Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

StallionDan · Nov 20, 2017

Llyrwenne said:
Again, you are completely and utterly missing the point. It is irrelevant that the armor set provides the same armor statistic across gender in the game. That is not the point. You conveniently leave out this part of the post you keep going back to;

" In a game where you can choose your gender like Skyrim, it annoys me when the armors for females aren't nearly as protective as the male version. If you are female and equip the ancient nord armor, the chestplate completely disappears. Most of the other armors change shape upon picking them up, sprouting boob plates, or in the case of the vampire armor, adjusting to provide a boob window."

The criticism is that the same armor set when worn by female characters sprout boob plates or otherwise change shape to exaggeratedly accentuate the female form. The criticism is that a lot of female armor is 'unrealistic' in the sense that there is a disconnect between their visual design and the actual protection they (would) provide whereas that disconnect is not present for most male armor. None of your claims negate any part of those criticisms.

Yeah, I just edited back in and bolded the context of the entire post. He didn't talk about the female form, he talked about protection.

Also "there is a disconnect between their visual design and the actual protection they (would) provide"

And what is this disconnect based on? The real world? So argument is realism...

CannonFodder52 · Nov 20, 2017

Why are you the arbiter of what breaks women's immersion?

Laiza · Nov 20, 2017

UtterlyPerplexed said:
Ah, I'm actually glad you brought up Mobius. I recall the old thread about it on GAF when it was first revealed and I admit I (and many others) called the original design something like "absolutely stupid". I'll freely admit that at the time I wasn't yet exposed to these kind of discussions and perspectives from a lot of women, so it didn't even cross my mind then just how lacking in self-awareness I was when I made that comment. Here was a male character with a relatively skimpy design and I was slightly wringing my nose at it, without stopping to realise that he would have been an anomaly in a genre that is so predominantly filled with the equivalent for female characters. It just never yet occurred to me that my immediate reaction to seeing the main character's original design would have been very similar to many women who genuinely want to experience a game like Xenoblade Chronicles 2 (and many others), only to be disappointed and appalled when they realise it's yet another transparent attempt to appeal to the male gaze. Except obviously women would experience it a hundredfold by comparison.

So yeah, quite telling that they ended up changing the Mobius main character's design to make him look more modest, only to come out with an actual playable female character who looks like...well...

All in all, I'm very thankful for thread topics like this and I commend all the regulars in here, even when the disingenuous trolls are trying to batter down the door in bad faith (I'm going to hazard a guess and say places like Voat are keeping a close eye on this thread). It's comprehensive as heck, genuinely intriguing and has been another valuable resource for me, particularly in helping me to further understand women's perspectives on this issue.

Just wanted to say, posts like this makes putting up with all the BS worth it. Thanks for your understanding!

I just hope there are more and more guys getting revelations like this every day. That'd be great, wouldn't it? I can only hope...

Gestault · Nov 20, 2017

It's really clear when someone is arguing rhetorically and not particularly trying to engage the actual ideas from other people. I'm just reading along, but this whole exchange has been frustrating to follow. There are some well-handled deconstructions here that make it all worth it, in spite of everything else. MaskedNdi and UtterlyPerplexed in particular, thank you.

Xaszatm · Nov 20, 2017

petran79 said:
Maybe I am derailing the thread, but what about scifi representation of the female and male body?

Eg nude androids, robots etc that have barely any sexuality awareness on their own and are artificially created. GITS Innocence movie as one popular example
Or even biological specimens and failed experiments that only closely resemble a human body.

Topic variety and analysis is vast of course, but that aspect of narrative was always fascinating, though few games bothered with it since it isnt that easy to stomach.

These are usually fine, it's usually how other things present them that can make things objectified. Like, you can have the most well-put together deep backstory about why this one cyborg looks like a hot woman and make it work, but if the camera is more focused on her butt and cleavage and the game's world contrives itself to make it so she's put into sexual positions then it's hard for me to take the story seriously. It's all about how everything frames the character, not just the writing, costume or camera, but all three. If one is vastly different from the rest, then it can undermine the point.

But yeah, in general, there's nothing inherently wrong with scifi representation of the feamle and male body. We relate more to more humanoid things (up to a certain point) so that's why most aliens are humanoid, even if it makes no sense.

DerpHause · Nov 20, 2017

StallionDan said:
Yeah, I just edited back in and bolded the context of the entire post. He didn't talk about the female form, he talked about protection.

Also "there is a disconnect between their visual design and the actual protection they (would) provide"

And what is this disconnect based on? The real world? So argument is realism...

No, the disconnect, for me at least, is that the rules of the fantasy world in question appear to not be consistent, regardless of whether either of the sets of rules conform with the real world.

If different genders have differing visual levels of protection in the same game world then that game world in itself isn't treating armor the same between them. This is regardless of how realistic either of the gender's depictions are.

Dary · Nov 20, 2017

petran79 said:
Maybe I am derailing the thread, but what about scifi representation of the female and male body?

Eg nude androids, robots etc that have barely any sexuality awareness on their own and are artificially created. GITS Innocence movie as one popular example
Or even biological specimens and failed experiments that only closely resemble a human body.

Topic variety and analysis is vast of course, but that aspect of narrative was always fascinating, though few games bothered with it since it isnt that easy to stomach.

It's something I've touched on in my own writing (synthetic women designed to a male-devised 'ideal', and the effect being born that 'ideal' can have on someone), but I get the impression it's not exactly a popular/marketable topic...

Deleted member 5865 · Nov 20, 2017

petran79 said:
Maybe I am derailing the thread, but what about scifi representation of the female and male body?

Eg nude androids, robots etc that have barely any sexuality awareness on their own and are artificially created. GITS Innocence movie as one popular example
Or even biological specimens and failed experiments that only closely resemble a human body.

Topic variety and analysis is vast of course, but that aspect of narrative was always fascinating, though few games bothered with it since it isnt that easy to stomach.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxV8gAGmbtk

The fan-service won't be there if the creators don't want it to be there. That is to say, the camera work, consistencies in behavior, etc will speak for true intentions

sanchez · Nov 20, 2017

The sexy way I see it is to just listen to women. I really don't know what to think as my sex (brutish white male) has never made me feel out of place... never felt like I've lost power etc. But my wife has. I just listen, man. If women say "hey that's sexist" then I'm not really in a situation to say otherwise.

All that said I never saw the appeal of virtual boobies even back when I was a young brute playing Tombo Raider for the first time. I guess virtual bits are a fetish for some.

Messofanego · Nov 20, 2017

UtterlyPerplexed said:
Ah, I'm actually glad you brought up Mobius. I recall the old thread about it on GAF when it was first revealed and I admit I (and many others) called the original design something like "absolutely stupid". I'll freely admit that at the time I wasn't yet exposed to these kind of discussions and perspectives from a lot of women, so it didn't even cross my mind then just how lacking in self-awareness I was when I made that comment. Here was a male character with a relatively skimpy design and I was slightly wringing my nose at it, without stopping to realise that he would have been an anomaly in a genre that is so predominantly filled with the equivalent for female characters. It just never yet occurred to me that my immediate reaction to seeing the main character's original design would have been very similar to many women who genuinely want to experience a game like Xenoblade Chronicles 2 (and many others), only to be disappointed and appalled when they realise it's yet another transparent attempt to appeal to the male gaze. Except obviously women would experience it a hundredfold by comparison.

So yeah, quite telling that they ended up changing the Mobius main character's design to make him look more modest, only to come out with an actual playable female character who looks like...well...

All in all, I'm very thankful for thread topics like this and I commend all the regulars in here, even when the disingenuous trolls are trying to batter down the door in bad faith (I'm going to hazard a guess and say places like Voat are keeping a close eye on this thread). It's comprehensive as heck, genuinely intriguing and has been another valuable resource for me, particularly in helping me to further understand women's perspectives on this issue.

Great, reflective post. Wish more of us men understood it this way about the frequency.

Llyrwenne · Nov 20, 2017

StallionDan said:
Yeah, I just edited back in and bolded the context of the entire post. He didn't talk about the female form, he talked about protection.

Also "there is a disconnect between their visual design and the actual protection they (would) provide"

And what is this disconnect based on? The real world? So argument is realism...

The visual design of male armor is generally in line with the type of protection it is expected to provide in the context of the game world.
The visual design of female armor is generally not in line with the type of protection it is expected to provide in the context of the game world and often exaggeratedly accentuates the female form.
Yes, the concept of 'armor' comes from the real world. How does that in any way make the above observations 'wrong' or 'unfair' or whatever you want to characterize them as?

Your argument seems to be that the game says they provide the same protection, thus they provide the same protection, and we cannot say otherwise. It's like reacting to criticism of MGSV's Quiet by saying that she breathes through her skin and therefore can't wear clothes. You are simply using the game's own logic to support the game's own logic.

edit: See also the video linked above by 4cute .

Inkwell · Nov 20, 2017

Laiza said:
Just wanted to say, posts like this makes putting up with all the BS worth it. Thanks for your understanding!

I just hope there are more and more guys getting revelations like this every day. That'd be great, wouldn't it? I can only hope...

I just wanted to say that in the past 8 or so years (including the old board) I've been with this community, threads like this have definitely helped to shape my understanding of different perspectives and societal issues. I'm a cishet white male so I typically stay out of these discussions. I don't feel right pushing my view on sexism, feminism, racism, trans rights, etc, and would prefer to just listen and learn. I just wanted to thank everyone here for putting up with everything, and let people know that these discussions can and do make a difference.

Before I go, there is something I feel I can talk about. Honestly it can be difficult for me to tell who is trolling, and who just doesn't understand sexism in games. Not all the time mind you, but enough to cast a little bit of doubt when some people are accused of arguing in bad faith. I think that sometimes the men posting here don't have enough of a basic understanding of sexism to even argue about it's presence in games. I think this knowledge can be taken for granted sometimes, particularly with how liberal the board is. It shouldn't be anyone's job here to have to explain and teach the basics of sexism 101, but it may be necessary to take a bit of a step back in order to make a point to some people.

There's also the issue of cultural differences and possibly language barriers that interfere with people's understanding. I've been wondering how much it effects the discussion since I would guess that the majority of people here are from the US. I could be wrong, but it seems a lot of this comes from a US perspective rather than a general "western" one.

ShinkuTachi · Nov 20, 2017

Htown said:
why?

People like different things.
At the end of the day, goal of this discussion (I'd think) isn't to take away gratuitous fanservice, bikini armor, titillation, and etc from people; but, to provide more of a balance. The industry is big enough to accommodate a wide range of tastes, but only the tastes of a handful are being accommodated adequately. That's the primary issue as I understand it.

a harmless rabbit · Nov 20, 2017

Inkwell said:
I just wanted to say that in the past 8 or so years (including the old board) I've been with this community, threads like this have definitely helped to shape my understanding of different perspectives and societal issues. I'm a cishet white male so I typically stay out of these discussions. I don't feel right pushing my view on sexism, feminism, racism, trans rights, etc, and would prefer to just listen and learn. I just wanted to thank everyone here for putting up with everything, and let people know that these discussions can and do make a difference.

Before I go, there is something I feel I can talk about. Honestly it can be difficult for me to tell who is trolling, and who just doesn't understand sexism in games. Not all the time mind you, but enough to cast a little bit of doubt when some people are accused of arguing in bad faith. I think that sometimes the men posting here don't have enough of a basic understanding of sexism to even argue about it's presence in games. I think this knowledge can be taken for granted sometimes, particularly with how liberal the board is. It shouldn't be anyone's job here to have to explain and teach the basics of sexism 101, but it may be necessary to take a bit of a step back in order to make a point to some people.

There's also the issue of cultural differences and possibly language barriers that interfere with people's understanding. I've been wondering how much it effects the discussion since I would guess that the majority of people here are from the US. I could be wrong, but it seems a lot of this comes from a US perspective rather than a general "western" one.

You're absolutely not wrong on this. One of the most exhausting things about these kinds of discussions is that it's genuinely in everyone's best interests if you can assume for as long as humanly possible that the other side is genuine in their questions even when it's the same ones coming up again and again, or if they're the same ones that people arguing in bad faith will also use. This isn't just an element of visual design in games that we're working against, but a core foundational element of society that ultimately led to the symptom of video games having these issues.

People genuinely won't always see the things we're criticizing, because they've become so fundamentally normal that sometimes they don't even stand out as much as you'd think to their immediate target audience, and genuine introspection and metacognition--thinking actively about your thought processes and why you think the things you think--are among the most difficult cognitive skills out there even when you're not dealing with something that you grew up being taught was completely normal.

That's not even getting into the more pervasive issues with media criticism and modern fandom, or the genuine tendency for people to think that critique of a work of art is tantamount to an attempt to take it away or stifle an artist's creativity, when critique has been a foundation of artmaking across all disciplines for as long as art has existed.

It's always reassuring to have people pop in and make posts like yours, genuinely.

EDIT: I like the word genuine today.

Redcrayon · Nov 20, 2017

Pyrofrost said:
People like different things.
At the end of the day, goal of this discussion (I'd think) isn't to take away gratuitous fanservice, bikini armor, titillation, and etc from people; but, to provide more of a balance. The industry is big enough to accommodate a wide range of tastes, but only the tastes of a handful are being accommodated adequately. That's the primary issue as I understand it.

I think that's a really elegant summary of a fair few of the discussions and opinions in this thread, nicely done.

HypedBeast · Nov 20, 2017

Pyrofrost said:
People like different things.
At the end of the day, goal of this discussion (I'd think) isn't to take away gratuitous fanservice, bikini armor, titillation, and etc from people; but, to provide more of a balance. The industry is big enough to accommodate a wide range of tastes, but only the tastes of a handful are being accommodated adequately. That's the primary issue as I understand it.

Very well said.

Studge · Nov 20, 2017

sanchez said:
The sexy way I see it is to just listen to women. I really don't know what to think as my sex (brutish white male) has never made me feel out of place... never felt like I've lost power etc. But my wife has. I just listen, man. If women say "hey that's sexist" then I'm not really in a situation to say otherwise.

Well said.

Regarding Quiet, I've never played that game but I think the "breathes through her skin" thing is actually an interesting aspect of her character with a lot of potential that was completely undercut by the way the game framed her, based on what I've seen and read. Ok, so she can't wear many clothes because then she couldn't breathe, fine; that makes me ask how she stays warm when on missions, which are often at night if she's sniper? How do cuts, bruises, and other damage to her skin affect her breathing? Can she swim? Was she born this way?

Maybe the game actually addresses all these points and attempts to make her into a fully realized character but even if they did, the way the game frames her tells the player that none of that matters more than BOOOOOOBS because "Framing and aesthetics supersede the rest of the text. Always. Always. Always." as explained in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKyrUMUervU

The video is about movies but the concept is sound for games too, especially for what is shown in cinematics.

Deleted member 7130 · Nov 20, 2017

Weltall Zero said:
Well, you being on the top page made me notice your avatar is Lord Darcia from Wolf's Rain, at least. :)

*or woman

HyperFerret · Nov 20, 2017

Studge said:
Regarding Quiet, I've never played that game but I think the "breathes through her skin" thing is actually an interesting aspect of her character with a lot of potential that was completely undercut by the way the game framed her, based on what I've seen and read.

As interesting as this concept looks initially, it is broken by the game's own universe. In MGS3, there was an old man who was said to be photosynthetic, yet he wore a heavy amount of clothing. You'd think he'd need a bikini like Quiet to be healthy, but no, full camo army gear... he doesn't have boobs after all. It makes it look like Kojima thought of a hasty excuse instead of planned it out.

BorkBork · Nov 20, 2017

Inkwell said:
Before I go, there is something I feel I can talk about. Honestly it can be difficult for me to tell who is trolling, and who just doesn't understand sexism in games. Not all the time mind you, but enough to cast a little bit of doubt when some people are accused of arguing in bad faith. I think that sometimes the men posting here don't have enough of a basic understanding of sexism to even argue about it's presence in games. I think this knowledge can be taken for granted sometimes, particularly with how liberal the board is. It shouldn't be anyone's job here to have to explain and teach the basics of sexism 101, but it may be necessary to take a bit of a step back in order to make a point to some people.

I think that's where we men who don't have to deal with these issues on a regular basis can step up and shoulder some of the burden. We can be the ones to educate (on a basic but not a personal level) and share what we have learned, like UtterlyPerplexed did. We can do the grunt work so women don't have to exhaust their efforts just to justify themselves.

I'm encouraged by the discourse here, even though it seems like we fall back down to the basic issues every few pages. Progress is never easy. There is always resistance. But the more of us there are, the more of us can come together, learn from one another, and help support those seeking to have their perspectives acknowledged.

Redcrayon · Nov 20, 2017

BorkBork said:
I think that's where we men who don't have to deal with these issues on a regular basis can step up and shoulder some of the burden. We can be the ones to educate (on a basic but not a personal level) and share what we have learned, like UtterlyPerplexed did. We can do the grunt work so women don't have to exhaust their efforts just to justify themselves.

I'm encouraged by the discourse here, even though it seems like we fall back down to the basic issues every few pages. Progress is never easy. There is always resistance. But the more of us there are, the more of us can come together, learn from one another, and help support those seeking to have their perspectives acknowledged.

Having men chip in (without dominating the discussion) also might help to 'normalise'* such discussions on the main page, reducing the number of trolls who think they can dismiss criticism of a medium as being just the whining of a few 'crazy' (insert derogatory term of the week).

Sometimes it's ok to just listen, and I like the way some people have said they do that. I should do it more.

*Not sure if that's the right term. I mean 'drags into the mainstream criticism of games like on the rest of the site'.

petran79 · Nov 20, 2017

@ 4cute Dary & Xaszatm

thanks.

IwazaruK7 · Nov 20, 2017

Pyrofrost said:
At the end of the day, goal of this discussion (I'd think) isn't to take away gratuitous fanservice, bikini armor, titillation, and etc from people; but, to provide more of a balance.

Yes.

But it goes awful when it ends up being "everything is sexism". So far, i can't say this topic isn't toxic from both sides.

p.s.
By the way, that user had interesting thought which was misunderstood (maybe by himself, too!). I mean that one, who spoke about objects / pieces of art that have form of human body*, It's interesting concept that deserves it's own discussion - too bad it was mentioned in lights of objectification only.

*women or man body as abstract form, it shouldn't be attached exclusively to people; it exists on it's own as form / shape.

Pirate Bae · Nov 20, 2017

IwazaruK7 said:
Yes.

But it goes awful when it ends up being "everything is sexism". So far, i can't say this topic isn't toxic from both sides.

p.s.
By the way, that user had interesting thought which was misunderstood (maybe by himself, too!). I mean that one, who spoke about objects / pieces of art that have form of human body*, It's interesting concept that deserves it's own discussion - too bad it was mentioned in lights of objectification only.

*women or man body as abstract form, it shouldn't be attached exclusively to people; it exists on it's own as form / shape.

Is it toxic, then, if a man comes into this thread and calls our opinions baseless and dismisses our feelings just because we're "being too sensitive"? You wouldn't want to defend yourself?

The human body is private and each one should be treated with respect, not demeaned to something anyone can claim ownership of, such as an "abstract concept".

Andrew J · Nov 20, 2017

Re: Realism

Sure, there are tons of things in every video game that aren't "realistic." Most of them don't strongly hurt players' willing suspension of disbelief because they are reasonably necessary or serve an important purpose.

Out-of-place sexy character design, however, is both "unrealistic" and almost always lacks the underlying purpose that allows players to give them a pass, and therefore cause more damage to suspension of disbelief than, say, characters shrugging off bullets to the face.

Studge · Nov 20, 2017

HyperFerret said:
As interesting as this concept looks initially, it is broken by the game's own universe. In MGS3, there was an old man who was said to be photosynthetic, yet he wore a heavy amount of clothing. You'd think he'd need a bikini like Quiet to be healthy, but no, full camo army gear... he doesn't have boobs after all. It makes it look like Kojima thought of a hasty excuse instead of planned it out.

Haha, wow, it's even worse than I realized. Fuck our own internal logic, look at the BEEEWBS and watch her get tortured. Gross.

Andrew J said:
Out-of-place sexy character design, however, is both "unrealistic" and almost always lacks the underlying purpose that allows players to give them a pass, and therefore cause more damage to suspension of disbelief than, say, characters shrugging off bullets to the face.

This reminds me of one of Aloy's outfits in Horizon. Her fire resist armor is the only piece with a bare midriff. The armor that is specifically for protecting you from fire has her whole stomach fully exposed...

It's out of place from a logical standpoint because the looks of the others sets tend to match up with their intended function, but it's also out of place for the game's tone itself since Aloy is such a strong character with a take-no-shit attitude when sexism is thrown her way in the story.

IwazaruK7 · Nov 20, 2017

Pirate Bae said:
Is it toxic, then, if a man comes into this thread and calls our opinions baseless and dismisses our feelings just because we're "being too sensitive"? You wouldn't want to defend yourself?

No, that's not. I might be wrong with "toxic" word, but attitude goes extreme sometimes. But, yeah, if it's provoked reaction...

Pirate Bae said:
The human body is private and each one should be treated with respect, not demeaned to something anyone can claim ownership of, such as an "abstract concept".

Body of specific person - yes, belongs to that person, with likeliness etc. Overall "human bodies" type of shapes - no. It's a geometrical shape at its roots. And from there you go with symbols.

Disrespect for body (from ones' eyes) ends up being actually a respect for it (from anothers'), if you have καλοκαγαθία at base etc.

Ferrs · Nov 20, 2017

Honestly, about Quiet (because I have even said anything about her yet!) to me the worst part is not just her sexualization, it's that she's a scan from a real person.
Like, Kojima did a scan model of Stefanie, and then proceed to turn the fanservice machine up to 11. I dunno... but to me, it just feels SO WRONG.

Redcrayon · Nov 20, 2017

Studge said:
Haha, wow, it's even worse than I realized. Fuck our own internal logic, look at the BEEEWBS and watch her get tortured. Gross.

I hadn't seen that video of Quiet with a bag on her head while her tits get electro-shocked before. The whole sexy/violence/dehumanisation elements all wrapped into one remind me of this.

Crossing Eden · Nov 20, 2017

Andrew J said:
Re: Realism

Sure, there are tons of things in every video game that aren't "realistic." Most of them don't strongly hurt players' willing suspension of disbelief because they are reasonably necessary or serve an important purpose.

Out-of-place sexy character design, however, is both "unrealistic" and almost always lacks the underlying purpose that allows players to give them a pass, and therefore cause more damage to suspension of disbelief than, say, characters shrugging off bullets to the face.

Bingo. Hell even they do try to provide a "why" it's usually incredibly cringey compared to every other story or design explanation.

IwazaruK7 · Nov 20, 2017

Dary said:
synthetic women designed to a male-devised 'ideal', and the effect being born that 'ideal' can have on someone

What do you think about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stepford_Wives ? If you watched or read those.

Dmax3901 · Nov 20, 2017

The dudes coming in here every five pages or so posting a series of bizarre arguments sure love to double post, huh.

Weltall Zero · Nov 20, 2017

Televator said:
*or woman

Man. :)
But yeah, Wolf's Rain rules.

Weltall Zero · Nov 20, 2017

BorkBork said:
I think that's where we men who don't have to deal with these issues on a regular basis can step up and shoulder some of the burden. We can be the ones to educate (on a basic but not a personal level) and share what we have learned, like UtterlyPerplexed did. We can do the grunt work so women don't have to exhaust their efforts just to justify themselves.

That's also what I try to do. I can't make their burden disappear, but I sure as hell can do whatever I can to alleviate it.

BorkBork said:
I'm encouraged by the discourse here, even though it seems like we fall back down to the basic issues every few pages. Progress is never easy. There is always resistance. But the more of us there are, the more of us can come together, learn from one another, and help support those seeking to have their perspectives acknowledged.

I want to think at least some of the people that come, post the same inane arguments, argue for a while, and leave never to be heard from again, are genuinely ignorant, and that of those, we planted the seed of doubt and self-questioning on a few of them. I may be deluding myself, but it's a nice thought that makes this groundhog day more bearable.

Edit: Goddamnit, I didn't remember I had just replied to Televator. Admins, auto-merge posts function when?

Dary · Nov 20, 2017

IwazaruK7 said:
What do you think about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stepford_Wives ? If you watched or read those.

It makes me wonder why has no one produced a Stepford Waifus game yet...

ShinkuTachi · Nov 20, 2017

Dmax3901 said:
The dudes coming in here every five pages or so posting a series of bizarre arguments sure love to double post, huh.

If you're intention is just to openly antagonize people, at least be willing to address who your talking about and the issue you have with what they said. Subtweet-esque posts like that aren't going to contribute to changing people's way of thinking on a given subject matter. It's only going to make people more confrontational with you.

CannonFodder52 · Nov 20, 2017

Pyrofrost said:
If you're intention is just to openly antagonize people, at least be willing to address who your talking about and the issue you have with what they said. Subtweet-esque posts like that aren't going to contribute to changing people's way of thinking on a given subject matter. It's only going to make people more confrontational with you.

I'm sure he's referring to the Drake avatar guy who almost made a penta-post.

Redcrayon said:
I hadn't seen that video of Quiet with a bag on her head while her tits get electro-shocked before. The whole sexy/violence/dehumanisation elements all wrapped into one remind me of this.

This is also really gross.

IwazaruK7 · Nov 20, 2017

Dary said:
why has no one produced a Stepford Waifus

Is it joke or suggestion?

I meant things about plot twist in one of movie adaptations.

Twig · Nov 20, 2017

Redcrayon said:
I hadn't seen that video of Quiet with a bag on her head while her tits get electro-shocked before. The whole sexy/violence/dehumanisation elements all wrapped into one remind me of this.

christ almighty i forgot about this thing

Dary · Nov 20, 2017

IwazaruK7 said:
Is it joke or suggestion?

I meant things about plot twist in one of movie adaptations.

It's a serious suggestion! The female protagonist arrives in a town/high school/whatever filled with the usual waifu stereotypes. But why are they all such cliches? Why is the redhead always temperamental? Or the gothic lolita so melancholic all the time? Are they really people, or just avatars created to appease the local boys/men? If I were writing it, I'd probably go for the former option: they're actual people, playing these roles because they're utterly terrified of the consequences if they don't. I guess I'm not too keen on the whole "they're all just soulless robots" thing; the fear and threat of abuse can break people, actual abuse, mental and/or physical, even more so. That's my own take, anyways, based on personal experience. Also, probably pushing the boundaries of the thread topic XD

Dream_Journey · Nov 20, 2017

C'mooon, developers are doing half naked armors for female characters because they don't need more to destroy their enemies while mens needs full body armor for it. They actually trying to show how powerfull are womens, lol.

sarcasm, but i hope i didn't gave them new excuse. :/

Dmax3901 · Nov 20, 2017

Pyrofrost said:
If you're intention is just to openly antagonize people, at least be willing to address who your talking about and the issue you have with what they said. Subtweet-esque posts like that aren't going to contribute to changing people's way of thinking on a given subject matter. It's only going to make people more confrontational with you.

I'm backseat modding, perhaps. I'd just appreciate it if people would take the time to edit their first post instead of making new ones over and over.

petran79 · Nov 20, 2017

CannonFodder52 said:
This is also really gross.

There was a work of art I saw many years ago that featured the same body though it was more revealing, showing even the genitals and it was wrapped in ribbons. It was a plastic sculpture or something. Probably wanted to show the commercialization of the female body.

teacup · Nov 20, 2017

I mean sadly it seems so ingrained that I'm not sure we will see many changes anytime soon. Best we can do is call out the most egregious examples to get a higher profile response (For example- the outrage over the Dead Island figurine probably made a few steps towards developers thinking "hmm, maybe not") but even then I'm a hypocrite on this- despite feeling like I am a fairly progressive person, I still buy every Metal Gear Solid game despite Hideo not exactly having a great track record with this (Especially Quiet in MGSV)

Sadly what's happened though is as I've got older I've just skipped on games and genres and shows that have stupid examples of this. I used to love watching anime as a teen and play a lot of the typical 'anime' style games. Now I feel embarrassed to see how ridiculous they are with how absolutely sexist / creepy so many of them are. To the point where I just simply don't play or watch any of them anymore. I don't want to have to explain to my wife that yes, the game or series I'm watching is actually good despite a 14 year old in an open chested shirt and short school dress with 36DDD Breasts popping out of here being a recurring character. I'm sure I'm missing out on some good stuff but I simply don't care at this point. And the same is happening with a lot of RPGs, both Japanese and Western ones, with the metal bikinis and things like that.

I doubt the demographic of 'gamers getting older with families' will ever trump "let's show some tits and get sales from horny teenager" but it's certainly lost my dollars.

Llyrwenne · Nov 20, 2017

BorkBork said:
I think that's where we men who don't have to deal with these issues on a regular basis can step up and shoulder some of the burden. We can be the ones to educate (on a basic but not a personal level) and share what we have learned, like UtterlyPerplexed did. We can do the grunt work so women don't have to exhaust their efforts just to justify themselves.

I'm encouraged by the discourse here, even though it seems like we fall back down to the basic issues every few pages. Progress is never easy. There is always resistance. But the more of us there are, the more of us can come together, learn from one another, and help support those seeking to have their perspectives acknowledged.

It's very encouraging to see and very much appreciated. <3

Andrew J said:
Re: Realism

Sure, there are tons of things in every video game that aren't "realistic." Most of them don't strongly hurt players' willing suspension of disbelief because they are reasonably necessary or serve an important purpose.

Out-of-place sexy character design, however, is both "unrealistic" and almost always lacks the underlying purpose that allows players to give them a pass, and therefore cause more damage to suspension of disbelief than, say, characters shrugging off bullets to the face.

Agreed. I'll add that part of the problem seems to be that some are so used to sexualized designs that they no longer see them as 'out of place'. I hope we can change that through continuing to have these discussions.

D.A. · Nov 20, 2017

Nav said:
Just trying to understand what you're saying...

Basically, artificial intelligence will reach a point where objects exist whose appearance is indistinguishable from that of humans? The thing is, that actually raises more moral questions, not fewer...I do sort of get what you're pointing to, though it seems secondary to the main point of the thread. There may come a future when we can accept all bodies as mere objects, because they have no bearing or permanence with relation to our consciousness. For instance, if I could transfer my sentience between any manner of different physical forms, then maybe there isn't something inherently special or important to protect about a given one of those forms. But that doesn't help with the world we currently live in, where we have very little autonomy over our physical manifestations and, as a result, those are often intimately connected with our sense of identity and personhood.

Indeed this idea that male bodies belong to men and female bodies to women is counter to those who do not identify with a particular gender or those with a particular body shape who are of the opposite gender.

Right now it is difficult to change body shape or skin color. But the particulars of an epoch do not change what is right or wrong. Slavery was once viewed as right. Future generations wont be bound to one body shape, and it is not like that will change right from wrong, regards artistic expression.

But I view the bodies given by nature as pseudorandom avatars. The particulars of gender, hair length, etc. Public domain.

Manu said:
Neither is realistic.

The male version makes your character look cool.

The female version makes your character look like a stripper.

Do you not see the point?

The male version looks like a nude male chest painted silver. You could do the same for the women, but it'd be just as sexualized as a boob armor. Artistically some may prefer the later.

Pirate Bae said:
Is it toxic, then, if a man comes into this thread and calls our opinions baseless and dismisses our feelings just because we're "being too sensitive"? You wouldn't want to defend yourself?

The human body is private and each one should be treated with respect, not demeaned to something anyone can claim ownership of, such as an "abstract concept".

True, regards a particular likeness. But what happens with identical twins? Say you secretly had one. Cant they sext or enter the adult entertainment industry without your permission? Or does their freedom supersede such?

Fairy Godmother · Nov 20, 2017

Redcrayon said:
I hadn't seen that video of Quiet with a bag on her head while her tits get electro-shocked before. The whole sexy/violence/dehumanisation elements all wrapped into one remind me of this.

Ugh geez. Whoever thought it was a good idea needs to be fired and visit a shrink.

Redcrayon · Nov 20, 2017

D.A. said:
True. But what happens with identical twins? Say you secretly had one. Cant they sext or enter the adult entertainment industry without your permission? Or does their freedom supersede such?

As a twin myself, we're still individual people with our own bodies, and we can tell the (minor) differences in photographs through a load of tiny details, despite other people mixing us up. It's even easier in video, where body language, gait, speech, physical and verbal tics play a part too. 'What if your secret twin 100% identical sibling was a porn star?' seems like a bit of a reach (and the plot of a trashy novel :D ) to justify an argument of anyone's lack of ownership of their own physical form.

The male version looks like a nude male chest painted silver. You could do the same for the women, but it'd be just as sexualized as a boob armor. Artistically some may prefer the later.

The difference in secondary sexual characteristics between men and women is why those two examples wouldn't be 'just as sexualised' as each other.

Llyrwenne · Nov 20, 2017

D.A. said:
The male version looks like a nude male chest painted silver. You could do the same for the women, but it'd be just as sexualized as a boob armor. Artistically some may prefer the later.

Redcrayon said:
The difference in secondary sexual characteristics between men and women is why those two examples wouldn't be 'just as sexualised' as each other.

Also worth pointing out that this type of armor actually exists.

CICUU · Nov 20, 2017

CannonFodder52 said:
Why are you the arbiter of what breaks women's immersion?

Very good question. It's a leftist thing. They believe they know what's best for everyone and have a compulsion to regulate everything.

I can see where this whole thing is going. What the left wants.

Eventually, the left is going to get the government to form something like "interactive entertainment content board". It will be run by some random unknown unelected people who will go through every game's content for "hate speech", "sexism", "racism", etc.

They will determine what sort of content we are allowed to consume. And just like every other regulation, it will do more harm than good.

First of all, it will require tax payers money to run it, publishers have to pay a fee to get their game evaluated for 'harmful' content, which will lead to more delays in release dates, because they might be forced to redo game assets the board finds offensive. In addition to that, it will add more cost to games, indies will have difficulties going through all these regulations and last but not least, creative vision is being altered.

This is my prediction. It's what the left wants. They want to regulate everything. They want their subjective vision to govern reality.

Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

Hopes and Dreams SAVE the World

Patient hunter

User requested account closure

Patient hunter

Edelgard Feet Appreciator

Patient hunter

Game Developer

Game Developer

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account

Hopes and Dreams SAVE the World

Backward compatible

Patient hunter

Hopes and Dreams SAVE the World