Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

Deleted member 7130 · Nov 19, 2017

Luulubuu said:
I can't really tell much about Pyra, I laughed a lot when they showed their boob jiggle in that gif, probably has been linked here many times already, I like some aspects of her and she is growing on me, however I still feel her design just too much in some regards. Problem is that you made a very bad take on my thread. My thread was meant to give some highlight about recent game designs like for example Ana from Overwatch which is an elderly woman in a shooter online.

Which I find just superb.

So you have to understand that when someone links to me that my thread is celebreating tit ninjas when the whole OP was going for a different direction is a bit harsh.

And no, I'm not putting you in ignore! I just wanted to clarify this specific issue, I strongly recommend you to read the OP and some of the suggestions, not only cute as "women being cute" but other designs. My thread is a celebration of non canonical and diverse designs, if people want to transform it into a waifu thread there's little I can do, it was not the intention at all .c

I understood your original post in that thread and I should have distinguished that, certainly. And I apologize for making it look like that was your specific intent to make a thread to celebrate tit ninjas. I came into that thread after there were almost 2 pages and many examples of scantily clad females. I was half expecting someone to post up Quiet at some point. Unfortunately that's just where things seemed to be heading at the time. Since that wasn't your doing though I will edit my post here as I wouldn't want my words to lambast the wrong person/people.

Edit: How the hell am I top of the page again? If only I had this luck in the sale thread...

Twig · Nov 19, 2017

CUD said:
This isn't a discussion that is new to me, it's been going on for a number of years now so I've heard plenty of responses on both sides of the issue. I've read perspectives here that are the same as ones I read years ago, my viewpoint that it's not a big deal isn't going to change.

To reiterate, why I feel it's not a big deal is because I don't see sexualised characters as a bad thing in itself and because I don't see a reasonable and realistic solution to this.

As many people have said, in this thread and elsewhere, directly in response to people like you who argue that it's not a big deal...

It's not "sexualization" alone that is the problem. It's the ratio of sexualized and objectified women to non-sexualized and non-objectified women. It's woefully out of balance.

It's not a difficult concept, and honestly it seems like you're willfully ignoring everyone saying this, which is pretty rude.

MaskedNdi · Nov 19, 2017

Noll said:
A revealing female character can have its place at the right time, but when they forcefully show it to your face with no apparent reasons it really annoys me.

Same here. Sometimes, the inappropriate of an outfit for a character/situation bothers me more than the outfit itself.

At the start of Parasite Eve, the main character, Aya, is wearing a slinky black dress. Her outfit is situationally appropriate; she's on a date at the opera.

Later on, when she returns to her job as a police detective, she changes into more practical attire:

The outfit change is such a small thing, but details like that are a huge for me. There are so many games out there that let fanservice get in the way of storytelling.

I know that many of the games that people criticize are fantasy stories, but even a fantasy world should have rules and logic behind it.

Deleted member 1273 · Nov 19, 2017

Televator said:
I understood you original post in the thread and I should have distinguished that, certainly. And I apologize for making it look like that was your specific intent to make a thread to celebrate tit ninjas. I came into that thread after there were almost 2 pages and many examples of scantily clad females. I was half expecting someone to post up Quiet at some point. Unfortunately that's just where things seemed to be heading at the time. Since that wasn't your doing though I will edit my post here as I wouldn't want my words to lambast the wrong person/people.

I strongly appreciate this kind words, however I think both my tone in the OP (should have been more straight foward to the diversity and variety point with less fangirl tone) and in here directly to you, I apologise and I look foward to discuss this very same topic with you in the future.

It's sad but the other day I came across with a very weird thing, I made a thread about how cool would be to have a cute focused souls game, we remove the dark fantasy and some gritty elements and we make it cute, I wanted people to go wild into how it would work, however, it derailed into some kind of "moe" thread, in the moment of me writing the post (which I regret using an image I thought it was "cute" but some people saw it as sexy, shrug) I didn't made the connection "cute=moe=girls" and it really took me for surprise.

I believe we are changing for the better, we have more representation and more diversity however we are still missing more women being vocal and head designers or directiors, imho, I will try to catch on the whole thread (or at least the last pages) during my break, again Televator thanks for your post

weemadarthur · Nov 19, 2017

CUD said:
This isn't a discussion that is new to me, it's been going on for a number of years now so I've heard plenty of responses on both sides of the issue. I've read perspectives here that are the same as ones I read years ago, my viewpoint that it's not a big deal isn't going to change.

To reiterate, why I feel it's not a big deal is because I don't see sexualised characters as a bad thing in itself and because I don't see a reasonable and realistic solution to this.

Fair enough; if you are familiar with the long discussion of points on the topic, they really have not changed much in 30 years. So that should give you plenty of familiarity with the topic.

So then, what do you want the women who are sharing their experiences here in this thread, to take away from your posts? About you as a fellow gamer, about the industry, and about the overarching topic of sexualization in media of all kinds?

HypedBeast · Nov 19, 2017

Weltall Zero said:
Your post

Ok, I see where you are coming from and you make a good, sound argument.

I guess I just like to refrain from labels because people often tend to assume your worldview just from your label alone (for example political labels like Liberal or Conservative).

HypedBeast · Nov 19, 2017

MaskedNdi said:
Same here. Sometimes, the inappropriate of an outfit for a character/situation bothers me more than the outfit itself.

At the start of Parasite Eve, the main character, Aya, is wearing a slinky black dress. Her outfit is situationally appropriate; she's on a date at the opera.

Later on, when she returns to her job as a police detective, she changes into more practical attire:

The outfit change is such a small thing, but details like that are a huge for me. There are so many games out there that let fanservice get in the way of storytelling.

I know that many of the games that people criticize are fantasy stories, but even a fantasy world should have rules and logic behind it.

That's a good example, However a lot of the games people were criticizing in the thread were fighting games, which often have costumes that are not exactly situationally appropriate or practical, but serve we'll to look cool and highlight their personality

Deleted member 7130 · Nov 19, 2017

Luulubuu said:
I strongly appreciate this kind words, however I think both my tone in the OP (should have been more straight foward to the diversity and variety point with less fangirl tone) and in here directly to you, I apologise and I look foward to discuss this very same topic with you in the future.

It's sad but the other day I came across with a very weird thing, I made a thread about how cool would be to have a cute focused souls game, we remove the dark fantasy and some gritty elements and we make it cute, I wanted people to go wild into how it would work, however, it derailed into some kind of "moe" thread, in the moment of me writing the post (which I regret using an image I thought it was "cute" but some people saw it as sexy, shrug) I didn't made the connection "cute=moe=girls" and it really took me for surprise.

I believe we are changing for the better, we have more representation and more diversity however we are still missing more women being vocal and head designers or directiors, imho, I will try to catch on the whole thread (or at least the last pages) during my break, again Televator thanks for your post

No, thank you Luulu for having some patience with me. Glad we could hash it out and come to an understanding. Unfortunately, with respect to the cute souls thread, cute can be easily take to mean moe in the context of any game conversation. Even in an ironic cynical sense. Sucks that your idea got derailed like that. Speaking of derailing... I think I'll cut this convesation off here.

CUD · Nov 20, 2017

weemadarthur said:
Fair enough; if you are familiar with the long discussion of points on the topic, they really have not changed much in 30 years. So that should give you plenty of familiarity with the topic.

So then, what do you want the women who are sharing their experiences here in this thread, to take away from your posts? About you as a fellow gamer, about the industry, and about the overarching topic of sexualization in media of all kinds?

You know what, that's a very good question. It is hard to understand the perspective of those who do view sexualised characters as a big issue so it's certainly difficult to discuss when so many different views on the topic are thrown in.

Obviously I can't just tell people to stop caring about this. What I would like to see though is some more discussion on potential solutions instead of the usual criticisms. I don't think there's enough discussion about the cultural differences of game developers and the other factors that impact these character and game designs.

Do they make these design choices because they don't respect women? I don't believe that to be the case. It seems more due to market demand. If these games sell then it's because enough gamers also want these things. Liking sexy character designs isn't just for males, plenty of female cosplayers dress up as sexy characters by choice.

We can look at the music industry too and see popular female musicians wearing revealing clothing and yet they often still have largely female audiences... Actually, I was going to say that sex sells which would surely contribute to some of their sales but that doesn't really explain the largely female audiences. Well maybe that extends to society itself, it's not uncommon for women to present themselves in a sexy way. Perhaps that's too anecdotal, but it is the impression I have gotten anyway.

I'm on mobile so I don't want to Ake this much longer than it already is. My point is that there's a lot more factors that impact this that I don't see discussed when these topics come up.

DragonKeeper · Nov 20, 2017

There's another side to sexulization that negatively impacts my enjoyment of games that is itself gender neutral. It is something that can affect male and female characters, but due to the ubiquity of fetishized clothing on women, it happens to them the most. I call it "clownsuiting".

Everything that goes into making a game or a movie serves the atmosphere, the mood, the tone of the work. The color palette works with the music and sound design and writing and camera work to complete a whole. Anything out of sinc can destroy the tone or ruin the audience's immersion. You don't play Yakkity Sax during scenes from Saving Private Ryan, you don't play a funeral march during a fairy tale romance. And yet, this is done with costuming all the time. A character wearing dumb looking gear can wreck the mood of a scene and be so distracting it pulls the player right out of whatever the designer wanted to draw them into.

Clownsuiting a character also makes them harder to take seriously. All that work you put into crafting the personality of a character and their backstory? If you want me to take that character seriously, don't put them in a bikini if they're not on the beach. Sexualized character designs are a form of clownsuiting. If your game takes place in a circus, fill it with as many clowns as you like, otherwise, leave Bozo at home.

a harmless rabbit · Nov 20, 2017

CUD said:
You know what, that's a very good question. It is hard to understand the perspective of those who do view sexualised characters as a big issue so it's certainly difficult to discuss when so many different views on the topic are thrown in.

Obviously I can't just tell people to stop caring about this. What I would like to see though is some more discussion on potential solutions instead of the usual criticisms. I don't think there's enough discussion about the cultural differences of game developers and the other factors that impact these character and game designs.

Do they make these design choices because they don't respect women? I don't believe that to be the case. It seems more due to market demand. If these games sell then it's because enough gamers also want these things. Liking sexy character designs isn't just for males, plenty of female cosplayers dress up as sexy characters by choice.

We can look at the music industry too and see popular female musicians wearing revealing clothing and yet they often still have largely female audiences... Actually, I was going to say that sex sells which would surely contribute to some of their sales but that doesn't really explain the largely female audiences. Well maybe that extends to society itself, it's not uncommon for women to present themselves in a sexy way. Perhaps that's too anecdotal, but it is the impression I have gotten anyway.

I'm on mobile so I don't want to Ake this much longer than it already is. My point is that there's a lot more factors that impact this that I don't see discussed when these topics come up.

I'm late for bed here but I wanted to note that you've stumbled upon the crux of the issue here. The sexualized female form is an extremely marketable thing to both genders because it's been commoditized and sold to us repeatedly throughout the history of modern society. That's literally the core at the center of concerns about objectification, and why discussions in this vein always call for people to be introspective and think about WHY they have the opinions that they do. That's also why discussion about solutions is often nebulous, because the foundation of this issue is also literally a core foundational element of the modern capitalist society that we who grew up in the part of the world that tends to indulge in video games enough to be part of an enthusiast forum were mostly raised in.

This isn't just a problem about representation in video games, we're literally discussing a symptom of a less than perfect facet of modern society itself.

sabrina · Nov 20, 2017

CUD said:
Do they make these design choices because they don't respect women? I don't believe that to be the case. It seems more due to market demand. If these games sell then it's because enough gamers also want these things. Liking sexy character designs isn't just for males, plenty of female cosplayers dress up as sexy characters by choice.

That's so not fair. It's not like equal amounts of games with sexualized men and sexualized women are made in every genre. It's not like there's an equal to Kojima who is making the equivalent of Metal Gear Solid without Quiet in it. If everything started out on an even, unilateral playing field then you would have a point, but it's just not the case. The market can only demand something if the goods have been made available for sale, and nobody yet is selling MGS5 without Quiet.

You're trying to say two things that are completely in contradiction to each other. You're trying to say that men are more interested (market demand) in games because the games feature exploitative female designs, and that women's interest in a game doesn't change when the game features exploitation. That's completely reductive of women's agency and it's dishonest to argue.

xlestattx · Nov 20, 2017

weemadarthur said:
Bring receipts showing that straight women find the "video game idealized" male form attractive. I will accept receipts from gay/bi/pan men too.

Don't give me this "show me the receipts" bs. I was trying to have a discussion in good faith, and stated my personal opinion and viewpoint. I had a good back and forth with a couple of posters here, learning more about their viewpoint in the process.

Bullshit responses like "show me the receipts" just shut down discussion and make folks that dont share YOUR viewpoint and opinion have zero interest in discussing anything with you in good faith.

LinLeigh et al - Thank you for your productive responses and willingness to actually discuss this with me. (Not you Jiro, saw that ban coming right away.)

Deleted member 20603 · Nov 20, 2017

I'm male, haven't gamed recently, and late to this topic, so I don't have much to add other than my opinion. In a game where you can choose your gender like Skyrim, it annoys me when the armors for females aren't nearly as protective as the male version. If you are female and equip the ancient nord armor, the chestplate completely disappears. Most of the other armors change shape upon picking them up, sprouting boob plates, or in the case of the vampire armor, adjusting to provide a boob window. I know there are mods out there that fix it, but I wish they'd have at least given you the choice to wear regular armor in the first place.

I want to create characters of both genders in games like this, but it's hard to when females don't get the equivalent armor or even customization options to look strong, like using warrior animations or getting the same size body as males. It seems by default less muscles, less armor, and dainty animations that look weird in said armor. I wish it wasn't designed like that.

I hope not to offend anyone, that's just my opinion.

petran79 · Nov 20, 2017

Master Alucard said:
well at least morrigan is the one that make most sense

The funny thing is that they even exploited her only pose where she wasnt sexualised too much

HammerFace · Nov 20, 2017

Did this thread get locked for a bit? I swear I checked it and it said I wasn't allowed to post in it

Nav · Nov 20, 2017

HammerFace said:
Did this thread get locked for a bit? I swear I checked it and it said I wasn't allowed to post in it

Yes it did, I think it was an accident since we were told to move discussion to a Valkyria Chronicles 4 thread.

Garf02 · Nov 20, 2017

weemadarthur said:
Any woman on this forum has proved, by having an account here, that she cares about video games enough to follow industry-offshoot news.
100% of the women who have posted in this topic find excess sexualization to be a problem [trolls excluded of course, and also it should be noted that some of the women still want sexualization in an appropriate place].
Therefore, women enthusiasts are overwhelmingly in support of the video game industry focusing sexualization in dedicated spots, while reducing it in 'inappropriate' spots, as defined by arguments previously listed.

Do you really think that this sample cannot be extrapolated to apply to a larger demographic? Statistical data always uses samples to represent larger groups.

Data Sample is too low, by any means the ones of us that are dedicated enough to get/ use a personal email address to set up into a video games forum are a niche among a niche. im not dismissing anyone opinion on the matter HERE, but not sure how much it could reflect to the industry overall user base.

weemadarthur said:
Are you being paid to defend "the industry"? Not that it matters, I'm merely trying to understand your motivation to protect it from criticism, which most prople consider a method of collecting data for making improvements

oh, im sorry, I didnt know that pointing out (even if redundant) that efforts are being made means deflect any criticism

Playsage · Nov 20, 2017

petran79 said:
The funny thing is that they even exploited her only pose where she wasnt sexualised too much

Iirc she does have this outfit in the OVAs and I assumed that was the reference

Redcrayon · Nov 20, 2017

D.A. said:
I understand people with certain sensibilities might be made uncomfortable by attractive individuals who're fit and beautiful portrayed in a sexualized manner.

The 'prude' argument is a straw man. Most of the people arguing against the sexualised costumes here are doing so because it's often out of context, the costumes lack variety and it's ridiculously out of balance- it's seen as the norm for female characters to be in skimpy outfits, which then has further implications for views of what's normal/expected behaviour for women amongst men and boys, women and girls. There are wider issues at stake than arguments of individual taste. I have no issue with sexualised characters, sexy female characters as part of a wider variety would be cool. I have an issue when female characters are sexualised and ogled by the camera a disproportionally huge amount of time as it then suggests it's normal for women to just be sex objects rather than rounded human characters in a well-drawn, varied cast. Furthermore, I couldn't care less about sexualised depiction in adult games where the whole point is to sexy. But when it's mainstream it is an issue.

We need to look at it in context. Any individual portrayal might not be an issue- of course characters can have valid reasons to be running around in their underwear or using sex appeal for x, y or z. However, if that's then an industry norm, it shifts the cultural viewpoint sideways, to the point where a female character in a normal outfit is seen as 'prudish', and a character in combat lingerie is seen as 'normal'. That's not a good thing for the industry or the viewpoint of its young male and female players, even if an adult that loves seeing sexy women not wearing very much might be cheering it on.

But there are those who're just as uncomfortable with the nonsexualised and more prudish portrayals.

Are you really arguing than depicting women in normal clothing for the settling much of the time, just like men, would cause as much harm to the mindset of those who like sexy outfits as the current status quo does for young women seeing female characters often treated like pieces of meat in comparison to the men?

This is is no way a fair comparison, the 'discomfort' of finding some female characters to be wearing more than someone might like is not in any way comparable with the wider effects of having female characters largely having sex appeal as their primary reason for existing.

Weltall Zero · Nov 20, 2017

HypedBeast said:
Ok, I see where you are coming from and you make a good, sound argument.

Thanks! That's not something you read every day in a politically charged thread! :)

HypedBeast said:
I guess I just like to refrain from labels because people often tend to assume your worldview just from your label alone (for example political labels like Liberal or Conservative).

Labels are a tool. Like any tool, they can be used or misused. The point is that saying "I am not [label]" is as much of a statement as "I am [label]". I would have never brought the point out of the blue, but when someone categorically says "I am not [label]" multiple times, while displaying a textbook [label] ideology, there is clearly some dissonance going on.

Again, this is particularly true in the case of feminism, in part because the Overton window has slid a lot in the past century and what was radical then is the norm now, but especially because the term has been subjected to a smear campaign by its opponents, trying to make it seem like something far more extreme than it really is, with the sole purpose of driving people away from it (because words have power over thought) and dividing us. By letting that stand, by actively disidentifying as a "feminist", one plays straight into their hands.

Persephone · Nov 20, 2017

I'm astounded that this thread is still going, 34 pages later. I mean, pretty disappointed at some of the garbage too, but yeah. I guess it's good there's so much discussion around this topic...?

Redcrayon · Nov 20, 2017

Persephone said:
I'm astounded that this thread is still going, 34 pages later. I mean, pretty disappointed at some of the garbage too, but yeah. I guess it's good there's so much discussion around this topic...?

I think any thread like this becomes a bit of a 'current OT for any of a dozen related topics, any of which could have their own thread', which is why they go all over the place despite the relatively specific thread title!

There's been a lot of useful stuff in here though, thanks for making it.

Weltall Zero · Nov 20, 2017

Garf02 said:
Its not a narrative,nor im just pulling numbers out of my ass or anything, take for Example Nintendo. the one called usually the family friend console

It's interesting that you used the only ever source that has caused widespread skepticism because it doesn't match any of the previous data collected and shared by any study. Every single other one has shown a nearly even match, if not higher ownership by women.

Case in point:
http://www.pewinternet.org/2015/10/29/the-demographics-of-device-ownership/
Scroll down and you'll see game console ownership by gender: 37% of men, 42% of women.

Here's another chart, this time from the Entertainment Software Association of Canada (the vertical axis is percentage of women gamers vs men):

Just google a bit and you'll see nearly every single study into the matter reveals both genders to be extremely matched even for consoles. If you expand that to cover any kind of gaming device, you will find that almost unanimously women actually game more.

What is very interesting is that the perception of most gamers being men is extremely widespread, even among women:
http://www.pewinternet.org/2015/12/15/public-debates-about-gaming-and-gamers/

In any case, even in an hypothetical world where women did indeed ignore games, that would be the definition of a chicken/egg situation. Do not ask if games display women as sex objects because they are fewer gamer women, ask if there are fewer gamer women because games display women as sex objects. Wikipedia even has an article on that!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games#Gender_disparity

Critics attribute the seeming lack of female interest in video games to the negative portrayal of women in video games and to misogynistic attitudes common among professional and hardcore gamers.[125]

[Inserting text here to break up the above and lower quote :D]

Persephone said:
I'm astounded that this thread is still going, 34 pages later. I mean, pretty disappointed at some of the garbage too, but yeah. I guess it's good there's so much discussion around this topic...?

I admit I'm pleasantly surprised as well, even with the high noise-to-signal ratio. These kinds of threads tend to sadly go out with a whimper for whatever reason, even back on GAF, so seeing this one alive and well for so long is encouraging!

Dmax3901 · Nov 20, 2017

Persephone said:
I'm astounded that this thread is still going, 34 pages later. I mean, pretty disappointed at some of the garbage too, but yeah. I guess it's good there's so much discussion around this topic...?

There has been some true garbage but I've also seen some encouraging honesty from people who are willing to learn/understand themselves and their perspectives better. As well as disagreements coming to amicable ends.

Deleted member 2834 · Nov 20, 2017

Just wanted to tell the participants in this thread that I as a male member of this community learned a whole lot about sexualized character designs in video games thanks to this thread. So in case you are frustrating by trolls reappearing with the same talking points every other page, keep in mind that surely many of us are lurking and learning. Era seems one of the very few places this topic can be discussed in in a comparatively civil manner.

StallionDan · Nov 20, 2017

incognito said:
I'm male, haven't gamed recently, and late to this topic, so I don't have much to add other than my opinion. In a game where you can choose your gender like Skyrim, it annoys me when the armors for females aren't nearly as protective as the male version. If you are female and equip the ancient nord armor, the chestplate completely disappears. Most of the other armors change shape upon picking them up, sprouting boob plates, or in the case of the vampire armor, adjusting to provide a boob window. I know there are mods out there that fix it, but I wish they'd have at least given you the choice to wear regular armor in the first place.

I see these type complaints a lot, the general argument boiling down to the female armours not being realistic and offering less protection.

I was playing a game the other day, an enemy shot a .50 Cal bullet into my male character face, it crippled my head but the only negative effects were my aim got a little worse, I kill him then get attacked by a mutant bear, so I pull out my laser gun and disintegrate it into ashes. I then loot the pile of ashes and find a meat drumstick, somehow during disintegration this part of the mutant bear must have carved itself, I eat it raw (never get ill) and my crippled head is fine with no signs of damage, the helmet armour I was wearing which also covered my face received no damage at any point.

Please tell me more how a videogame armour offered less protection or isn't realistic because boob chest plates deflect impacts inwards and not outwards.

Realism will never be a good argument for anything in videogames imo.

rras1994 · Nov 20, 2017

StallionDan said:
I see these type complaints a lot, the general argument boiling down to the female armours not being realistic and offering less protection.

I was playing a game the other day, an enemy shot a .50 Cal bullet into my male character face, it crippled my head but the only negative effects were my aim got a little worse, I kill him then get attacked by a mutant bear, so I pull out my laser gun and disintegrate it into ashes. I then loot the pile of ashes and find a meat drumstick, somehow during disintegration this part of the mutant bear must have carved itself, I eat it raw (never get ill) and my crippled head is fine with no signs of damage, the helmet armour I was wearing which also covered my face received no damage at any point.

Please tell me more how a videogame armour offered less protection or isn't realistic because boob chest plates deflect impacts inwards and not outwards.

Realism will never be a good argument for anything in videogames imo.

A game has to abide by the rules of it's own world, otherwise it takes you out of the game and can be very jarring. Can you not understand that if the male characters in a game are all wearing full protective armour that covers everything, and the of female characters are wearing things that have boob windows or a lot of barred skin, it can be very jarring and obvious? That it's a pain in the ass when the majority of the clothing available is revealing and there are little options if you want to play a female character? It's not about realism, it's the fact that the female characters are treated very differently from the male characters, for no reason other then "it looks sexy"

a harmless rabbit · Nov 20, 2017

StallionDan said:
I see these type complaints a lot, the general argument boiling down to the female armours not being realistic and offering less protection.

I was playing a game the other day, an enemy shot a .50 Cal bullet into my male character face, it crippled my head but the only negative effects were my aim got a little worse, I kill him then get attacked by a mutant bear, so I pull out my laser gun and disintegrate it into ashes. I then loot the pile of ashes and find a meat drumstick, somehow during disintegration this part of the mutant bear must have carved itself, I eat it raw (never get ill) and my crippled head is fine with no signs of damage, the helmet armour I was wearing which also covered my face received no damage at any point.

Please tell me more how a videogame armour offered less protection or isn't realistic because boob chest plates deflect impacts inwards and not outwards.

Realism will never be a good argument for anything in videogames imo.

While you're right that real world logic certainly can't be applied to all elements of a medium of fiction built around rules that make it fun to play over that logic, I don't think that's the core of the criticism in this context. It's not a complaint that the armor for female characters is unrealistic, it's a complaint that the female armor is unrealistic and the male armor is comparatively realistic. These are extremely, extremely different complaints, despite containing a lot of the same words.

For an example of what it might look like if one were to take what female armor usually looks like and apply it more uniformly to men, take the (Arguably NSFW but in a T rated MMORPG)Coliseum Galerusfrom Final Fantasy XIV. You can see an image gallery at the bottom of the page.

It's worth noting that FFXIV fansites and forums are notorious for their occasional posts by men shocked about the notorious subligars (one of which being the bottom half of that armor set) that they wind up finding themselves wearing during the leveling process. They leave very little to the imagination, and I'd like to think that it's a good learning experience with regard to the discomfort that many women feel just trying to play a damn video game and find a pair of pants that's actually a pair of pants. Also a lot of gay male and female friends enjoy running around with their male characters wearing them, which is rad because that's not something they get often.

klauskpm · Nov 20, 2017

StallionDan said:
I see these type complaints a lot, the general argument boiling down to the female armours not being realistic and offering less protection.

I was playing a game the other day, an enemy shot a .50 Cal bullet into my male character face, it crippled my head but the only negative effects were my aim got a little worse, I kill him then get attacked by a mutant bear, so I pull out my laser gun and disintegrate it into ashes. I then loot the pile of ashes and find a meat drumstick, somehow during disintegration this part of the mutant bear must have carved itself, I eat it raw (never get ill) and my crippled head is fine with no signs of damage, the helmet armour I was wearing which also covered my face received no damage at any point.

Please tell me more how a videogame armour offered less protection or isn't realistic because boob chest plates deflect impacts inwards and not outwards.

Realism will never be a good argument for anything in videogames imo.

So your argument for not going equally for both is because games are not realistic? I mean, they've done the male armour to protect you fully, but not the female. How about following your own patterns and not objectify a specific gender?

Why the male armour needs to be realistic (more to "epic" than realistic) and the female needs to look a swiss cheese to show skin?

Changing the target of the subject is never a good argument imo.

Remember · Nov 20, 2017

I usually put it to the point in that the core problem is that there's still too much of it and it's still done in the wrong way, this doesn't mean the idea of anything sexual at all has to go. There just needs to be a healthy balance. There's two ways I use a comparison it to friends of mine and others who don't quite understand the issue.

1) If you're a fan of hip hop and rap, there are a lot of microwave era mumble/hook rappers out there who constantly pop up and get the spotlight over your favorite artist(s) who actually use rhymes and try to tell a story. You and others are trying to rally against this but the larger groups you are fighting against don't care and they see a quick buck, streams, marketing, and record sales. There are still rappers out there who are trying to keep lyrics alive and you should continue to support them as much as possible. Point them out to people who might not be aware but could be interested. This will eventually create a healthy balance so that you aren't overwhelmed with just mumble/hook rap everywhere.

2) If you're a fan of anime, specifically ones like Cowboy Bebop, Gundam, Akira, etc, you probably have noticed that there are a ton of moe' / sexualized / sexual relationship anime out there. They are not only are outnumbering the anime you like, but you feel they are also giving anime a bad look to the public eye. The same thing applies in a different way. You have to keep supporting those who are making the type of anime you enjoy(with more than just streaming numbers), point them out to people who might not be aware but could be interested and do your part in spreading support. Hopefully a healthy balance will eventually occur.

The trap that a lot of people tend to fall into(and this counts with this topic/forum as well) is that people point out the industries' negatives more than their positives. While it can help sometimes, it can also set you up to look like you are complaining too much when you're actually just trying to help improve things and thus you are ignored, criticized or worse and the point shifts from what it was originally intended to be.

Scrooge McDuck · Nov 20, 2017

StallionDan said:
I see these type complaints a lot, the general argument boiling down to the female armours not being realistic and offering less protection.

I was playing a game the other day, an enemy shot a .50 Cal bullet into my male character face, it crippled my head but the only negative effects were my aim got a little worse, I kill him then get attacked by a mutant bear, so I pull out my laser gun and disintegrate it into ashes. I then loot the pile of ashes and find a meat drumstick, somehow during disintegration this part of the mutant bear must have carved itself, I eat it raw (never get ill) and my crippled head is fine with no signs of damage, the helmet armour I was wearing which also covered my face received no damage at any point.

Please tell me more how a videogame armour offered less protection or isn't realistic because boob chest plates deflect impacts inwards and not outwards.

Realism will never be a good argument for anything in videogames imo.

Okay, so we are talking about games where the exact same set of armor somehow looks different when worn by men or women, right? We've established that this game is fantasy. We've established that it's not a realistic game. So the designer could make the armor look like anything on both gender, right?

Why, then, do they look different? What reason is there, then, to have the armor appears stupider, suddenly missing pieces or articles of clothing when worn by women? It's not like the designer has no choice on the matter: they're definitely not adhering to any sort realism or historical fact or whatever. We've established that the game doesn't even have that excuse. It's as if the designer chose to treat the characters differently simply depending on their sexes.

Don't you think that perhaps that's the core of the criticism whenever "realism" is brought up?

Ferrs · Nov 20, 2017

Imp the Dimp said:
Just wa nted to tell the participants in this thread that I as a male member of this community learned a whole lot about sexualized character designs in video games thanks to this thread. So in case you are frustrating by trolls reappearing with the same talking points every other page, keep in mind that surely many of us are lurking and learning. Era seems one of the very few places this topic can be discussed in in a comparatively civil manner.

That's why , compared to what some people say, these threads, and talking about it, is always useful in one way or another!

a harmless rabbit said:
It's worth noting that FFXIV fansites and forums are notorious for their occasional posts by men shocked about the notorious subligars (one of which being the bottom half of that armor set) that they wind up finding themselves wearing during the leveling process. They leave very little to the imagination, and I'd like to think that it's a good learning experience with regard to the discomfort that many women feel just trying to play a damn video game and find a pair of pants that's actually a pair of pants. Also a lot of gay male and female friends enjoy running around with their male characters wearing them, which is rad because that's not something they get often.

These XIV kiddos.... Subligars predated back from XI and there everyone wore them with pride and honor! lol

StoveOven · Nov 20, 2017

Remember said:
The trap that a lot of people tend to fall into(and this counts with this topic/forum as well) is that people point out the industries' negatives more than their positives. While it can help sometimes, it can also set you up to look like you are complaining too much when you're actually just trying to help improve things and thus you are ignored, criticized or worse and the point shifts from what it was originally intended to be.

While you basically say this in your post, I just want to emphasize that there is definitely room to both criticize things when they are bad and celebrate them when they are good (and have a nuanced discussion about them when things are more murky). I don't inherently disagree with anything in your post, but the "focus on the positives" argument is oftentimes used as a way to completely shut down any form of dissent. I would say that this forum does a pretty good job of praising games with positive representation, it's just that threads that are critical of games are obviously going to get a lot more pushback.

a harmless rabbit · Nov 20, 2017

Ferrs said:
That's why , compared to what some people say, these threads, and talking about it, is always useful in one way or another!
These XIV kiddos.... Subligars predated back from XI and there everyone wore them with pride and honor! lol

Oh, believe you me, I did my time in the crab mines. XIV's just a more topical discussion these days. Also more polygons.

petran79 · Nov 20, 2017

Redcrayon said:
This is is no way a fair comparison, the 'discomfort' of finding some female characters to be wearing more than someone might like is not in any way comparable with the wider effects of having female characters largely having sex appeal as their primary reason for existing.

Unless it is a maid or gothic lolita costume

GMEGBLN · Nov 20, 2017

DragonKeeper said:
Clownsuiting a character also makes them harder to take seriously. All that work you put into crafting the personality of a character and their backstory? If you want me to take that character seriously, don't put them in a bikini if they're not on the beach. Sexualized character designs are a form of clownsuiting. If your game takes place in a circus, fill it with as many clowns as you like, otherwise, leave Bozo at home.

Thank you, this is exactly where I fall on this topic. It's hard to take a character/moment seriously when a design sticks out like a sore thumb in the rest of the cast. I'm completely OK with sexualization in games when it fits either in the narrative, or the universe these characters inhabit (characters like Bayonetta, or anything by artist Frank Frazetta) but having characters dressed up like that, with those proportions, in a story and universe that plays itself completely straight makes me roll my eyes hard.

It's doubly disappointing to me because I had thought a Nintendo-published RPG would be above anime bait like that, but Fire Emblem seems to also be going in that direction. I'm buying Chronicles 2 DESPITE this, but I'd like to buy a J-RPG that doesn't make me embarrassed to play it in front of mixed company. Games like OneeChanbara or DOA: Volleyball do not bother me because they are unashamed in their content and are clearly not for me, but it sucks when I have to accept these elements to play a game in an genre that I enjoy that adds nothing to the story, characters, or setting.

Xaszatm · Nov 20, 2017

Ferrs said:
That's why , compared to what some people say, these threads, and talking about it, is always useful in one way or another!

These XIV kiddos.... Subligars predated back from XI and there everyone wore them with pride and honor! lol

*high five* FFXI FOREVER! (Though FFXIV is awesome as well)

Yeah, it is amusing to watch the same "bikini armor is fine in a video game" suddenly whip around and start complaining when they are the ones being objectified. See also FF Mobius.

Dary · Nov 20, 2017

StallionDan said:
I see these type complaints a lot, the general argument boiling down to the female armours not being realistic and offering less protection.

I was playing a game the other day, an enemy shot a .50 Cal bullet into my male character face, it crippled my head but the only negative effects were my aim got a little worse, I kill him then get attacked by a mutant bear, so I pull out my laser gun and disintegrate it into ashes. I then loot the pile of ashes and find a meat drumstick, somehow during disintegration this part of the mutant bear must have carved itself, I eat it raw (never get ill) and my crippled head is fine with no signs of damage, the helmet armour I was wearing which also covered my face received no damage at any point.

Please tell me more how a videogame armour offered less protection or isn't realistic because boob chest plates deflect impacts inwards and not outwards.

Realism will never be a good argument for anything in videogames imo.

If games shouldn't worry about "realism" because they let you survive a bullet to the face, why do they even bother with armour in the first place? Why doesn't Doomguy just swagger his way around Mars in a mankini? I mean, it's fantasy, right? It doesn't have to make sense!!

Morrigan · Nov 20, 2017

DragonKeeper said:
There's another side to sexulization that negatively impacts my enjoyment of games that is itself gender neutral. It is something that can affect male and female characters, but due to the ubiquity of fetishized clothing on women, it happens to them the most. I call it "clownsuiting".

Everything that goes into making a game or a movie serves the atmosphere, the mood, the tone of the work. The color palette works with the music and sound design and writing and camera work to complete a whole. Anything out of sinc can destroy the tone or ruin the audience's immersion. You don't play Yakkity Sax during scenes from Saving Private Ryan, you don't play a funeral march during a fairy tale romance. And yet, this is done with costuming all the time. A character wearing dumb looking gear can wreck the mood of a scene and be so distracting it pulls the player right out of whatever the designer wanted to draw them into.

Clownsuiting a character also makes them harder to take seriously. All that work you put into crafting the personality of a character and their backstory? If you want me to take that character seriously, don't put them in a bikini if they're not on the beach. Sexualized character designs are a form of clownsuiting. If your game takes place in a circus, fill it with as many clowns as you like, otherwise, leave Bozo at home.

Couldn't agree more. And that's also why I'm opposed to so-called "equal fanservice" by sexualizing men. Having Nathan Drake run around shirtless and in tight shorts the whole game wouldn't be "service to fans", it'd just be really stupid.

StallionDan said:
I see these type complaints a lot, the general argument boiling down to the female armours not being realistic and offering less protection.

I was playing a game the other day, an enemy shot a .50 Cal bullet into my male character face, it crippled my head but the only negative effects were my aim got a little worse, I kill him then get attacked by a mutant bear, so I pull out my laser gun and disintegrate it into ashes. I then loot the pile of ashes and find a meat drumstick, somehow during disintegration this part of the mutant bear must have carved itself, I eat it raw (never get ill) and my crippled head is fine with no signs of damage, the helmet armour I was wearing which also covered my face received no damage at any point.

Please tell me more how a videogame armour offered less protection or isn't realistic because boob chest plates deflect impacts inwards and not outwards.

Realism will never be a good argument for anything in videogames imo.

See the post quoted above. Also, there's a difference between realism and believability. They are similar in concepts, but different in execution.

Video games will always have "silly" video-game-logic elements, like HP bars, etc. That doesn't mean "anything goes". A lot of fans enjoy games for their story, characterization, and/or world-building. People appreciate attention to detail. How the polygons of a potted plant in an NPC's house in an open-world AAA game is rendered with such fidelity. All this stuff to create rich and immersive worlds.

Even silly video game logic follows its own internal logic. A rusty broken knife doesn't hit as hard as the Steel Dagger +1, which again doesn't hit as hard as the Sacrificial Dagger of Kar'ta'kyul (yes, I just made that up, but you know where I'm going here). Is that because of "realism"? No. It's because despite the fantastical setting, a world follows its own internal rules and worked to be more believable while offering a sense of progression for the player.

Edit: welp, Dary said it much better than I could xD

petran79 said:
Unless it is a maid or gothic lolita costume

Nah.

StallionDan · Nov 20, 2017

rras1994 said:
A game has to abide by the rules of it's own world, otherwise it takes you out of the game and can be very jarring. Can you not understand that if the male characters in a game are all wearing full protective armour that covers everything, and the of female characters are wearing things that have boob windows or a lot of barred skin, it can be very jarring and obvious?

Male armours very often have stupid logic to them too when comparing to the real world, but as you put it "A game has to abide by the rules of it's own world", so why don't you let it use its own rules and stop comparing to our world.

Here are some examples from Dragon's Dogma. The Silver Chestplate

Male

Female

"Well the male version clearly offers more protection" you say. By the real world rules sure, but in the rules of the world of Dragon's Dogma they offer the same defense, in fact this defense despite being visibly on the chest only will protect you when hit with a arrow to the face.

It's a videogame without real world rules, don't ignore those rules, replace with real world ones then complain they are not realistic.

a harmless rabbit said:
While you're right that real world logic certainly can't be applied to all elements of a medium of fiction built around rules that make it fun to play over that logic, I don't think that's the core of the criticism in this context. It's not a complaint that the armor for female characters is unrealistic, it's a complaint that the female armor is unrealistic and the male armor is comparatively realistic. These are extremely, extremely different complaints, despite containing a lot of the same words.

I don't think male armour is realistic either though. Aside from the armour protects everywhere example above, often you get smaller or more exposing armour offering more defense than a full Chestplate. Armour designs in general aren't realistic (lol rolling about in full suit of armour in Souls games) aside from the odd exception. I understand you're comparing male to female armour, but I think if neither is realistic arguing over which is more unrealistic seems a waste of energy.

Again, my argument was purely to downplay the "It's not realistic" criticism. I don't think that should ever be a factor to game design.

StallionDan · Nov 20, 2017

Morrigan said:
Even silly video game logic follows its own internal logic. A rusty broken knife doesn't hit as hard as the Steel Dagger +1, which again doesn't hit as hard as the Sacrificial Dagger of Kar'ta'kyul (yes, I just made that up, but you know where I'm going here). Is that because of "realism"? No. It's because despite the fantastical setting, a world follows its own internal rules and worked to be more believable while offering a sense of progression for the player.

Games generally do not do this though. Fallout 4 lets you upgrade Tattered Rags to offer more protection than a full suit of Leather Armour for example. Yeah it does the normal, sturdy, heavy progression, but it also has that.

When you have a world like this is a boob chest plate really the thing to complain is unrealistic?

Twig · Nov 20, 2017

StallionDan said:
When you have a world like this is a boob chest plate really the thing to complain is unrealistic?

Yeah.

Here's a spoiler for life in general: "complaining" about (read: criticizing) one thing does not preclude criticizing other things.

Ferrs · Nov 20, 2017

StallionDan said:
Male armours very often have stupid logic to them too when comparing to the real world, but as you put it "A game has to abide by the rules of it's own world", so why don't you let it use its own rules and stop comparing to our world.

Here are some examples from Dragon's Dogma. The Silver Chestplate

Male

Female

"Well the male version clearly offers more protection" you say. By the real world rules sure, but in the rules of the world of Dragon's Dogma they offer the same defense, in fact this defense despite being visibly on the chest only will protect you when hit with a arrow to the face.

It's a videogame without real world rules, don't ignore those rules, replace with real world ones then complain they are not realistic.

I don't think male armour is realistic either though. Aside from the armour protects everywhere example above, often you get smaller or more exposing armour offering more defense than a full Chestplate. Armour designs in general aren't realistic (lol rolling about in full suit of armour in Souls games) aside from the odd exception. I understand you're comparing male to female armour, but I think if neither is realistic arguing over which is more unrealistic seems a waste of energy.

Again, my argument was purely to downplay the "It's not realistic" criticism. I don't think that should ever be a factor to game design.

And why do you think the Dragons Dogma lore says that a metal bikini for women has the same protection than te full metal breastplate for men?

The problem is not that both are unrealistic, the problem is that unrealistic designs are used for sexualization and objectification of women, unlike men (atleast in an equal rate).

Xaszatm · Nov 20, 2017

StallionDan said:
Games generally do not do this though. Fallout 4 lets you upgrade Tattered Rags to offer more protection than a full suit of Leather Armour for example. Yeah it does the normal, sturdy, heavy progression, but it also has that.

When you have a world like this is a boob chest plate really the thing to complain is unrealistic?

Uh...yes? How are you not seeing the point? You are going into such weird and out there statements when the fact remains that the male armor at least artificially looks like armor while the female armor is a bikini. Who cares if rags give more defense? That's completely ignoring the point entirely.

Redcrayon · Nov 20, 2017

StallionDan said:
Games generally do not do this though. Fallout 4 lets you upgrade Tattered Rags to offer more protection than a full suit of Leather Armour for example. Yeah it does the normal, sturdy, heavy progression, but it also has that.

When you have a world like this is a boob chest plate really the thing to complain is unrealistic?

If the reverse were true, and a set of armour looked like badass full plate on a female avatar and a mankini with a giant codpiece on a male one, with both offering little protection from in-game weapons, yeah, I'd be asking why the male set was sillier than the female one instead of the variants being as close to each other as possible. That armour offers protection based on stats rather than visable reaction to in-game physics is a different discussion to sexualising female gear to a far greater extent than male gear, the latter being somewhat more relevant to this thread. I'm not sure that 'both are ridiculous' is fair if that's true but one is also bizarrely sexualised on top of that.

This is one thing that really bugs me in RPGs (and Monster Hunter) to the point where I end up looking up whose armour looks less ridiculous at endgame play as an element of character creation.

Dary · Nov 20, 2017

StallionDan said:
Here are some examples from Dragon's Dogma. The Silver Chestplate

Where the male version is based on what men would actually wear, but the female version...

a harmless rabbit · Nov 20, 2017

StallionDan said:
I don't think male armour is realistic either though. Aside from the armour protects everywhere example above, often you get smaller or more exposing armour offering more defense than a full Chestplate. Armour designs in general aren't realistic (lol rolling about in full suit of armour in Souls games) aside from the odd exception. I understand you're comparing male to female armour, but I think if neither is realistic arguing over which is more unrealistic seems a waste of energy.

Again, my argument was purely to downplay the "It's not realistic" criticism. I don't think that should ever be a factor to game design.

I'm going to assume that my clarification that the critique of disparity between how "realistic" the armor is between sexes was taken here without the intended implication that the disparity in realism was a problem because one design serves solely to titillate, and not merely because one design was "unrealistic" and the other is fully realistic in line with how real world armor actually functions. I had taken that to be obvious because the purpose of the thread is, in fact, a discussion of sexualization and objectification in video games. If that wasn't understood, I apologize for my lack of clarity.

That having been clarified, the question I'd pose to you now is whether you feel it's untrue that the female armor in your specific example is intended to titillate while the male armor is not, or whether you merely intend to take issue with the use of the word "realistic" in the critique? If it's the latter, I don't necessarily disagree with your assertion, but I do question whether a thread specifically dedicated to explaining the reasoning for why sexualization in games makes women uncomfortable is the right venue for that assertion.

StallionDan · Nov 20, 2017

Twig said:
Yeah.

Here's a spoiler for life in general: "complaining" about (read: criticizing) one thing does not preclude criticizing other things.

Then your argument should be "This games armour isn't realistic" not "This games female armour isn't realistic" because the answer to the latter is just pointing out the former.

Ferrs said:
And why do you think the Dragons Dogma lore says that a metal bikini for women has the same protection than te full metal breastplate for men?

It's not lore it's game design. These are above all else games, realism need not apply.

Xaszatm said:
Uh...yes? How are you not seeing the point? You are going into such weird and out there statements when the fact remains that the male armor at least artificially looks like armor while the female armor is a bikini. Who cares if rags give more defense? That's completely ignoring the point entirely.

Rags giving more defense than actual armour is entirely on point when the argument against a boob chestplate is "It's not realistic".

How are you not seeing the point.

Twig · Nov 20, 2017

StallionDan said:
Then your argument should be "This games armour isn't realistic" not "This games female armour isn't realistic" because the answer to the latter is just pointing out the former.

Considering the context of this thread is criticism of sexualization and objectification of women in video games (and media in general), I have no idea why you think it's justifiable to separate the two.

Here's another spoiler for life in general: there's room for nuance and complexity, and you don't have to approach every problem from only one angle. Nor should you. It's naive and ignorant.

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