Callout culture: How would you react if someone close was accused of reprehensible behaviour?

hydrophilic attack · Nov 18, 2017

My sister shared with me screenshots of a Facebook post she made. Apparently a close friend of hers has been accused of sexual misconduct by two people. (I don't know who it is myself and I don't know the details of the allegations) And she describes a situation where she has been called out by many people for still being his friend. Large parts of his social circle has dissociated from him completely, without even asking for his version of the story. She says that she believes the story of the women. But that she also thinks there might be truth to his story that he wasn't aware that what he did was wrong. Misunderstandings and a general rape culture (which finally is discussed openly) makes it so that two people can view the same events differently. My sister says that she will stay his friend. And that she will continue to attempt to make him better understand the concept of enthusiastic consent. I think her reasoning is that this person can be redeemed, and that leaving him completely friendless would not help him on a path to redemption.

Have you ever been in her situation? What did you do? What do you think about callout culture in social media where you are expected to immediately and publicly make a binary decision on people who are close to you? More and more, I am starting to think that my ten year old decision to stay off of most social media was the correct one.

Golden_Pigeon · Nov 18, 2017

If there is multiple allegation, in our rape culture where it's a taboo, you can bet there is some element of truth in it, so i would confront directly my friend about this and if he wouldn't be able to give me a satisfactory answer i would immediately cease my friendship with him.

I never lived through this actually, and i want to believe that none of my friends would done that and if they would, they will be repentant about it and not indulge into victim-blaming.

Rape-culture is not an excuse, we all know that it's wrong, we just decide to indulge in it or not, to our benefit (as men). "I didn't knew it was wrong" is not an ethical principle.

The closest thing that happens to me was a high-school friend who was a "far-right in the closet". When the word got out, he immediately lose almost all of his friends (including me).

LegendofJoe · Nov 18, 2017

My cousin went to prison for a few years for almost beating a man to death. The guy was an ex of his at the time girlfriend and he was threatening and abusing her. He took things way too far which is why he went to prison, but the guy deserved to have his ass kicked.

I wasn't mad at him, I was just scared that he might spend decades in prison because the guy barely survived. Thankfully, he lived and my cousin only ended up serving 4 years. He is now married to the same girl, gainfully employed, and they have a son together.

oledome · Nov 18, 2017

When I heard something about a close friend of mine I had a good talk with him, two people seeing events differently and he needed to understand the other side of it. It wasn't serious enough to where I would end the friendship, he's been my friend for a very long time and I hope he learnt from his mistake and hasn't made it since. It's easy to drop someone you don't know and it's easy to have a binary perspective behind a keyboard.

Faustek · Nov 18, 2017

The woman in question didn't want to call the police for fear of what would happen to her life so I called him. He didn't acknowledge it and said she loved it deep down. A few words, a lot of words some physical threats to me so I beat him.
We're not friends anymore.

Arkestry · Nov 18, 2017

I think this is a really important question, and one that doesn't have an explicitly 'right' answer.

On the one hand, if these allegations are true, the guy has done some unacceptable things that he should be rightly condemned for, and doesn't deserve anyone's forgiveness or acceptance for his actions. Even if he didn't believe what he was doing was wrong, these people have been wronged, and that's what matters.

However, on the other hand, if we, as a society, ostracise everyone accused of misconduct, from the extreme to the everyday, we're going to create a lot of anger that is going to manifest in all sorts of ugly ways. We really need to find a way to improve things, hold people accountable, without completely destroying those accused. Hopefully they will by and large want to improve themselves, and have the determination and self-awareness to actually achieve that, although that seems like a tall order.

Servbot24 · Nov 18, 2017

It depends on the misconduct. I think it's fair of her to give him the benefit of the doubt if it's something like giving an unwanted compliment. If it's any kind of physical abuse then she should cut ties immediately.

1000 Needles · Nov 18, 2017

I won't go into details, but I had a friend do something very reprehensible. I struggled for awhile with how to react.

Ultimately, I decided to stand by them because they admitted their guilt, and took responsibility for their actions. And they were repentant. If they weren't any of those things, I'd probably have disassociated.

ghostemoji · Nov 18, 2017

I'm not in the business to abandoning my friends, and I'm not above calling them out or putting them in their place when they're wrong. I'd expect and hope I'd receive the same treatment from them.

I think most of us would agree that we have friends that we love and support unconditionally, and it would would say a lot about my character to abandon that friend in that moment. How they handle the situation determines whether or not I can continue to be their friend. My role as a friend is to provide this person the support and counseling I can. Friends aren't just about good times, they're about giving advice and lending hands. What they do in response to that advice will determine a lot about our relationship going forward. My friend has a responsibility to the victim and anyone else associated with the scenario. It's my role to make sure my friend addresses those responsibilities, whether that is an apology, or it's going to the police, whatever it is.

We don't live in a world full of black and white decisions, we have to do what we can with what we have. A lot of this changes if I, or a close friend/family member is the victim. Keeping control of your emotions isn't always a reasonable expectation.

Chamaeleonx · Nov 18, 2017

I expect the response to be:
"Dumb them and hit the gym" just like all problems =P

Honestly, if you know the people and have a bit of understanding of humans you can weight who is correct and if you really should cut contact. I would look for the truth and be understanding while trying to correct the behavior of the person. Simply dumping them is the easy way, but in today's society the only way most people know. Because, well you always can switch out people, be it friends or relationship, right?

Critical thinking really helps in these situations. Keeping calm and approach the situation without much emotions.

Obviously there are situation where you should cut contact.

Luchashaq · Nov 18, 2017

One of my closest friends lost his job/scholarship/girlfriend after being arrested and wrongfully accused (we had footage of him at a party 90 minutes away during the time of the "attack"). After his suicide I would basically need video evidence if someone else close to me was accused. Probably stupid of me but I'm being honest.

CanUKlehead · Nov 18, 2017

My dad was accused of some nasty stuff. Stresssd him the fuck out, probably cost him a few years of his life. Of course he was acquitted, but for months his (our) life was hell.

Ppl who already didn't get along with him of course abandoned him, but the community rallied around him. Still, shitty couple of years. Made me want to fly home, quit my job, and crusade for him.

He was very forgiving (my girlfriend wanted my dad to countersue, so they don't do ot to someone else), but I wasn't.

goodsines · Nov 18, 2017

Personally I feel like it's important to judge these sort of situations on a case-by-case basis. It's not black and white, there is definitely a spectrum of "misconduct" and it's up to people in his friend circle and others to understand that and determine where this particular misconduct falls.

I don't know all the details of the situation, but it sounds like complete ostracization is not helpful. It seems like that's a lot of people's go-to decision to make and that's always been an issue I've had with call out culture...there are situations where it's definitely appropriate to ostracize someone and encourage distance between someone and a group, then there are others where there's unfortunate misunderstandings made, or the offense is not particularly big and maybe a different course of action would be more appropriate.

I had a friend for instance on Facebook who posted a status update where a friend of his said something transphobic and because of him working most of the day and missing the comment, other friends called him out and basically layed into him for being silent, even after explaining he was not online to promptly deal with the transphobic shit his friend said. Some of those people still refuse to speak to him months after that, which is a little ridiculous to me given the circumstances.

Hard to say whether your sister staying his friend is the best decision, but regardless of that he's gotta put some work into proving he isn't a shitbag. Some people deserve chances to redeem themselves and make amends, others don't.

Chamaeleonx · Nov 18, 2017

Luchashaq said:
One of my closest friends lost his job/scholarship/girlfriend after being arrested and wrongfully accused (we had footage of him at a party 90 minutes away during the time of the "attack"). After his suicide I would basically need video evidence if someone else close to me was accused. Probably stupid of me but I'm being honest.

Being skeptical and thinking critical is never stupid. Especially if you have serious reason to doubt someone. It is easy to ruin someones live over one false sentence and doom them forever.

Gennady · Nov 18, 2017

Honestly, i would count to 20 and be willing to lend my ear to him. For the rest i would wait on a judge's opinion on the matter before rendering my own judgement.
PS. Jagten("The Hunt" in US) is a good movie!

Tonedeff · Nov 18, 2017

I've had a few situations with friends and family doing reprehensible shit and it always comes down to evidence for me. If its undisputable, depending on the crime, they're gone from my life, but if there's some doubt, I'd at least hear them out. Fuck that insta-kill shit. It's real easy to do when you don't know the person.

Deleted member 835 · Nov 18, 2017

I have been called out and had to be questioned by police etc. My family stuck with me for the months on bail, eventually I was cleared as the woman who did it lied.

On of cases, when it is just one person I will wait and see what happens. But when the person has a past or it is more then one then that person deserves to be pushed away.

sabrina · Nov 18, 2017

hydrophilic attack said:
he wasn't aware that what he did was wrong

Even if that's 100% true, it's not an excuse. People should know better.

If I was in her shoes I would cut ties.

GameShrink · Nov 18, 2017

I'd try to understand all sides of the story. I believe that good people can make mistakes, and I would push for reconciliation if it was at all possible.

I think it's important to consider this question very carefully as this trend continues. It's easy to be bullish in condemning the accused until your husband, brother, father, son or close friend are thrust into that role.

hydrophilic attack · Nov 18, 2017

So people have said it would depend on how serious the allegations were. Apparently, in this case, they were serious enough for a police report for rape to have been filed. The police investigation was closed, and this which prompted the women to call him out publicly.

Fulminator · Nov 18, 2017

sabrina said:
Even if that's 100% true, it's not an excuse. People should know better.

If I was in her shoes I would cut ties.

I mean it certainly doesn't excuse the crime, but I think if someone really didn't know, like truly, it's probably better to help then understand than to cut them off

Of course a situation like that is probably rare, where someone is actually completely oblivious

Deleted member 33382 · Nov 18, 2017

I think the only things that would make me flat out abandon a friend without discussion is pedophilia, rape and murder.

$10 Bagel · Nov 18, 2017

I'll believe the accuser, well more I wouldn't take sides until evidence was out. You don't know anyone that well to say "they wouldn't have done this"

Unless you were physically with the person at the time I don't see how you can side with them.

julia crawford · Nov 18, 2017

Bless your sister. It would be hard for me to keep being friends.

TesservcT · Nov 18, 2017

accusations are just accusations. I'd need proof before id abandon my friends.

4859 · Nov 18, 2017

Then I guess we didn't know them that well.

Zero tolerance.

KillLaCam · Nov 19, 2017

Depends on what it is. But I've dropped friends for less so it wouldn't be a big deal to me

Mario's Nipples · Nov 19, 2017

InfiniteDaremo said:
I think the only things that would make me flat out abandon a friend without discussion is pedophilia, rape and murder.

And we're done here. I can forgive my friends for a lot of things - petty theft, assault, etc - but those three are the big no-gos for me. That is, of course, providing there's concrete evidence they're guilty of those crimes.

ourghostsofwar · Nov 19, 2017

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...e-woman-falsely-accused-state-trooper-of-rape
https://patch.com/new-york/threevillage/probation-rejected-false-rape-case-against-li-woman
http://www.shreveporttimes.com/stor...n-accused-making-false-rape-charge/784793001/
http://metro.co.uk/2017/10/20/woman...oldier-of-rape-after-he-rejected-her-7015992/

I think we're going down a dangerous path if we straight up accept accusation as fact. There is power in accusations and this idea that accusers should be believed has truth behind it as well. But for everyone saying they'd have zero tolerance, that means you would have fired or abandoned the soldier in the above false accusation above, the state trooper above, the ex-boyfriend who was out of town, or the football players.

Let the cops prove what they can, and if they can't, that is what it is. But if we're going to have zero tolerance for the accused, that means by the logic below, you would have believed Carolyn Bryant Donham, whose bullshit accusations left an innocent 14-year-old Emmett Till mutilated and dead. The argument that there should be no sympathy or olive branch for the 5% of falsely accused is not just unfair, it's unjust. Most of the people here have been very level-headed. But the two or three preaching zero tolerance, I urge you to reconsider.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/27/us/emmett-till-lynching-carolyn-bryant-donham.html

4859 said:
Then I guess we didn't know them that well.

Zero tolerance.

[REMOVED]

This is what zero tolerance looks like.

Talraen · Nov 19, 2017

Fortunately I've never been in this situation, and I sincerely hope I never have. But I do have a question for those saying that you should completely cut ties with a person in these cases. Is the intent that the perpetrator be completely shunned by society forever because of their crime?

Bakercat · Nov 19, 2017

I'd at least go talk to the person alone and get their answer to a close friend. Depending on how it's given to me and the circumstances surrounding the situation, I would go from there. I couldn't tell you what I would do in a hypothetical situation with an infinite amount of situations, but I can at least say I would question the person in private in each one.

ScatheZombie · Nov 19, 2017

Mostly with apathy. I generally assume everyone is a huge piece of shit about something.

I'm generally confused when people "can't believe" so-and-so grooms teenage boys, or forces themselves on women for promises of fame and fortune, or drugs their dates, or... <insert heinous bullshit here>. I'm not saying I definitely knew all of these different people were doing these exact things but... come on. Your reaction should be "Well, yeah, no shit" in a lot of these cases. The naivety of people astounds me sometimes. Even moreso when it's someone you personally know. Like... I even know my coworkers well enough that I know which ones cheat on their wives, which ones should not be left alone with teenage girls, which ones duck out the back to smoke pot, which ones probably beat their girlfriends, etc.

I have a hard time believing all these people who claim to be 'close friends' with someone and not know they have the capacity to be a horrible person. I know my casual acquaintances better than that.

FeistyBoots · Nov 19, 2017

ScatheZombie said:
Mostly with apathy. I generally assume everyone is a huge piece of shit about something.

I'm generally confused when people "can't believe" so-and-so grooms teenage boys, or forces themselves on women for promises of fame and fortune, or drugs their dates, or... <insert heinous bullshit here>. I'm not saying I definitely knew all of these different people were doing these exact things but... come on. Your reaction should be "Well, yeah, no shit" in a lot of these cases. The naivety of people astounds me sometimes. Even moreso when it's someone you personally know. Like... I even know my coworkers well enough that I know which ones cheat on their wives, which ones should not be left alone with teenage girls, which ones duck out the back to smoke pot, which ones probably beat their girlfriends, etc.

I have a hard time believing all these people who claim to be 'close friends' with someone and not know they have the capacity to be a horrible person. I know my casual acquaintances better than that.

It's really weird that you lump smoking pot in with cheating, beating, and sexual predation.

Red Cadet 015 · Nov 19, 2017

I'm a ride or die type of person. You're not my friend unless you're willing to ride with my through anything and everything short of me violating you in some direct way.

Shit like this is why I only keep a very few close friends around me. If I'm in jail, I expect some coordination to help me meet bail. If I'm in prison, I expect calls. Fuck fake friends.

Red Cadet 015 · Nov 19, 2017

ourghostsofwar said:
This is what zero tolerance looks like.

Well that escalated quickly!

ScatheZombie · Nov 19, 2017

Chmpocalypse said:
It's really weird that you lump smoking pot in with cheating, beating, and sexual predation.

It's not legal here. And it's more than just pot. And really, it's just an example of something people think they're being sneaky about that literally anyone paying any amount of passive attention should be able to pick up on. If someone told me that person got caught dealing meth to kids, my reaction would appropriately be "No shit" given what I already know about them.

FeistyBoots · Nov 19, 2017

ScatheZombie said:
It's not legal here. And it's more than just pot. And really, it's just an example of something people think they're being sneaky about that literally anyone paying any amount of passive attention should be able to pick up on. If someone told me that person got caught dealing meth to kids, my reaction would appropriately be "No shit" given what I already know about them.

You think it would be unsurprising that someone who smokes pot in secret deals meth to kids? What?

Like, I get the point of the first part of your post, but this still seems really accusatory of someone who just uses a harmless drug.

ScatheZombie · Nov 19, 2017

Chmpocalypse said:
You think it would be unsurprising that someone who smokes pot in secret deals meth to kids? What?

Like, I get the point of the first part of your post, but this still seems really accusatory of someone who just uses a harmless drug.

And it's more than just pot.

But thanks for proving my point that people have zero fucking awareness.

It's probably because you smoke pot, lol.

How About No · Nov 19, 2017

If this ever happens in my social circle I pray that I am as strong as all of you to do the right thing

Sobriquet · Nov 19, 2017

I found out a friend was arrested for child porn last year. Everyone I know has completely shut him out of our lives. I have no idea if he still even lives in my city.

4859 · Nov 19, 2017

ourghostsofwar said:
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...e-woman-falsely-accused-state-trooper-of-rape
https://patch.com/new-york/threevillage/probation-rejected-false-rape-case-against-li-woman
http://www.shreveporttimes.com/stor...n-accused-making-false-rape-charge/784793001/
http://metro.co.uk/2017/10/20/woman...oldier-of-rape-after-he-rejected-her-7015992/

I think we're going down a dangerous path if we straight up accept accusation as fact. There is power in accusations and this idea that accusers should be believed has truth behind it as well. But for everyone saying they'd have zero tolerance, that means you would have fired or abandoned the soldier in the above false accusation above, the state trooper above, the ex-boyfriend who was out of town, or the football players.

Let the cops prove what they can, and if they can't, that is what it is. But if we're going to have zero tolerance for the accused, that means by the logic below, you would have believed Carolyn Bryant Donham, whose bullshit accusations left an innocent 14-year-old Emmett Till mutilated and dead. The argument that there should be no sympathy or olive branch for the 5% of falsely accused is insane.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/27/us/emmett-till-lynching-carolyn-bryant-donham.html

This is what zero tolerance looks like.

Oh get wrecked with your both sides garbage No one is taking accusation as fact. We just aren't continuing the national past time of hand waving it away so the boat doesn't rock and make some people feel uncomfortable for a brief moment.

Perhaps if we lived in a world where what you are bringing up is the norm, or perhaps even at least a sizable percentage, as opposed to less than a percent....

Instead of the opposite where then overwhelming vast majority of those stories are true, especially when concerning an individual in a place of power. and even more that go unreported, for fear of public stigma, shame.

During my breif time with eo, I was victim liason for 37 cases. All of which were from a place of power to a suborfinate. 33 were reported in time for the preliminary investigation to bring up strong evidence. 24 of them, despite being told they had a strong case, chose to opt for an off the record solution, where the evidence is recorded but no legal acfion is taken, and no one outside who was involved in the investigation is even made aware. On top of those, a large number went unreported, as in they filed the complaints, then refused to even have an off the record investigation. And apparently, things have doubled since.

You went though history and time to cherry pick your cases.

Heres hundreds all at once within a very small time frame.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ng-itself-in-the-foot/?utm_term=.8293d7c374db

And this is an organization with a stated Zero Tolerance policy.

This is what zero tolerance actually effectively looks like 99.999999% of the time:

No, we don't need to consider your crap. Its already considered because there is always an investigation, unlike in some of the cases you brought up.... And still, its not enough.

This callout culture has empowered victims to finally come out in the ways promises of fair investigations never had. And guess what, we have tons of guilty people being taken down, and no lynchings or mutilated bodies being found around every corner. Just rapists.

Zero tolerance++, since zero tolerance policies clearly aren't enough.

Mahonay · Nov 19, 2017

I found out one of my closest friends in high school was abusing his girlfiend. When she came to me and another friend for support and to confide in us, he got extremely angry. He then sent another friend in the group to confront me aggressively and accuse me of cheating with her, who then sucker punched me in my own home. I immediately told him to get the fuck out.

Both were some of my best friends. Since that happened I broke off my friendship completely with them. They've reached out to me since but I've mostly ignored them. They never apologized.

Deleted member 9486 · Nov 19, 2017

1000 Needles said:
I won't go into details, but I had a friend do something very reprehensible. I struggled for awhile with how to react.

Ultimately, I decided to stand by them because they admitted their guilt, and took responsibility for their actions. And they were repentant. If they weren't any of those things, I'd probably have disassociated.

Pretty much this in cases where they are guilty, though it depends how bad the conduct was. Everyone makes mistakes so things can be forgiven if the person is truly remorseful, but extreme wrongdoings are hard to forgive. So it again depends on what it was. Harrassment is much easier to forgive, while a rape or worse would be probably impossible for me to forgive.

To the bigger point of the OP, if a friend is just accused I'll see what they have to say. If they deny it, then it's just wait and see what comes out and what the evidence is as a friend in that situations deserves the same innocent until proven guilty standard I/we give people in criminal court. If there are multiple, similar allegations then that's more damning and I'd be much more skeptical of a denial.

Obviously these matters can be complicated in a variety of ways. If the victim is a friend as well I'm likely to take their word over the accused's if they are denying it unless there is something very suspicious about the accusation/evidence.

ourghostsofwar · Nov 19, 2017

4859 said:
Oh get wrecked with your both sides garbage No one is taking accusation as fact. We just aren't continuing the national past time of hand waving it away so the boat doesn't rock and make some people feel uncomfortable for a brief moment.

Perhaps if we lived in a world where what you are bringing up is the norm, or perhaps even at least a sizable percentage, as opposed to less than a percent....

Instead of the opposite where then overwhelming vast majority of those stories are true, especially when concerning an individual in a place of power. and even more that go unreported, for fear of public stigma, shame.

During my breif time with eo, I was victim liason for 37 cases. All of which were from a place of power to a suborfinate. 33 were reported in time for the preliminary investigation to bring up strong evidence. 24 of them, despite being told they had a strong case, chose to opt for an off the record solution, where the evidence is recorded but no legal acfion is taken, and no one outside who was involved in the investigation is even made aware. On top of those, a large number went unreported, as in they filed the complaints, then refused to even have an off the record investigation. And apparently, things have doubled since.

You went though history and time to cherry pick your cases.

Heres hundreds all at once within a very small time frame.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ng-itself-in-the-foot/?utm_term=.8293d7c374db

And this is an organization with a stated Zero Tolerance policy.

This is what zero tolerance actually effectively looks like 99.999999% of the time:

No, we don't need to consider your crap. Its already considered because there is always an investigation, unlike in some of the cases you brought up.... And still, its not enough.

This callout culture has empowered victims to finally come out in the ways promises of fair investigations never had. And guess what, we have tons of guilty people being taken down, and no lynchings or mutilated bodies being found around every corner. Just rapists.

Zero tolerance++, since zero tolerance policies clearly aren't enough.

The cases I picked were cases that reported on in the last thirty days. That's not cherry picking. That's just the most recent. The Emmett Till case is just the most notorious and extreme. Here's the case of Wilbert Jones. Imprisoned for 46 years on a false accusation. This is from 3 days ago. Or is 3 days ago cherry picking? Would 2 days be better? Or do the ends justify the means and no amount of time would make a difference for you? And in that case, what would you say to Wilbert Jones?

What you're advocating is no less than the equivalent of this:

It's clear you are impassioned by your need to defend the defenseless and I applaud you for that. It's your personal life to do what you want. I ultimately agree with the majority here though that I would at least have a conversation to get the facts straight before abandoning someone I considered family or a friend. I've personally never seen zero tolerance policies work out well.

Squarehard · Nov 19, 2017

I'm just a bit confused as to where this thread started, and where it's going now with some of these recent responses.

Ryouji Gunblade · Nov 19, 2017

I would likely believe the accuser, if it is relating to behavior I genuinely know something about.

If it's something I've never seen from the person, then I'll be closer to 50-50 on it until more details and reactions happen.

Deleted member 11501 · Nov 19, 2017

I get both sides of the story before making a decision, even if my friend did act in a bad manner I'll still stick by their side to be honest. I'd hate it if my close friends just ditched me if I fucked up.

NameUser · Nov 19, 2017

I'm related to a few criminals and we're still cool. They're mostly drug dealers and petty crooks. Don't think I could stand by anyone who murdered, raped, or beat someone. I'm not a forgive and forget person, I'd disown one of my children if they ever did any of those things in a heartbeat.

One of my second cousins got high on something and beat a random lady to death (someone just walking down the street). He's officially dead to me and is luckily locked up for the rest of his life.

Beardz · Nov 19, 2017

Gennady said:
PS. Jagten("The Hunt" in US) is a good movie!

Awesome movie!

Gone Girl is another one who fits perfectly in today's climate

Cryptosporidium · Nov 19, 2017

I want a career, if youre in any way likely to hurt that I will break things off with you.

If you resort to even raising a hand against me in argument, or if you hurt another friend of mine, youre gone.

That's basically my line.

Callout culture: How would you react if someone close was accused of reprehensible behaviour?

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