I don't really want to turn this into a Nier thread lol but (spoilers from both Nier and 2),First, androids don't have a lifespan, Pops and Devs or Grimoire Weiss/Noir(they're also androids) comes from current human time, as seen in Nier 1 and the Drama CD.
Yohra androids were created by Zinnia, an android that was well aware of humans, and one of the group that created the lie of humans being alive just to boost android morale in the war. That was also the reason to be of Yohra, both military propaganda and new units to the war.
Androids were literally created to keep human race alive, maintaining the Replicant "farms". So the only ones that have a warped perception of humans are indeed Yohra's and machines (as seen in the game), because both have been denied any info of them. But that is not the case of Androids
So yeah, IMO there's no story reason on why almost all but one model of Yohra are "sexy" female androids and why they have these clothes. It's all down to design decisions.
Somehow, the conversation never seems to get to that level of depth.Dark part of my mind wanted to do that for some reason, I apologizing for it and take full slap.
On the topic : have it ever was talked in this thread about difference in perspective of sexualization due to culture background?
From what I hear revealing shoulders are more inappropriate than a bit revealed chest in east asia.(I may be wrong on that)
For ex, for me as citizen of Kazakhstan revealed stomach be it abs or just beautiful more inappropriate then revealed legs.
Oh, I'm 100% with you.I really can't agree with anyone that says Nier Automata justifies 2B's design. She exists purely to titillate the audience.
I appreciate you saying this. I've thought this forever, but I've only played the game for about an hour so I felt like my voice was invalid.I really can't agree with anyone that says Nier Automata justifies 2B's design. She exists purely to titillate the audience.
Boi
There's an achievement for looking up 2B's skirt 10 times and you also have the ability to remove the skirt whenever you want with the self destruct feature. I'd say Taro's intentions with 2B were far from good.In the end it's entirely possible that Taro had good intentions with both Kainé and 2B, and that his execution for both is still flawed due to part of their design choices being that they had to be attractive too (on top of supposedly delivering a deeper message).
I haven't played Automata yet, but I do believe Kainé's message is legitimate and absolutely differen't from "she breathes through her skin" bullshit... But she's still wearing lingerie and that could have been toned down and still keep the message like Ferrs' example shows (which was super insightful btw, I haven't read anything about the book).
IMO Taro probably does have good intentions and legitimately wants to bring something different to the genre with his portrayals of women (and in some ways, he does), but he still wants to have his cake and eat it and that something he should improve.
Are you asking wheter the good intentions are legitimate or how much genuinely good intentions are worth if the execution is poor? I do think at least in Nier's case that the intentions are there but the execution could be better, and I think that's worth more than your average bullshit in-universe excuse for sexy designs, but I definitely don't hold it as the epitome of good handling of these things in games.Maybe this is me being at the height of cynical, but I put "good intentions" in the same nebulous, meaningless box as "thoughts and prayers". It sounds like the kind of thing someone co-opts when they don't have a good track record with a particular category. By what metric were the intentions good? Is it enough to have tried to do a "good" thing when the thing you did demonstrates how poor your conception of good is?
Oh I agree, I was just making clear that I haven't played the game and that even if there's a deeper meaning in the game itself, shit like that makes it clear he wanted some hot protagonist too.There's an achievement for looking up 2B's skirt 10 times and you also have the ability to remove the skirt whenever you want with the self destruct feature. I'd say Taro's intentions with 2B were far from good.
Both. I think different people have a different perception of what "good" is, so someone who has good intentions with a disagreeable idea of what good is will inevitably have disagreeable intentions.Are you asking wether the good intentions are legitimate or how much genuinely good intentions are worth if the execution is poor?
There's an achievement for looking up 2B's skirt 10 times and you also have the ability to remove the skirt whenever you want with the self destruct feature. I'd say Taro's intentions with 2B were far from good.
It sure sucks having your GOTY pick be a japanese game that nails absolutely everything except its handling of women lol, fucking Persona 5 (there's homophobia there too), ugh.I don't think Taro's intentions were anything other than titillation, there's a trophy associated with looking up 2B's skirt, and they even went to the trouble of making an animation for her discomfort in that.
So many of the themes and social commentary were on point, It's a real shame he had to blemish one of the GOTY with such bullshit.
It sure sucks having your GOTY pick be a japanese game that nails absolutely everything except its handling of women lol, fucking Persona 5 (there's homophobia there too), ugh.
It sure sucks having your GOTY pick be a japanese game that nails absolutely everything except its handling of women lol, fucking Persona 5 (there's homophobia there too), ugh.
It sure sucks having your GOTY pick be a japanese game that nails absolutely everything except its handling of women lol, fucking Persona 5 (there's homophobia there too), ugh.
I love Jago's comics, they're so incredibly bad and totally self unaware!
Ugh I know, really hoped they had listened to the criticism of Yosuke.It sure sucks having your GOTY pick be a japanese game that nails absolutely everything except its handling of women lol, fucking Persona 5 (there's homophobia there too), ugh.
Ugh I know, really hoped they had listened to the criticism of Yosuke.
Some devs in Japan (I can't remember names sorry, I recall someone creating DOA content said something to this effect, #notalldevs) seem to view it as a "western problem", that doesn't represent the view of the majority of their audience. So yeah, in some cases they simply do not care/ want their own way.Is there a reason? I def don't know enough about Japanese culture...but is it just not as prevalent an issue to talk about? Or (worse) do they just not care?? Is it just the writer that failed or societal attitudes?
To be frank, and I'm gonna sound like a MegaTen contrarian hipster here, the second Persona games were genuinely and much more successfully subversive in the specific ways that 5 pretended to be while whiffing every time that it counted, going so far as still being one of the most positive portrayals of homosexuality in JRPGs way too many years later. It's more of a Current Writers problem than anything, though that itself is absolutely grounded in societal issues.Is there a reason? I def don't know enough about Japanese culture...but is it just not as prevalent an issue to talk about? Or (worse) do they just not care?? Is it just the writer that failed or societal attitudes?
Frankly I'd say a lot of the more ultimately insidious stuff comes from people who could be said to have had "good intentions." Creeping camera work and design has weaseled its way into many a grossly inappropriate situation in both eastern and western cinema and gaming countless times in works that had "good intentions." I've been relatively vocal about the fact that I take a lot more issue with stuff that tries to pass for meaningful and justify its sexualization with in-universe explanations than media that's honest about why it is what it is and targets itself appropriately. That's not to say that I take specific issue with Taro Yoko--as Morrigan pointed out it's literally been stated outright why 2B's design is as it is--but I don't think "good intentions" in general are worth very much as a defense. All manner of creator intentions are contextually important for criticizing a work by several metrics, of course, but they do nothing to mitigate the end result in my mind.
Yoko absolutely tries to do things with the medium that are noteworthy, the dissertations already written on Automata and its philosophical outlook aren't people making stuff up or reading too far into things in the least, and he and the scenarists he works with write fascinating characters (particularly Hana Kikuchi and Sawako Natori--few people ever seem to give the female scenarists behind him credit in the haste to prop Yoko up as a monolithic auteur, not that that's his fault). I genuinely think both Nier and Automata are the closest relatively mainstream targeted games have ever come to asserting themselves as important works of art, but all of that is at the least separate from and arguably even counter to the design work. I wouldn't say that the portrayal of Kaine was particularly successful in any perceived attempts at using sexualization to make a statement, nor is 2B's appearance any more than what's on the tin. The main characters of Nier Automata are hot robots because they wanted to make the robots hot. The games' arguable successes in other arenas, even with regard to writing of female characters and discussions of gender identity and so on, don't mute the criticism some have of those designs in the least in my mind.
To be frank, and I'm gonna sound like a MegaTen contrarian hipster here, the second Persona games were genuinely and much more successfully subversive in the specific ways that 5 pretended to be while whiffing every time that it counted, going so far as still being one of the most positive portrayals of homosexuality in JRPGs way too many years later. It's more of a Current Writers problem than anything, though that itself is absolutely grounded in societal issues.
Frankly I'd say a lot of the more ultimately insidious stuff comes from people who could be said to have had "good intentions." Creeping camera work and design has weaseled its way into many a grossly inappropriate situation in both eastern and western cinema and gaming countless times in works that had "good intentions." I've been relatively vocal about the fact that I take a lot more issue with stuff that tries to pass for meaningful and justify its sexualization with in-universe explanations than media that's honest about why it is what it is and targets itself appropriately. That's not to say that I take specific issue with Taro Yoko--as Morrigan pointed out it's literally been stated outright why 2B's design is as it is--but I don't think "good intentions" in general are worth very much as a defense. All manner of creator intentions are contextually important for criticizing a work by several metrics, of course, but they do nothing to mitigate the end result in my mind.
In the first place, though, I still don't see why Zinnia wouldn't have necessarily thought those designs were fine? It's not as though 2B's clothing is particularly outlandish. It's a skirt with a slit up the side, but she's wearing a full leotard/top combo underneath. Like, it's sexy, but if someone wore that combination in real life I wouldn't think it too abnormal?.
2B is 100% justified IMO. Nier Automata (and Yoko Taro games in general) have incredibly nuanced themes of sexuality with the focus being both the androids and the machines. You can see it in the This Cannot Continue scene. You can see it in the lost little girl sidequest. You can see it in the constant association of sex and violence likeor2B choking 9SYou can arguably see it in Adam and Eve's designs. It's a masterfully conflicting story of giving a sex drive to those with no way of acting on said sex drive, so they find other outlets instead. And of course contradictory internal designs don't stop at just sex, as is the case with Popola and Devola. It's a true "ashamed of words and deeds" scenario just as Kaine is. There's just a lot of layers to it, and I can see the argument that it's not good if it isn't straightforward but I just can't agree with that. Yoko Taro's work in general is fantastic on the sexualization front, or at least it is with the Nier games and Drakengard 3 (don't remember that aspect about Drakengard 1 much beyond a pedophile being a party member).the "do you really want to **** 2B" directed at 9S which you would think is "fuck" but is actually "kill".
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I mean, I'd never be one to deny death of the author here, least of all with Yoko. I think there are plenty of valid reads with regard to the androids' outfits and2B is 100% justified IMO. Nier Automata (and Yoko Taro games in general) have incredibly nuanced themes of sexuality with the focus being both the androids and the machines. You can see it in the This Cannot Continue scene. You can see it in the lost little girl sidequest. You can see it in the constant association of sex and violence likeor2B choking 9SYou can arguably see it in Adam and Eve's designs. It's a masterfully conflicting story of giving a sex drive to those with no way of acting on said sex drive, so they find other outlets instead. And of course contradictory internal designs don't stop at just sex, as is the case with Popola and Devola. It's a true "ashamed of words and deeds" scenario just as Kaine is. There's just a lot of layers to it, and I can see the argument that it's not good if it isn't straightforward but I just can't agree with that. Yoko Taro's work in general is fantastic on the sexualization front, or at least it is with the Nier games and Drakengard 3 (don't remember that aspect about Drakengard 1 much beyond a pedophile being a party member).the "do you really want to **** 2B" directed at 9S which you would think is "fuck" but is actually "kill".
As for Yoko Taro saying the excuse is he likes sexy girls, I don't believe him. This is a trolling creator who thinks the best way to advertise a shirt is rolling on the floor while cursing out the publisher that actually allows him to make games. It's the same thing as a certain visual novel creator saying "oh yeah, this game has nothing to do with the previous ones" when that's a total lie.
Of course the way Yoko Taro's mind work is pretty alien in general, so I could be wrong here. We're talking about a guy that found amusement in his friend falling off a roof and dying because the dead friend had a boner.
I love Jago's comics, they're so incredibly bad and totally self unaware!
I know what 2B's design is made for, and I acknowledge that entirely, and find the justification (such that it is) absurd, but
Man I also think it looks badass.
I'm weird. ):
Regarding the achievement, I always thought it was them kind of somewhat judging/poking fun at those who'd do it? The trophy is literally called "What Are You Doing?", implying that they anticipated people try and take a peek. Where the player sees that trophy, and maybe shamefully thinks "Damn, I did it 10 times?" 2B also attempts to push the camera away as well:
Fortunately for those that want the Platinum without being perverted, it's easy to get as all trophies are able to be purchased with in-game currency. I felt like if they wanted to make it a whole "boy's club" kind of scenario, they'd be even more blatant, or at least rename the trophy, but meh.
As for the self-destruct, ya I got nothing for that, that didn't need to blow off her skirt. It also happens with 9S (which is connected to a trophy amusingly) and A2, but it's obviously more titillating due to 2B wearing a skirt, so they knew what they were doing there. There's actually an item that makes it so that that the skirt doesn't come off; they should've given it to you from the get-go instead of much later on in the game, since self-destruct is actually useful within the game.
I fail to see what sex has to do with the scene ofthat scene is literally what it is2B chocking 9S.2B chokes 9S because that's what she's supposed to do, but also hates to do it because she's tired of killing her friend and lover. The game explore love themes for sure, but sex? only the nebulous **** and the quest about that robot that is more playing as jokes
Also, nothing about that has anything to do with their designs. 2B (to me, after playing the game and readint the extra stories) does comes from artist decision, plain and simple.
Also, the words and deeds of Kaine doesn't excuse her dressing, as I said before (and shown that in other aspects Taro took consideration) theres ways and "ways" to do words and deeds. A overly sexualized outfit IMO only diluted that message.