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excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,316
You might imagine that rampant transphobia is primarily animated by a conservative movement, as seen in the U.S. in various states' bathroom bills, or the entire Trump administration. The truth is, while the British conservative right would almost certainly be more than happy to whip up a frenzy of transphobia, they simply haven't needed to, because some sections of the left over here are doing their hate-peddling for them. The most vocal source of this hatred has emerged, sadly, from within circles of radical feminists. British feminism has an increasingly notorious TERF problem.

https://theoutline.com/post/6536/british-feminists-media-transphobic?zd=1&zi=toxttugj


This is an excellent deep dive into how TERF and transphobia has been able to root in the Birtish left and the British media....

I had no idea that last month the Guardian literally released an official stance of the Guardian, that amounted to giving credibility that trans women rights can be a threat to cis women and that toxicity on both sides is to blame.

Here's that piece:

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...e-gender-recognition-act-where-rights-collide

I really thought the Guardian has moved on from casual publishing transphobia in their editorial page... I guess no.

Guardian US branch had to literally write a repudiation of their UK brothers and sisters: https://www.theguardian.com/comment...dian-editorial-response-transgender-rights-uk
 

SigmasonicX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,474
It's pretty crazy that a site for mothers could have such a huge influence. It's weird to see the similarities between using vulnerable mothers to recruit for transphobia and using gamers to recruit for white supremacy.
 

Captain Shivers

User requested ban
Banned
Mar 12, 2018
117
I can't vouch for the US experience, but UK TERFs are certainly a special kind of terrifying.

One trans supportive social event I went to in the summer spent the first hour of the night doing nothing but warning about the dangers of being outed on social media by TERF groups in the UK (as some of them will deliberately try to fuck up your life as much as legally possible).

The organiser of said social event regularly has police protection when going to any trans supportive public speaking sessions, due to TERF harassment they've received. Their outrageous viewpoint that warrants the need for police protection? Being trans is not a choice and not wrong.

As I say, I don't know enough about the non-UK environment, but this soggy island seems to have a plethora of superficially inoffensive, and otherwise socially liberal, public-eye figures who make no apologies for being transphobic.

People like Robert Webb, Graham Linehan, and, perhaps most insidious of them all in terms of ability to normalise transphobia, JK Fucking Rowling.
 

TheIdiot

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,729
I can't vouch for the US experience, but UK TERFs are certainly a special kind of terrifying.

One trans supportive social event I went too in the summer spent the first hour of the night doing nothing but warning about the dangers of being outed on social media by TERF groups in the UK (as some of them will deliberately try to fuck up your life as much as legally possible).

The organiser of said social event regularly has police protection when going to any trans supportive public speaking sessions, due to TERF harassment they've received. Their outrageous viewpoint that warrants the need for police protection? Being trans is not a choice and not wrong.

As I say, I don't know enough about the non-UK environment, but this soggy island seems to have a plethora of superficially inoffensive, and otherwise socislly liberal, public-eye figures who make no apologies for being transphobic.

People like Robert Webb, Graham Linehan, and, perhaps most insidious of them all in terms of ability to normalise transphobia, JK Fucking Rowling.

Robert Webb is transphobic?
 

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
It's pretty crazy that a site for mothers could have such a huge influence. It's weird to see the similarities between using vulnerable mothers to recruit for transphobia and using gamers to recruit for white supremacy.

Mumsnet is just completely terrible, and even their attempts to make things more even were completely skewed to one side. They actually compared being called "Trans-identifying Male" or deadnaming someone to calling someone cis or a TERF. For some reason, there are so many in the UK seems to think that TERFs have some valid views and that we need to compromise with people who will never accept who we are.
 

Ratrat

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,867
I cant understand where they are coming from at all. What do they have to gain?
 

Deleted member 41271

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 21, 2018
2,258
The interesting bit is how much of this is funded by religious groups, some of which are from the US. Some of these "feminist" groups even campaigned *against* the abortion campaign in ireland(!!!!) and attempted to sabotage pride marches. Irish feminists pretty much had to tell them to GTFO.

Consequently, TERFs tend to work together with far-right groups rather often in Britain. It's pretty...telling.

I cant understand where they are coming from at all. What do they have to gain?

Money from right-wing millionaires, mostly.
 

Ratrat

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,867
How would terf even be a slur if it perfectly describes what they are? What would they rather be called?
 

Deleted member 41271

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 21, 2018
2,258
Some addendums:
http://www.transadvocate.com/fake-r...ti-lgbt-james-dobson-organization_n_20207.htm
https://twitter.com/caseyexplosion/status/967723440936497157
https://feministire.com/2018/01/22/...lk-tour-from-a-group-of-feminists-in-ireland/

To me it seems as if trans rights are just used as a wedge issue, and setting up a "we're feminists guys!" seems a pretty simple way to do so. There's more such attempts undertaken by right-wing groups, unfortunately, and the overlap with the alt-right is surprisingly big. "Dr. Radfem", a supposed feminist, for example, was friends with Ben Shapiro and David Davies.

(not that there aren't transphobic feminists, there absolutely are. Just look at this forum, being progressive doesn't mean one can't have shitty ideas about LGBT people0, sadly)
 

Moff

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,780
europe might be quite behind the US when it comes to transgender rights, it's not really talked about a lot. I don't think I even want to know what most people in my country think about transpeople. I don't understand at all where that hate is coming from.
 

Lagamorph

Wrong About Chicken
Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,355
I have to admit I'm at least proud the UK company I work for are very supportive of the LGBT community, both publicly and internally.

Sadly it's looking like an increasingly rare viewpoint in modern Britain.
 

Jintor

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,401
the UK guardian editorial is garbage plain and simple
 

MilesQ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,490
I have to admit I'm at least proud the UK company I work for are very supportive of the LGBT community, both publicly and internally.

Sadly it's looking like an increasingly rare viewpoint in modern Britain.

In my limited experience, this tends to be more for gay people and less about supporting trans people. Trans always got the short end of the stick when it actually came to showing support.
 

julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,143
I cant understand where they are coming from at all. What do they have to gain?

I thought this was a good take on a TERF:

[...] Greer's belief that surgery can't 'turn a man into a woman' and the biological essentialism to which this commits her, is not just a hallmark of Second Wave feminism, but the very basis on which it sought to build a common movement. It's not some wacky metaphysical conceit she and many other feminists of her era happen to believe for no reason; it is, or historically was, invested with a tremendous amount of productive and positive meaning that made feminism possible as a project. Whatever criticisms of seventies feminism are warranted (I won't go through them because I don't have all day), it did achieve substantial progress for many women, partially enabled by this belief.

The burden of reproductive labour that has characterised women's oppression—sexual availability, pregnancy, birth, childrearing, housework, the constant threat of rape and assault—arises, on this account, directly from biological causes. It's not hard to see why the existence of trans people poses a challenge for Greer; if she accepts trans women as women, her account of the material basis for female solidarity—biological sex—is extinguished. Her rejection of the legitimacy of trans identities is therefore a sort of cipher for fears about the stability and cohesion of the 'women's movement' as a whole.

Of course Greer is seriously misguided with respect to her specifics. Biology means nothing in a vacuum; only the forces of culture and society intervening on biology can be said to produce any meaning at all, including oppression. 'Female bodies', which she defines as bodies capable of pregnancy and birth, only become the instrument by which women are subjugated when patriarchal social forces, the class interests of men, act to produce this state of affairs. This might seem an insignificant point, but it really is crucial. When Greer refers to women's biology, she is referring to a constructed set of meanings that are produced by oppressive social forces. By reifying these meanings, she implicitly accepts a model of women's bodies that is created by and serves the interests of patriarchy.

Similar oppressive forces shape the meaning of trans women's bodies, and produce trans misogyny. That's why it makes complete sense for non-trans, or cis, women to take trans women at their word regarding their identities: what we all have in common is that our lives are shaped by the operation of sexism. Cis women's occupation of an inferior spot within the gendered hierarchy is also the only thing that we all have in common. It's class all the way down.

When Greer says trans women aren't women, she is policing a line of demarcation she perceives as the enabling force of collective struggle. Unfortunately, what her words effect is an attack on nascent forms of solidarity she doesn't understand.

https://meanjin.com.au/essays/get-mad-and-get-even-liberal-feminism-and-the-second-wave-undertow/
 

Lagamorph

Wrong About Chicken
Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,355
Cool cool sorry just had to ask cause often the same people who hate me are members of LGB or allies there of
No worries, it's a fair question.

My cousin worked for the company when she came out as Trans (I hope that's the correct terminology, forgive my ignorance if it isn't) and the company were hugely supportive of her during her transition.
 

MrLuchador

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,486
The Internet
British written press is utter shite, as it isn't held up to the same scrutiny and codes as our broadcast press is. Piers Morgan made his name from being the editor of a newspaper, so yeah. 'Media' as a blanket term doesn't fit, but feel free to shit on the paper rags all you want.

The Metro paper ran a full page ad from an anti-LGBT group on LGBT awareness day last month too, if you want to add that to your list.

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/10/10/metro-newspaper-full-page-ad-attacking-transgender-reforms/
 

Ravensmash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,797
That's disappointing from The Guardian, especially as I'm a subscriber.

Certainly does seem like we're behind in some regards - although I'm pleased that there wasn't an issue with the US version publishing that rebuttal.

I hope future coverage is more inclusive.
 
OP
OP
excelsiorlef

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,316
British written press is utter shite, as it isn't held up to the same scrutiny and codes as our broadcast press is. Piers Morgan made his name from being the editor of a newspaper, so yeah. 'Media' as a blanket term doesn't fit, but feel free to shit on the paper rags all you want.

The Metro paper ran a full page ad from an anti-LGBT group on LGBT awareness day last month too, if you want to add that to your list.

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/10/10/metro-newspaper-full-page-ad-attacking-transgender-reforms/

The Guardian is one of the biggest enablers so it's not just the rags
 

Rosen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
245
The UK has many systemic issues with trans people ranging from the NHS with the pedantic gate keeping Olympics to the enshrinement of disgraceful second wave views. This is usually why many things get given a pass as those who are in positions of power are trans exclusionary such as the members of SFN.
They're all rags. They can push whatever they want and run whatever narrative they want and won't be held up to any scrutiny.
That doesn't stop it from being used by TERFs
 

gosublime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,429
Thanks for posting the article, excelsiorlef - really interesting and I'd never heard about the U.K. Sceptics group before. I wasn't surprised to see Helen Lewis mentioned in there as I'd recently posted about her and an article she'd written in the Jordan Peterson thread. I'll put it here as well -

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...self-id-designed-solve-real-debate-has-failed

Some interesting quotes if you can't access it:

I believe that it's possible for someone born male to be a woman – a "real" woman, whatever that means – and vice versa. Male and female are biological categories, but "man" and "woman" are social ones. I see it like citizenship: you can be born in Dhaka or Dresden, and end up just as British as someone born in Doncaster.

However, the implications of pure self-ID – that we can never challenge anyone else's identity, because it is purely a matter of internal essence – are concerning. We need a system that does not treat all trans people as potential threats, but also recognises unsavoury characters will try to abuse any blurring of single-sex provision.

The U.K. is not at the forefront of trans rights and I've wondered for a while way that might be.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,826
I saw him basically say that gender is completely made up and just a social construct so he can't understand how can transgender people exist

Yeah
That's a very... unique take.

Man, I don't get TERFS. I've seen plenty of bigotry, but these people seem threatened. Like acknowledging the existence and legitimacy of trans people means they lose something in return.
 

Tetrinski

Banned
May 17, 2018
2,915
User Warned: Inflammatory generalizations
That idea that they used to own the world and are better than anyone else has made the British, more notoriously English, general population one of the most hateful ones on the planet.
 

Jeff Albertson

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
2,672
Ah this makes some sense to me now.

A girl I knew casually went to Uni a year or two back, became a pretty staunch feminist according to her tweets, fair enough. Recently however a glance at her twitter shows nothing but retweet's and arguments 'defending' womanhood from the 'threat' of trans people, I've seen some words that I can't remember but basically saying that Trans people want to claim to title of woman and have women called something else.

All quite unsettling really
 

Ravensmash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,797
That idea that they used to own the world and are better than anyone else has made the British, more notoriously English, general population one of the most hateful ones on the planet.

I mean, that's quite a leap from the topic at hand and a fairly big generalisation.

I don't think Britain is perfect, but we're far from the most hateful society around.
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,736
I wasn't awarw what TERF stood for until reading this article. I just don't get what the point is. What is there to gain, why have this fight, etc. But as said earlier...some people just love to hate.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,826
Ah this makes some sense to me now.

A girl I knew casually went to Uni a year or two back, became a pretty staunch feminist according to her tweets, fair enough. Recently however a glance at her twitter shows nothing but retweet's and arguments 'defending' womanhood from the 'threat' of trans people, I've seen some words that I can't remember but basically saying that Trans people want to claim to title of woman and have women called something else.

All quite unsettling really
It's vaguely reminiscent of the fight for marriage equality. As if same sex couples would somehow diminish the institution of marriage itself by "changing the definition."
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
Never really thought that the UK was anti-trans more so than other western countries but now that I think about it your absolutely right OP. All the major Terf celebs come from here and Transgenderism is the butt of jokes in pretty much every single British made comedy show at some point.
 

Amnixia

â–˛ Legend â–˛
The Fallen
Jan 25, 2018
10,411
The Guardian rejects the idea that one of these positions is the right one – and the other wrong. Important questions of personal identity are at stake, but also legal rights and protections. (The rights of trans men are far less controversial because they do not, while transitioning, gain access to spaces designed to protect a disadvantaged group.)

....

What the fuck, the Guardian.

That's literally a common transphobic argument (trans womens access to bathrooms / changing rooms etc).
 
OP
OP
excelsiorlef

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,316
Never really thought that the UK was anti-trans more so than other western countries but now that I think about it your absolutely right OP. All the major Terf celebs come from here and Transgenderism is the butt of jokes in pretty much every single British made comedy show at some point.

The Guardian a few years ago was literally a TERF editorial farm
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,736
I wonder how British media in terms of TV shows and movies represents trans topics. Trying to google if they are riddled with insulting/poor represnetation, or if it just tends to stay away completely.
 

MrLuchador

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,486
The Internet

Rosen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
245
I wonder how British media in terms of TV shows and movies represents trans topics. Trying to google if they are riddled with insulting/poor represnetation, or if it just tends to stay away completely.
As below:
Never really thought that the UK was anti-trans more so than other western countries but now that I think about it your absolutely right OP. All the major Terf celebs come from here and Transgenderism is the butt of jokes in pretty much every single British made comedy show at some point.
An example of this is the IT Crowd with the whole plot point of one episode being violence against a trans women. Unsurprisingly this was written by a TERF.
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,736
Wow. I just looked up that episode of IT Crowd and read the synopsis. I've heard a lot of praise for the show, but that episode alone is all I needed to never watch. I pulled the clip of the ending Fight, and the laugh track really drives it home.
 

Ravensmash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,797

NecroTechno

Member
Oct 25, 2017
296
geohell
There recently was a very interesting interview with Shon Faye in Them, and this exact question came up. One of the core reasons that came up as an explanation for why transphobia is so blatant in the UK is that, in contrast to the US where transphobia is a tool used very specifically by the right, plenty of visible TERFS are ostensibly seen as left-wing (an example being Germaine Greer). This has set the bar for trans discourse on both sides of the aisle very low.