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Oct 25, 2017
26,560
AND it's not even done well often enough.

On Gaming Era there's a thread where the OP was expressing their opinion about the lack of diversity in an upcoming sci-fi game. Unsurprisingly, some people got defensive about the issue being raised stating they don't see what the big deal is or gushing about the cast and ignoring the issue entirely. Those that really wanted to argue died on the hill of white victimization and somehow THIS was said in a gaming thread

Disliking Black Panther was even worse than this. You'd get called a racist instantly for not liking the movie. The latest south park episode finally tackled that

Which refers to the season premiere episode where Cartman convinces himself that Token won't let him cheat off him on tests because Cartman said he didn't like Black Panther. So his section of the episode is basically a list of Black Panther criticisms and Cartman not being able to fathom that one, not every single black person saw Black Panther and two that we didn't all get together for black people Black Panther conversations.

Overlooking the fact that Black Panther was used multiple times in that thread as an example of reverse racism and poor diversity, seriously get your shit together gaming Era, how do you as viewer of a show miss the point of that section of the episode THAT much? It wasn't really funny and it was recycled outline from previous seasons, but the main takeaway is, Cartman is a racist and Black Panther makes for semi topical discussion.

And this brought me back to when I really watched South Park in high school. And don't get me wrong, I do like the show and think it's brilliant when they hit their mark, but when they miss, I feel like end up having to pay for it personally.

Sure, they push boundaries. The idea is that it is okay to make fun of everything, nothing is off limits. And I agree with that sentiment, somewhat, but it's on you as a creator to make sure your joke is more funny than it is offensive and you need to actually say something of worth when making that joke, otherwise you're just joking about a shitty thing, which I feel South Park doesn't more often than it does.

Cartman many times doesn't even feel like a satirization of anything, he's just that shitty kid we all knew in school. And him and Randy just serve as an outlet to make shitty unPC jokes without much purpose. And I feel like this show just enabled a bunch of people to say shitty things growing up with the defense of, well South Park says I can make fun of everything and if you don't like it, YOU'RE too sensitive.

I mean, how many jew and token jokes did we all hear growing up that were pretty much air lifted from the show with none of the supposed context. For example, the Michael Richards episode with Stan's dad. Funny on paper and I get that the joke is, now, but past that, it's just a bunch of white people saying the N word with a hard R. And guess what was being quoted in school the next day. So I'm there wondering if anyone got the point of that episode?

I have a similar issue with the Chapelle Show, but I blame that more on the audience that missed to the point than the writing itself since he at least he contextualized each skit before showing it.

And the point of that Black Panther tangent at the start is, the people that watch these shows and develop those kind of attitudes are the shit heels we have to deal with when trying to have conversations about diversity.
 

Ultima_5

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,673
I was going to bring up chapelle's show as another example ,but you clearly hit it.

idk. I still enjoy south park but even as a kid I got shit for being jewish because of this show. not the creators fault if the audience is to stupid to get it.

though they made baseketball so in the end it worked out
 

VaporSnake

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,603
This is the norm for entertainment in general no?

How many people walk out of a movie in complete understanding of the authors intent?
 
OP
OP
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
This is the norm for entertainment in general no?

How many people walk out of a movie in complete understanding of the authors intent?
Sure, but if you're on air for 20+ years and recognize the issue, it is on you after a while.

Not to mention, people missing the point is only half of my criticism. I don't think the satire is even that good which makes it worse.
 
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Necromanti

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,550
I think the underlying message and the intent of the satire can be questionable. I don't know if audiences are taking it at face-value, or are rather just removing the thin facade to what is already there. Semi-recently, the show has felt like a platform for a heavy-handed delivery of libertarian beliefs rather than actual satire, though.
 
Oct 25, 2017
19,105
I see the issues it can cause for an audience too stupid to understand, but would also hate to see SP sanitize their satire because of it. There will always be stupid people that misintepret a message or intent that already adheres to their biases (like that moron who used Cartman disliking BP as support for his racism arguement, seriously??), so I suppose South Park existing won't really change that.

I will say though that their "douche and a turd" gag may have actually caused measurable damage to a section of the voting populous. I've had grown ass men reference this in a "both-sides-are-the-same" arguement in regard to the goddamn 2016 elections.
 

Deleted member 46641

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 12, 2018
3,494
Multiple times when coming out as trans to people I was met with references to that South Park dolphin episode.

Fuck this show.
 

loquaciousJenny

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,457
South parks "satire" of trans issues is so good I want to puke.
Also they took the easy way out on Trump don't give me that "they fucked him in the ass to death" shit
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
Semi-recently, the show has felt like a platform for a heavy-handed delivery of libertarian beliefs rather than actual satire, though.
They've been like this the entire time though, the Starbucks episode was in season 2. They're almost always on point on race stuff though, thankfully (though not trans issues as people above have mentioned)

Cartman many times doesn't even feel like a satirization of anything, he's just that shitty kid we all knew in school. And him and Randy just serve as an outlet to make shitty unPC jokes without much purpose
I do agree with this though, and the shift from him being a dumb, kiddy asshole to a smart, explicitly bigoted asshole is part of what turned me off the show.
 

Nairume

SaGa Sage
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,940
I was going to bring up chapelle's show as another example ,but you clearly hit it.

idk. I still enjoy south park but even as a kid I got shit for being jewish because of this show. not the creators fault if the audience is to stupid to get it.

though they made baseketball so in the end it worked out
It kinda is. They've been around long enough to know what their audience takes away from their messaging and they've done little to compensate for that. That's on them.

As it stands, the funniest thing about South Park is that the show that has always been about there being no sacred cows has long become a big sacred cow itself that people get overly defensive over criticisms.

Show was better when it was just absurd with no messages tbh
It always had messages and focused more on some incredibly shitty messaging a lot earlier than we really give credit.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,775
South parks "satire" of trans issues is so good I want to puke.
Also they took the easy way out on Trump don't give me that "they fucked him in the ass to death" shit
They also fucked themselves over by turning Mr. Garrison into Trump. Honestly, if they just bothered to have Trump in the show and Garrisson as the racist school teacher who keeps defending him would've been better for satire.
 

Nairume

SaGa Sage
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,940
They also fucked themselves over by turning Mr. Garrison into Trump. Honestly, if they just bothered to have Trump in the show and Garrisson as the racist school teacher who keeps defending him would've been better for satire.
If they were actually good at satire, the recent second pass at Catholic molestation scandals would have just been a 1:1 recreation of the episode they already did 16 years ago, only changing at the last moment to address the fact that nothing has changed since then.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
If they were actually good at satire, the recent second pass at Catholic molestation scandals would have just been a 1:1 recreation of the episode they already did 16 years ago, only changing at the last moment to address the fact that nothing has changed since then.
The og episode had that terrible hot take of "when they have no mythology to live their lives by, they just start spewing a bunch of crap out of their mouths" at the end though.
 

Darryl M R

The Spectacular PlayStation-Man
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,721
South Park lost me when they decided to have Cartman dress up as the Coon to merely gaslight. This naughty word has other meanings. Isn't it clever?

I don't see anything satirical about having a character that prances around with racism.
 

Ultima_5

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,673
It kinda is. They've been around long enough to know what their audience takes away from their messaging and they've done little to compensate for that. That's on them.
they probably don't believe that anyone's dumb enough to have a tv show influence their opinions. or just don't want to take responsibility for it.

their political beliefs always seemed to simply be contrarian to whatever's going on (same with Roseanne and Kanye West)

either way, I don't really want to go out of my way to defend them since I don't agree w/ the portion of the audience that uses the show to justify their shit beliefs.
 

Terrell

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,624
Canada
Worse still, I think some folks intentionally ignore the point being made entirely.

For example, the Chipotlaway gag (video for reference): https://vimeo.com/241424126

The actual gag is what Kyle alludes to, which is the behaviour of buying stuff to solve problems caused by our own behaviour instead of changing our behaviour to stop the problem, because we don't want to sacrifice anything.

To most people, though, all the joke says is "HAHA, Chipotle gives people bloody diarrhea!" and everything else is ignored, because the crassness of the joke is apparently the point of it, and anything else just gets in the way of the funny stuff.
 

Ultima_5

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,673
That and the episodes where they dismiss climate change and alcoholism as a disease.
yeah I remember those ones and cringing at them even at the time.

the shows are typically made in like a week which makes it a double edge sword on picking a side on things. wouldn't be surprised if their beliefs have changed just like everyone's does.
 

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
54,164
Put RDJ in Tropic Thunder in this category as well. It's amazing that the blatant satire in a dumb Ben Stiller/Jack Black comedy somehow went over the heads of dumbasses everywhere but here we are.
 

Nairume

SaGa Sage
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,940
I have a similar issue with the Chapelle Show, but I blame that more on the audience that missed to the point than the writing itself since he at least he contextualized each skit before showing it.
Chapelle Show at least gets a partial pass also because he recognized the damage he was doing, tried to back off on it, and then quit when he wasn't able to.
 

HStallion

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
62,262
I'll just say that is not an issue exclusive to South Park. It's Always Sunny has this issue at times as well where a lot of people watch it and don't seem to get that the show is laughing at the gang, not with them.
 

Bakercat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,154
'merica
Good satire flies right over the head of people it's criticizing. It's not funny if I just stare at the screen going, "you're wrong and stupid, here is a list...". Look at stuff like the Colbert show and how many Republicans enjoyed the show, even though it was a satire character that made fun of them. I forget the study, but it suggests that republicans believed the message of the show was much different than Democrats, but they both enjoyed it just as much.

Worse still, I think some folks intentionally ignore the point being made entirely.

For example, the Chipotlaway gag (video for reference): https://vimeo.com/241424126

The actual gag is what Kyle alludes to, which is the behaviour of buying stuff to solve problems caused by our own behaviour instead of changing our behaviour to stop the problem, because we don't want to sacrifice anything.

To most people, though, all the joke says is "HAHA, Chipotle gives people bloody diarrhea!" and everything else is ignored, because the crassness of the joke is apparently the point of it, and anything else just gets in the way of the funny stuff.

Good example. I like how Kyle literally spells it out slowly to the audience and they still don't get the message being made.
 
OP
OP
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
Chapelle Show at least gets a partial pass also because he recognized the damage he was doing, tried to back off on it, and then quit when he wasn't able to.
Yeah, I loved the show, but I caught way more shrapnel from it in school.

Couldn't have a single video game session with friends without hearing "fuck yo couch nigga", just the white ones. No lead in or anything.

Good satire flies right over the head of people it's criticizing. It's not funny if I just stare at the screen going, "you're wrong and stupid, here is a list...". Look at stuff like the Colbert show and how many Republicans enjoyed the show, even though it was a satire character that made fun of them. I forget the study, but it suggests that republicans believed the message of the show was much different than Democrats, but they both enjoyed it just as much.
Oh God, I forgot how many "I'm not Steven Colbert, I don't see color" responses I got whenever I called anyone out for saying racist shit.
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,687
This is the worst example
giphy.gif


So many threads on here and from gaf about teachers sleeping with kids and this gif or just "nice" is spammed all the time, plus everywhere else online. Missing the whole point of the episode.
 

TheFireman

Banned
Dec 22, 2017
3,918
I'd rather watch a really funny show where idiots don't get the message than some shit like John Oliver where the jokes are terrible.

I get that that's not for everyone, but it's what I want out of the show.
 

Ultima_5

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,673
Good satire flies right over the head of people it's criticizing. It's not funny if I just stare at the screen going, "you're wrong and stupid, here is a list...". Look at stuff like the Colbert show and how many Republicans enjoyed the show, even though it was a satire character that made fun of them. I forget the study, but it suggests that republicans believed the message of the show was much different than Democrats, but they both enjoyed it just as much.

I had a republican roommate in college who legitimately believed that. he thought I was full of shit when I explained that it's a parody of the orielly factor and Colbert started on the daily show. he said something about how networks have to divide their programming up 50/50 between republicans and democrats

I'd rather watch a really funny show where idiots don't get the message than some shit like John Oliver where the jokes are terrible.

I get that that's not for everyone, but it's what I want out of the show.

god that joke where he pretends to yell at/scold a static image of something that he does in every episode got me to stop watching the show.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,927
That and the episodes where they dismiss climate change and alcoholism as a disease.
There's also the episode where they attempt to reclaim the word "faggot" yet still keeping it as a derogatory word.
South parks m.o. has always been that if you care about something you're a loser and you should hate life as much as we do

Unless it's one of the libertarian causes Parker and Stone love.
 

Ravelle

Member
Oct 31, 2017
17,805
I liked south park the most when it was mainly just current events pop culture and politics parodies + canadian stuff. A message or two is fine but damn, they really try to hammer it in.
 

Nairume

SaGa Sage
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,940
South parks m.o. has always been that if you care about something you're a loser and you should hate life as much as we do
That and the episodes where they dismiss climate change and alcoholism as a disease.
That's what's so infuriating about their legacy. The manbearpig shit was never funny and inexplicably attacked somebody who was, at worst, maybe being slightly annoying about pushing us to...um...not destroy the world.

It's not even like Al Gore is some sacred cow, since other shows have been more than capable of making fun of him without trying to call him a crazy person for crusading for something that was already looking reasonable in the early 2000s.
 

Deleted member 176

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
37,160
I learned something today. Sure you can put the blame on the audience, but sometimes the show is bad at satire too. Both parties in this case are at fault.

You're welcome.
 
OP
OP
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
I'd rather watch a really funny show where idiots don't get the message than some shit like John Oliver where the jokes are terrible.

I get that that's not for everyone, but it's what I want out of the show.
Again, the thread is about people missing the point of the satire and the satire not always being very good. I couldn't fit both in the title.
 

Nairume

SaGa Sage
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,940
I'd rather watch a really funny show where idiots don't get the message than some shit like John Oliver where the jokes are terrible.

I get that that's not for everyone, but it's what I want out of the show.
I mean

I'm pretty sure terrible but harmless jokes are better than bad jokes that the idiot fanbase "don't get" (but just as often are entirely intended by the writers) and go on to make the world worse for it.
 

SugarNoodles

Member
Nov 3, 2017
8,625
Portland, OR
The question I keep on asking myself lately is "would these shitheels be saying or doing anything differently if the message were delivered differently?"

It applies to all sorts of things, ranging from things Hillary said to Trump in 2016 to sexual assault allegations of men in power, and even messages in South Park episodes.

The conclusion I keep coming to is that it wouldn't make a measurable difference. One of the most successful things conservatives have done in the last several years is gaslight people on the other side of the political spectrum into thinking that there's something they could be doing differently to make conservatives less awful.

There isn't.
 

SturokBGD

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,414
Ontario
I don't think enough people appreciate how important early South Park was to meme culture, and that makes me a sad panda.
 

HStallion

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
62,262
I don't think it's because people are too stupid to get it guys.

Its not the only reason but you'd be surprised how people totally miss core themes and ideas behind a lot of pop culture. Its like the GOP constantly using Springsteen's "Born in the USA" at all their rallies and conventions as a positive.