You CAAAAAAAAN... but almost no one does, which is why the others stand out so much.
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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Very true! It just urks me when people say things like that. There are ways that you can make the most perverted/sexualized character into someone endearing, charming, or even psychotic. Trying to say that you can't is just false. Sorry for the small tangent.
Just to make sure we are on the same page. A lot of people here are using sexualised and objectified interchangeably. Many of those people seem to be okay with sexy characters with context.
The blade girl is clearly objectified, which is different from Kaine who might be considered just a sexy character with context. Although Taro, eh.
I don't recall, does the camera act differently around Kaine?
Right? I swear, it never fails to make my eyes roll. Guess what, I ain't American either, and your faux Euro/whatever superiority doesn't impress me.
Been a while. During times I believe it does, but other times it doesn't? Depends on the point of time in the game. Early on it sexualizes her a bit, but after you learn more about her it becomes far less common and nearly non-existant at the end.
The person I had originally quoted said: "honestly, anything lore/story wise doesn't excuse designing a sexualized woman. You can add all the lore and words and deed and still the intention would be the same." Which is where my slight tangent was derived.
Not European either and never once said I was superior. But I also notice we have different cultural sensibilities from other nations. It is what it is. What you are doing is instead is just not accepting that others may feel differently on the matter.
Where do you live, then? Asia?
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It's almost as if a big portion of modern societies hold varying quantities of sexist values and the people who oppose those are the ones who resist what they were taught about women growing up rather than members of "puritan" societies. People love to pretend americans are inherently afraid of sex due to censorship or whatever despite american media including lots of examples of sexism like in comics and Hollywood movies.
News flash, A LOT of people in the world don't give a damn about feminism and being indifferent to stuff like fanservice doesn't make you special, but the norm.
News flash, A LOT of people in the world don't give a damn about feminism and being indifferent to stuff like fanservice doesn't make you special, but the norm.
I am American, and I've read more than enough text on this subject from other countries and cultures to know this isn't an exclusively American issue.
Nor is it an issue that only Americans care about.
Also, there's a huge fucking difference between being against objectification and never wanting women to show any skin.
Nor is it an issue that only Americans care about.
Also, there's a huge fucking difference between being against objectification and never wanting women to show any skin.
You know, that Soul Caliber thread really just shows the hoops people some will go just for their fanservice.
To be fair, there comes a point where even if you are parodying a trope, you do it too effectively it renders the parody meaningless. See Fight Club and the alt-right. For a fanservice example, see Queen's Blade. Note: Do not look up Queen's Blade, it's is boderline Hentai. Queen's Blade's story is a harsh criticism of the fanservice tropes found a panty fighters or pornographic monster fighters. You will never notice this if you read any of the derivative works, seen any of the cards without reading the backstory, or watched the anime. So, then the question becomes, if it conveys its criticism so poorly, does it really deserves the "it's a parody" defense?
To be fair, there comes a point where even if you are parodying a trope, you do it too effectively it renders the parody meaningless. See Fight Club and the alt-right. For a fanservice example, see Queen's Blade. Note: Do not look up Queen's Blade, it's is boderline Hentai. Queen's Blade's story is a harsh criticism of the fanservice tropes found a panty fighters or pornographic monster fighters. You will never notice this if you read any of the derivative works, seen any of the cards without reading the backstory, or watched the anime. So, then the question becomes, if it conveys its criticism so poorly, does it really deserves the "it's a parody" defense?
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I mean, he's right, Kaine's outfit is supposed to be a visual representation of a girl struggling to cope with death, loss, exile and intersexual issues. She's a complex piece that has a lot of nuance from her way of talking to her dress to her fighting style.
TROUBLE IS.........you can only ever find out most of her story via a dlc preorder book that was never officially translated. A lot of her story is never unearthed in the game, which makes it harder to defend.
But yes, Kaine is an example of a sexualized AND objectified character that works due to context, you just have DIG for the context.
2B's exploding skirt...not actually context. Taro actually does a better job with rationalized exploitation in his earlier games where human emotion or the lack there of is a core conceit. With automata, 2B and 9S are great, and their uniforms are explained, but it's all very thin and mostly they're just hot because hot protagonists in a japanese game.
Still though, effort is made, which is more than I can say for 99% of games on the market.
I will have to disagree with you there. While a good portion of her story is told in a clear/concise manner in the DLC Preorder book - much of it was covered in the core game through its various endings and side quests. You learn what she is, why she acts the way she acts, and why she dresses among other things. It just requires you to piece them together, similar to how the story threads work in say Dark Souls.
Diversity according the Soul Caliber thread:
We did it people! These are the two extremes for diversity for women! Clearly there is no way for women to be more diverse! Nope. No way. Nope. None. Notta one. Nu-uh. This is the most extreme version of diversity.
We did it people! These are the two extremes for diversity for women! Clearly there is no way for women to be more diverse! Nope. No way. Nope. None. Notta one. Nu-uh. This is the most extreme version of diversity.
I'm not really here to defend Kaine/Taro, but
isn't most of that either explained or heavily alluded to during the long backstory dump at the start of NG+?
Im not American either. I think the issue here is your assumption that you can dismiss any issue as a peculiarly American one when this discussion contains posters from all over the place, not that wherever you are from is particularly different.
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That is a good question and one I do not have an answer for. I never really considered NieR or Silent Hill 2 to be parodies of the "sexualized/objectified" trope. The only one I could think of as a somewhat parody would be Bayonetta. In general, I believe you can claim to be a parody - but that doesn't mean you can't be a crappy one. This is nothing really new to the movie industry as for every Airplane or Austin Powers - we get an Epic Movie or Meet the Spartans.
Apologies for the mess of writing. Damn near 2 AM here and I am about to pass out.
...it's not that cut and dry. There's so much obfuscation revolving around the things Kaine is dealing with that it makes me wonder if it was removed to dodge an ESRB rating. You are almost left with more questions than answers unless you have a translation of that damn book.
A lot of it is, but
there's a lot of stuff that was said during the game's prerelease about Kaine that isn't surfaced in the game very well, instead seemingly having been removed and placed in the DLC book. The fact that Kaine is intersex gets literally 1 sentence of time in that info dump, but it is an obvious and prevalent point in the book. It's one of the things that annoyed me about Nier's prerelease content, everything is spoiled. If you didn't go dark on their trailers, you knew almost everything from the jump. There's a fair amount of that in Automata pre release footage as well.
IMO it's possible to understand part of Kainé's struggle after reading the prologue to the second playthrough of the game, I did, but I don't know... I used to dig Taro's approach with her, but in retrospect, there are more tasteful ways to convey it. Like okay, make her sexy, but does she really have to go around in just lingerie? I appreciate that (I think) the camera didn't use her as an object and that there was an effort to convey a deeper message, but in the end an oversexualized character with some subverting subtext about her appearance is still an oversexualized character, and there's no "catch" to it, if you choose to ignore her subtext or don't notice it at all she's just like any other JRPG woman.
And all that is not even touching on Taro's "idk I like girls lol" comment about 2B which pretty much retroactively ruined Kainé even further in my eyes.
And all that is not even touching on Taro's "idk I like girls lol" comment about 2B which pretty much retroactively ruined Kainé even further in my eyes.
This is fair. There are other ways of doing it, but I don't hate the way he did it in Nier.
But I also love that game and devoured most of the content surrounding it and the stuff that came after it because it's so wild so...I'm biased.
Can you point to where people they like fanservice were called 'incels' please, that's a self-descriptive term used by a group who often have a bizarre view of women, not one that regularly pops up in these threads. Note that I'm not saying it applies to you or anyone else here either. Looking that one up was a rabbit hole I'm never going down again just to sate my curiosity. Jesus wept.
All the 'she's different, she's not human! She's a robot/sword/dragon!' stuff falls apart when such characters still act like and are still assigned the same cliches as teenage girls in other works. I'm not even sure 'she's literally an object!' is much an improvement on the more common plot device of 'she's special because the last member of an ancient race!'. I do like the whole blade/driver thing, it's a creative take on managing a party of demons/Pokemon etc, but it just feels odd that such a large percentage of them are scantily clad women. I suppose that's what happens when you say to an array of guest artists 'come up with whatever you like!', and illustrates the wider Japanese industry trend nicely- it's not an individual occurance of silly costume as part of a spectrum that's the issue, but when it becomes the default to the point where it's the first thing even creatives reach for.
This is kinda damning with faint praise though :D
Mention of 'boob physics' and 'wine' reminded me of this clip from Resonance of Fate
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Gah, stop bringing up these suppresed memories of these scenes back in my head!
:D I think that's the end of the handful I've been waiting to litter in this thread, like an adventurer without any pockets on their epic chain bikini wandering through a dungeon and leaving a trail of drops behind them
I think a lot of games start with sexualized designs and then work backward to try to justify them. Instead of "let's create a design for a sniper that breathes through her skin," it's "let's come up with an excuse for this sniper to wear a bikini and ripped tights on the battlefield."
I'm pretty sure the "sexy designs are diverse" post was just bait, but I totally fell for it. Yeesh, that thread.
Yeah, I chose to be a bit gentle with the wording. If I were to be completely honest, I would have said these are the best character designs they've ever had in a game, period.
If it's one thing Monolith has never excelled in until now, it's quality in-game character design and character models. This goes all the way back to Takahashi's team at Squaresoft with Xenogears, to his most recent game, Xenoblade Chronicles X. I mean, if we were talking concept art, I would vote Xenogears all the way, 90's~early 2000's anime art is my jam (even some 70's and 80's stuff); but, really, they always have great concept art all around.
In-game character designs though, this game is leaps and bounds over anything they've ever put out, bar none.
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Nope. I just understand that different people and different parts of the world often have different sensibilities. There is overlap, sure, but it's different everywhere.
I would never feel offended if someone feels differently. Everyone is entitled to their own feelings and nothing wrong with polite disagreement.
I love that they've both got the same haircut.
/foolish husband walks blindly into wife and her BFF's post-hairdresser trap :D
In all seriousness if diversity is represented by being white and slim in combat lingerie or white and slim in boob armour with little protection on groin and thighs, I'm not sure what to say. I think the bottom design has a lot of cool elements, I like it, but diversity of body shape, age etc seem like just as big an issue for female representation as those of costume. They often seem to have limbs and arm muscles that look bizarrely elongated and slender to me, is that a fashion art heritage thing?
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Just to solidify the terminology. The word "sexualized" is the phrase "sexually objectified" combined into a single word in almost any discussion about female portrayal, so any time you see the word "sexualized" it explicitly means "sexually objectified" as opposed to simply attractive (sexy).
Edit since my qualifier wasn't clear: No, this is not a dictionary definition. This is a rule of thumb definition for any discussion of female portrayal which uses the term "sexualized".
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Sorry, but sexualize and objectify are two separate terms, with two separate definitions. Something can be sexualized for the purpose of sexual objectification, but sexualize and objectify are two separate things. If you want discourse, that's fine, but let's not start making up what words mean, please.
Edit: adding CannonFodder52 , I just want you to see this too. I don't want you getting confused or anything
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I played and loved Nier 1. There's still no excuse for Kaine, you can do the same thing with a more tasteful dress than something that has windows in the boobs and show her ass, let alone having the need to put her such dress.
So, you may or may not know this, but an early Kaine design involved her being almost 100% clothed.
You can see in the illustration labelled [45] that Tyrann wasn't designed as a part of her physical form yet (or perhaps it was just her lower body? This is pure speculation).
Anyhow, I think Kaine's final design is a powerful one. She's possessed by a shade who has turned her from female to intersex (excuse me if that comes off as offensive in some way, I don't often speak of genders/sexes and no offence is meant) and who also is physically visible in the form of the black scrawl on her left arm and leg. Kaine's clothing of choice is one that aggressively expresses her femininity and human form (note the coverings on her left arm and leg) as much as possible while still being clothing.
I personally don't really have any issues with her costume because the game doesn't really objectify her. She has tons of agency as a character, as well. 2B is also handled super well in these regards. Her outfit is an expression of what the Androids feel a female human would wear as they chase their image of ideal humanity, and frankly I don't think it's out of touch with reality in that regard.
Oh my god another female rare blade that's 90% fine. Praise the design gods, it's just generic instead of fanservice generic.
...why yes, I have become bitter and sarcastic, why you ask?
I'm pretty sure the camera puts focus on Kaine's ass in some cutscenes, and it's practically imposible to avoid 2B pantyshots. But still, about Automata, there is no story reason for all but 9S Yorha's to be sexy robots. Yorhra were created by androids, and androids were created by humans to look the same as human, some were even present when
humans still lived
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So, you may or may not know this, but an early Kaine design involved her being almost 100% clothed.
You can see in the illustration labelled [45] that Tyrann wasn't designed as a part of her physical form yet (or perhaps it was just her lower body? This is pure speculation).
Anyhow, I think Kaine's final design is a powerful one. She's possessed by a shade who has turned her from female to intersex (excuse me if that comes off as offensive in some way, I don't often speak of genders/sexes and no offence is meant) and who also is physically visible in the form of the black scrawl on her left arm and leg. Kaine's clothing of choice is one that aggressively expresses her femininity and human form (note the coverings on her left arm and leg) as much as possible while still being clothing.
I personally don't really have any issues with her costume because the game doesn't really objectify her. She has tons of agency as a character, as well. 2B is also handled super well in these regards. Her outfit is an expression of what the Androids feel a female human would wear as they chase their image of ideal humanity, and frankly I don't think it's out of touch with reality in that regard.
Lmao that's one hell of a picture to pick while claiming she isn't objectified...
They're legit good. Story-wise and characters, I enjoyed the first one more, but Automata gameplay is better.
That picture does bring up the point of Watsonian vs Doylist explanations in such fanservice. The character might have a Watsonian, or in-universe, reason for the design, but it's also clear that the Doylist, or creator's, reason for its existence is at least partially for audience titillation. I do think it is important to always note this when discussing fanservice in games because they always have a Doylist reason for existing.
But I forgot, I need to get on with my apparent evil master plan of destroying all fanservice in games so I have no time to play such a game. Shame too. :P
Another example about this talk of the reasons to get sexualized characters.
In a Nier story from the book, based on the japanese version (so the kid Nier), Nier sells his body to a man for money (to take care of his sister). This of course causes a trauma on him. Well at first Taro said that he wanted him to show problems with walking or sitting (can't remember exactly) but found that it was (obviously) too distasteful, so they ended up with him getting annoyed when someone touch his hair.
With this I'm just saying that there's ways and "ways" to express these issues, and "trashy" outfits not necesary justify it.
At the end, a revealing outfit is a design decision first. IMO Kaine's mannerisms reflects her issues more that her dress. Hell it's probably that for some her dress does more harm than good in showing Kaine's struggles.
Some people now seeing you like
In a Nier story from the book, based on the japanese version (so the kid Nier), Nier sells his body to a man for money (to take care of his sister). This of course causes a trauma on him. Well at first Taro said that he wanted him to show problems with walking or sitting (can't remember exactly) but found that it was (obviously) too distasteful, so they ended up with him getting annoyed when someone touch his hair.
With this I'm just saying that there's ways and "ways" to express these issues, and "trashy" outfits not necesary justify it.
At the end, a revealing outfit is a design decision first. IMO Kaine's mannerisms reflects her issues more that her dress. Hell it's probably that for some her dress does more harm than good in showing Kaine's struggles.
Some people now seeing you like
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The biggest problem I have with Xenoblade 2 is that many characters are literally objectified. They are walking, talking objects. Not only are many of the blades ridiculously sexualised, but their entire purpose is just a tool to be used by the player. Perhaps Xenoblade has some sort of reasoning behind this, and is making some sort of subversive comment on sexualised designs in media...but I doubt it.
It's hard to make a full judgement when I haven't played the game, but everything about it just reeks of titillation for the sake of titillation. I don't understand how anyone can look at those designs and NOT see that there's a problem with them. I'm still going to get the game as I absolutely loved the first one, but it really bothers me that they're going down that track.
It's hard to make a full judgement when I haven't played the game, but everything about it just reeks of titillation for the sake of titillation. I don't understand how anyone can look at those designs and NOT see that there's a problem with them. I'm still going to get the game as I absolutely loved the first one, but it really bothers me that they're going down that track.
But the current YorHa and androids in general are just the newest generation- it's been a long time since they've actually seen humans and I think it's natural that generation over generation if you asked an AI to design outfits you could end up with what you had; the female androids with an outfit that's a strong expression of femininity, and the 9S units (who are intentionally made to be weaker) with strong expression of their interpretation of a young boy (note the high socks and shorts). I don't think it's bizarre that androids who designed androids generationally would start leaning a little beyond what "normal" humans would wear. You can even see in A2's design that earlier units wore shorts, which were iterated to the leotard in 2B's generation. I think it's very consistent with the androids in-universe and their constant pursuit of their warped perception of humanity.
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Apparently you missed the qualifier. The key phrase being "discussion about female portrayal". In almost any discussion about female portrayal, the word "sexualised" is going to combine the words "sexually objectified". That's a rule of thumb and should be assumed. That's why I made the above post. Most women don't have an issue with attractive characters. It's when that attractiveness gets pushed beyond the pale (this thread is full of specific examples) that we have a problem.
I don't really want to turn this into a Nier thread lol but (spoilers from both Nier and 2),
First, androids don't have a lifespan, Pops and Devs or Grimoire Weiss/Noir(they're also androids) comes from current human time, as seen in Nier 1 and the Drama CD.
Yohra androids were created by Zinnia, an android that was well aware of humans, and one of the group that created the lie of humans being alive just to boost android morale in the war. That was also the reason to be of Yohra, both military propaganda and new units to the war.
Androids were literally created to keep human race alive, maintaining the Replicant "farms". So the only ones that have a warped perception of humans are indeed Yohra's and machines (as seen in the game), because both have been denied any info of them. But that is not the case of Androids
Yohra androids were created by Zinnia, an android that was well aware of humans, and one of the group that created the lie of humans being alive just to boost android morale in the war. That was also the reason to be of Yohra, both military propaganda and new units to the war.
Androids were literally created to keep human race alive, maintaining the Replicant "farms". So the only ones that have a warped perception of humans are indeed Yohra's and machines (as seen in the game), because both have been denied any info of them. But that is not the case of Androids
So yeah, IMO there's no story reason on why almost all but one model of Yohra are "sexy" female androids and why they have these clothes. It's all down to design decisions.
Sorry today I want to be a bad Person and laugh.
Uh...ok?
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