-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
- Start date
- Status
Meanwhile we can use your posts as a good way to gauge whether the sanctity of Kojima is more important to you than women wanting to be fairly represented within video games.
It's honestly one of the most fascinating things I've seen in all my time following anime and Japanese art communities, Raita's slide from a relatively technically skilled artist who actually knows what a human looks like and exaggerates for effect to whatever the hell happened. There's been such a twisted pursuit of exaggerated sex appeal that it appears to have made him forget what women even look like.
I think the thing that bothers me most about both of the women's designs is that they're so, so close to something solid and memorable across the board, if they'd been given a better sense of balance in both their accessorizing and general silhouettes and Riley's colors were a bit more muted and reasonable. Like, they're nine tenths of the way to absolutely fantastic and that last 10% just massacres them.
Yea, if I recall you can ask out, comment on the body of, or "frisk" most, if not all the women in the game.
Katrina is explicitly the worst thing in the game though.
(always funny when I read guys complaining about Dick's character assassination due to him being reduced to his butt and looks. hmmm.....)
Personally i had to quit Westward due to how unequally it treated men and women. Maybe that resolved itself later on (cause that actually would be a great plot point), but I saw no attempts to acknowledge it from what I saw. All of the women robots had positions under men usually love interest or prostitute and the way the nude bodies were framed was completely different. They did have very clinical depictions of both (which is good) but they would get into situations where they'd show naked women clearly intended for pleasure and maybe a few men and the women tended to fit more the flawless that one might expect robots to be and the men had more age, weight, and general attractiveness variation.
The obvious question about it is was it intent on the in universe male creators, which if acknowledged is interesting. Or does it not even matter because the out of universe creators framed it in a way that would be pleasurable to irl men. It was very weird watching a show about characters who have yet to gain free will being forced to be sex objects to other people and that being nearly exclusive to one gender.
Probably also didn't help that the year before Westwood was Ex Machina which does cover these things (tho not explicitly) and also Mad Max Fury Road which handled women gaining empowerment way different.
First of all, you're blowing this out of proportion. I never used the "auteur should have artistic freedom" argument in any of Mu comments so don't say that I changed the tone of my argument. I was very consistent with my point that Konami could have pressured Kojima to create more sexualized female characters.
I already changed my perspective on the issue anyways thanks to some level-headed arguments given by other users. No need for you to start acting in this manner.
Never have I ever justified or condoned any of the MGS/Snatcher female characters being sexualized. It seems you didn't read my posts carefully and just assumed I'm one of those people who defend Kojima even it means going against what's right. The only thing that I argued was that labelling Kojima as a pervert without considering other reasons as to why the female characters were sexualized can be a bit too much. You can say his games don't represent female characters as well as they should because that's a valid argument. I just don't like labelling others.
I don't even think it's a particularly bad label, if he'd own it and not postulate about how we'll reconsider our words and deeds.
Just own it.
I didn't read your posts prior to this page, so I apologize if my assumption was wrong. Still, I honestly don't think this is the right thread to defend him. He at the very best has nothing against blatant sexualization just for the sake of masturbation material (and literally nothing else) in his games and at worst is the sole reason those things exist in his games. Either is pretty bad, you know.
you mean Raita the original character designer? that's just his style, and VC is him going off his usual style
Yes well, as many people in this thread have said, his style as time went on, sucks.
I really don't need my promotional art to resemble high selling hentai scenes.
No worries, I understand. I think you're right in regards to his games having questionable female characters that are sexualized for the sake of fan service. Its a shame because his games are great and all, especially his stories. For me, I've never seen such a powerful female character like The Boss in any other video game. She's the quintessential female character that should be seen in every action game. I do hope that Kojima backs away from sexualization of any female characters in Death Stranding.
History tells us Majority/=right. There was a day intersex relations may not have been accepted by the majority as adequate for mainstream media. Right now, I'm not entirely sure something like a trans main romantic interest in a mainstream product would fly with the majority.
Not saying that this is the same, just pointing out that just because the majority is bothered by something doesn't inherently make it wrong.
You know what I mean. If his direction is ever increasing the perversion level on all of his designs for it all to simply resemble high selling H-anime, it's not something I want to be a part of. Someone needs to help him reel his shit in or we get Horseshoe hoof chested Selveria on mobile trading cards.
And quote a single person that was using that argument?
This train of thought stemmed from someone saying if male characters were treated like female character in terms of the level and how commonly they are sexually objectivied. Male gamers would be complaining up a storm everywhere, IE that FF character.
It is literally one of my favorite things in comics that he keeps getting recognized while undercover because of his ass.
It's referring to clear intentions behind the design of the characters. MGS makes it known when a character is intended to be viewed lustfully with the use of the camera, bringing attention by making certain body parts the subject of the player's viewpoint. It doesn't matter how often we see her; when Quiet pops up, the game will draw the player's viewpoint to her chest or butt often times by zooming in on it or having it protrude towards you. I'm using examples of MGS (or even MGS4 specifically) telling the player "Hey, look at ____'s ___" to compare it to Old Snake and conclude that if it was MGS4's intention to objectify him then they did a fairly poor job
In my mind, I generally refer to the types who you see in this thread and elsewhere with the "Hey boobs are great. The bigger the better!" Mentality as Hopeless Horndogs. I like the alliteration.
I'd love to see the internet reaction to a more sensibly designed Tifa in Remake. Honestly very unsure what we'll see there.
He's a talented shithead.
He's a talented shithead.
There would certainly be meltdowns. personally I would love to see a design akin to her KH look.
Is it just me or does the bloke kneeling with the machine gun, judging by where everyone's feet are as they are lined up, look like he's pointing it at the guy next to him or the sniper, and with his finger on the trigger? Weapon discipline 101, soldier!
I do like what's going on with the girl on the far right. Not sure why it doesn't cover all, but it's interesting and stylish (and yeah I'm fine with game characters adhering to a necessary "fashion component" every so often --- having all military uniforms for everyone can make things a little drab, especially for a series that does try to push the creative in a vaguely-historical setting) (and hopefully the girl in blue is more behind the scenes because goddamn she'd be an easy target).
Hey look, it doesn't have to be so black and white! :D
If I had to guess, I'd bet we're going to get a lot of [strike]Accent[/strike] Crisis Core derivatives.
If the past month has taught us anything, the ones with a lot of talent and influence are usually the ones to be pretty shitty when it comes to things.
Last edited:
You don't know that. And conveniently for you, you never will.
Emphasis on the bolded.
At last something we do agree on.
Yeah, George Kamitani for example may get a lot of flak for his super exaggerated designs, but at least he's 100% honest about himself being a perv.
Even so, I think one can respect Kojima as a creator and even as a person, while also acknowledging he's a huge closeted pervert. And I say this as someone who believes he has made nothing of significant worth since MGS3 (and I haven't even played MGS5 even though I got it from PS+).
Last edited:
The way i see it is is part of online fetishism of sugardaddies, it's not as serious of course but i feel there's a correlation with the internet culture surrounding it and how it changed erotic queer media.
Does saying you enjoy the MGS games exactly as they are, including Quiet in MGSV count as defending him or are we referring to something else?
I mean I do believe it's possible to acknowledge sexualization of female characters has its issues but still enjoy it, no?
Don't care what anyone says, MGS5 had a damn near perfect story that was executed rather shakily. Even Quiet would have been great if Kojima's libido hadn't gotten in the way.
EDIT: Literally everything amazing about that character was entirely independent of her blatant sexualization and everything bad about her was a direct result of it.
I have never seen someone so obviously hobbled by their creator not being able to keep it in their pants.
There would certainly be meltdowns. personally I would love to see a design akin to her KH look.
Same.
It was Nomura's idea to do that but there's also pressure coming from "purists". We'll see what happens.
Power brings nasty things out of some people when they feel safe.
In that case we will surely hear rabid defenses of his creative vision... right? :)
I mean, for most people in this thread there's really no other option. If you like stealth games like MGS5 then you're probably already a fan despite Quiet being a dumb character design. I know I enjoyed the game a lot, but that doesn't mean I can't criticize Quiet.
I meant enjoy the sexualization, not necessarily the game itself
I liked how quiet was presented personally, doesn't mean I won't acknowledge the representation can be problematic.
Yeah, there's nothing wrong with liking it. I think it's something that has been repeated fairly often in this thread, but the issue most definitely comes down to just how widespread the sexualization is rather than just hating on sexy characters. I'm not an idiot- I get why people like Quiet. Like you said, she brings baggage with her that goes beyond that, but I don't think anyone can fault someone for finding a scantily clad woman attractive.
Enjoying something and claiming that it doesn't potentially have negative effects or isn't problematic are very different ballgames. If we couldn't enjoy stuff that was problematic in some way there wouldn't be much media left to enjoy or consume. As long as you're able to engage in higher level thinking and critique the things you like and/or recognize the potential issues with it, I don't think there's any issue with liking what you like, generally speaking. What gets me, personally, is blindness to the kind of damage that unrestrained pandering via sexualization can do, or outright ignoring the opinions of people who're bothered by it and claiming that they shouldn't be bothered.
Reacting positively to being pandered to doesn't make you a bad person, or an opponent of social progress. That acknowledgement and a willingness to discuss and critique it when necessary is the most important thing here. I mean, I've repeatedly been extremely critical of Xenoblade 2 in this thread, but I actually rather like Pyra's design in a vacuum. That doesn't mean I don't think it was a bad call to put it in the tier of JRPG that comes closest to mass-market international appeal outside of Final Fantasy, let alone attributing it to a character whose personality seems to be the polar opposite of the kind of person who'd run around in such an audacious peak anime getup. It runs counter to the game's ability to reach the audiences I feel it should've, and that's a shame, whether I personally like the design or not.
It's my favorite thing in the world that "artistic freedom" is the shield people so often hide behind, but no matter how many times more or less every artist under the sun expresses to them that critique and feedback are one of the most important parts of the artistic process they refuse to engage. It's like they think that a commercial artist's "creative vision" is something granted unto them from a muse on high and not already the product of constant feedback, tweaking, and evaluation of market trends.
...I think I blame pre-college art classes so rarely teaching kids what critique even is almost as much as I'd accuse people of being disingenuous and fully knowing what they're doing, but a lot of them definitely know what they're doing. =_=
Last edited:
I wonder why he asked that question here rather than in the suggestions thread. I mean, surely I should give him the benefit of the doubt, and not interpret his post as veiled thread whining and passive-aggr-
Oh. Right.
Oh. Right.
I made a topic back in the old country about guys not really getting it on a level beyond the intellectual because in geek media, even when dudes are drawn half naked, it's in a way dudes are comfortable with. I don't have the freedom to recreate that entire post at this very moment, but to sum it up, the first time I ever got a real, visceral sampling of that feeling was here
Because that is the kind of costume we should be putting 40-50% of male characters in if we're talking about coming to an inkling of understanding of how the other side feels.
The operative word here is 'gratuitous.' Down to his waistline this would be standard 'look at my perfect masculine form' fare. But then it keeps going, letting us definitively answer the question of 'how's Namor's manscaping?' The sleeves and pauldrons making sure to cover every bit of flesh that isn't at least a little scandalous and potentially titillating.
Talking to my fellow men at this point, especially the ones who don't get it: Imagine that costume, or a variation thereof, in almost every single game. Not as an alternate, but as the male lead's primary 'iconic' look.
Imagine that, since this is the primary character, there is at least one male character in the game that dresses even more provocatively. I'm talking full on assless pants and the camera makes sure to get good and tight on that crack whenever he steps on screen.
Now put those dudes on the cover of every other god damned box on the shelf.
You wouldn't want people to catch you holding that game, let alone playing it. You'd be uncomfortable every single second of it, right? Amd worst of all, you couldn't do anything about it. If you want to play games you just have to shut up and deal with it. And occasionally the devs would throw you a main character with a functional pair of pants and a working knowledge of what a shirt was.
You'd be pretty dissatisfied and I haven't even saddled you with all the real world systemic issues women have to deal with yet.
I think this is a good start but I wanted to bring up something that really seems to make dudes uncomfortable: when male characters display vulnerability or emotional openness. I can't tell you how many posts I've read over the years just dogging on characters like that for being "whiny", "annoying", "weak", etc. and wanting a way to savagely murder them in-game. This, of course, is something that women generally find appealing and you see it in characters who are designed to be romanceable by female characters. I also think this is part of the reason why questions about what a sexualized male character looks like are sort of off the mark, because a lot of what women find appealing in male characters is not as strictly visual, and doesn't really fall under "sexualization", per se. I think this also partially explains why characters like Kratos aren't particularly popular with women...I mean sure, he's not wearing much but the only emotion he has is rage and he treats women like shit.
So yeah, imagine a majority of games featuring male characters with outfits you find alienating to look at, who also want to pour their hearts out to you once you crack their sexy, rugged exterior. My experiences in gaming communities tell me this would not go over well with a looooot of straight dudes.
And yes, yes I know, #notallwomen and #notallmen
Now that he's hidden this thread he won't post something asinine and get banned, shame.
I tend to go both ways when it come to this, tbh. Like, to me, one of the most beautiful women in the history of video games is Arianrhod from Kiseki (there is a gallery at the bottom of this wiki if you want to see her). If she were ever sexualized, I would honestly be pretty pissed. At the same time, I personally don't have an issue with Xenoblade 2, and the character design choices. What I personally steer clear from is games that depend on sexualization or are all about that (Compile Heart games, for example). I find games that "depend" on sexualization are almost always shit, and I'm just not into playing shit games.
No problem. I hope I didn't give you the impression that I was pissed or something. We're good :)
I have agreed with a good bit of what you had to say, but we will have to agree to disagree on this. Primarily due to the fact that I don't feel eradication is a solution. I agree that there is still progress to be made. I agree with the idea of finding a balance. I agree with providing a selection that appeals to everyone. I don't agree with the idea that everything should be made to appeal to everyone, or that sexualization in character designs is something that needs to be "eradicated."
I hope I was able to make my point without coming off like an ass. Also, if I happened to misunderstand you, please feel free to let me know.
Last edited:
I mean, you previously came in to this thread displaying a total lack of regard for the actual thread topic at hand by being deliberately and disingenuously dismissive. You showed no interest in actually engaging with the discussion and then later you come back in just to ask how you can ignore this thread as if it's so difficult to simply avoid clicking on it. Does its very existence perturb you so? I don't believe anyone here is obligated to treat you with full cordiality.
It's not that i don't care about the topic but i'm certainly not interested in a venom spitting contest, so i opted out of the thread (that was days ago, by the way)
Seeing it bumped very often i simply asked if there was a feature in here to make it not appear in the first place along with the other threads. Seemingly it cannot be done. I'm ok with this, i can just ignore it. Still coudn't hurt to ask.
Seeing it bumped very often i simply asked if there was a feature in here to make it not appear in the first place along with the other threads. Seemingly it cannot be done. I'm ok with this, i can just ignore it. Still coudn't hurt to ask.
That's a fair and totally not dismissive assessment of what's been going on. Thanks, bro.
I hope I didn't derail things too much earlier by trying to argue against the cosmic order.
Anyway, here is another recent, highly relevant research paper, published in June 2016 in the Journal of Communication: Sexy, Strong, and Secondary: A Content Analysis of Female Characters in Video Games across 31 Years.
Abstract: We analyzed in-game content from titles released between 1983 and 2014 (n = 571) featuring playable female characters. Results indicate that sexualization has diminished since an observed height in the 1990s. Traditionally male-oriented genres (e.g. fighting) have more sexualized characters than role-playing games. Games rated Teen or Mature did not differ in sexualization and featured more sexualization than Everyone games. Despite an increase in games featuring playable female characters, games still depict female characters more often in secondary roles and sexualized them more than primary characters. A positive relationship emerged between the sexualization of female characters and their physical capability. Critical success of games was unrelated to sexualization. We discuss these findings in light of social identity and objectification theories.
For those without journal access, here is coverage of the research from PBS: Study tracks 31-year history of female sexualization in video games.
Last edited:
I can understand people accepting a certain level of perversion in design as long as that design is consistent and has purpose, but Kamitani and Kojima are not good examples of this.
What I still don't understand is why we can't agree that such ridiculous design only really has a place in pornography and nowhere else. It actively degrades the media of video games by accepting perversion as part of the media, closeted or not. It's why it's so incredibly difficult for the media to be taken seriously. When even the media creators need caveats as to why the media is relevant, due to issues with sexual objectification, it's time seriously consider whether or not it's appropriate or is just hurting the creator's credibility and the credibility of the media in the long term.
It feels really strange, in 2017, to still have to be talking about this as if it has a place in the media. A creator choosing to insert their perversion to the detriment of the medium does not help the media and it's arguable as to whether it even helps with sales at this point (because let's face it, sales is the justification, every. single. time.).
Are you unaware Raita is well known for drawing porn? Or am I misunderstanding you.
I'm asserting that there's a philosophical difference between an artist who happens to be known for porn and makes some effort to separate that from their mainstream contract work, and an unabashed career pornographer who makes no such effort but will do mainstream contract work if people want to hire him for it for some reason. It's hard to find a prolific Japanese illustrator who hasn't ever dipped their foot in that pond, but it's a different deal with Raita.
Even if everyone knows who you are, like with Masatsugu Saito, using a different handle and identifier from your mainstream work is an effective statement that they're separate enterprises. When you're hiring Saito you're hiring an illustrator who does porn too (and happens to be well known for it). When you hire Raita you're hiring a pornographer.
EDIT: I should clarify that I don't even mean it as a bad thing, it's just a fascinatingly odd decision to me to hire a completely shameless, open porn guy to do your design work and then have your staff artists tone it down afterward. Even if you wanted to sell tapestries and stuff, you don't necessarily need to start from 11 and then have your modelers take it back down to 7 or 8 from there, you could just hire the guy to do the preorder merch at that point.
Last edited:
I know the mod edit touches on this somewhat, but I'm sincerely curious. How do women who prefer realistic, practical designs feel about women who enjoy sexualized designs? Is it frustrating? What does the discussion become then? I ask because my girlfriend has always liked sexualized character designs since she was a teenager. The OP mentions Cindy and Quiet, my girlfriend loves those designs and characters. Some other designs I know she's a fan of are Camilla and Tharja from Fire Emblem, Morrigan Aensland from Darkstalkers, Rayne from BloodeRayne, and Shadow from Eternal Champions.
Personally I understand both viewpoints. I get wanting practical designs and not wanting to be objectified and sexualized at every turn, that makes perfect sense. I also get how some women aren't bothered by those kinds of designs.
Personally I understand both viewpoints. I get wanting practical designs and not wanting to be objectified and sexualized at every turn, that makes perfect sense. I also get how some women aren't bothered by those kinds of designs.
- Status