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Doctor Who Series 11 |OT|- She’s Here, and It’s About Time
- Thread starter Dwebble
- Start date
Hmm, so, thoughts...
In fairness, the idea that you grow a TARDIS rather than build it was laid out way before the coral piece planting - the Doctor says so in Series 2 (The Impossible Planet, when they think they're stranded and Rose suggests building another), and in Torchwood there's a minor side plot point/background detail that goes nowhere that Jack is trying to grow his own.
They do and they don't. It's a lot like it was with Star Wars prior to the great Disney purge, actually: all the extracurricular stuff is considered canon until the point where it contradicts the main show, basically. Consider the Big Finish/novelized 8th Doctor adventures, for instance: in Night of the Doctor, part of the New Who TV canon, we hear the 8th Doctor name-check a bunch of his most significant companions from those adventures before he regenerates. They are canon.
The BBC also has the current show-runner sign off on things like books and audios - so a good example is around Series 2/3 time, RTD vetoed a book that was going to feature the 10th Doctor alongside Winston Churchill because they considered Churchill the sort of figure the show might want to one day tackle... and three years later, they did just that. Also, as mentioned, the show has adapted some of the best other medium stories for TV - Human Nature, Spare Parts (Rise of the Cybermen), Jubilee (Dalek), etc. Obviously as these stories were adapted they dropped out of the canon, replaced by their TV counterparts, because the TV show is the 'top line' of the show.
And since Cushing was mentioned, a fun fact about that: a scene was cut from Day of the Doctor where in the Black Archive it's mentioned that the Cushing Dr Who and the Daleks movies exist in the TV Who universe and are sci-fi movies taken as fiction that are actually secretly based off real exploits. Actual real-world posters of those films are in the background of the archive in the aired show, even. There's a joke that the Doctor and Cushing were friends, and a joke that Cushing's appearance in Rogue One was actually, er, due to a trip in the TARDIS. This was cut from the TV broadcast, like I say, but reappears in the novelization of Day of the Doctor (alongside other fan-wank scenes like the Tenth Doctor and River sharing a bath) which was written by Moffat himself. Anyway, the point is, even the Cushing stuff is kinda-sorta canon, in its own way.
I'm curious about the Timeless Child... the obvious idea is Susan, of course - it's probably the most significant loose end from the classic era left hanging after Moffat unraveled most of the others for better and for worse, but I'm guessing it'll be something all-new as Chibs tries to keep this regenerated show largely separate from what came before, at least for his first year.
- Jodie is really good, though she also feels - by far - like the least confident new series Doctor in terms of settling into the role. I really like the decisions she's making (it feels like she watched a lot of Tennant and then took her own spin from there), but elements of it just aren't gelling for me. That might be because...
- The show seems a little tonally confused. This week again felt a little Torchwood S1/2-esque, though then there are those comedy beats and classic Doctor Who moments that seem to not quite fit with that. To follow up on the Jodie point, then, compared to Series 1 & 5, it feels like Chibnall has less of a firm idea of what his version of Doctor Who is right now - though to be fair in S5 Moffat largely aped what RTD did and only introduced his own vision (of a very mixed quality) in earnest in 6 and 7.
- Other elements of Chibnall's vision are brilliant, though, and strong. The music, the visual style, the editing - all excellent. The music does a lot to establish a different tone, and it felt significantly more focused this week than last.
- The companions are a little threadbare right now, and that's a direct result of there being three of them, I guess. Some sub-points following up from this:
- Graham is really good. He doesn't have much material, but Bradley Walsh is just a master. He's already incredibly likable.
- Ryan speaks and has mannerisms that are just unlike any companion we've had so far, and I really like that. The Call of Duty sequence was misjudged, but I feel like the show might've benefited from him being the only one teleported away at the end of Episode 1 - then they could've picked up the others later. I feel like this is the primary mistake right now - like if Series 1 had clung to Mickey and Jackie rather than featuring them dotted throughout the series as foils for Rose, or if series 5 had dragged Rory along right from episode 2. It feels like one of these guys deserved room to breathe, which in turn would also free up more time to characterize Jodie's doctor.
- Yasmin is a whole lot of nothing right now, and jarring for me is that she doesn't know Graham and hasn't even really had a conversation with him so far. There's a vague fifth doctor vibe, but then... not, because it feels like a slightly splintered group.
- Love the TARDIS central control panel area. Not much of a fan of the rest of it, especially the very dull lighting which is somehow reminiscent of chunks of the Eccleston/Tennant years when certain directors would just light it in a really flat, over-done way (others would go deep on the atmosphere and it'd look great, mind).
- Despite the show clearly looking more expensive/better on every front, sometimes I'm not always feeling that in the art. Shooting on location in impressive places doesn't always carry you as far as good art (the old Planet of the Dead vs Waters of Mars comparison, ey.)
In fairness, the idea that you grow a TARDIS rather than build it was laid out way before the coral piece planting - the Doctor says so in Series 2 (The Impossible Planet, when they think they're stranded and Rose suggests building another), and in Torchwood there's a minor side plot point/background detail that goes nowhere that Jack is trying to grow his own.
They do and they don't. It's a lot like it was with Star Wars prior to the great Disney purge, actually: all the extracurricular stuff is considered canon until the point where it contradicts the main show, basically. Consider the Big Finish/novelized 8th Doctor adventures, for instance: in Night of the Doctor, part of the New Who TV canon, we hear the 8th Doctor name-check a bunch of his most significant companions from those adventures before he regenerates. They are canon.
The BBC also has the current show-runner sign off on things like books and audios - so a good example is around Series 2/3 time, RTD vetoed a book that was going to feature the 10th Doctor alongside Winston Churchill because they considered Churchill the sort of figure the show might want to one day tackle... and three years later, they did just that. Also, as mentioned, the show has adapted some of the best other medium stories for TV - Human Nature, Spare Parts (Rise of the Cybermen), Jubilee (Dalek), etc. Obviously as these stories were adapted they dropped out of the canon, replaced by their TV counterparts, because the TV show is the 'top line' of the show.
And since Cushing was mentioned, a fun fact about that: a scene was cut from Day of the Doctor where in the Black Archive it's mentioned that the Cushing Dr Who and the Daleks movies exist in the TV Who universe and are sci-fi movies taken as fiction that are actually secretly based off real exploits. Actual real-world posters of those films are in the background of the archive in the aired show, even. There's a joke that the Doctor and Cushing were friends, and a joke that Cushing's appearance in Rogue One was actually, er, due to a trip in the TARDIS. This was cut from the TV broadcast, like I say, but reappears in the novelization of Day of the Doctor (alongside other fan-wank scenes like the Tenth Doctor and River sharing a bath) which was written by Moffat himself. Anyway, the point is, even the Cushing stuff is kinda-sorta canon, in its own way.
I'm curious about the Timeless Child... the obvious idea is Susan, of course - it's probably the most significant loose end from the classic era left hanging after Moffat unraveled most of the others for better and for worse, but I'm guessing it'll be something all-new as Chibs tries to keep this regenerated show largely separate from what came before, at least for his first year.
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The others all have Yorkshire accents, but Graham has an estuary (London) accent which I suspect is Bradley Walsh's natural accent or close to it. I think it's the same accent he used in Law and Order UK.
It's fascinating that the interior of the TARDIS is the exact opposite of our colorful, happy Doctor; drab, lifeless and lacking in color.
Must be that plus a combination of his inflection/tone that make it close. I don't generally think all Londoners sound like Mike.
Yeah it was kind of unbelievable when she said "I love it".
I lived in London for a few decades and never found anyone with that version of estuary. The intonation is probably what makes both Mike from the Young Ones and Graham sound alike. So it's essentially a "stage" accent.
Another guy with a similar accent on British television is Gerry Standing (played by Dennis Waterman) in New Tricks.
I like the production art (below) much better than the final product. Looks amazing. Brighter, shinier, cleaner and with a real classy console. Seems like a much better match to me. Bright amber instead of dim orange. The light coat and rainbow shirt could be at home here.
The final looks neglected by comparison. Dark and dirty, perfect for brooding and plotting.
Even ignoring physical design differences and just focusing on lighting for visual clarity, I think it's a big step down. Who turned out the lights?
Hopefully in the next episode the Doctor will find the switch. I think with proper lighting this set can look a lot better.
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The more I think about it, the more I'm concerned about Chibnall. Moffat had his weaknesses, but he was without doubt one of the best writers the show ever had. His dialogue was sharp, witty, at times full of pathos and it literally guided the actor in how to attack it.
By contrast, Chibnall's dialogue is laboured, slow and ponderous. He didn't have a brilliant track record coming in, but he literally took two episodes to do what Moffat did in one with Smith.
Lot of people (adults and children) I've spoken to (I work at a school) found these episodes quite boring. Hope things pick up dramatically though next week looks like a slow historical.
By contrast, Chibnall's dialogue is laboured, slow and ponderous. He didn't have a brilliant track record coming in, but he literally took two episodes to do what Moffat did in one with Smith.
Lot of people (adults and children) I've spoken to (I work at a school) found these episodes quite boring. Hope things pick up dramatically though next week looks like a slow historical.
I like the production art (below) much better than the final product. Looks amazing. Brighter, shinier, cleaner and with a real classy console. Seems like a much better match to me.
The final looks neglected by comparison. Dark and dirty.
Ignoring design differences and just focusing on lighting for visual clarity, I think it's a big step down. Who turned out the lights?
The production art does look better but it's also very busy. Which makes me think they've turned down the lights to avoid everything contrasting against each other.
I also think the major difference is that clearly the production art is in an idealised huge area, whereas the final product is limited by the realities of studio space. So everything has been drawn inwards, making the overarching crystals that much more overbearing.
Comparing those pictures of the other TARDISes, it's very weird to me that you would design a new one where there are elements that are going to actively block long shots of your characters around the console. Even the coral bits in the 9/10 TARDIS go outwards and away from the centre (and are fairly thin anyway).
I'm not convinced the Tardis interior was fully illuminated on Sunday. Not least because the official Twitter has just posted a pic of the console with loads of previously unseen illumination on the floor.
Either the floor is super reflecting or there is something really weird that in the episode and the console pic the floor looks way darker than here
I take it the implication here is that whatever succes the show has had will quickly vanish due to Chibnall's drab writing? If so then I've got a bridge to sell to you.
Whatever the man's faults as a writer(and there's quite a few), he's a tremendously canny TV producer. Something that people will underestimate the importance of.
I've seen people complain about Broadchurch post series 1, yet that show never faltered in terms of ratings. It would not surprise me to see the same happen here, despite people's own anecdotal evidence. For instance: despite complaints of 'casual' viewers being bored and whatnot, Whittaker's second ep had a smaller drop in the overnights than both Smith and Capaldi. So far the audience is staying around.
I do think the background is too busy as well, but the overall impression is still way better.
Regardless, all of these are problems that should have been solved in the design phase and not things they should be struggling with now during production. Assuming for the sake of conversation that they were all true...
1. If the background wall is too busy, don't just turn off the lights, design a wall that is less busy.
2. If a concept doesn't match the studio space, don't just shrink and squeeze it in. Scale is important, you can't just shrink stuff and expect it to feel the same, the concept needs to be deliberately redesigned with the space in mind.
3. If elements block the camera, have fewer of them and move them farther back so that they're more widely spaced. There are easy ways to fix this.
Cool, then I hope they find the light switch next week.
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I was already worried he wouldn't be suitable to be showrunner before, he wrote the worst episodes of Series 5 (The Hungry Earth/Cold Blood) and Matt Smith's worst episode (Dinosaurs on a Spaceship), and certainly no great episodes. Now he's proving himself to be unsuitable IMO.
As far as I'm concerned Steven Moffat was the greatest thing that's happened to New Who at least for writing and direction. Moffat's stories certainly weren't always perfect, particularly in Series 6 with great set ups and resolutions that could feel underwhelming, but when his episodes were great, they were the best. The Empty Child, The Doctor Dances, The Girl in the Fireplace, Blink, Silence in the Library, and Forest of the Dead all before he became showrunner.
13's reminds me of a crab.
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I'm willing to give Chibnall a chance. I think showrunning and writing individual episodes are two different things. Moffat was obviously amazing at writing individual eps but that didn't stop both Doctor Who and Sherlock falling apart and became messy under his watch.
Bit disappointed to see so many negative reactions. The tone and pacing was refreshing to me in this episode and kind of reminded me of a solid Big Finish audio. I think I had my fill of hypermanic goofiness in the RTD and Moffat eras and welcome the shift away from timey wimey comedy.
Only downside for me is the console room looks crap (well, everything except the biscuit dispenser).
Also, yay Venusian akido.
Only downside for me is the console room looks crap (well, everything except the biscuit dispenser).
Also, yay Venusian akido.
Haven't read others thoughts but I just got caught up and loved it to bits. A range of emotions felt during that watch and I loved each of these characters. Such a strong start. Jodie is so freaking good, too.
Most of this isn't actually correct. The BBC doesn't maintain any actual canon for Doctor Who. It's nothing like the old Star Wars days where there were specific levels of canon with proclamations about what didn't count, or like Marvel or DC stuff where people will officially declare things "non-canon". As far as the BBC is concerned, there's stuff that's officially licensed, and stuff that isn't. RTD even mentioned how there's no real concern for a Doctor Who canon in the past.
They have as you mention, brought certain things in from the spinoffs or made references in the past, and will probably continue to do so. Kate Stewart, originally created for Downtime, is probably the most notable example of this.
But it's absolutely inaccurate that any of the adapted stories are now "out of canon" due to the TV show. For starters, Rise of the Cybermen and Dalek have very little to do with Spare Parts and Jubilee aside from the most basic concept (origin story for the Cybermen/lone Dalek in captivity that proves to be a great threat). Hell, Rise of the Cybermen is explicitly in a different universe and an origin story for a whole new kind of Cybermen, so it pretty much goes out of its way to avoid contradicting Spare Parts in any way, and Jubilee was part of a timeline that was averted at the end of the story, and the setting was completely different from Dalek. The two version of Human Nature are more similar, of course, although as Ahistory argues, there's really no reason they can't both "happen" to the Doctor. They're set in different years, different locations, feature different villains, have different reasons for why the Doctor chose to become human, and have almost entirely different casts aside from a character named Joan Redfern (who has different histories in each version). While it stretches credibility to believe that the Doctor can wind up in two situations that are so similar, you could always rationalize it the TARDIS subconsciously honing in on a school with a familiar setting for the Doctor if you wanted to. Or you could just assume that the first version was erased by the Time War for some reason, so the universe is setting things right by putting the Doctor back in a similar spot.
The TV series alone gives three different stories for the destruction of Atlantis, but no one seriously argues that The Time Monster means that The Underwater Menace and The Daemons are non-canon. Keeping some sort of strict canon for Doctor Who is pretty much impossible, so everyone involved has basically made the smart decision of not concerning themselves and focusing on making good stories and not worrying too much about the smaller details.
The BBC and the showrunners do have to approve everything that happens in the books, audios and comics, but they're mostly concerned with synergy rather than everything lining up completely (and the BBC also want to make sure that the content is acceptable to them).
If you say so. I love those episodes, and the Silurian two-parter is one of my favourites from the revival. Neve Mcintosh went on to play a much-loved recurring character, Madam Vastra, using the same or similar facial prosthetics.
Then again, this isn't the first time I've seen Doctor Who fans conflating "episode I didn't enjoy" with "inadequacy of the writer."
That's good you can enjoy them. And obviously that's just my opinion but I think it's also a pretty common one that those were some of the weakest episodes of Series 5.
To say something positive on the other hand I actually enjoyed Power of Three. Dinosaurs on a Spaceship was just atrocious and it's weird because it's on totally the other side of the Who spectrum from the new more (overly IMO) grounded episodes.
Just got done watching the episode. I actually really enjoyed it though my expectations were quite low after reading some other people's thoughts here. It wasn't fantastic or anything but enjoyable. Really looking forward to next week's story!
I actually enjoyed the second episode. I appreciate its focus on connecting with the characters. Feels refreshing. Now to see how the show holds up under the other writers!
Okay, I liked the second episode a bit more, but it is still just missing something. It's not Whittaker, though. She's great. I might have to re-think my top five list if she keeps it up. (Still probably going to start with 10, 5, though.)
I'm glad you brought this up. This bothers me a touch, too. I can go with a character doing this when it's very specific (like Batman and guns), but killing is killing. (This is the smallest of quibbles, but in Zygon Inversion, 12 specifically mentioned burning as one of the horrors of war. I love that speech though, so it's always in the back of my mind.)
If they are trying to avoid having too much in the way of backstory to explain, they could surprise us with The Rani. Another Time Lord with a TARDIS could be interesting, all things considered. So I like her and the Monk.
Re: canon, I believe there was a comic around the time of the Tenth Doctor that tried to handle the end of the Time War and was rendered completely null by Day of the Doctor. As I mentioned on Sunday, dialogue in the latest episode completely contradicts the fundamental storyline of a short story Big Finish has planned for release. So as much as, yeah, it's a very flexible canon, there are definitely instances where licensed media gets hard strikeouts.
I was wondering about one of Susan's parents, too, but the "...and forgotten" part is throwing me. It also makes me wonder if it will just be someone new.
I don't Chibnall knocked it out of the park with either of these first two episodes like Moffat did with The Eleventh Hour (I don't even think Moffat was able to replicate that success with Deep Breath). I have my doubts we'll ever see any amazing episodes from him like we occasionally did with Moffat and hope another writer can deliver some of those.
After two episodes I have to echo some other and say Jodie maybe feels a bit too much like Tennant and I'm hoping the writers mak her Doctor becomes a bit more unique.
Graham is the best companion and I'm hoping we see more development with the other two.
Personally for me that's what made the show good. Without it it's just a bit empty to me
Even in old Star Wars, though, there were levels of bullshit, but the broad rule was "If it doesn't contradict the films, consider it gospel until it does, which is exactly how all Who canon is operated. Regarding new TV adaptations 'replacing' their audio/novel counterparts, though - I guess it depends. You're right to suggest that Jubilee and Spare Parts aren't really bumped out, for instance, but Cornell has said in interviews he almost turned down RTD's Human Nature pitch because he didn't want to usurp his original story, and even says in the Confidential for one of those episodes that he's sad to make that story partially irrelevant but also happy because he thinks the TV version is better.
But you're also right, with Doctor Who's time paradoxes obviously you can always write anything away. RE the Atlantis point - you're right there too, of course, but the fact is the modern show cares more about continuity in things like that than the classic show did. The classic show did not care at all. The modern show won't go back to Pompeii again or, I dunno, the 2012 Olympics again, methinks, or at least not in any way that could seriously overlap the original stories.
Late to comment, but I liked this episode a lot. I'm not sure how well it'll hold up to multiple viewings, and admittedly the stunning location work did a lot of the heavy lifting, but I found it pretty captivating. Nice guest characters, some good TARDIS team banter (mainly the Doctor and Graham, to be fair) and a variety of interesting goings on.
Dig the new titles a lot, and I seem to be in the minority who love the new TARDIS interior. It actually reminded me just now that this isn't the first time I'd seen a TARDIS console with a crystalline time rotor before:
http:///VMWc.jpg
(An ultimately unused concept from the early pre-production days of the 1996 TV Movie).
Dig the new titles a lot, and I seem to be in the minority who love the new TARDIS interior. It actually reminded me just now that this isn't the first time I'd seen a TARDIS console with a crystalline time rotor before:
http:///VMWc.jpg
(An ultimately unused concept from the early pre-production days of the 1996 TV Movie).
Its heen ages since I last did a Tennant rewatch, so. Can skmebody explain how they all see her as a rehash of his Doctor?
I keep running into astonishing opinions like this here. It's dinosaurs. On a spaceship! And it has Rory's dad and everything. And David Bradley as an evil entrepreneur, and really silly robots. And a huge beach that's an engine room. I can't even think of any part of that episode that isn't perfect.
Then again there are even people who think Robot of Sherwood is bad, and that one has evil Ben Miller and a spoon fight and mediaeval killer robots and Clara being brilliant, and Capaldi's eyebrows. And a tower that's really a spaceship! And Robin Hood! I laughed so much I nearly died from lack of breath.
Are comic stories somehow regarded as not really Doctor Who material, or something?
Like most of that series the pacing of that episode is a mess. It felt like it was written to be twice as long and they had to cut a massive chunk of it out for time. I have no idea what Moffat was trying to do with that series.
Everything you describe is great but the episode itself was much worse than the sum of it's parts and it's a real shame.
I think it depends a lot on which era of the show you were first exposed to. I started out with the first and second Doctors on VHS, so comedy isn't really what I tune in for.
Dinosaurs on a Spaceship is a fun episode, but for me it goes a bit too broad. IMO ditching Nefertiti, Riddell and the kooky robots would've been a great improvement; between Rory and his Dad there's more than enough potential for comedy in the episode without adding a bunch of cartoon characters.
The coolest thing about Dinosaurs on a Spaceship is it introduced some friends of the Doctor who were cool, interesting and used as a one-off, not dragged back to shamble around awfully in a later episode (something Moff was, let's be fair, prone to doing)
Was Dinosaurs on a Spaceship the one where the Doctor murdered the bad guy at the end in an unreasonably brutal way?
I don't even remember what the exact situation was, I just think that was the episode where at the end everyone went "Wait what, did that just happen??"
I don't even remember what the exact situation was, I just think that was the episode where at the end everyone went "Wait what, did that just happen??"
He basically did the "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you" Batman thing.