gamers = people who play games. same thing

Xeontech said:

It's not that "it's fine" it's that most people don't use the word gamer the way you do. Most people use 'gamer' to mean someone that plays games.

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"Most people". I mean, this is...

The reason I'm posting tons of links to papers and websites is because it's evidence of how the perception of "gamers" in non-industry media is toxic. Your "most people" is just anecdotal evidence. How do you know "most people" don't use the word "gamer" that way? How do you know they don't think the word isn't toxic, even if they do still use it? Language is at least partially defined by how widely its implicit and explicit connotations are known, and we can see this in the use of racist language that is only known by certain groups, and in the use of the word "dogwhistling".

An argument that relies on "most people" and anecdotes is not a strong argument, even if its conclusion is correct.

I tend to take a pretty literal approach to the meaning of words, so if someone asks me if I'm a gamer, I won't challenge it.

If they follow up with "Oh, so you're one of those dudes who hates women and minorities?" I guess I'd have to explain that my answer was informed by the dictionary definition of the word, not any kind of cultural shorthand.

I don't think I'd announce myself as a gamer, but then I don't think I'd announce myself as anything. I think saying things like "I like ________" comes across less intense than "I am a ________".

PaulloDEC said:

I tend to take a pretty literal approach to the meaning of words, so if someone asks me if I'm a gamer, I won't challenge it.

If they follow up with "Oh, so you're one of those dudes who hates women and minorities?" I guess I'd have to explain that my answer was informed by the dictionary definition of the word, not any kind of cultural shorthand.

I don't think I'd announce myself as a gamer, but then I don't think I'd announce myself as anything. I think saying things like "I like ________" comes across less intense than "I am a ________".

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It's just straight that people would almost prefer the nomenclature to be "Yes, I'm a gamer, but not one of THOSE gamers". As if that's supposed to mean something to anyone not in the know.

I get it if someone you don't know very well and also doesn't know gaming very well uses it as a catch all for some sort of conversation starter, but...I think everytime I've had a real-world conversation about "GAMERS", it has been when some vile dealings in this culture have hit the mainstage and called into question the morality or general cognizance of people who play video games. Maybe it was gamer gate, maybe it was Steve Bannon explaining how he started a gold farming company to pull gamers into GOP echo chambers, maybe it was Milo Yannopolis getting kicked off college campuses, maybe it was the rationale behind the Sandy Hook shootings, maybe it was the congressional hearings behind night trap and mortal kombat.

But when someone wants to have a conversation about "GAMERS" it's usually because something bad happened. As if they want to discuss the nature of the pejorative. Because if someone I know wants to talk about video games and they don't know about video games, they'll bring up specific examples. Fortnite, Halo, Call of Duty, Madden, etc. But they don't bring up "GAMERS".

"GAMERS" is reserved for when something bad happens. "Gamers" is said with squinted eyes and a sneer.

Mesoian said:

It's just straight that people would almost prefer the nomenclature to be "Yes, I'm a gamer, but not one of THOSE gamers". As if that's supposed to mean something to anyone not in the know.

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It's tricky. I understand not wanting to let go of a term you might use to describe yourself; as a rule, I'm firmly against the idea of letting shitty people "own" words. I don't really use the word "gamer" for myself too often, but I still don't like the idea of shitty people getting to have it.

Mesoian said:

I get it if someone you don't know very well and also doesn't know gaming very well uses it as a catch all for some sort of conversation starter, but...I think everytime I've had a real-world conversation about "GAMERS", it has been when some vile dealings in this culture have hit the mainstage and called into question the morality or general cognizance of people who play video games. Maybe it was gamer gate, maybe it was Steve Bannon explaining how he started a gold farming company to pull gamers into GOP echo chambers, maybe it was Milo Yannopolis getting kicked off college campuses, maybe it was the rationale behind the Sandy Hook shootings, maybe it was the congressional hearings behind night trap and mortal kombat.

But when someone wants to have a conversation about "GAMERS" it's usually because something bad happened. As if they want to discuss the nature of the pejorative. Because if someone I know wants to talk about video games and they don't know about video games, they'll bring up specific examples. Fortnite, Halo, Call of Duty, Madden, etc. But they don't bring up "GAMERS".

"GAMERS" is reserved for when something bad happens. "Gamers" is said with squinted eyes and a sneer.

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See, I could never have a conversation talking shit about "gamers" because on some level I'd be internally thinking "But aren't you a gamer?"

When I talk about those kinds of people, I'll use additional words so that they're not just "gamers". Asshole gamers. Garbage gamers. Pieces of shit who also happen to play games. And so forth.

PaulloDEC said:

See, I could never have a conversation talking shit about "gamers" because on some level I'd be internally thinking "But aren't you a gamer?"

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I have no disillusions about the fact that every time I had those conversations, I was being judged by the people asking just as hard as I was judging the people they were talking about. You're totally right, it's a tricky thing.

Maybe I'm just used to it because I often have to respond to, "BLACK PEOPLE" said in hushed tones when something happens.

how have i gone through this whole life without ever being asked if i'm a gamer

I'm not a "gamer" but I enjoy games, I don't tie my identity in with my activities, except for being a Dad, but even then that isn't my identity, it's just something I am, albeit a huge part.

To get into the sociology of it...

Everyone plays games, and learning and play go hand in hand until at least the early teens, as it's a good way to embed knowledge and keep the attention of children within a class, when used appropriately.

However, the question "are you a gamer?" and it's partner statement "I am a gamer" can illustrate the human need to be part of a clique, group or society that pushes identity first. "Are you one of us?" is an alternative reading of the question - depending upon person asking - and better explains why there's pushback against women and PoC within some groups of gamers who tie their identity (gamer) to what they do (play games). It's why I'm of the opinion that the word itself is less of an issue than the gatekeeping of knowledge, and the related requirement for the "other" (like women) to prove they're real gamers.

The OP said in the first post:

Being a "gamer" is not a worldview or a set of beliefs. Its just a shorter way to say "person who plays games" without having to say that whole sentence.

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But the reality is that there's a group or groups of people for whom "gamer" is a set of beliefs or worldview, because it ties to identity. That's a specific choice they made, maybe years ago, maybe yesterday, that affects many things.

Are all "gamers" like that? No. Are all people who play games like that? No. But the pushback against "The Death of Gamers" articles in 2014, and everything since then - including this thread - illustrates that some/many "gamers" are like this. Dan Golding wrote this back in '14:

Taken in their simplest, most basic form, a videogame is a creative application of computer technology. For a while, perhaps, when such technology was found mostly in masculine cultures, videogames accordingly developed a limited, inwards-looking perception of the world that marked them as different from everyone else. This is the gamer, an identity based on difference and separateness. When playing games was an unusual activity, this identity was constructed in order to define and unite the group (and to help demarcate it as a targetable demographic for business). It became deeply bound up in assumptions and performances of gender and sexuality. To be a gamer was to signal a great many things, not all of which are about the actual playing of videogames. Research like this, by Adrienne Shaw, proves this point clearly.

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4 years and countless "gamers" whining and complaining later, it's hard not to argue that this is still true today. Even if gaming is more mainstream - with mums and dads and politicians and writers and Lady Gaga playing games - "gamer" is still an identity, with a set of assumptions, beliefs and worldviews.

am i gamer? no.

i've played games all my life, but i am not a gamer. i was never given the right. i was the 'cool girl', who knew what street fighter was, which made me infinitely more fuckable, but the moment i kicked their ass, or did something they couldn't, it was made very clear — i could never be 'one of them'.

but, am i a gaymer?

y o u b e t t e r b e l i e v e i a m

Xeontech said:

Hard to make an argument when you're wrong.

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No, I'm sorry, but you're wrong here. You're completely wrong to compare people making fun of a hobby to a group of people who performed genocide as the same thing. Your starting statement is so wrong, that no one is bothering to take it seriously.

Strangelove77 said:

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God this video is so cringe.

Xaszatm said:

No, I'm sorry, but you're wrong here. You're completely wrong to compare people making fun of a hobby to a group of people who performed genocide as the same thing. Your starting statement is so wrong, that no one is bothering to take it seriously.

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It was an exaggerated example of the same type of behavior.

Generalizations are convenient which is why they appeal to the inarticulate and to non-critical thinkers. But it's just lazy and says more about the people making them than the people they're about.

Whether you identify as a gamer or a game enthusiast, the only difference is that made up cushion you created in your head.

Pretending you're not somthing you are is just adding to the problem. Own up to the things you enjoy, stop the cowardly act of hiding the fact, cause anyone posting on this forum is a game enthusiast, video game player, has gaming interests of in other words is a GAMER. Trying to hide it isn't helping your cause.

Xeontech said:

For most people that play games, the term game enthusiast, gameophile, game player, one who plays games, etc ad nauseum are completely interchangeable with gamer.

You are using an EXTREMELY broad label to vilify a tiny small slice of the population that falls under that label. And worse you try to force that vilified definition on anyone that dares use the term.

It would suit the cause better if you used a specific term for that slice, like 'gamergaters' or 'gamedicks' or something that doesn't sound like your attacking every person that is interested in games.

Thing is, there are some of you that WANT to generalize and vilify the entire group due to hate. And those of you like that are no better than racists and Nazis you fight so hard.

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Rise up brother, rise up.

Strangelove77 said:

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Th.. this can't be sincere right?

Xeontech said:

??only ones saying "fuck off" are the immature ignorant posts like yours and your buddies.

"I laughed so hard!"
"I don't feel it"
"Fuck outta here"

When others of us argue the term is too broad, should be inclusive and hate based generalization is wrong.

Who is ignorant and immature here? You guys obviously have no counterargument.

Edit: most gamers won't even know what you're talking about when you say 'gamergater'

You guys live in a vacuum that only propagates more hate towards those that don't deserve it.

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Nice and now you hit gamergate isn't even that big of a deal note...

So now it's "Gamergate wasn't a big deal and some of you are just as bad as Nazis... how dare you imply I'm immature"

Xeontech said:

It was an exaggerated example of the same type of behavior.

Generalizations are convenient which is why they appeal to the inarticulate and to non-critical thinkers. But it's just lazy and says more about the people making them than the people they're about.

Whether you identify as a gamer or a game enthusiast, the only difference is that made up cushion you created in your head.

Pretending you're not somthing you are is just adding to the problem. Own up to the things you enjoy, stop the cowardly act of hiding the fact, cause anyone posting on this forum is a game enthusiast, video game player, has gaming interests of in other words is a GAMER. Trying to hide it isn't helping your cause.

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Dude you just said a lot of us are not better than Nazis in defense of your label... and now you demanding we embrace your label?

This thread has made me even less wanting the label than ever btw..

Lady Gaga has called herself a Gamer today/yesterday.

Is it all good now? Has she cleansed the term?

darz1 said:

Because we dont agree that those fuckwits define the group, no matter how much they might want to. If it were up to them we wouldnt even share the same hobby but they dont get to decide that for me. Gaming doesnt belong to them. Its much bigger than their little circle of alt right woman hating losers.

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have you even considered what it's like to play an online game as a woman? this isn't an edge case dude

darz1 said:

Because we dont agree that those fuckwits define the group, no matter how much they might want to. If it were up to them we wouldnt even share the same hobby but they dont get to decide that for me. Gaming doesnt belong to them. Its much bigger than their little circle of alt right woman hating losers.

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Fine for you... but this thread is you insisting that a bunch of people, many of whom are those treated poorly by the gaming community, adopt a label they don't want to.

How is that helping anyone, you're not making it more inclusive, you're dictating terms.

And frankly gaming caters to them, panders to them... that's why we're in this mess. The industry has a rot at its heart, Gamergate wasn't repudiated, it was tolerated and in some cases outright endorsed

And I mean it's not just GG, look at what happens when a game not directed at your typical Gamer gets good reviews. There was a literal freak out because Gone Home got top scores and GOTY nominations.

And it's not just that stuff, look at the shitfest thrown at Stirling for giving BotW 7.5

Kyuuji said:

Th.. this can't be sincere right?

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No, it is.
The original uploader took it down but people reposted it online.

excelsiorlef said:

Fine for you... but this thread is you insisting that a bunch of people, many of whom are those treated poorly by the gaming community, adopt a label they don't want to.

How is that helping anyone, you're not making it more inclusive, you're dictating terms.

And frankly gaming caters to them, panders to them... that's why we're in this mess. The industry has a rot at its heart, Gamergate wasn't repudiated, it was tolerated and in some cases outright endorsed

And I mean it's not just GG, look at what happens when a game not directed at your typical Gamer gets good reviews. There was a literal freak out because Gone Home got top scores and GOTY nominations.

And it's not just that stuff, look at the shitfest thrown at Stirling for giving BotW 7.5

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Or recently the new Diablo. And this is before we take into consideration threads about objectification of women in games and representation of minorities and see what these "inclusive" gamers post there.

I don't know why is so hard to understand people want to stay far away from that crap.

Ferrs said:

Or recently the new Diablo. And this is before we take into consideration threads about objectification of women in games and representation of minorities and see what these "inclusive" gamers post there.

I don't know why is so hard to understand people want to stay far away from that crap.

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What's wrong in people expressing their disappointment in the new Diablo?

Hercule said:

What's wrong in people expressing their disappointment in the new Diablo?

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There's no problem per se expressing dissapointing about a product, but a lot of expressions have been overly aggresive and insulting to the devs.

No fucking way.

"Gamer" does not mean everyone who plays games, and you know it doesn't. Being a "Gamer" has never been inclusive, and you know it hasn't. "Gamers" have a shitty reputation, and they deserve it, they don't get to hide behind the rest of us after decades of gatekeeping and lack of acceptance.

Gamers should own what they've become. They did it to themselves.

I'm not opposed to labels, I'm a queer furry and happy to say it, but even though I play games every day I would never, ever want to associate myself with being a gamer.

SolicitorPirate said:

Lol, after decades of gatekeeping and insisting people aren't real gamers because of their gender or the games or devices they like, suddenly you want to hoist the term on all of us now that it's rightly associated with bigots and mysogynists with the emotional maturity of children?

Fuck off

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Bingo.

I'm not always about ditching dumpster fires, but for those who still want to define what they do, how about using the term "inclusive gamer" instead? I don't think there's any way to misinterpret that, though it might be setting up an opposition and putting tension where tension wasn't before.

Otherwise I don't see a solution other than having these conversations about toxicity as they come up. Ambitious may be organizing a campaign around inclusive gaming to bring attention to the issues. Gamers taking care of their community and what not.

Ferrs said:

There's no problem per se expressing dissapointing about a product, but a lot of expressions have been overly aggresive and insulting to the devs.

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The only thing that was insulting was closing your 200$ (+ travel expenses) show for PC players with a mobile game nobody wanted.

Blizzard nurtured for years the emotional attachment of their fans to their benefit, so when it backfires, I find it silly when some people on the sidelines are suddenly defending "poor blizzard".

Polygatari said:

Lady Gaga has called herself a Gamer today/yesterday.

Is it all good now? Has she cleansed the term?

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the term was never dirty in the first place, at least not outside of era.

frankly i'm baffled that this kind of lazy generalizations is so widely used on era, but here we are.

Hercule said:

What's wrong in people expressing their disappointment in the new Diablo?

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Theyre being manbabies about it.

Majukun said:

the term was never dirty in the first place, at least not outside of era.

frankly i'm baffled that this kind of lazy generalizations is so widely used on era, but here we are.

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Of course I agree with you :)

Was just calling out the morons.

They're so close to the realization that corporations will not take their hand in marriage and the hype machine has failed them.

Instead they're so focused on the micro issue of a mobile game being annoucened instead of a 3 second titlecard at a PR event that they willingly paid for.

There's so much wrong with the whole picture but their gripe is... that they can't give a company more money.

1. Games have been marketed towards teenage to young adult men heavily from the 90s up to now (although is less severe now, mid to late 2000's was probably the peak)
2. Games are also all about empowerment, particularly male empowerment
3. Games have generally had a negative stereotype associated with them historically (probably due to points 1 and 2)

Because of the above points, people that are in to games, have let it form a big part of their identity in a degree larger and a lot different to how fans of film, books, theatre etc have done previously.

Mainly due to the marketing part, it's a large part of their identity, they are used to being specifically catered to, and they have a chip on their shoulder because it has negatives stereotypes associated with it.

That's how we end up with "Gamer" - and it's a derogatory term because it's associated with young males that have an unhealthy level of their identity associated with videogames, that want to maintain being fully catered to by marketing, and feel rejected by society because they love games.

That's how you end up with gamergate, and how you end up with this BlizzCon embarrassment.

• Gamergate because the females want to take our games away (We aren't the sole target for marketing any more, the females are accepted by society, we aren't and now the companies don't want us as the target demographic any more)
• Blizzcon because the casuals want to take our games away (We aren't the sole target for marketing any more the casuals are accepted by society, we aren't and now the companies don't want us as the target demographic any more).

When you think about, it's massively psychological, Gamergate was a collective reaction to perceived abandonment and rejection caused by "the left."

Anyway, words mean things and gather connotations, you can sit here and say Gamer = People Who Play Games - but that isn't true, it has developed a negative connotation and for good reason.

Redneck = Person with a red neck
Hillbilly = Person that lives in the hills

But come on, we know what these words really mean in today's world, let's not feign ignorance here.

Rudolph said:

Theyre being manbabies about it.

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So in the future we should all applaud Konami for doing the right business move in making their games pachinko games?

Polygatari said:

Was just calling out the morons.

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Uncalled for. Give me a reason why you're taking a dig at the people who are actually giving reasoned arguments about how words have multiple meanings, depending upon who says them.

Pixieking said:

Uncalled for. Give me a reason why you're taking a dig at the people who are actually giving reasoned arguments about how words have multiple meanings, depending upon who says them.

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Because I feel guilty by association if the ownership of the term is left with gamergate types.

Also logically I feel that "gamer" is a neutral term referring to someone who plays or has an interest in video games as a medium. It makes no logical sense to allow that term to have a narrow meaning than what the word literally means.

Polygatari said:

Because I feel guilty by association if the ownership of the term is left with gamergate types.

Also logically I feel that "gamer" is a neutral term referring to someone who plays or has an interest in video games as a medium.

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So you're calling people who disagree with you and make you feel crappy "morons"? I mean, am I misunderstanding you here? Genuine question, because it feels like I am.

Pixieking said:

So you're calling people who disagree with you and make you feel crappy "morons"? I mean, am I misunderstanding you here? Genuine question, because it feels like I am.

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I think they are morons yes. To promote or believe that the word "gamer" has a meaning beyond simply someone who plays video games or is an enthusiast of the medium, is moronic to me yes. Simple.

Polygatari said:

Because I feel guilty by association if the ownership of the term is left with gamergate types.

Also logically I feel that "gamer" is a neutral term referring to someone who plays or has an interest in video games as a medium. It makes no logical sense to allow that term to have a narrow meaning than what the word literally means.

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You can feel whatever you want but the reality is that "Gamer" means something negative and was worn with pride by GamerGate.

Tzarscream said:

You can feel whatever you want but the reality is that "Gamer" means something negative and was worn with pride by GamerGate.

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No. It means something negative for people who want to be prejudiced.

GamerGate people don't own a term that has a literal dictionary definition as "a person who plays video games or participates in role-playing games."

Bansai said:

The only thing that was insulting was closing your 200$ (+ travel expenses) show for PC players with a mobile game nobody wanted.

Blizzard nurtured for years the emotional attachment of their fans to their benefit, so when it backfires, I find it silly when some people on the sidelines are suddenly defending "poor blizzard".

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what te fuck is this nonsense.

If someone gets so emotional attached to a product that ends up throwing tantrums and insults when they get something they don't want is sorely on them. I'm not defending Blizzard, but I'm neither defending toxicity in gaming like some of you guys.

Polygatari said:

I think they are morons yes. To promote or believe that the word "gamer" has a meaning beyond simply someone who plays video games or is an enthusiast of the medium, is moronic to me yes. Simple.

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So the lack of self-awareness here is something you should look at.

You want to wear the badge of "gamer" with pride.
But other people make you feel crappy, because of associations they make with the word, which have nothing to do with you personally but through the actions of a bunch of dicks.
So rather than understand that other people have mixed feelings to the word "gamer" and can recognise and point out those problematic issues in a mature manner to you...
... You call them morons.

You're a gamer. Calling people who disagree with you (and whom you disagree with) morons.

Do you see how that just feeds into the negative, irrational behaviour of "gamers"?

(Legit not trying to be a dick, just...)

Polygatari said:

No. It means something negative for people who want to be prejudiced.

GamerGate people don't own a term that has a literal dictionary definition as "a person who plays video games or participates in role-playing games."

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My dude, language changes over time, GamerGate co-opted that word and changed the meaning.

By all means you can be stubborn and deny the inevitable - keep using the word in your way - however typically it's very difficult to re-appropriate a word all by yourself.

Tzarscream said:

You can feel whatever you want but the reality is that "Gamer" means something negative and was worn with pride by GamerGate.

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something doesn't mean something negative just because ERA (well, some guys on era) says so.

who the fuck care if gamergate used the world gamer in it, they do not represent all gamers in any way, shape or form

especially considering how big the category is nowadays

Pixieking said:

So the lack of self-awareness here is something you should look at.

You want to wear the badge of "gamer" with pride.
But other people make you feel crappy, because of associations they make with the word, which have nothing to do with you personally but through the actions of a bunch of dicks.
So rather than understand that other people have mixed feelings to the word "gamer" and can recognise and point out those problematic issues in a mature manner to you...
... You call them morons.

You're a gamer. Calling people who disagree with you (and whom you disagree with) morons.

Do you see how that just feeds into the negative, irrational behaviour of "gamers"?

(Legit not trying to be a dick, just...)

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It's not about pride, I'm just stuck on the logical part of this argument.

"Gamer" literally means "a person who plays video games or participates in role-playing games." I'm not letting that be redefined as "Gamergate people" because of peoples prejudice.

Tzarscream said:

My dude, language changes over time, GamerGate co-opted that word and changed the meaning.

By all means you can be stubborn and deny the inevitable - keep using the word in your way - however typically it's very difficult to re-appropriate a word all by yourself.

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Gamergate is a particularly American phenomenon and a particularly niche internet phenomenon. The meaning of the name "Gamer" doesn't change Worldwide because of what is going on, on the American internet.

I'm from the UK. I can tell you a fact that Gamer here is the dictionary definition.