Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,422
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...over-half-baked-profile-of-white-nationalist/

A New York Times reporter traveled to New Carlisle, Ohio, for "hours of face-to-face conversation" with a "Nazi sympathizer." He then filed a story under this strong headline, "A Voice of Hate in America's Heartland."

And then the cognoscenti roared its disapproval.





A meta-narrative in the story, by Richard Fausset, explains much of the rage. It profiles 29-year-old Tony Hovater and starts with this fine bit of feature writing:

Tony and Maria Hovater were married this fall. They registered at Target. On their list was a muffin pan, a four-drawer dresser and a pineapple slicer.

Ms. Hovater, 25, was worried about Antifa bashing up the ceremony. Weddings are hard enough to plan for when your fiancé is not an avowed white nationalist.

Significant chunks of the piece follow suit, as Fausset explains how the white nationalist loves "Seinfeld," has four cats and otherwise does things that human beings do. Right there in the text, Fausset acknowledges that this very treatment is a goal of white nationalists. "'We need to have more families. We need to be able to just be normal,' said Matthew Heimbach, the leader of the Traditionalist Worker Party, in a podcast conversation with Mr. Hovater. Why, he asked self-mockingly, were so many followers 'abnormal'?" The ending of the story doesn't feel so abnormal:

The pasta was ready. Ms. Hovater talked about how frightening it was this summer to watch from home as the Charlottesville rally spun out of control. Mr. Hovater said he was glad the movement had grown.

They spoke about their future — about moving to a bigger place, about their honeymoon, about having kids.

In fairness to the New York Times, the story did alight on the horrific reality of white nationalism. A Facebook post, for example, daydreamed about the wonderful, white America that would have arisen if only Germany had prevailed in World War II. After the Charlottesville rally in August, in which a suspected white nationalist allegedly used his vehicle to ram a group of protesters, killing a woman, Hovater wrote, "We made history. Hail victory."

Yet the New York Times itself beat its critics to the story about the profile's shortcomings. In the Times Insider section — a place where reporters write about their stories — Fausset acknowledged a "hole at the heart" of the story on Hovater. After the first draft of his piece, Fausset noted, his editor cited a omission: What had prompted Hovater to "take his ideas beyond his living room, beyond the chat rooms, and on to Charlottesville, where he marched in August alongside allies like the neo-Confederate League of the South and the Detroit-based National Socialist Movement, which bills itself as 'America's Premier White Civil Rights Organization'? Where was his Rosebud?"

To fill this void, Fausset rang up Hovater, even though the two had held extensive discussions in Ohio. The subject didn't much help things. "So I went back to Mr. Hovater in search of answers. I still don't think I really found them. I could feel the failure even as Mr. Hovater and I spoke on the phone," writes Fausset in his story about the story.

And so the New York Times published the story anyhow. That makes little sense: This is a newspaper, after all, that prides itself on giving its reporters the time and resources to place fully realized pieces of journalism into print. Whether the topic is allegations of Bill O'Reilly's sexually harassing ways, allegations of Harvey Weinstein's sexually harassing ways, Hillary Clinton's emails or any number of other pursuits, reporters commonly get the time and space to produce lasting work. In this case, however, Fausset & Co. decided they'd done their best: "I beat myself up about all of this for a while, until I decided that the unfilled hole would have to serve as both feature and defect," writes Fausset in the Times Insider piece. "What I had were quotidian details, though to be honest, I'm not even sure what these add up to. Like other committed extremists I have known, Mr. Hovater had little time for a life beyond his full-time job and his line of activism. When he is not doing those things, he likes to be at home with his girlfriend (now his wife) and their cats."
 

Force_XXI

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,222
After the Charlottesville rally in August, in which a suspected white nationalist allegedly used his vehicle to ram a group of protesters, killing a woman, Hovater wrote, "We made history. Hail victory."

Fuck this piece of shit.
 

DonShula

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,841
How do you spend that much time on a story and still come away without the one thing your readers want?

This thing was published like a half-finished video game is shoved out the door in time for the holidays.
 

Mcfrank

Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,424
Glad I give my money to the Bezos/Amazon Washington Post instead of nyt. After trump was elected I said I need to support journalism, but after how the nyt treated Hillary I wasn't going to them. That decision looks better every day.
 

0451

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,207
Canada
First that horribleThomas Friedman article, now this. What is going on with the New York Times?
 

BobLoblaw

This Guy Helps
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,385
For me, it's like watering down the term "white supremacist" and calling them "white nationalists". Technically, they're different, but every indication that I have is that they're exactly the same and the "white nationalist" label was given due to the " white supremacist" stigma. Show me all the "white nationalists" that support and approve of minority rights and immigration across the board and I'll reconsider.
 

Yoshimitsu126

The Fallen
Nov 11, 2017
15,057
United States
Can we also blame Washington Post for not just saying Nazi but White Nationalist instead.

Edit: The NY Times article is definitely more offending though.
 
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Crushed

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,777
Sometimes it's okay to drop a story when you realize that there's nothing there, without trying to turn that "nothing there" into some kind of enigma that gives the non-story a hook.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,624
canada
Telling people evil is banal is important. When people completely seperate themselves from the Other is when these ideologies become ingrained. If youre going to fight it, you need to realize these neo-nazis arent caricatures of the past but are individuals with agency. Each and every one of them have their own influences which lead them towards hate.

the NYT's article is the journalist attempting to find a root cause for the turn. The last line emphasizes where the journalist is coming from, "What makes a man start fires?".
 

AnansiThePersona

Started a revolution but the mic was unplugged
Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,682
I'm more curious on how someone falls in love with a white nationalist while not being one herself. Like, what's sexy about white supremacy?
 

studyguy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,282
It should be noted the title was changed from the original as well.

Original was...

In America's Heartland, The Nazi Sympathizer Next Door.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,799
For me, it's like watering down the term "white supremacist" and calling them "white nationalists". Technically, they're different, but every indication that I have is that they're exactly the same and the "white nationalist" label was given due to the " white supremacist" stigma. Show me all the "white nationalists" that support and approve of minority rights and immigration across the board and I'll reconsider.

It's the same thing as the idiots who want to argue that these people aren't "real Nazis" because they didn't march with Hitler. It's unbelievable.
 

Deleted member 1635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,800
This reminded me that I need to cancel my digital subscription to these guys. Just checked and the only way to do so is to call them. Good lord.
 

Y2Kev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,136
I actually think this must have started as something else and the writer did a bad job...and the editor didn't have the courage to kill it or something. This shouldn't have run.
 

Deleted member 1120

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,511
It's fucking bullshit that they're trying to humanize these fucks. Write articles about the minorities who are actually affected by these bullshit Nazis.
 

studyguy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,282
I actually think this must have started as something else and the writer did a bad job...and the editor didn't have the courage to kill it or something. This shouldn't have run.
The author himself admits at the end he didn't come to any significant conclusion or made connections to help understand underlying issues.

 
Oct 25, 2017
4,852
This reminded me that I need to cancel my digital subscription to these guys. Just checked and the only way to do so is to call them. Good lord.
I'm also trying to, and it looks like there's no phone number for my country so I sent them an email instead.

Seems like I have a little over a week left till the next renewal so they better be fast.
 

Beer Monkey

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,308
I live in Ohio.

If I drove up there and beat the shit out of this Nazi (I considered it) I'd be called intolerant.

In 1950, I'd be called American.

Also, UNSUBSCRIBE from NYT. WaPo and New Yorker are better.
 

iksenpets

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,630
Dallas, TX
I actually think this must have started as something else and the writer did a bad job...and the editor didn't have the courage to kill it or something. This shouldn't have run.

The article pretty much ends with the author admitting that none of the details from their interview with this random Nazi ended up jelling into any sort of coherent narrative, but they just ran it anyway. Story definitely needed an editor willing to kill it.

It's been a rough fucking week for awful NYT profiles. It's crazy how much they've been getting their asses kicked by the Washington Post in terms of providing quality journalism for the Trump era.

Actually it isn't there job to call out bigotry. Peoples anger at the media simply because the anti-far-right is unable to get a clear message to counter them is pretty ridiculous.

It's not their job to call out bigotry per sé, but it's definitely not their job to run uncritical profiles of people who would otherwise be nobodies, and elevating them into some exemplar of a trend of "nice Nazis" that didn't exist until media decided it did. Even keeping a strong neutral tone, there are still editorial decisions to be made in terms of what warrants reporting, and the quotidian details of every Nazi's life should really probably fall well short of that threshold.
 

HStallion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
63,154
Yeesh. Tweeted about Charlottesville like it was a great win for America. That's all you really need to know there.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
94,465
I read it yesterday, reporter sounded like they fell in love with the dude.

I mean every week you get new articles of bigots staring out the window lamenting the world doesn't agree with their stances. But you almost never get articles of people working to make the world a better place, people who are worth documenting
 

legacyzero

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,252
Meet person. Person pays their bills. Works for a living. Does recreational things to pass time. Eats food to survive. Pets their cat. Burns tiki torches and crosses on weekends. Celebrates the world's largest genocide. Plays in a band. Has aspirations to hold a public office.

CATCHES MOTHER FUCKING HANDS REGULARLY.
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,829
He is really into craft beer and vinyl and has a cool blog on local restaurants.
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,119
The reporter acknowledges that his article is missing a critical point, a "heart" and still publishes it to get paid? That's not a sign of a good newspaper. If a story doesn't illuminate something, and is clearly missing an investigative spirit, you don't run with it.
Combined with the piece about MBS, it doesn't paint a good picture of the NYT really. Hope they try to learn something from the feedback.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,534
The reporter acknowledges that his article is missing a critical point, a "heart" and still publishes it to get paid? That's not a sign of a good newspaper. If a story doesn't illuminate something, and is clearly missing an investigative spirit, you don't run with it.
Combined with the piece about MBS, it doesn't paint a good picture of the NYT really. Hope they try to learn something from the feedback.

This is what happens when you fire editors and hire bloggers, with no journalism experience, to write for papers.
 

Rocket Man

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,509
Uhhh did NYT change leadership or something recently?

This plus the shit tier Muhammad Bin Salman article is not a good look
 

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,527
Gentrified Brooklyn
It was a useless article. Nazi's go to the grocery store, plan weddings, play instruments? Personally I thought they hid in bunkers, played only viking era flutes, and survived on fruits and berries in a Norse forest
 

LiK

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,291
FYI, when you cancel your digital sub with NYT, you must call them. There's no way to cancel online. I remember having to be on hold for an insane amount of time before I got a live person so make sure to stay on the line. Once you get someone, they'll try to convince you to stay with discounts etc.
 
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