let alone play them. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Do you live in a cave? I see men and women playing puzzle and strategy games on their phones everyday on the train.
 

LunarEmerald

Member
Oct 27, 2017
234
Or maybe the mods are being "biased" because we've had the exact same pattern happen for the last 54 pages over and over and over and over and over and over and over again and it's completely obvious to everyone involved.

That really isn't a good reason. There is no actual rule breaking going on. It's just people not liking what other people have to say on the matter. A discussion is about conflicting opinions. Right now I'm seeing a circlejerk where people all with the same mindset want to pool together and not deal with anybody that wants to argue with them. The worse part is, the mods are contributing to that. I really don't think this kind of attitude is good for Reseteta.

I completely disagree that they're unrelated. It's the exact argument that violent video games create violent people. They don't. Video games with scantily-clad girls doesn't cause guys to sexually harass women. That kind of harassment has existed long before video games.
 

Senjy89

Member
Oct 25, 2017
49
If you would take a hot minute to actually look into the issue instead of being disingenuous on this forum, you'd find plenty of truth to the fact that sexism is prevalent in modern society. Here are three papers that took about 15 seconds to pull up in Google.


Sexism and racism: Old-fashioned and modern prejudices.

Prejudice and discrimination against women has become increasingly subtle and covert (N. V. Benokraitis & J. R. Feagin, 1986). Unlike research on racism, little research about prejudice and discrimination against women has explicitly examined beliefs underlying this more modern form of sexism. Support was found for a distinction between old-fashioned and modern beliefs about women similar to results that have been presented for racism (J. B. McConahay, 1986; D. O. Sears, 1988). The former is characterized by endorsement of traditional gender roles, differential treatment of women and men, and stereotypes about lesser female competence. Like modern racism, modern sexism is characterized by the denial of continued discrimination, antagonism toward women's demands, and lack of support for policies designed to help women (for example, in education and work). Research that compares factor structures of old-fashioned and modern sexism and racism and that validates our modern sexism scale is presented. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2016 APA, all rights reserved)

Excuse Me—What Did You Just Say?!: Women's Public and Private Responses to Sexist Remarks
Two studies illustrate women's struggle between their desire to challenge sexism and the social pressures and costs that lead to not publicly responding. In Study 1, 45% of the women confronted a man who made a sexist remark and only 15% did so directly. Confronting was most likely to be chosen by women actively committed to fighting sexism in their daily lives. Private responses illustrate that a lack of responding was not necessarily indicative of complacency about the remarks or a lack of thoughts about confronting. The results from Studies 1 and 2 reveal that diffusion of responsibility, normative pressures to not respond, social pressures to be polite, and concern about retaliation likely suppressed responding.

Everyday Sexism: Evidence for Its Incidence, Nature, and Psychological Impact From Three Daily Diary Studies
Three daily diary studies were conducted to examine the incidence, nature, and impact of everyday sexism as reported by college women and men. Women experienced about one to two impactful sexist incidents per week, consisting of traditional gender role stereotypes and prejudice, demeaning and degrading comments and behaviors, and sexual objectification. These incidents affected women's psychological well-being by decreasing their comfort, increasing their feelings of anger and depression, and decreasing their state self-esteem. Although the experiences had similar effects on men's anger, depression, and state self-esteem, men reported relatively fewer sexist incidents, suggesting less overall impact on men. The results provide evidence for the phenomena of everyday prejudice and enlighten our understanding of the experience of prejudice in interpersonal encounters from the perspective of the target.

The funny part is that you know he's never going to respond to this.
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,963
Some people seem to want to center the conversation around the idea that sexism in gaming isn't really a problem because they don't observe it and, hell, they don't know many girls who play video games anyway.

But, here's an idea, if you don't feel that sexism in gaming is a problem, because you don't observe many girls playing games anyway...maybe center the conversation around why that might possibly be.

After all, there are female gamers.

Many of them, believe it or not, are on ResetEra and participating in this very thread. Trying to explain their experiences and their position within this male-dominated space.

Try listening.

Also, that was a warning.
 

zoukka

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
2,361
Oh, I see. You're right that I'm uneducated on that subject. It's because I've literally never met anyone that plays phone games. You're probably the only person I've ever even seen who can even name phone games, let alone play them. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm sorry but you must live in extraordinary situation since most people own phones and most of those people play games on them.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
The evidence is that a bunch of women have experienced sexism therefore society as a whole is sexist towards women?
I'm actually being dead serious here. I haven't seen any instance of women being at an systematic disadvantage in todays modern society.

I cannot believe what I'm reading. It's kind of amazing how you started with "questions" yet dropped even the concern trolling charade more and more as time went on. Sorry but I don't buy you're actually that much of a cloudcuckoolander anymore; this has to be disingenuity so I'm putting you on ignore.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
Men absolutely have advantages over women in greater society with very few trade-offs for women. The patriarchy is absolutely a thing and how it has shaped social interactions and gender roles where one gender is getting shafted more than the other.

Mansplaining on the other hand is a concept I'm still trying to wrap my head around, and while I am learning, I don't think I'll ever fully be able to understand it (obviously being a guy is a part of that). Right now, my view is pretty similar to this tweet. And anecdotally, I've never seen anyone talk down to women that doesn't ALSO talk down to men. Not to say my experiences take precedent over anyone else's of course, just giving me own account.
 

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,606
Wait, ZORK IS ON MOBILE!?! WHY DIDN'T NOBODY TELL ME?
I choose to believe that, unlike a number of other posters in the topic, you are entirely sincere. XD
Lost Treasures of Infocom by Activision Publishing, Inc.
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/lost-treasures-of-infocom/id577626745?mt=8

Oh, I see. You're right that I'm uneducated on that subject. It's because I've literally never met anyone that plays phone games. You're probably the only person I've ever even seen who can even name phone games, let alone play them. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
This is just a suggestion. But perhaps you should GET educated before saying that "phone games" are shit.
 

NicasDream

Member
Oct 30, 2017
41
Some people seem to want to center the conversation around the idea that sexism in gaming isn't really a problem because they don't observe it and, hell, they don't know many girls who play video games anyway.

But, here's an idea, if you don't feel that sexism in gaming is a problem, because you don't observe many girls playing games anyway...maybe center the conversation around why that might possibly be.

After all, there are female gamers.

Many of them, believe it or not, are on ResetEra and participating in this very thread. Trying to explain their experiences and their position within this male-dominated space.

Try listening.

Also, that was a warning.
I honestly think guys want their own thread about male sexism in
video games because most of our arguments are "we deal with this too" except women deal with it way fuckin more
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,544
Where else are you going to play games? On your phone? Aren't phone games a complete joke, and most of them are full of microtransactions and ads? I don't consider anyone that only plays phone games to be a gamer, regardless of gender.

Sure there are a lot of shitty mobile games that exist purely to squeeze money out of people ala Dungeon Keeper, but there are also plenty of fantastic mobile games. The whole "you're not a real gamer unless you play X' is incredibly shitty gatekeeping. Just because so called hardcore gamers aren't the target audience doesn't make something less of a game.
 

Htown

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,320
I honestly think guys want their own thread about male sexism in video games because most of our arguments are "we deal with this too" except women deal with it way fuckin more
Guys want their own thread about male sexism to exactly the same extent that white people actually want to discuss the fact that all lives matter. AKA, they actually don't, because the entire point is to shut down discussion instead of having one.
 

Suede

Gotham's Finest
Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,516
Scotland
I'm sorry that this bothers you so much. Personally I don't know many women that play console video games. So I don't really understand the perspective. All of the women I know spend time playing games on their phones and their tablets. I shop; a lot. I spend a great deal of time talking to other consumers and enthusiasts that are buying video games. They are pretty much all dudes. And when it is women, 7 out of 10 times they are buying for someone else. I had a lovely 15min conversation with a young mother just the other day that wanted to know all the ins and the outs of the Switch so she could buy one for her children.

If you want to boil it down to its most simplest nature, video games are made by guys, for guys. They are the ones driving the vast majority of the revenue on console game sales.

If there were more women buying console video games I'm sure that you'd see more console games for women. It's kind of a catch22.
Just because you haven't met many women who play console video games, doesn't mean that's how the rest of the world is. The world is very big and isn't just the area you live in. There are also statistics out there that prove that there are a large amount of women who play on consoles, almost half of the population of console gamers are women.

I see MaskedNdi already provided some links.
 

Jade

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
116
Definitely society in general, that's obvious. Probably related to video games as well.

In that case, no, I don't believe in that kind of stuff. I'm taking my own lifestyle as an example. My hubby supports me financially, I've never had a job, and hopefully never will. How would this lifestyle be possible if I was a guy? I'm GLAD that I'm a woman, not the other way around, lol.
 

Aniki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,805
The guy didn't say that. He said that he didn't believe that sexism is ingrained in society. I think it's understandable for someone to believe that. They probably worked hard to get to where they at. Of course, what they don't realize is just how much harder someone of a different race/gender would have to work to get to where they're at, or just how much more they would have to put up with.

But that the pay gap still exists proves that sexism is ingrained into society. It also doesn't take away from his achievements to acknowledge, that he has a lot of privileges as a men.

Just think for example how woman are treated who sleep with many men. They are still stigmatized as sluts. While men who do the same with the opposite sex are seen as desirable.
Just making that claim that it's not ingrained into society comes of as condescending.
 

LunarEmerald

Member
Oct 27, 2017
234
Re-read this statement. Realize just how bad of a statement it is, and then take a break.

And you go on with whataboutery. "What about movies?" "What about tv shows?" "What about Playboy?" This thread isn't about those things. This thread is about video games.

I realize that and I'm basically saying video games are the very tip of the iceberg.
 

zoukka

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
2,361
I never take studies seriously regarding anything. Studies say all kinds of things. I would say that movies and television would be a far bigger factor than video games. When it involves actual people. Thinking about it. You could probably place a lot of the blame on "playboy" that really popularized the whole thing.

Umm.. yeah. That's one way to be stubborn I guess. And why are you dodging this so hard, sure video games aren't the first or the biggest culprit but still a significant one and this is a forum centered around video game culture.
 

Mr. Blue Sky

Member
Oct 25, 2017
366
It's been said here before but those who continue to argue for the side of women have the patience of a saint. As a dude just following this thread in the background for the most part some if these circular responses popping up every few pages are tiring to read.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
In that case, no, I don't believe in that kind of stuff. I'm taking my own lifestyle as an example. My hubby supports me financially, I've never had a job, and hopefully never will. How would this lifestyle be possible if I was a guy? I'm GLAD that I'm a woman, not the other way around, lol.

good for you but I'm majoring in a STEM field and I've been told I'm not as capable as my male peers just because I'm a woman. but fuck me as long as you're happy depending on a man I guess
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
It's been said here before but those who continue to argue for the side of women have the patience of a saint. As a dude just following this thread in the background for the most part some if these circular responses popping up every few pages are tiring to read.

To say the absolute least. To quote myself from a couple cycles ago:

This thread is fucking groundhog day. I really commend the regulars here for having the stamina and resolve to keep calmly explaining the same basic things over and over to the photocopied schmucks that don't bother reading the thread or even the OP and regurgitate the same fallacious arguments over and over. I simply can't muster the patience or energy today.

I could do a flow diagram at this point, it wouldn't be complicated:
1) "Why women dislike sexualization"
2) Pick one:
2.a) "But not all women have this opinion" said a man stating the obvious and ignoring the multiple women opinions in the thread.
2.b) "But men are sexualized too" said a man ignoring the 100 to 1 ratio and assuming the likes of Kratos are sexualization.
2.c) "But why do you care" said a man as if that wasn't the point of the thread and explained in the OP and throughout the thread.
2.d) "But I don't care" said a man, proud of his lack of empathy, "and therefore neither should you".
2.e) "But games shouldn't cater to one demographic" said a man implying that treating the female characters the same as the male ones is somehow aiming at a 'demographic' rather than a broader appeal (and hypocritically / self-unawarely ignoring games being laser-focused on one demographic).
2.f) "But not all games have to cater to all demographics" said a man completely bypassing the OP that makes the point that like 80% of games sexualize women, leaving women with one fifth of the games if they were to avoid sexualization.
2.g) "But creative freedom / don't take away our tits" said a man as if the OP was arguing for the magical, wholesale removal of all and every sexualized woman (as if that was remotely possible) rather than asking for a semblance of balance.
3) Explanations.
4) Man: "Just having a discussion here" / tone policing / different opinions card.
5) Further explanations.
6) Pick one:
6.a) Man is exposed for the concern troll he is, everyone ignores him.
6.b) Man leaves unconvinced, when he realizes his opinions, which he thought groundbreaking, aren't causing an epiphany on anyone.
7) Go back to 2)
 

LunarEmerald

Member
Oct 27, 2017
234
Umm.. yeah. That's one way to be stubborn I guess. And why are you dodging this so hard, sure video games aren't the first or the biggest culprit but still a significant one and this is a forum centered around video game culture.

Have you never seen studies that say x is good for you and another says that it's bad for you. Studies don't really prove anything and are heavily subjective from small sample sizes. That's why I don't pay attention to studies.
 

Mr. Blue Sky

Member
Oct 25, 2017
366
In that case, no, I don't believe in that kind of stuff. I'm taking my own lifestyle as an example. My hubby supports me financially, I've never had a job, and hopefully never will. How would this lifestyle be possible if I was a guy? I'm GLAD that I'm a woman, not the other way around, lol.
I'm being a bit reductive in summing up my life here but I'm a guy who's currently mainly supported by his girlfriends full-time job so such a lifestyle isn't exactly exclusive to women.
 

Chaparral

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
787
Canada
This thread really goes to show how frustrating this conversation is, especially to the women who work and play in gaming. The same run around bullshit, either from ignorant or more in likely, disingenous arguments, people get heated until a mod steps in, repeat.

Like at what point do you have to believe that sexism in gaming is a real thing? Because people have been dumping study after study, ancedotal and physical evidence, and people are still ignorant. Really, Htown is right in this assessment:

Guys want their own thread about male sexism to exactly the same extent that white people actually want to discuss the fact that all lives matter. AKA, they actually don't, because the entire point is to shut down discussion instead of having one.

By this point, if you are trying to go into a thread nearly 60 pages deep and either trying to be ignorant or disingenous, then more often then not, you're shutting any sort of discussion down. And that's what is really pissing me off about these discussions, and I especially assume is pissing off the women of ResetERA.
 

ilium

Member
Oct 25, 2017
477
Vienna
Always wondered how some people - in a community capable of finding information about a demon's fusion state under specific moon phases on obscure japanese wiki entries from 1999 or similar - seem unable to find anything about this thing called 'sexism'...
Not that there are whole bodies of research inquiring - yes even qualitatively - into exactly these and related matters.
 
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Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,384
Have you never seen studies that say x is good for you and another says that it's bad for you. Studies don't really prove anything and are heavily subjective from small sample sizes. That's why I don't pay attention to studies.
Basically what you're saying is that all studies have equal value and thus, since there are conflicting views, that must mean that all studies are inherently worthless. The following gif illustrates the problem with that logic:
uZC5fF9.gif


The 1 study that says that they do doesn't equal the million that say that they don't.
 

kliklik

Member
Oct 26, 2017
330
Oh, you are right with this, but this is simply the result of capitalism. I don't believe it's a result of "sexism" or anything like that. It's all about money, and this path brought the most money to the big companies.

Here's an interesting link to a news article talking about a study of why people leave the tech industry.

The gist is that women leave tech at a 45% higher rate than men and the predominant reason cited was unfair treatment. Some due to sexual harassment. The majority stated that they would return if the poor workplace culture were fixed.

Note that these findings apply to black people too, and some other minorities in the industry.

So I think it's fair to say that women have left tech for reasons beyond just not being interested in developing the male-geared products. Additionally, it's been proven pretty recently with movies that female-helmed properties are big moneymakers. It's simple logic that a novel product and an underserved market equals profits. There's something more than a detached economic calculation that's holding us back from greater representation of women, catering to women's interests, and marketing to women.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Always wondered how some people - in a community capable of finding information about a demon's fusion state under specific moon phases on obscure japanese wiki entries from 1999 or similar - seem unable to find anything about this thing called 'sexism'...
Not that there are whole bodies of research inquiring - yes even qualitatively - into exactly these and related matters.

The joys of willful and malicious ignorance is what causes it.
 

Chaparral

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
787
Canada
Always wondered how some people - in a community capable of finding information about a demon's fusion state under specific moon phases on obscure japanese wiki entries from 1999 or similar - seem unable to find anything about this thing called 'sexism'...
Not that there are whole bodies of research inquiring - yes even qualitatively - into exactly these and related matters.

If they are doing this, they are either being ignorant or trying to derail discussion. But yes, it makes any sort of change in this industry frustrating.
 

Jade

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
116
I'm being a bit reductive in summing up my life here but I'm a guy who's currently mainly supported by his girlfriends full-time job so such a lifestyle isn't exactly exclusive to women.

Interesting. But I assume this is a temporary thing, and you're supposed to find a job soon or something? Certainly you can't stay in that situations for very long term, like me? Because it's not exactly the same thing, then...
 

LunarEmerald

Member
Oct 27, 2017
234
Basically what you're saying is that all studies have equal value and thus, when there are conflicting views, that must mean that all studies are inherently worthless. The following gif illustrates the problem with that logic:
uZC5fF9.gif


The 1 study that says that they do doesn't equal the million that say that they don't.

You're the one assuming it's a million versus 1. Because that kind of hyperbole makes it easy to prove your point.
 

Bear Patrol

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,043
You're the one assuming it's a million versus 1. Because that kind of hyperbole makes it easy to prove your point.

And you're assuming it's not but you're being no better according to your own standards. You haven't provided a shred of proof and are instead taking a stand based on...what? Anecdotal evidence? A desperate need to stick your head in the sand and pretend that gaming/society in general doesn't have a problem with sexism?

I'm going to go with the last because anybody who says "That's why I don't pay attention to studies." is not the kind of person to be swayed by logic.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
You're the one assuming it's a million versus 1. Because that kind of hyperbole makes it easy to prove your point.

Ok, then it falls on you to provide the proof that studies are far more even than what was stated. It doesn't fall on them. You wanted proof of sexism, they showed you multiple studies (and continue to show you multiple studies) of sexism in the gaming and tech industry. You cannot then say "studies are false" without any backup. It's disingenuous and arguing in bad faith.
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,963
You're the one assuming it's a million versus 1. Because that kind of hyperbole makes it easy to prove your point.

That may be so, but vastly more evidence has been provided supporting the fact that sexism in Gaming and Tech is real, observable and problem than there has been proving otherwise. You have yet to provide anything in the way of data to back your claim.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,384
You're the one assuming it's a million versus 1. Because that kind of hyperbole makes it easy to prove your point.
I mean you can find a metric fuckton of studies today talking about sexism not only in modern society as well as various others around the globe but also in societies that existed more than a millenia ago. Like, I don't understand how you and others are trying to deny this. Especially considering the context of this medium and a very sizable portion of the audience's reaction to basic feminism let alone more nuanced discussions about it.
 

CenturionNami

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,230
When I see a sexaulised male character, i'm like "Damn, that's fucking hawt." Same thing with a female character. Best example would be MGS, yeah the designs are very fan servicey, but I appreciate the sexiness of both genders,
maxresdefault.jpg

4fdc5e289901da45ff5b821af8f658f0--post-metal-character-design-references.jpg
 

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,606
You know we should really have a "don't read before sleep" thread tag. Some of the things itt really throw me off balance. It's one thing to be in the presence of people untrained on the topic and its details, but seeing continued and sustained resistance in a space where such big efforts are made to explore these discussions, it's so disheartening.
Some tags that have applied for all of the internet with regard to video games: girl, female, women, girlfriend, wife, woman, feminism.
Spend too much time reading threads with any of those words in the title and your brain cells may be permanently injured.
Welp. there goes my Thanksgiving. Thank you.
You are very welcome! I'm glad to help. Don't get eaten by the grue. (Wait, that's zork, right? I woke up a troll and died).
 
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