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OP
OP
-Peabody-

-Peabody-

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,594
What response do you want? Nothing changes what it actually takes to lose weight and trying to change obesity from being a negative attribute isn't helpful.

I guess an inner recognition of other's struggles possibly being more difficult or different from their own, less stealth fat shaming, and heck motivational lines that sound better than that of a weight loss infomercial (if you have to use em like everyone is so eager to).
 
Nov 9, 2017
3,777
What response do you want? Nothing changes what it actually takes to lose weight and trying to change obesity from being a negative attribute isn't helpful.

I don't think anyone thinks that overeating is a positive attribute. Its just that so many people feel that because its easy for them it should be easy for every other person on the planet. Food addiction is a very real thing that can be easily seen due to the crazy % of people suffering from it.

Logically if it were so easy to do, why do stats show so many people fail at it even when their life is literally on the line? I personally don't think its because people like being overweight and having poor health, do you?
 

Buran

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
365
I can't really comment on any of this, as I've never had a weight problem and I have no idea what it's like. I'm 30 and I've always had a BMI of 22-24 throughout my life.

On one hand, there are a lot of people suffering with weight problems and society, family, the media and the healthcare system seem to be pouring on more suffering. This is especially true when it comes to lower income populations, as eating healthy is for more expensive than eating badly. .

Eating less is always cheaper.

And albeit physical activity is desiderable, no workout plan can fix a negligent eating schedule.

Also, since eating can be an addiction and addictions are usually chemically inducted in the brain, that dependence can be fixed.

I have the exact opposite problem: being 1.80 m x 74 Kg bw, I struggle to gain weight, but due my lack of commit to eat more my 5-6 workouts a week only made me fitter and stronger, but barely increase my mass. But I don't blame my body neither search for excuses: is just matter of lack of will.
 

Rokuren

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
934
Here's Lustig's talk. Personally I think he's right on the money. Curious to see what you think of his claims

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM

EDIT: TL;DR his talking points are:
- Sugar and processed food are the fundamental cause of metabolic syndrome (which includes obesity and type II diabetes among others)
- Fructose is a toxin and your liver processes it the same way it processes Ethanol (which is also a toxin)
- We regulate Ethanol consumption but not Sucrose/Fructose consumption
- The food industry is completely fucked
Thanks for the highlights, I'm about 40 mins in while at work; so I'm not sure how much critical thinking I can apply to it.

I also read Alan Aragon's(researcher in the field) response to the topic which I think you should read if you have the time.

http://www.alanaragonblog.com/2010/01/29/the-bitter-truth-about-fructose-alarmism/

A couple of his points include that Lustig misrepresents the Japanese diet, would've been better off using more recent survey data on conssumption
Here's the latest from the USDA Economic Research Service (ERS), which tracked the percent of total daily calories of the range of food groups from 1970-2007. The actual spreadsheet of the following figures can be downloaded here, click on the "Percents" tab at the bottom (note that these figures are updated regularly by the ERS, so the version you download may be different from what's reported here) [1]:



Meats, eggs, and nut kcals decreased 4%.

Dairy kcals decreased 3%.

Percentage of fruit kcals stayed the same.

Percentage of vegetable kcals stayed the same.

Flour and cereal product kcals increased 3%.

Added fat kcals are up 7%,

Added sugars kcals decreased 1%

Total energy intake in 1970 averaged 2172 kcal. By 2007 this hiked up to 2775 kcal, a 603 kcal increase.

Taking a hard look at the data above, it appears that the rise in obesity is due in large part to an increase in caloric intake in general, rather than an increase in added sugars in particular.

Ludwig also doesn't account for the decrease in phsyical activity.

Also that he's misleading on fructose
Fructose is evil, context be damned

So, is fructose really the poison it's painted to be? The answer is not an absolute yes or no; the evilness of fructose depends completely on dosage and context. A recurrent error in Lustig's lecture is his omission of specifying the dosage and context of his claims. A point he hammers throughout his talk is that unlike glucose, fructose does not elicit an insulin (& leptin) response, and thus does not blunt appetite. This is why fructose supposedly leads to overeating and obesity.

Hold on a second…Lustig is forgetting that most fructose in both the commercial and natural domain has an equal amount of glucose attached to it. You'd have to go out of your way to obtain fructose without the accompanying glucose. Sucrose is half fructose and half glucose. High-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) is nearly identical to sucrose in structure and function. Here's the point I'm getting at: contrary to Lustig's contentions, both of these compounds have substantial research showing not just their ability to elicit an insulin response, but also their suppressive effect on appetite [3-6].

But wait, there's more. In studies directly comparing the effect of fructose and glucose preloads on subsequent food intake, one showed no difference [7], while the majority have shown the fructose preload resulting in lesser food intake than the glucose preload [8-10]. A recent review of the literature on fructose's effect on satiety found no compelling case for the idea that fructose is less satiating than glucose, or that HFCS is less satiating than sucrose [11]. So much for Lustig's repeated assertion that fructose and fructose-containing sugars increase subsequent food intake. I suppose it's easier to sensationalize claims based on rodent data.

In the single human study I'm aware of that linked fructose to a greater next-day appetite in a subset of the subjects, 30% of total daily energy intake was in the form of free fructose [12]. This amounts to 135 grams, which is the equivalent of 6-7 nondiet soft drinks. Is it really that groundbreaking to think that polishing off a half-dozen soft drinks per day is not a good idea? Demonizing fructose without mentioning the dose-dependent nature of its effects is intellectually dishonest. Like anything else, fructose consumed in gross chronic excess can lead to problems, while moderate amounts are neutral, and in some cases beneficial [13-15].

It's a good read. I'm liable to take Aragon's side in this as I have read some the studies he's written and I generally prefer getting my information from written articles with citations rather than videos.
 

Zornack

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,134
I wouldn't say stealth fat shaming is a good discussion but whatever.

"why people lack the self control and knowledge to have proper eating habits" is stealth fat shaming? It seems the only discussion you're comfortable with is accepting obesity and telling people there's nothing wrong with it.
 

Masoyama

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,648
Eating less is always cheaper.

And albeit physical activity is desiderable, no workout plan can fix a negligent eating schedule.

Also, since eating can be an addiction and addictions are usually chemically inducted in the brain, that dependence can be fixed.

I have the exact opposite problem: being 1.80 m x 74 Kg bw, I struggle to gain weight, but due my lack of commit to eat more my 5-6 workouts a week only made me fitter and stronger, but barely increase my mass. But I don't blame my body neither search for excuses: is just matter of lack of will.

Eating healthy, getting sleep and exercising keeps you at your healthy weight, gives you energy and focus and motivates you to do anything you want. You might fall on one end or the other, like you, but that is the bare minimum
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,397
There ia a good discussion to be had why people lack the self control and knowledge to have proper eating habits. The solution is not the normalization of obesity.

Agreed but education is only part of the equation. Accessibility, knowing how to cook at home, motivation and self discipline are the others.
 

Tom Penny

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,212
I'm no expert but if you burn more calories then you consume you are likely to lose weight. I'm not sure what the failure rate on eating healthier and exercising is but it's less than people making excuses on why they can't lose weight. I see that constantly.
 

Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,741
This is what nobody wants to talk about:



THIS is the problem. People can lose weight (some easily, some not) but your body fights the effect. If we could solve this, CICO would be the answer for everyone.

People are STILL ignoring this.

Once you have the weight, your body fights to keep it. If you lose weight, your metabolism slows a lot.

I'm not overweight but my wife is, and I've seen her calorie-count and other things and this is what happens. She drops weight, and then (without her starting to eat more) it goes back up. It's an observable effect.

The article spends a lot of time on the social shaming stuff, but really this is the worthwhile point to take away.
 
Dec 2, 2017
20,599
My GP (this was in the UK around 2008 I was definitely a teenager) called me tubby and mr blobby frequently, said I should stop eating so much and then I'd lose weight, that was the extent of his advice. Fortunately for me when we moved country the next year i started to gradually lose weight.
 

Omegasquash

Member
Oct 31, 2017
6,160
I wouldn't say stealth fat shaming is a good discussion but whatever.

To say that normalization of obesity is not the solution is not stealth fat shaming. Obesity leads to a number of health issues, and it wasn't nearly the problem 70 years ago that it was today.

The problem isn't the person. The problem is what they've been fed and what's available to them.
 
OP
OP
-Peabody-

-Peabody-

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,594
"why people lack the self control and knowledge to have proper eating habits" is stealth fat shaming? It seems the only discussion you're comfortable with is accepting obesity and telling people there's nothing wrong with it.


"Eating less works and is easy. Just have a bit of self respect and self control."

Implying obese people lack self-respect because they're fat is stealth fat shaming lmao.
 

Zornack

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,134
People are STILL ignoring this.

Once you have the weight, your body fights to keep it. If you lose weight, your metabolism slows a lot.

I'm not overweight but my wife is, and I've seen her calorie-count and other things and this is what happens. She drops weight, and then (without her starting to eat more) it goes back up. It's an observable effect.

The article spends a lot of time on the social shaming stuff, but really this is the worthwhile point to take away.

It's a lie. It's not biological, it's psychological. The drop is metabolism from dieting is not nearly as sever as the article makes out.
 

Masoyama

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,648
People are STILL ignoring this.

Once you have the weight, your body fights to keep it. If you lose weight, your metabolism slows a lot.

I'm not overweight but my wife is, and I've seen her calorie-count and other things and this is what happens. She drops weight, and then (without her starting to eat more) it goes back up. It's an observable effect.

The article spends a lot of time on the social shaming stuff, but really this is the worthwhile point to take away.

CICO has two parts. Counting calories going in without adjusting calories going out is a a losing strategy.
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,781
People are STILL ignoring this.

Once you have the weight, your body fights to keep it. If you lose weight, your metabolism slows a lot.

I'm not overweight but my wife is, and I've seen her calorie-count and other things and this is what happens. She drops weight, and then (without her starting to eat more) it goes back up. It's an observable effect.

The article spends a lot of time on the social shaming stuff, but really this is the worthwhile point to take away.
I don't want to come off the wrong way here but maybe she is consuming more than you are aware of. If you hit a weight goal you can actually consume a decent amount more per day to maintain your weight. So completing a diet, still maintaining a calorie deficit and then gaining weight is highly irregular.
 

Hasseigaku

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,537
Simple does not mean easy, and people are extremely underestimating outside influences ability to change what you can and cannot do. We are not blank slates upon which people can be written on but we are influenced by the culture around us, and a culture that makes shitty food easy to get and cheap is always going to have an outsized influence on people's weight.

If it was easy for you, that's great. My mom fought like hell to lose 50 pounds but despite continuing to work hard at it couldn't keep a lot of it off. My wife fought like hell to lose 40 pounds over a few months but work got hard, she got injured, she had bad family shit happen, she got depressed and fell back into bad and old habits and gained most of it back. Don't sit here and tell me it happened because she's lazy, it happened because when things get hard, the mountain of bad food that surround us constantly is easy to turn to, especially when you're a comfort eater.

If you were able to flip a switch and do better and keep that switch flipped, that's great. Some people have to hang to that switch for dear life just to keep from slipping.
 

Deleted member 12224

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,113
"Eating less works and is easy. Just have a bit of self respect and self control."

Implying obese people lack self-respect because they're fat is stealth fat shaming lmao.
Using the phrase "fat shaming" and complaining about comments here being "fat shaming" shows that you care less about an obese person's obesity and more about how you perceive an obese person feels when reading various comments about weight gain and weight loss.

Thus, this thread isn't about obesity; rather, it's a not-so-stealth fat acceptance thread.
 

Rokuren

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
934
People are STILL ignoring this.

Once you have the weight, your body fights to keep it. If you lose weight, your metabolism slows a lot.

I'm not overweight but my wife is, and I've seen her calorie-count and other things and this is what happens. She drops weight, and then (without her starting to eat more) it goes back up. It's an observable effect.

The article spends a lot of time on the social shaming stuff, but really this is the worthwhile point to take away.
The effect is generally around 15% reduction of rmr, that can be restored without regaining the weight; look into refeeds. It's not something that continuously increases until you start gaining again
 

Deleted member 2761

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,620
I strongly suspect that more than the quantity or quality of nutrients, this phenomenon is also in part due to the lack of community support. With the article, it seems evident that the extra weight in itself is a stressor, and a lot of these people don't seem to be able to find any sort of emotional care with their healthcare professionals, friends, or family.

Stuff like going on about how it's so easy to eat less and exercise seems tantamount to me telling smokers to just go cold turkey, being incredibly deaf to the struggles people have to go through to overcome their addiction, and more self-aggrandizing than being genuinely interested in helping.
 

John Rabbit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,091
  1. The article mentions the sudden uptick in obesity rates starting about 40 years ago, but then doesn't pursue that angle whatsoever or explain what happened to cause it (ballooning availability of cheap low-fat/high-carb and sugary foods). Completely lazy.
  2. Making a lifestyle change to correct your diet and lose weight is a tremendously difficult problem for many people owing to a variety of factors like socio-economic status, home environment, and even mental trauma.
  3. Broadly, being fat (as in, you're carrying a lot of excess fat, weight itself is not a reliable measure of health) is not healthy for you.
  4. Shaming someone for being fat is destructive and cruel and won't fix problems 2 and 3.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,397
Using the phrase "fat shaming" and complaining about comments here being "fat shaming" shows that you care less about an obese person's obesity and more about how you perceive an obese person feels when reading various comments about weight gain and weight loss.

Thus, this thread isn't about obesity; rather, it's a not-so-stealth fat acceptance thread.

Yep but isn't that the point of the article? At least those were the only points that I gave any credence to, mental/health toll and fat shaming.
 

CrunchyB

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,107
It's a lie. It's not biological, it's psychological. The drop is metabolism from dieting is not nearly as sever as the article makes out.

Well, part of it is just old fashioned physics. It takes more energy to move your fat ass around.

Agreed that this is mostly a psychological issue though.
 

Deleted member 17402

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,125
Yes, what you eat will determine whether you retain satiety for longer periods of time. But ultimately the finish line is reducing calories. It is mentally and physically easier to go to sleep after having consumed 1500 calories of protein, vegetables and fibrous foods throughout the day. Conversely it will be hard as hell to fight the urge to eat more if for the same amount of calories you had rice, pizza, candy, and bread (which is the reality for most people). I empathize because I still have uncontrollable urges and a bad diet despite losing a lot of weight, but ultimately the finish line is to always reduce the amount of calories I have in a day while trying to make the best choices for what to eat consistently. I can either make this goal easier or harder for myself depending on what I eat, that much is true. But the contents of what I ingest are simply a means to an end, where the end is eating fewer calories than what's required to maintain my weight if my goal is to lose it.

It takes a lot of willpower to not pick up a delicious snack or sweet, especially if you're used to it. Even when I get home I have a habit of eating tons of chips - I mean TONS of it - as well as cookies and all that jazz in addition to my dinner because I have terrible control of myself, and the only reason I haven't crept back up in weight is because I manage to behave when I'm not home. At work I eat my prepared lunch and have a yogurt and bar for snacks, which amounts to relatively little in calories, so all the crap I end up binging at home doesn't lead to a surplus in calories because it evens out. I sometimes make my lunches purposely small because I know some days I might completely fail to fight the urge.

My point is that I recognize I have a problem and a lot of people are just like this - they have this uncontrollable urge to eat a lot. But because I do I compensate in other areas of my life. If I know I have a tendency to eat terribly, then I need to drastically reduce how much I eat when I can. I'm not about fat shaming but I am about pointing out the reality. Some people simply don't want to hear that it's difficult but that's the truth. It's difficult to lose weight and keep it off and on an individual basis you need to figure out what the hell works in order to navigate the lifestyle you've grown accustomed to while trying to change it in order to lose weight. Accept the reality for what it is and fight to make the sacrifices where you can.
 
Last edited:

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
CICO is just a way to approach weight loss given all the factors one has to deal with such as a terrible food industry. The food industry needs to takes responsibility but until then, individuals can start by making some hard changes in their life. Instant gratification is such a destructive emotion and weight loss is so damn slow, that is an up hill battle.
This is asking a whole fucking lot out of people.
You're telling people who only have roughly 37min a day to cook to not take into account an industry based on making them consume product that will kill them with people paid a fortune to make that happen?
Uphill battle is putting it mildly, might as well ask people to work hard to get rich.
On top of that the whole country infrastructure is made to absolutely make sure they spend as little time as possible using up calories.
I'm all for challenging people but in this environment it's probably easier to get people to vote Green party than to go against that.
AND on top of that you have an education system that reinforce the food industry cramming shit food into your body, I mean come on.
 

bane833

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
4,530
America, where offending an obese person is the bigger problem than said person eating him/herself into an early grave.

Can't make that shit up.
 

Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
11,284
Calories from what food though?...
Just calories says nothing.

It actually does, because calories is simply a measurement of energy.

But how that food interacts with your body is what matters. Does it make you full? Does it actually make you crave more food?

People who eat junk food all the time are eating foods that are literally designed to

1) Not make you full
2) Make you crave more

So if you have people eating shit food and trying to restrict their own diet, they are going to be in for a world of shit when they are already at their daily limit by mid-day and they are starving.

So yes, CICO is literally one of the core concepts of losing weight and fighting obesity from a person to person basis.

But the actual core issue of what people are consuming is the larger picture that has caused the mess we're in.
 

Deepwater

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,349
Yelling CICO at fat people is not an effective public health solution and y'all are straight up dummies for thinking so
 

Deleted member 2761

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,620
Americca, where offending an obese person is the bigger problem than said person eating him/herself into an earlier grave.

Can't make that shit up.

What's to say that these people aren't eating themselves to an early grave because of these toxic attitudes that drive people to where they are at right now? We've only gotten more hostile as a society towards fatness, and the problem is only increasing, not going away. Why not try kindness?
 

jman2050

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,787
America, where offending an obese person is the bigger problem than said person eating him/herself into an early grave.

Can't make that shit up.

I mean, offending an obese person isn't going to actually solve the problem of that person eating themselves into an early grave, so maybe mind your own business and don't do that?
 

IsThatHP

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,033
Glad to see all the usual suspects are here from the fat people in adverts topic still comfortably regurgitating dull platitudes.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,190
Thanks for the highlights, I'm about 40 mins in while at work; so I'm not sure how much critical thinking I can apply to it.

I also read Alan Aragon's(researcher in the field) response to the topic which I think you should read if you have the time.

http://www.alanaragonblog.com/2010/01/29/the-bitter-truth-about-fructose-alarmism/

A couple of his points include that Lustig misrepresents the Japanese diet, would've been better off using more recent survey data on conssumption


Ludwig also doesn't account for the decrease in phsyical activity.

Also that he's misleading on fructose


It's a good read. I'm liable to take Aragon's side in this as I have read some the studies he's written and I generally prefer getting my information from written articles with citations rather than videos.
Alan Aragon is also accused of sexual assault and abusive behavior.
 

Olaf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,419
If you can afford enough trash food to become obese you can afford to eat healthy too.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,053
I just wanted to say, 37 minutes a day to cook is actually a hell of a long time to cook any basic healthy meal. You don't need more than 20.
 

Ikuu

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,294
Feels like people are always looking for excuses and people to blame rather than be accountable for their choices.
 

Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
11,284
If you can afford enough trash food to become obese you can afford to eat healthy too.

Not inherently, most trash food is cheap and packed with calories, so it's extremely easy to over indulge and not inherently break the bank. This isn't even factoring in peoples life styles or how much time they have to cook healthy options.

It's kinda strange that we have the majority of the world rapidly growing in obesity, yet people just constantly prescribe the issue to individuals and ignore a global trend.
 

Deepwater

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,349
Obesity threads compared to lootbox addiction threads are a stark contrast in whom receives empathy on this site

Feels like people are always looking for excuses and people to blame rather than be accountable for their choices.

Obesity is a public health issue, it's not about individual responsibility