Don't blame Serena for her fans being shitty.
Those fans have agency. Those fans can choose not to be shitty. They're choosing to be shitty on their own.
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Tennis officials shaken by lack of support for chair umpire Carlos Ramos
- Thread starter Squarehard
- Start date
Those fans have agency. Those fans can choose not to be shitty. They're choosing to be shitty on their own.
Now see the cops response will depend on if you're Black or White.
Great.
Now what could prevent any tennis players accusing discrimination if ANY umpire is issuing ANY kind of warning towards their behavior in the court.
You people saying 'we don't pay to see the umpire' are disgusting, you don't give a fuck about all the people that makes a tournament works aside the players themselves. You also don't play to see the ball kids, let the players pick up their balls after every point too.
No wonder they're considering a boycott, considering how people demand that they should act like nothing more than just a decoration during matches, and any warning or decision to uphold the rules they make can be upended by players calling then names, approved by official organization like WTA too.
Now what could prevent any tennis players accusing discrimination if ANY umpire is issuing ANY kind of warning towards their behavior in the court.
You people saying 'we don't pay to see the umpire' are disgusting, you don't give a fuck about all the people that makes a tournament works aside the players themselves. You also don't play to see the ball kids, let the players pick up their balls after every point too.
No wonder they're considering a boycott, considering how people demand that they should act like nothing more than just a decoration during matches, and any warning or decision to uphold the rules they make can be upended by players calling then names, approved by official organization like WTA too.
I'm going to quote myself from the other thread below.
As far as accusing Ramos without evidence, you don't need a documented history of bias before you can accuse someone of bias. Think about studies that have shown implicit bias when it comes to African American names in resumes or judging the persuasiveness of a piece of legal writing when the author is perceived to be black. People (especially black people) knew long before there was statistical evidence to support their claims of implicit bias that this was the case. According to this line of thinking, one could only raise the question of implicit bias AFTER these studies. It's raising the questions and making the accusations that leads to the studies and research that oftentimes do support the original claim "with absolutely no evidence."
In the legal world, Ramos would win this "case" easily. Cases of implicit bias, selective enforcement and the like place the burden of proof on the plaintiff (Serena) to prove that the law enforcement would have acted differently but for the plaintiff's [sex, race, etc.]. That's an incredibly difficult burden to prove, which is why we see these cases rarely win. But intuitively, we know that the bias occurs exponentially more than we are able to prove. As applied here, sure it's far from definitive that Ramos acted with bias. But that does not mean that Serena's contention is completely invalid and unfair as lots have argued. If we flipped the burden of proof, those opposing Serena similarly cannot prove that Ramos acted without bias.
Anyways, we have reached the point where people argue that there was no abuse, that being abusive isn't wrong, or that it's not serious enough. So it's enough for me.
I'm bowing out. Thanks for the discussion.
I'm bowing out. Thanks for the discussion.
I am 100% fine with this argument, and it is something I agree with. What I don't agree with is selectively applying it when it is convenient.
I'm just gonna throw this out there, the fact that Serena and those defending Serena are being portrayed as unknowing of the sport, idol worshiping, or just plain irrational by numerous posters is incredibly telling. And to be honest, lets me know how mysogynoir threads in Era would go.
And this goes beyond who was to blame and into tactics.
(note: this does not apply to the people who directly attacked Ramos and Osaka)
And this goes beyond who was to blame and into tactics.
(note: this does not apply to the people who directly attacked Ramos and Osaka)
Oh my god. Yes, you fucking do.
I'm not going to read the rest of your post.
We have 23 years of Serena William playing professional tennis. Can you or anybody point to where she has cultivated a bunch of wild fans and sent them after people intentionally? Cause otherwise I don't get all this "she knew what she was doing shit". She's been the top tennis talent and publicly spoken for how long? Does the age of twitter suddenly mean anything she says is a targeting?
Yep, I am sure there would be absolutely 0 difference in scale...
I swear some people are just not operating in reality.
It has literally nothing to do with it being intentional or not and is not relevant to the point.
Ah, I didn't realize that Nadal has threatened to blacklist 2 chair umpires lol What a sportsman!
My apologies
LOL
I think it is safe to say that Nadal will not be naming his kid Carlos
How does it not? Her calling something sexist is not the equivalent of "go on twitter and attack this person". She has zero history of being out here using her platform to rally people into being shitty. So the idea that she has to shut the fuck up lest stupid sports people do stupid sports shit is puzzling to me. I don't even agree with her but Serena is not out her saying things she doesn't believe in to mobilize crazies. So framing it like she's responsible for death threats is disingenuous.
Double standards are a thing.
Whataboutism gets rightfully shat on when it's used in other threads. About Serena? Nope.
When twittershitters set their followers on some poor guy or gal(like Musk likes to do), people are rightfully up in arms about it. Serena set all of her faithful on Ramos (directly) and Osaka (indirectly). So what do people do? They argue that Osaka getting hate online is to her benefit.
Referees deserve all the protection and affordances their respective sporting organizations can offer. That doesn't make them unequivocally above critique from athletes lest the accusing party be responsible for the targeted harassment they were likely going to receive anyways because sports fans are crazy
Yeah same thing pro football said a few years back. And everyone regretted it.I mean, if they want to boycott?
Nobody's paying to see them. Know your roles.
Because it is not relevant to what I am talking about. I am specifically talking about "unintentional", for lack of a better word, interactions that result in harassment. If you want to have that discussion with someone else, by all means.
I agree with you, but ignoring the difference in scale that would exist in the two situations is just naive.
Serena literally told the crowd to stop booing Osaka.
She did not set her faithful on people, Christ you make her sound like a fucking cult leader.
Also it's mind blowing to see people saying an insult like 'thief' is 'not a big deal', especially when it relates to your integrity in a professional setting.
I guess people nowadays would just laugh it off if any of their coworkers/boss/underlings saying, 'You're a thief, you know that?'
I guess people nowadays would just laugh it off if any of their coworkers/boss/underlings saying, 'You're a thief, you know that?'
It is 100% exactly that when THERE IS NO EVIDENCE that the person Serena is accusing of being sexist, is actually sexist. She is absolutely siccing her fan base on him intentionally every day that she doesn't walk her accusation back.
She could easily say "I'm sorry I accused Ramos of being sexist...upon further review it looks like he's just a bad umpire who likes giving code violations for minor offenses because he thinks he's more important than the game. There are many instances of sexism in tennis such as the French Open banning my catsuit and Alizé Cornet being issued a code violation for changing her shirt on the court when men like Nadal can do that on a regular basis...these examples of sexism combined with my contentious history at the US open caused me to assume something sexist was happening to me on the court on Saturday when in reality, that does not appear to be the case."
Easy and it brings light to real life double standards which can be rectified.
I would be mad, but I wouldn't yell at the police officer telling him to apologize to me.
I don't get what your point is. You said this originally:
Having a fan base doesn't mean you think about them every time you get into it with another player or official. It doesn't mean you think about what they will do whenever you say something. It also doesn't mean you pick how your fanbase reacts. She is arguable the best female tennis player ever, she doesn't hand pick the fans she has and as an outspoken black female athlete, she isn't out here attracting the typical crazies either.
What you are arguing is ridiculous.
...again, where was it said that he was receiving death threats?
You can but that doesn't lend credence to the accusation.
Sure, generally speaking, an implicit bias probably exists.
But I don't think that can be readily extrapolated to Ramos' own behavior, or judgments.
And I certainly don't think it means Ramos deserves the level of scorn and harassment this has drawn to him, especially not so without evidence.
As I stated before, I'd love to see if someone studied games Ramos umpired before and if (statistically) he excuses less acts when it comes to women.
What's the treatment of officials like at junior levels for tennis?
I played rugby union in high school and there was a lot of emphasis on respecting the referees and I think it ends up manifesting at the highest levels (although I don't watch much outside of some international test matches).
Maybe since tennis is largely an individual sport it's more difficult to deal with umpires when the player is heated, rather than defering to the captain.
I played rugby union in high school and there was a lot of emphasis on respecting the referees and I think it ends up manifesting at the highest levels (although I don't watch much outside of some international test matches).
Maybe since tennis is largely an individual sport it's more difficult to deal with umpires when the player is heated, rather than defering to the captain.
Please read the rest. It puts this sentence in context. I'm not saying one should just go out and make wild accusations willy nilly, like you assume I'm saying. According to you, for every black person that's ever been walking down a street and a woman has moved to the other side of the street, or clutched her purse just a little tighter, for every woman that has been in a meeting and a guy has interrupted her just to make the same point she made previously, for them to believe there was bias is completely unacceptable, eh? "It's completely baseless. They can't prove it!"
By the way, asserting arguments and then sticking your fingers in your ears when someone tries to respond is no way to have a debate.
I don't see the controversy. She was being coached, she broke her racket, and she repeatedly insulted the official. Poor behaviour on all three counts that shouldn't be tolerated. I was with her on the whole "black panther" thing, but that doesn't give you license to behave poorly.
Getting strong parallels here between people passing judgment on Ramos and hockey fans who think the refs should "put away the whistle" late in the game.
honestly serena using her kids to prove that she wouldn't cheat is pretty lame, and the claim that it was a thumbs up from the coach is just a blatant lie.
I feel like you are arguing with someone else that isn't me, because I agree with you.
Maybe go further back in the conversation to get the full context? My argument very specifically applied to the idea that this ideology would not be applied universally in the case of a specific poster.
Man...
Your argument is eerily similar to people that mocks various victims of harrasnents that request protection because 'lol, I'm sure the person saying that threatening stuff about you will not do anything at all, because hey, many people are crazy but most of them won't do anything anyways'
Not much of a gotcha when I replied with yes it wouldn't because things are different than other things.
It doesn't matter, the situation brought upon by her actions during the match gave some people (certainly some in this forum) the impression that Osaka didn't deserve the win (particularly to people that didn't even watch it) or that she had somehow stolen the match from her. Result? A flurry of hate directed towards Osaka.
I did say indirectly. At least you didn't try to excuse what she did to Ramos. Like I noted in the other thread, it's just unbelievable that Serena accused Ramos of tarnishing her reputation after she was given a warning for coaching, considering what she was about to pull moments later.
p.s. it's her fans that defend her tooth and nail that makes her fandom appear cultish. Celebrity worship in all its glory.
I mean, if they want to boycott?
Nobody's paying to see them. Know your roles.
these guys are the top of their field. Remember when this happened in the NFL? It was a disaster. The next best guys up were way worse.
If Serena gets pulled over and ticketed for speeding, then screams and throws stuff in the car, then gets arrested, and then the cop gets his life threatened, will you down play it because "Serena didn't order it" as well?
Something I always thought of as somewhat implied is how, in most such circumstances, there's no other reason for the biased person to be "crossing the street or clutching their purse", so to speak.
(I don't claim to be very knowledgeable on that, though.)
According to what I've heard, Ramos is a strict umpire. I personally find it reasonable that such a person would call a penalty within the circumstances of this game.
You realize cops still shoot famous black people right?
You're the one who dragged police analogy into this.
Probably shouldn't do that.
Again, where is it stated he received death threats? Like, was there an article about this? The article in the OP mentions that he was "thrown to the wolves" but that doesn't imply death threats.
Actually no, I didn't. Another poster made the analogy of getting a cop giving a speeding ticket for barely going over the limit not being right to do or some shit. Thanks for reading the thread tho.
On top of that you're automatically assuming this MADE UP HYPOTHETICAL officer is racist and might kill Serena.
Probably shouldn't do that.
This is the vibe I'm getting. After all of these comments, I frequently hear, "They should allow coaching, too!"
Rolling my eyes so hard. I hate it when people try to force the traditions and decorum of another sport into something they don't watch.
Tennis matches are also supposed to be conducted in silence (except for in between points). Another shocking revelation of tennis.
Stop trying to twist this. We have one person making very clear accusations against another individual. Unless you're hunting witches, accusations require supporting evidence. Evidence is not "Well, you see people are inherently biased or racist and you can read these studies I linked".
Serena accused Ramos of:
1. Making calls against her that he does not give out to men
2. Being a liar
3. Being a thief
Just provide evidence for any one of those claims. It should not be that difficult if they are true.
Serena did the exact opposite of "set the faithful on Osaka" even indirectly because she directly told people to congratulate Osaka. Did YOU watch the match?
You ain't paying into a concert to look at security neither but if security doesn't show up you're shit out of luck.
Without a ref there is no game. Period.
As for this case it's just a bad case of sour losing.