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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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Considering the use of Ivy upthread in a discussion about diversity of body shape as well as costume, I think posting a comic with the same image in the background that also suggests that 'real' women are also all white, slim, twenty-somethings with their underwear on show and that magical individual-breast-outlining clingy fabric is a bit of an own goal.
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Sorry today I want to be a bad Person and laugh.
Well, at least you admit to being a troll.
I know this user is just a troll, but I am sort of... fascinated? by the number of men who are convinced that the women who complain about this are just jealous, as if we are bullies picking on their favorite video game character. I actually do feel some video game envy, but it is towards male characters and the sheer number of roles that they get to fill. There are hundreds of fantastic games starring male characters. They're well-represented in every genre. They play so many different types of characters, from monsters to wizened warriors to dashing heroes. A character like Aloy is a big deal for women, but it's the norm for men.
You're totally right that this ain't a NieR thread, haha. Last post for me on the topic;
When I said generation, I meant that YoRHa keeps getting forcibly replaced and iterated on rather than the notion of a lifespan in terms of years. Didn't Zinnia only ever have a hand in the first generation of YoRHa? It's hard to follow a lot of this info. Wish they would just ask Yoko Taro to content lock Automata's universe and release an Ultimania book lmao.
In the first place, though, I still don't see why Zinnia wouldn't have necessarily thought those designs were fine? It's not as though 2B's clothing is particularly outlandish. It's a skirt with a slit up the side, but she's wearing a full leotard/top combo underneath. Like, it's sexy, but if someone wore that combination in real life I wouldn't think it too abnormal?
Sorry today I want to be a bad Person and laugh.
More like today you want to get banned.
Dark part of my mind wanted to do that for some reason, I apologizing for it and take full slap.
On the topic : have it ever was talked in this thread about difference in perspective of sexualization due to culture background?
From what I hear revealing shoulders are more inappropriate than a bit revealed chest in east asia.(I may be wrong on that)
For ex, for me as citizen of Kazakhstan revealed stomach be it abs or just beautiful more inappropriate then revealed legs.
On the topic : have it ever was talked in this thread about difference in perspective of sexualization due to culture background?
From what I hear revealing shoulders are more inappropriate than a bit revealed chest in east asia.(I may be wrong on that)
For ex, for me as citizen of Kazakhstan revealed stomach be it abs or just beautiful more inappropriate then revealed legs.
What great art from Living with Hipstergirl and Gamergirl
The sole comment left on the official page for that comic was, "and that! how's the fat acceptance born."
The sole comment left on the official page for that comic was, "and that! how's the fat acceptance born."
Somehow, the conversation never seems to get to that level of depth.
Perhaps because so many people randomly show up to shout down the conversation.
Oh, I'm 100% with you.
Also think she looks incredibly stupid. A badass robot soldier and she's dressed like a gothic ballerina? Fuck off :D
I appreciate you saying this. I've thought this forever, but I've only played the game for about an hour so I felt like my voice was invalid.
In the end it's entirely possible that Taro had good intentions with both Kainé and 2B, and that his execution for both is still flawed due to part of their design choices being that they had to be attractive too (on top of supposedly delivering a deeper message).
I haven't played Automata yet, but I do believe Kainé's message is legitimate and absolutely differen't from "she breathes through her skin" bullshit... But she's still wearing lingerie and that could have been toned down and still keep the message like Ferrs' example shows (which was super insightful btw, I haven't read anything about the book).
IMO Taro probably does have good intentions and legitimately wants to bring something different to the genre with his portrayals of women (and in some ways, he does), but he still wants to have his cake and eat it and that something he should improve.
I haven't played Automata yet, but I do believe Kainé's message is legitimate and absolutely differen't from "she breathes through her skin" bullshit... But she's still wearing lingerie and that could have been toned down and still keep the message like Ferrs' example shows (which was super insightful btw, I haven't read anything about the book).
IMO Taro probably does have good intentions and legitimately wants to bring something different to the genre with his portrayals of women (and in some ways, he does), but he still wants to have his cake and eat it and that something he should improve.
Maybe this is me being at the height of cynical, but I put "good intentions" in the same nebulous, meaningless box as "thoughts and prayers". It sounds like the kind of thing someone co-opts when they don't have a good track record with a particular category. By what metric were the intentions good? Is it enough to have tried to do a "good" thing when the thing you did demonstrates how poor your conception of good is?
There's an achievement for looking up 2B's skirt 10 times and you also have the ability to remove the skirt whenever you want with the self destruct feature. I'd say Taro's intentions with 2B were far from good.
Are you asking wheter the good intentions are legitimate or how much genuinely good intentions are worth if the execution is poor? I do think at least in Nier's case that the intentions are there but the execution could be better, and I think that's worth more than your average bullshit in-universe excuse for sexy designs, but I definitely don't hold it as the epitome of good handling of these things in games.
But no I don't believe just having good intentions is enough, especially if with Kainé in Nier the intentions can effectively be ignored by most players and just see it as yet another example of sexy female party member in JRPGs.
Oh I agree, I was just making clear that I haven't played the game and that even if there's a deeper meaning in the game itself, shit like that makes it clear he wanted some hot protagonist too.
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Both. I think different people have a different perception of what "good" is, so someone who has good intentions with a disagreeable idea of what good is will inevitably have disagreeable intentions.
Regarding the achievement, I always thought it was them kind of somewhat judging/poking fun at those who'd do it? The trophy is literally called "What Are You Doing?", implying that they anticipated people try and take a peek. Where the player sees that trophy, and maybe shamefully thinks "Damn, I did it 10 times?" 2B also attempts to push the camera away as well:
Fortunately for those that want the Platinum without being perverted, it's easy to get as all trophies are able to be purchased with in-game currency. I felt like if they wanted to make it a whole "boy's club" kind of scenario, they'd be even more blatant, or at least rename the trophy, but meh.
As for the self-destruct, ya I got nothing for that, that didn't need to blow off her skirt. It also happens with 9S (which is connected to a trophy amusingly) and A2, but it's obviously more titillating due to 2B wearing a skirt, so they knew what they were doing there. There's actually an item that makes it so that that the skirt doesn't come off; they should've given it to you from the get-go instead of much later on in the game, since self-destruct is actually useful within the game.
The game does not justify the objectified characters which exist in the game.
Whether it matters or not, I think it does provide more context than many other titles for having sexy characters.
Although, yea Taro is building from the ground up with the mindset that girls must be hot. So, eh.
Whether it matters or not, I think it does provide more context than many other titles for having sexy characters.
Although, yea Taro is building from the ground up with the mindset that girls must be hot. So, eh.
I don't think Taro's intentions were anything other than titillation, there's a trophy associated with looking up 2B's skirt, and they even went to the trouble of making an animation for her discomfort in that.
So many of the themes and social commentary were on point, It's a real shame he had to blemish one of the GOTY with such bullshit.
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Don't go make a brew half way through a post, double beaten.
So many of the themes and social commentary were on point, It's a real shame he had to blemish one of the GOTY with such bullshit.
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Don't go make a brew half way through a post, double beaten.
It sure sucks having your GOTY pick be a japanese game that nails absolutely everything except its handling of women lol, fucking Persona 5 (there's homophobia there too), ugh.
Yea, it's really awkward when you like a game, but you see all these things that make you think "Aww, that didn't need to be in there..."
That's a whole nother topic. But uh, jeez that was real bad too.
Creators can come out and say "She's wearing a battle thong because of a really deep reason; don't take it as fanservice" and it wouldn't really matter. This is a "what you did" conversation first and foremost, not a "what you are" one
Sorry today I want to be a bad Person and laugh.
I love Jago's comics, they're so incredibly bad and totally self unaware!
Ann's plot is really upsetting; they had the setup for a really powerful turnaround and commentary for her character and just.....did fuck all with it.
I DON'T KNOW. :)
But hey, some people only see black and white I guess.
Here's another gem:
WHOMP WHOOOOMP
Ugh I know, really hoped they had listened to the criticism of Yosuke.
Is there a reason? I def don't know enough about Japanese culture...but is it just not as prevalent an issue to talk about? Or (worse) do they just not care?? Is it just the writer that failed or societal attitudes?
Also, not to treat on A Question's terrible post again, but do you LEGITIMATELY believe what's said in this comic is true????
Like what if if told you I wear a size XS and STILL post here about these issues???
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Some devs in Japan (I can't remember names sorry, I recall someone creating DOA content said something to this effect, #notalldevs) seem to view it as a "western problem", that doesn't represent the view of the majority of their audience. So yeah, in some cases they simply do not care/ want their own way.
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Short piece on Team Ninja devs thoughts and game was eventually pulled from localisation. "I don't want to talk about this anymore waa".
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Frankly I'd say a lot of the more ultimately insidious stuff comes from people who could be said to have had "good intentions." Creeping camera work and design has weaseled its way into many a grossly inappropriate situation in both eastern and western cinema and gaming countless times in works that had "good intentions." I've been relatively vocal about the fact that I take a lot more issue with stuff that tries to pass for meaningful and justify its sexualization with in-universe explanations than media that's honest about why it is what it is and targets itself appropriately. That's not to say that I take specific issue with Taro Yoko--as Morrigan pointed out it's literally been stated outright why 2B's design is as it is--but I don't think "good intentions" in general are worth very much as a defense. All manner of creator intentions are contextually important for criticizing a work by several metrics, of course, but they do nothing to mitigate the end result in my mind.
Yoko absolutely tries to do things with the medium that are noteworthy, the dissertations already written on Automata and its philosophical outlook aren't people making stuff up or reading too far into things in the least, and he and the scenarists he works with write fascinating characters (particularly Hana Kikuchi and Sawako Natori--few people ever seem to give the female scenarists behind him credit in the haste to prop Yoko up as a monolithic auteur, not that that's his fault). I genuinely think both Nier and Automata are the closest relatively mainstream targeted games have ever come to asserting themselves as important works of art, but all of that is at the least separate from and arguably even counter to the design work. I wouldn't say that the portrayal of Kaine was particularly successful in any perceived attempts at using sexualization to make a statement, nor is 2B's appearance any more than what's on the tin. The main characters of Nier Automata are hot robots because they wanted to make the robots hot. The games' arguable successes in other arenas, even with regard to writing of female characters and discussions of gender identity and so on, don't mute the criticism some have of those designs in the least in my mind.
Yoko absolutely tries to do things with the medium that are noteworthy, the dissertations already written on Automata and its philosophical outlook aren't people making stuff up or reading too far into things in the least, and he and the scenarists he works with write fascinating characters (particularly Hana Kikuchi and Sawako Natori--few people ever seem to give the female scenarists behind him credit in the haste to prop Yoko up as a monolithic auteur, not that that's his fault). I genuinely think both Nier and Automata are the closest relatively mainstream targeted games have ever come to asserting themselves as important works of art, but all of that is at the least separate from and arguably even counter to the design work. I wouldn't say that the portrayal of Kaine was particularly successful in any perceived attempts at using sexualization to make a statement, nor is 2B's appearance any more than what's on the tin. The main characters of Nier Automata are hot robots because they wanted to make the robots hot. The games' arguable successes in other arenas, even with regard to writing of female characters and discussions of gender identity and so on, don't mute the criticism some have of those designs in the least in my mind.
To be frank, and I'm gonna sound like a MegaTen contrarian hipster here, the second Persona games were genuinely and much more successfully subversive in the specific ways that 5 pretended to be while whiffing every time that it counted, going so far as still being one of the most positive portrayals of homosexuality in JRPGs way too many years later. It's more of a Current Writers problem than anything, though that itself is absolutely grounded in societal issues.
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2B is 100% justified IMO. Nier Automata (and Yoko Taro games in general) have incredibly nuanced themes of sexuality with the focus being both the androids and the machines. You can see it in the This Cannot Continue scene. You can see it in the lost little girl sidequest. You can see it in the constant association of sex and violence like
or
You can arguably see it in Adam and Eve's designs. It's a masterfully conflicting story of giving a sex drive to those with no way of acting on said sex drive, so they find other outlets instead. And of course contradictory internal designs don't stop at just sex, as is the case with Popola and Devola. It's a true "ashamed of words and deeds" scenario just as Kaine is. There's just a lot of layers to it, and I can see the argument that it's not good if it isn't straightforward but I just can't agree with that. Yoko Taro's work in general is fantastic on the sexualization front, or at least it is with the Nier games and Drakengard 3 (don't remember that aspect about Drakengard 1 much beyond a pedophile being a party member).
As for Yoko Taro saying the excuse is he likes sexy girls, I don't believe him. This is a trolling creator who thinks the best way to advertise a shirt is rolling on the floor while cursing out the publisher that actually allows him to make games. It's the same thing as a certain visual novel creator saying "oh yeah, this game has nothing to do with the previous ones" when that's a total lie.
Of course the way Yoko Taro's mind work is pretty alien in general, so I could be wrong here. We're talking about a guy that found amusement in his friend falling off a roof and dying because the dead friend had a boner.
2B choking 9S
the "do you really want to **** 2B" directed at 9S which you would think is "fuck" but is actually "kill".
As for Yoko Taro saying the excuse is he likes sexy girls, I don't believe him. This is a trolling creator who thinks the best way to advertise a shirt is rolling on the floor while cursing out the publisher that actually allows him to make games. It's the same thing as a certain visual novel creator saying "oh yeah, this game has nothing to do with the previous ones" when that's a total lie.
Of course the way Yoko Taro's mind work is pretty alien in general, so I could be wrong here. We're talking about a guy that found amusement in his friend falling off a roof and dying because the dead friend had a boner.
I started playing Nier Automata today and barely saw the character, but her costume looked fine to me. It was meant to be sexy for sure, but I suppose that's not a problem.
To be fair, Persona 5 also doesn't have Hitler so points for that. :P
And yeah, compared to most other Megaten games, Persona 5 comes off as very weak in comparison. Hell, even SMTIV and SMTIV:A had better exploration of themes than Persona 5.
Well of course,
you could say Zinnia did them whoever he wanted it, but I see that more as a reflection of what the artist wanted, not anything story related.
I fail to see what sex has to do with the scene of
2B chocking 9S
2B chokes 9S because that's what she's supposed to do, but also hates to do it because she's tired of killing her friend and lover. The game explore love themes for sure, but sex? only the nebulous **** and the quest about that robot that is more playing as jokes
Also, the words and deeds of Kaine doesn't excuse her dressing, as I said before (and shown that in other aspects Taro took consideration) theres ways and "ways" to do words and deeds. A overly sexualized outfit IMO only diluted that message.
I mean, I'd never be one to deny death of the author here, least of all with Yoko. I think there are plenty of valid reads with regard to the androids' outfits and
the constant attempts of synthetic lifeforms on both sides of the war to imitate (or in some cases deny) a sense of humanity. You could read 2B's outfit as in-line with that, a near parody of women's sexuality marketed as a commodity, observed by synthetics, and replicated in an attempt to be human
Also they already did that specific thing with
The opera house boss and her pursuit of superficial beauty.
Yea I don't really get the whole justification angle. It's pretty blatant, especially when looking at the seldom talked about protagonist, A2, along with him being rather blunt about it. I don't recall ever feeling like the game was really going out of it's way to justify it, it just exists.
I had a friend once tell me that to him 2B was 2017's Bayonetta. The design is problematic, but it's apparently just striking enough where it doesn't draw as much ire as the more egregious examples. (Not that it's hard to top stuff like Quiet I suppose...) I dunno really know about how Bayonetta was received as I wasn't really gaming back then, but it's an interesting analogy I guess...
I ultimately like the design a lot myself, though there's obviously little things here and there that could make it more tasteful (Why she got heels tho), not to mention within the game itself. Regarding her design, I wouldn't say you're weird, it's a common sentiment despite the valid criticisms. As has been said in this thread numerous times, you can like something and still be able to criticize it.
I had a friend once tell me that to him 2B was 2017's Bayonetta. The design is problematic, but it's apparently just striking enough where it doesn't draw as much ire as the more egregious examples. (Not that it's hard to top stuff like Quiet I suppose...) I dunno really know about how Bayonetta was received as I wasn't really gaming back then, but it's an interesting analogy I guess...
I ultimately like the design a lot myself, though there's obviously little things here and there that could make it more tasteful (Why she got heels tho), not to mention within the game itself. Regarding her design, I wouldn't say you're weird, it's a common sentiment despite the valid criticisms. As has been said in this thread numerous times, you can like something and still be able to criticize it.
Nah, 2B wouldn't fit Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines :( Even Malkavians won't approve her.
I wouldn't take 2B's reaction as the game criticizing the player. A lot of games have fanservice scenes where the woman being ogled is clearly uncomfortable with it. Just look at this example from RE6.
I really wish developers would realize how much they are limiting their terrible treatment of female characters. I know i would have bought Nier; Automata if 2B had a better design and the creators treated her with respect.
You don't think the
choking scene had sexual undertones? With all that moaning and the positioning? I know I'm not the only one that saw it that way as I remember finding that interpretation on a TVtropes page. I believe Kira Buckland even said in an interview that she was told to make it sound sexual.
As for the lost girl sidequest, it's another layer that can be taken at face value as a joke when it happens but adds more to the nuance when the full context of the world and Yorha/machine designs are given. It's a Cerebus Retcon.
The designs are linked to the sexual themes. It doesn't need to be outright stated for it to be related. It's just another needing the full context kind of thing
Can't agree there. Kaine's internal struggle on gender identity is intrinsically linked to her view on sexuality. Being as over the top as possible to assert her femininity is a means to push back against Tyrann. That doesn't mean she's correct in doing so, but I actually think that makes her a more fascinating flawed character. Her views are just as toxic and based on objectification as the people this thread is criticizing, but she has no frame of reference beyond that "mainstream" view, and I mean progress was halted in the modern day so it's not like feminism would have progressed at all when survival was the number 1 priority. It's probably the most poignant criticism of toxic masculinity I can think of.
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