lets bring the casuals.
Oh you mean like half the planet ?
No, I mean a small subset of males on a specific set of small countries: the asian fappers
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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lets bring the casuals.
Oh you mean like half the planet ?
No, I mean a small subset of males on a specific set of small countries: the asian fappers
I am really disappointed in Nina Williams' design in Tekken 7.
She's always been sexualized but now thy have robbed her of any musculature or bold features that she had.Her body is weak and not muscular her face is more "feminine" and youthful. Not that of a hardened assassin anymore.
The game's female fighters are a complete mess.
She's always been sexualized but now thy have robbed her of any musculature or bold features that she had.Her body is weak and not muscular her face is more "feminine" and youthful. Not that of a hardened assassin anymore.
The game's female fighters are a complete mess.
SNK Heroines is what it is and it's obviously for a specific audience, I think being up front about it's intent and all that makes it fine. In the same way I think DOA Xtreme 3 is fine to exist etc. These games can also be criticized for what they're doing and that's fine too. The current story in SNK Heroines is problematic on another front because it's media that promotes the normalization of rape-culture. In the same sense, Trump's grab her by the pussy comment is problematic. Like, it's not okay to promote that type of stuff and to let people think it's okay to think that stuff, etc. There is alol of literature that goes into detail about this, if you are inclined. Those thoughts aren't locker room talk or whatever, it's just completely unacceptable. I would argue Trump's comment is much much much worse, but SNK Heroines just didn't need to go down that route, so it's a shame that they did.
User Banned (Permanent): Trolling sensitive topic, history of dismissing sexism, user in junior phase.
The thread of banning, just checking in on it.
Wanted to say that i agree with what the op is asking for better more thoughtful design in regards to females and I'm aware of this phenomenon as well and it's not asking a lot.
But i disagree with the op's manifesto. The whole thing is written by someone seemingly at the end of their rope with a "gtfo if you don't get it!" point of view. I believe it says something similar to exactly this in the first post.
So this thread reads to me as a series of like minded people nodding in agreement for 37 pages. People who probe the issue further or look at it another way risk getting banned and people take it as a personal attack of some kind. People get banned before they can even respond or clarify a statement it's dumb as fuck.
Also I couldn't care much about getting banned I'd rather speak my mind, just saying the entire tone of this thread works against fostering open/insightful discussion.
Wanted to say that i agree with what the op is asking for better more thoughtful design in regards to females and I'm aware of this phenomenon as well and it's not asking a lot.
But i disagree with the op's manifesto. The whole thing is written by someone seemingly at the end of their rope with a "gtfo if you don't get it!" point of view. I believe it says something similar to exactly this in the first post.
So this thread reads to me as a series of like minded people nodding in agreement for 37 pages. People who probe the issue further or look at it another way risk getting banned and people take it as a personal attack of some kind. People get banned before they can even respond or clarify a statement it's dumb as fuck.
Also I couldn't care much about getting banned I'd rather speak my mind, just saying the entire tone of this thread works against fostering open/insightful discussion.
No one is stopping you from trying to have an open discussion, but if your defense of the subject amounts to little more than "People I know like this, so that makes it fine" or "screw them dirty essjaydubyas", then don't be surprised when you get hit back. No one has come here yet with an insightful defense that amounts to more than that yet. Are you going to try being the first, or are you just going to complain like the rest of them?
I can't agree with this when the previous six pages have numerous debates and disagreements without anyone getting banned. And did you read the previous person that got banned?
This post?
Do you think there could be any insightful discussion that could come from that? All the OP is saying is don't start your argument with all these shallow - often-one-liner - examinations that automatically dismiss and deflect the criticisms.
I can't really add anything to this discussion myself - at least not right now, as I haven't played anything heavier than mobile match 3 games for a few weeks - but it does remind me to post a link to Interactive Intimacy "A podcast about sexy things in games". Though there's only two episodes, and waiting for a third episode feels like waiting for HL3.
There ain't much. We talked a little bit about Wolf 1 which goes surprisingly indepth on emotional and physical relationships, but upon watching those scenes again, I don't think they're that great. They were probably just refreshing at the time.
Platy killed this already but I just want to reiterate:
SNK heroines is dumb sexist bullshit.
SNK heroines is also a terrible fighting game.
Even if you take it's dumb sexist bullshit and set it aside, you still shouldn't support that game.
"I'm gonna say my peace"
But you didn't say anything...3 paragraphs saying absolutely nothing...
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I'm gonna have to agree with this.
I've been lurking since around page 77 of the old thread. I tend to avoid posting because I either agree with what's being said or don't want to stir the pot, but the above has been boiling in my head for a while now. At this point the thread really does feel like the same people nodding their heads at the same thing for 50+ pages.
I get that this thread partially exist to give people a place to discuss women in media without having to explain feminism 101, to just talk without having to worry about 'those' people constantly jumping in and derailing the conversation. But as someone who also appreciates that (albeit passively), it's tiring and sometimes frustrating to read. Especially when I see people with reasonable opinions that could lead to productive conversations (with or without them), get shouted down or banned because it could be read as mysoginist, transphobic, shitpositing etc.
I'm not even that concerned with convincing people browsing the thread; I'd just like a version of this thread that wasn't so sterile and draining.
Edit: and now this just feels like a joke. Even if he did have a history that implied he was just trolling or trying to derail, what was wrong with the actual post he made in this thread?
Please post some of those opinions if you would. If you think people have been wrongfully banned, then please defend their opinion better than they have.
If this thread is so "sterile and draining" for you, then go in literally any other thread where it's not.
I mean, I'll assume you're not just a sockpuppet account of the above banned.
You know the reason why we can't is that when people are not aggressive against this stuff, the rhetoric of the thread becomes, "this isn't a big deal, I like the titty and that's all that matters, you all should shut up".
Right?
And again, for posterity, if you make your point and actually defend it instead of drive by posting about how you don't think it's a big deal, you'll be fine. People regularly in this thread have argued for and against certain designs all over, those people don't get banned because they can articulate why they like/dislike something. The people getting banned are the people taking the piss.
And also the people who are just bad at explaining their opinions.
My main thing isn't even people getting banned. It's how empty and vapid the thread feels when we just reset to "look how terrible this 'insert functionally identical design #16' is by 'game dev 2 of 10'" and seemingly raw and unsubstantiated takes on japan every like 3rd page.
I don't want to leave the thread for the same reason I assume most of you haven't left the thread: I still want to have (or in my case mostly watch) this conversagion. And as tiring as this thread might be for me sometimes, it's still exponentially better than having to to explain the most basic things to people who've never put any thought into the media they consume and how certain parts of it work to exclude or push other people away.
Do you actually want me to trudge up old arguments and explain why I think there was some merit to some of them? Cause I'm totaly willing to do that (tomorrow, it's past midnight where I am), but that seems like a pretty big waste of time.
Edited because I messed up quotes and missed some posts. I'm on mobile so blegh.
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I kinda feel like if that's the case we could sort of come up with another title and make a community thread, probably with a more inviting title and discussing sexualization in games in general, instead of a thread in the OT no one is going to read through...
Just an idea, could still keep the main topic but there's no real reason to keep a discussion with two OTs as it had the same weight as a news thread, and if a point gets too big we'd make an OT in gaming just for that specific point
This is just a suggestion, but I feel it would be more productive to just build a community around this ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Well, this is from an actual post he made in this thread.
So honestly, honestly, it comes off a wee insincere when the next time he appeared he made one line of "I agree with what the OP is asking for" only to follow it with three paragraphs of "this thread is too ban-happy".
In any case, refer to my reply to him in this page, if you don't mind.
Which surprise me how he isn't arrested?
Saw this screenshot of one of recent fall anime.
There's no problem with this character. She's not even sexualized so I don't think this is a good example since there's nothing wrong with a immortal character that looks young. Even more because in the case of that character, it's a vampire and like in any media, the character is locked on their physical body when they're transformed in vampire (which is why in the original manga there's a scene with an entire family of vampires exemplifying this when the main protagonist begin to talk about her dead family):
In that case it's more sensible that he was banned (I don't go through people's post history).
I'm not saying that there aren't posts where the posters were right to be banned. But there are some posters who get banned before I even fully know what they were trying to say, and a good couple who have to spend a whole page defending themselves because that one post they made looked like it could sort-of-maybe have been mysoginistic if you read it a certain way.
So if you disagree then you're speaking your mind, but if you happen to agree then you're just nodding along?
Tell me, should I nod along to what you've said, or just speak my mind and contrast it?
Cutting ties with Senran Kagura makes no sense when XSEED is a Marvelous subsidiary and Marvelous is the publisher and developer of the series. Much like Atlus USA, they publish, distribute and localize titles of japanese publishers that don't have a western subsidiary but they have their own titles to publish here as well, with Senran Kagura and Story of Seasons being part of it. Beyond that, Senran Kagura is the biggest franchise of Marvelous for some years so it's obvious why they bring it and continues to make the games.
Reasonable opinions. Uh huh. And those "reasonable opinions" then, according to you, get "shouted down" because "they could be read as misogynist/transphobic". Uh huh.
Can you give an example of this supposed "reasonable opinion" that got "shouted down and banned because it could be read as transphobic/misogynist" but TOTALLY isn't transphobic or misogynist? Surely, if it happens all the time, you should have plenty of examples.
I was gonna say this as well.
I actually find this thread refreshing relative to the rest of the internet.
So - a question I'm genuinely interested in - and it's trully a question, not a rethoric question or a criticism disguised as a question. Do you think it is possible to have a sexualised, violent game that goes for cheap fun (with both male and female characters) and it being acceptable? If the answer is "no" - cool. But If the answer is "yes" - what would make it ok? Setting? Tone? What would have to be avoided? Yes, by "cheap fun" I'm talking about a game where female characters are in bikini armors and male characters are muscular he-men wearing armored thongs or something :)
Basically - what I'm asking is this: we all agree that sex sells - like it or not. So is there a way to still have that "sex element" and not be harmful? Or is that impossible in this world of inequality and mistreatment.
Basically - what I'm asking is this: we all agree that sex sells - like it or not. So is there a way to still have that "sex element" and not be harmful? Or is that impossible in this world of inequality and mistreatment.
I think, given the current climate, it would have to play up the male sexiness far more than the female sexiness, and not in a way that straight men are typically comfortable with.
That we've been able to constantly post ridiculous sexualised designs for a whole bloody year justifies the existence of this discussion, no matter how 'tiring' lurkers might find being somehow forced to read it. Otherwise it's like lurking the cringe thread and then posting that embarrassing shit on similar themes keeps gets getting posted with similar comments. It's not like the title here is misleading, it does what it says on the tin. That these designs are a) endemic to sections of the industry and b) heavily templated and c) that makes them boring on top of any sexism etc is part of the point. Besides, I like the community that's sprung up around this discussion.
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Acceptable by whom is probably the real question. A lot of the gamergate crowd love the current sexualized cheap fun games, the more they demean female characters, the better. See the joker that ran in here going all "but why do women not support SNK heroines? Checkmate feminists!"
If "acceptable by me" then... it depends. Underage nudity/underwear service is an obvious "never acceptable", but otherwise, it it was fair (that is, male characters were actually sexualized equally in it) AND the game also had options to not play as sexualized if you didn't want to, I personally wouldn't see much of a problem, but then I'm generally fairly lenient.
For "actually sexualized make characters", I mean stuff like the stuff in Chainsawkittens great post on the last page. (see the bottom of it). Fair's fair, can't have female characters roll around the floor in a bikini becuase "she needs to breathe sunlight" if the male characters don't do this too :P
Interesting. Thanks for the reply.
See - my dilemma is this. Basically, the short version is this: I fully agree that women are treated like shit in games (and everywhere else) and would love to have this fixed (sorry for oversimplifying this serious issue, but I am trying to make my posts shorter). Also (moment of honesty coming up) I always enjoyed the cheap sexualised fantasy of a female warrior (you can imagine what I mean, bikini armors and shit, tons of examples). With that said, don't think I wouldn't gladly burry this fantasy in games in the name of equality and respect - I really would, kill it with fire and all that. Really. Still - I wonder if it's possible to somehow have this type of sexualisation in games, and not be a total jerk.
I'm guessing your answer is "no" Which I'm ok with.
I never really feel this, but we are, after all, different people with different experience. Maybe those people you think were being banned before explaining themselves used familiar rhetoric that many of us already know where it would lead to. Or maybe we're just being prejudiced and unfair? It's hard to actually discuss this without a concrete example.
So, basically - you're saying parity between male and female characters would make it ok?
Correct. The answer is no. All the respect in the world means nothing if you go back on it and disrespect someone.
I honestly feel like there's a place for such things, the main problem is when it's hard to find designs that are not cheap sexualized fantasies. Female designs that follow different design philosophies other than "hawt waifu" are extremely rare in modern fighting games, for example.
BTW, the rest of gaming side is still disproportionately crawling with "I don't see race/gender, ain't I so brave in being so apathetic" types of posters. So this thread is a good refuge in general.
The Bayonetta games are just that and are EXTREMELY good.
Basically in order for sexualization to not be harmful (or at least be less harmful, bayo doesn't get off scott free on this) is:
- Don't remove sexual agency from your cast
- Don't make sexual situations a peril scenario
- Don't make the mistake of making sexual situations simply about juvenile tittilation ("I believe in 2 things, the united states of america and boobs" shut up you fucking hack)
- Don't make your characters begin and end with what they're wearing (This is by far the biggest offender in games, female roles being reduced to a pair of double d's held irrationally firm by thin straps)
The conversation going on in the Streets of Rage 4 thread about Blaze's new outfit is (for the most part...) pretty good as it's a lot of people weighing on tradition vs style vs conservatism.
Like, real talk, you need to make a game first before you even think about your fanservice if you want it to be good. That's the pitfall that most ecchi games have, it's all about sexy design first, gameplay second, the result of which is something that no one really wants to play. Senran Kagura games have gotten progressively worse as time marches on because they've focused more on the dumb fanservice, resulting in a slew of awful games that aren't worth SD cards they're printed on.
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The term "problematic favorite" might sound somewhat tiresome at this point, but it's perhaps the most succinct way to address that sort of question.
It's all about accepting that something you like can still be criticized by yourself and/or others. You don't have to suddenly stop enjoying something, nor do you need to rush to defend its honor or take any criticism of it as a personal attack.
EDIT: Mesoian has made some very good observations above about the specifics of what games should try to avoid in order to limit or eliminate the main causes of trouble, which I think are all quite reasonable guidelines, but it is still possible that someone won't be completely happy with the result because it's rare for everyone to have the same exact standards, tastes or limits.
To illustrate that, Bayonetta (both the game and the character) has a lot of defenders and critics alike.
It's all about accepting that something you like can still be criticized by yourself and/or others. You don't have to suddenly stop enjoying something, nor do you need to rush to defend its honor or take any criticism of it as a personal attack.
EDIT: Mesoian has made some very good observations above about the specifics of what games should try to avoid in order to limit or eliminate the main causes of trouble, which I think are all quite reasonable guidelines, but it is still possible that someone won't be completely happy with the result because it's rare for everyone to have the same exact standards, tastes or limits.
To illustrate that, Bayonetta (both the game and the character) has a lot of defenders and critics alike.
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I think Blaze is a really interesting point on those tradition/style/conservatism axis you noticed. She was one of the first female characters I remember playing as and struck a chord with me. During Metroid I didn't know Samus was female (and the suit pixel art always looked like a weird elongated headpiece to me), and while my brother and I would occassionally play Peach for that sweet floating ability in SMB2, It was Blaze that really had one of us fighting to always play as her because she looked cool and was just as badass as Adam and Axel. We used to love playing scrolling fighters in co-op and after years of playing Double Dragon 2 on the NES, SoR had us both asking for a Megadrive for Christmas that year. I remember my mum asking 'why is she dressed like a stripper?' when we played the sequel, my brother saying 'she's always looked like that, it's just better graphics', and me hissing 'shuut uuuup!' as her eyebrow reached peak parental understanding of her two (at that point) teenage boys!
In terms of her visual design in SOR4, I like that her bulkier jacket combined with Axel tying his checked shirt around his waist gives them distinct silhouettes from the enemies while still being visibly '90s'. I think having the animation of her tits bouncing when the cut scene introduced her made me initially slightly apprehensive of how they were going to treat her over 20 years later considering the state of modern fighting games, but the gameplay itself looks awesome.
In my personal opinion, in the context of an industry that was also having more parity, then yes.
Do note that others disagree (just like I disagree with pretty much any context that has Bayonetta in a positive way). You'll get lots of different opinions on the subject. Mine's just one of many potential ones :)
Same with Blaze. I do see the appeal, but also the trouble. Like these icons here: http://bareknuckle.wikia.com/wiki/File:Blaze_Shop_Awake.png Note the upper left one.
This is just it, there are hundreds of places for gaming discussion, and Era is one of the few of them where this thread wouldn't get trolled to oblivion by the waifu titty brigade. Even then, this thread, that is full of lengthy posts of reasoned criticism, is still apparently 'tiring' to some people that have an account here, and we still get the occasional sock account that's been pathetically sitting there for a year like a landmine with cartoon tits on it, waiting to post some edgelord drive-by before catching a ban and heading off to gloat about their tired 'wit' in whatever shithole they normally reside at.
That this thread doesn't go out of its way to explain feminism 101 and lists the responses to common retorts that think they can dismiss the whole conversation and hundreds of examples with 'men are sexualised too' or 'my SO thinks it's cool' in the OP, so we don't have to be dragged off topic every time while we re-iterate the basics, just seems to annoy some posters. Who, with the most generous interpretation, think such arguments are actually going to lead somewhere when they've been taken apart time and again, and, with the least generous interpretation, just don't like seeing obvious bait posts predicted as such, or an OP that's relatively robust about its position on the subject matter.
Every time I see a post that essentially says 'this discussion isn't going any where!' I think 'yeah, and this industry obsession with sexualised design isn't going anywhere either, so we might as well document and discuss it'.
If anyone thinks they can make a serious thread about sexualisation that leads to interesting discussion and not a wall of red text before being locked, go right ahead, people have been trying for years before this one.
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I don't think it's fair to criticise the off-duty outfit of a young police officer on city wages so low she spends her nights on her second job leading a moonlight street dance class in impromptu flashmobs of 'Walk like an Egyptian' by The Bangles. If she was a vigilante, out cleaning up the filthy city streets through the medium of hand-to-hand combat in what is essentially a short jacket and hotpants, you might have a point :DTo be fair if we want to be pedantic about Blaze original design it should be this one not the Sor2 and onwards
I hope this is welcome here. I'd just like to write a little bit about how my opinions are changing, and how this thread helped me get to that point. If you'd be so kind, hear me out to the end because parts of this may sound bit misogynistic or privileged. I'm working on it, and I promise every word is written in good faith.
When I first read this thread, I tried to go in with an open mind. The somewhat aggressive tone of the OP hurt it's credibility for me at the time, but I tried to look past that and see what was really being said. Even at the time, I could see that it's an issue that seems plainly obvious to the author and they're kind of tired of hashing the same argument out over and over again. I get the desire to want to skip past the foundational arguments to get to where you might start to see progress or new ground for yourself, but if you are trying to reach people like myself, who are genuinely interested in introspection and change (and honestly blinded by habit and privilege), you may want to try to exercise more patience. But I digress.
My original thoughts were somewhere along the lines of "I get these people don't like this kind of thing, and I wish more options were available for them- but where's the harm in cheap fun?" I didn't really want to engage with the idea that sexualized media affects the way people treat real-life women. Honestly it sounded really silly to me. "I like anime boobs, but I always treat actual women with respect." - I thought to myself. I mean, the sexualized images people complain about aren't real people. Why do fictional characters need to be treated with the same respect as real women?
However, it became apparent to me, over time, that seeing this thread constantly on the front page was beginning to make me feel uncomfortable. When I passed over it during my browsing, I'd often choose that moment to leave the site and go read something else. This behavior bothered me. Why did this thread make me uncomfortable?
I've found my answer, and it came from an unlikely source. Terry Crews casually mentioned his struggles with porn addiction during a video on motivation and self-discipline, and it got me to thinking- Is porn really that harmful? I googled it. And the science, oh boy, the science. I had never seen any research that linked video game sexualization to real-life behavior towards women but there is TONS of such research done on porn. And the cold truth of the matter is that it does affect many men in the way they treat women in the real world, up to and including rape and sexual assault. It's horrifying and unsettling and it makes me sick.
So what does this have to do with video games? Well, fucking everything, actually. I guess I'm preaching to the choir at this point in a place like this, but this is a relatively new revelation for me. Visual media, specifically that which provokes a dopamine reaction, works like a double-whammy on the brain. It begins to re-wire neural pathways to seek more pleasure, and more importantly, it normalizes the behavior seen on-screen. In young minds especially, this is a huge societal problem. I'm simplifying the issue here, but it basically programs men to see women as a source of pleasure first, and most media these days put women in a degrading or at least submissive position. It's the same psychological effect provoked by porn.
I'm still uncomfortable with this thought, but I'm coming to realize that I've been poisoning my brain with harmful nonsense since I was a teenager. It may have affected every encounter I've ever had with women on a subconscious level. I'm the asshole here. I might argue that there are many people affected more strongly and negatively by this kind of thing, but their brains are not my responsibility. My brain, however, is.
If you've kept up with me this long, I have a couple more things to say. First of all, thanks. I needed to get that off my chest. Secondly, are there any tips or resources you can recommend for de-programming the kind of harm consuming this media may have done to me? I probably can't change society, but I can change myself.
Thanks for your time.
TL;DR: Privileged idiot begins to see your point.
When I first read this thread, I tried to go in with an open mind. The somewhat aggressive tone of the OP hurt it's credibility for me at the time, but I tried to look past that and see what was really being said. Even at the time, I could see that it's an issue that seems plainly obvious to the author and they're kind of tired of hashing the same argument out over and over again. I get the desire to want to skip past the foundational arguments to get to where you might start to see progress or new ground for yourself, but if you are trying to reach people like myself, who are genuinely interested in introspection and change (and honestly blinded by habit and privilege), you may want to try to exercise more patience. But I digress.
My original thoughts were somewhere along the lines of "I get these people don't like this kind of thing, and I wish more options were available for them- but where's the harm in cheap fun?" I didn't really want to engage with the idea that sexualized media affects the way people treat real-life women. Honestly it sounded really silly to me. "I like anime boobs, but I always treat actual women with respect." - I thought to myself. I mean, the sexualized images people complain about aren't real people. Why do fictional characters need to be treated with the same respect as real women?
However, it became apparent to me, over time, that seeing this thread constantly on the front page was beginning to make me feel uncomfortable. When I passed over it during my browsing, I'd often choose that moment to leave the site and go read something else. This behavior bothered me. Why did this thread make me uncomfortable?
I've found my answer, and it came from an unlikely source. Terry Crews casually mentioned his struggles with porn addiction during a video on motivation and self-discipline, and it got me to thinking- Is porn really that harmful? I googled it. And the science, oh boy, the science. I had never seen any research that linked video game sexualization to real-life behavior towards women but there is TONS of such research done on porn. And the cold truth of the matter is that it does affect many men in the way they treat women in the real world, up to and including rape and sexual assault. It's horrifying and unsettling and it makes me sick.
So what does this have to do with video games? Well, fucking everything, actually. I guess I'm preaching to the choir at this point in a place like this, but this is a relatively new revelation for me. Visual media, specifically that which provokes a dopamine reaction, works like a double-whammy on the brain. It begins to re-wire neural pathways to seek more pleasure, and more importantly, it normalizes the behavior seen on-screen. In young minds especially, this is a huge societal problem. I'm simplifying the issue here, but it basically programs men to see women as a source of pleasure first, and most media these days put women in a degrading or at least submissive position. It's the same psychological effect provoked by porn.
I'm still uncomfortable with this thought, but I'm coming to realize that I've been poisoning my brain with harmful nonsense since I was a teenager. It may have affected every encounter I've ever had with women on a subconscious level. I'm the asshole here. I might argue that there are many people affected more strongly and negatively by this kind of thing, but their brains are not my responsibility. My brain, however, is.
If you've kept up with me this long, I have a couple more things to say. First of all, thanks. I needed to get that off my chest. Secondly, are there any tips or resources you can recommend for de-programming the kind of harm consuming this media may have done to me? I probably can't change society, but I can change myself.
Thanks for your time.
TL;DR: Privileged idiot begins to see your point.
I stand by the opinion that the Nausicaa manga is the best thing Miyazaki has ever done. Think of the film as a rough first act. Read the thousand page epic when you have a chance.
Note, this is a slight offtopic - this thread is not about pornography itself - which (in my opinion) has a place in our society - it's about dignified representation of female characters in games, and the lack of developed, non-sexualised female characters. But since you mentioned porn:
One could argue that any overuse may rewire your brain. I don't really care what Terry Crews thinks of porn addiction. In fact, the more opressive a society, the more things like porn are forbidden. Of course too much porn affects our behavior, but you know what - so does everything else. Watch too many war movies, perhaps you'll be more tolerant towards violence - but that doesn't mean we should make less movies like Full Metal Jacket or Apocalypse Now. This is why these 'studies' annoy me a bit - they basically say that too much porn is bad in a way that makes porn look bad. You know what? Too much water is bad, too. Too much anything is bad.
This may be controversial, but I have a strong need to say it - out of my love for women and respect they deserve: You know what is much, much worse - in terms of causing violence against women - in my opinion than porn? Religion. All of it. Every major religion. Of course, people say "look, it's not the holy books - like the fact that Bible openly justifies rape, for example - it's our INTERPRETATION of it that is wrong. So don't blame religion!" But porn? Yeah, it's not us, it's porn. Studies show it.
This is a very dangerous selective thinking. Porn is easy to criticise - and those forces that keep pushing women back are often conservative and blaming porn (claiming it's out of respect for women), because it can mask the real issue - that our society is built - through religion - to give privilege to men. This is a very complex subject, and can very easily offend someone - so I will stop here. But lets not blame all of pornography for the way women are treated.
Back to the topic - I'm a strong believer that female characters need respect they deserve, that they should be done with dignity and that they are not here to give male players boners. I like sexual characters, but there is a large lack of parity when it comes to sexualised female characters vs real, complex, interesting female characters in games. There is also a lack of parity when it comes to sexualised female characters vs sexualised male characters.
I hope we'll live in a world, one day, where there's true equality, where there is a ton of great female leads in games, where they are treated as developed, interesting characters that go beyond their physical appearance. Things are getting better - with characters like Aloy or even Kassandra - but we have a long way to go. Perhaps then, there will be a place for some sexy "just for looks" characters too, just for the fun of it. But there is a gross disbalance here, and that is the problem. Not sex itself - but a lack of everything else, when it comes to females in games.
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I'm not even religios, but about the religion thing - this is what the Old Testament says about rape: ""But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die. But you shall do nothing to the girl; there is no sin in the girl worthy of death, for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him, so is this case. When he found her in the field, the engaged girl cried out, but there was no one to save her."
(https://erlc.com/resource-library/articles/what-does-the-bible-say-about-sexual-assault)
I am not an expert on the subject and have my own personal baggage to deal with, but I have become quite interested in this topic and its ramifications after reading certain discussions here and elsewhere on ResetEra. Which has led me on my own search for more information. This is partially off-topic, even if tangentially related, so I'll put the bulk of it under spoiler tags.
I think there's little question about the basic rewiring part, which is where the scientific evidence would be strongest. Yet there can be more space for arguing about the specific scope, characteristics and uncertainties of the normalization process since that involves psychological interpretation and analytical extrapolation beyond the purely biological angle. Aside from the role played by additional factors such as individual predispositions, exposure to family/social behavior and other circumstances which can also affect the outcome, it would seem worth pointing out that videogames as a whole still have not reached the same level of realistic simulation and convincing stimulation (or even just photographic representation) as other forms of visual media (including live action movies, TV shows and pornography).
In other words, there's still a considerable layer of abstraction, artificiality and self-awareness of the same in gaming. More than when we are watching a movie, it's clear we are in front of the product of a machine (figuratively or literally). I think that, by and large, games are less effective at teaching us anything than books, movies or personal experiences. That might well make it easier to mentally classify and separate the contents of almost any game as less authentic, credible and influential than what we can learn from more effective stand-ins for our actual physical reality.
It doesn't mean there is no risk of an accumulative rewiring effect on the brain after playing games and seeing one or more female characters portrayed purely as pawns for male gratification or in any other negative manner, but in practice I agree that it may work as more of a secondary reinforcing factor (as many people have already pointed out here and in other discussions) rather than as a main catalyst.
This sort of limitation probably means there may be a higher built-in resistance and a lower degree of eventual imitation as long as the games are not sufficiently lifelike for our brains to fall under their spell, so to speak. That should presumably make this specific process slower, more gradual and far less definitive among game-playing adults than what we can absorb from more powerful sources. Of course, that's only speaking about games in isolation. We would need to see a lot of comparative studies on the issue within a practical context that includes gaming as well as the other variables.
Still, I do wonder about the concerns you've pointed out, like how games may be affecting children in these and other areas, especially after they are exposed to the highest levels of graphical fidelity we are starting to see these days. I also fear what might happen when sufficiently convincing VR gaming technology becomes widely available, since all bets will be off at that stage. Society could get a lot worse due to increased levels of immersion making our brains more susceptible to following bad "lessons" on how female characters should be treated and the expected role of women in general.
In other words, there's still a considerable layer of abstraction, artificiality and self-awareness of the same in gaming. More than when we are watching a movie, it's clear we are in front of the product of a machine (figuratively or literally). I think that, by and large, games are less effective at teaching us anything than books, movies or personal experiences. That might well make it easier to mentally classify and separate the contents of almost any game as less authentic, credible and influential than what we can learn from more effective stand-ins for our actual physical reality.
It doesn't mean there is no risk of an accumulative rewiring effect on the brain after playing games and seeing one or more female characters portrayed purely as pawns for male gratification or in any other negative manner, but in practice I agree that it may work as more of a secondary reinforcing factor (as many people have already pointed out here and in other discussions) rather than as a main catalyst.
This sort of limitation probably means there may be a higher built-in resistance and a lower degree of eventual imitation as long as the games are not sufficiently lifelike for our brains to fall under their spell, so to speak. That should presumably make this specific process slower, more gradual and far less definitive among game-playing adults than what we can absorb from more powerful sources. Of course, that's only speaking about games in isolation. We would need to see a lot of comparative studies on the issue within a practical context that includes gaming as well as the other variables.
Still, I do wonder about the concerns you've pointed out, like how games may be affecting children in these and other areas, especially after they are exposed to the highest levels of graphical fidelity we are starting to see these days. I also fear what might happen when sufficiently convincing VR gaming technology becomes widely available, since all bets will be off at that stage. Society could get a lot worse due to increased levels of immersion making our brains more susceptible to following bad "lessons" on how female characters should be treated and the expected role of women in general.
That's one reason why, in line with what you have written above, I think that being consciously aware of the risks and reading or participating in threads like this one has the potential to be absolutely constructive. It guarantees nothing, but has a chance of starting the process of changing minds, by listening to what women have to say about their concerns and experiences, which can provide a counterpoint to many common types of misconceptions.
Needless to say, it's possible to have been previously led into acknowledging something as a "normal" part of the current world due to repeated exposure (whether from news, games or other media) yet still maintain or develop a negative personal reaction towards its existence or excessive use. Listening to criticism plays a role in this too (whether it is coming from logical reasoning, ethics, ideology, empathy, etc).
There is more than that I think, but it's not even the main point. I believe religion - again, all of them - in general, gives privilege to men and treats women as second-class. And we built our nations and states on the foundations of religion. We still tolerate treating women as less important then men and turn a blind eye because - it's religion, don't touch. This is how I see it.
But it's seriously off-topic. I don't want to make this about something else - I was just responding to the old "porn is the cause of violence against women" thesis. This thread is about how female characters are not given the treatment they deserve in games. And that's a fact. With that said, inequality is rooted deeply in our society and I find it hypocritical that some people (not anyone here) blame games for violence and ignore the real problems of our society. Again, this has nothing to do with the fact that we need much more good, complex female characters in games instead of sex dolls.
I may not have spelled it out very clearly, but my point regarding the section on porn is that any visual media can have the same effect on the brain. It isn't limited to porn, but porn is perhaps the strongest and best researched example of the principle. I explained how it relates to games in my first post.
I think you're using a false equivalence here, particularly in your paragraph about violent movies. There is, to my knowledge, no research that violent movies translate to real-world violence. However, there is credible peer-reviewed research to support that porn does lead to sexual assault, harassment, and rape. If porn, and (possibly) by extension sexualized depictions of women in video games, is causing violence towards women, shouldn't we make less of it? Also, water is not addictive in the way porn can be, and you'll be hard pressed to prove over-consumption of it causes harm to anyone but the person consuming too much water.
I largely agree with you on the point of religion and the position it puts women into. It is a very complex subject, and religion may well be the root cause of why visual media is produced the way that it is. I'm more than willing to believe thoughtfully produced media involving sex (up to and including porn) could be healthy for everyone and a net benefit to society. Statistics can only tell us so much, and what they're telling us is that what we're doing right now is harmful.
I'm not advocating for draconian laws on porn or censorship. I'm not really advocating for anything. I'm just coming to terms with the idea that the media I have been consuming is not good for me or for society.
I'm not trying to mask the real issues or engage in selective thinking. I just really needed to get my thoughts on the subject out, because it's been nagging at me for a while.
Porn is not the cause of the issue this thread was created to address. Video games are not the cause of this issue. They do, however, seem to reinforce notions and behavior that aren't good for society, and particularly for women. I think it is a valid criticism and worth being aware of when choosing what media to consume. If I was making a point at all, that was my point.
Thanks for the reply, I mostly agree :) I would have to read more about those studies to have a better opinion.
This post was beautifully written and informative. Thanks. I don't have much to add, but it's valuable food for thought.
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