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Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,958
Come on you know damn well you're trying to use antisemitism as a shield against people talking about Bernie's whiteness and him constantly being shit when it comes to race and racism.

I already said I disagreed with his messaging.

What I do not accept is that Jewish = white because it's untrue.

I have no problem with people being critical of what he said - that's fair because the optics were very poor on this.

But to call him a racist and use his 'whiteness' as proof is bullshit, especially when the man is Jewish.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
92,987

DorkLord54

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,465
Michigan
WTF did I say about Judaism?
...
Jewish isnt a race.

Their not calling him a WASP.
Judaism is a religion.

Bernie is white.
A) That has nothing to do with what he said.
B) You really shouldn't bring that up when you want to talk about the situation of Racism towards African Americans which has gone on since the start of the Transatlantic Slave trade until......TODAY.
All of these can come off as unintentionally casually antisemitic, and downplaying of the historical and contemporary discrimination that many Jews still experience, albeit - at least in an American context - at now very lessened rates, especially compared to African-American and Latinx individuals.
 

Boiled Goose

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
9,999
CategoriesNotRaces.png


So when they do the census every jewish person files as other?

Hmmm. I've never seen Hispanic separated as race like that before. Usually a separate question.
 

LGHT_TRSN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,120
I've already said I think Bernie fucked up here.

But the idea that Jewish = white is bullshit and there's plenty of history to back that up.

If you're cool with the reductive labeling that's fine but I'm not.

In the US, Bernie has absolutely been the benefit of white male privilege. His perception of racism in this country is closer to a white man than a black man. We can talk about historical context all we want but it's irrelevant when discussing this specific issue.

I say this as a white man with Jewish heritage. I have been the beneficiary of white male privilege. My last name makes makes my heritage abundantly obvious to anyone who knows what it is, but I am not going to be treated differently from strangers and police when I walk down the street, or go shopping, or drive in my car.

It's not reductionist to say that this comment comes from a place of white privilege because it absolutely does.
 
Oct 26, 2017
11,031
Because it's not like Bernie Sanders ran on a platform that was much better than the average Democrats when it comes to the issues people of color face in this society in 2016.

People here are arguing as if the only thing that matters in politics are your statements in interviews and not your platform and policies.
As a politician, your statements are absolutely important regardless of your policy statements. Canidate policies are crafted to appeal to parts of the public. Interviews show the character of people.
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
What an incredibly stupid thing to say. I like Bernie, but he has a way of putting his foot into his mouth. Unfortunately, he is the leftmost possible candidate for 2020; much closer to my kind of politics than anyone else.

But, I've learned a while ago to not hold my faith in people, but in ideas. People will always say or do something dumb or bigoted, but ideas are more resilient. Progressives aren't being propped up by a single man or a select few. We are propped up by just and sorely needed ideals such as Medicare For All, free tuition, and higher minimum wages and so on. I say that we should push those rather than people.
 

Skippy

Alt-Account
Member
Oct 8, 2018
132
It was a pretty stupid thing to say, but I think he is just saying something very ineloquently rather than saying its not racist to be uncomfortable voting for a black person.

He's basically saying those people, who are not usually racist, are now uncomfortable voting for a person of color due to racist attacks. He's commenting on how people can be made racist by racist rhetoric.
 

Whompa

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,254
It was a pretty stupid thing to say, but I think he is just saying something very ineloquently rather than saying its not racist to be uncomfortable voting for a black person.

He's basically saying those people, who are not usually racist, are now uncomfortable voting for a person of color due to racist attacks. He's commenting on how people can be made racist by racist rhetoric.

Bingo!
 

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,958
In the US, Bernie has absolutely been the benefit of white male privilege. His perception of racism in this country is closer to a white man than a black man. We can talk about historical context all we want but it's irrelevant when discussing this specific issue.

I say this as a white man with Jewish heritage. I have been the beneficiary of white male privilege. My last name makes makes my heritage abundantly obvious to anyone who knows what it is, but I am not going to be treated differently from strangers and police when I walk down the street, or go shopping, or drive in my car.

It's not reductionist to say that this comment comes from a place of white privilege because it absolutely does.

I never said it doesn't.

Again, my problem is equating white with Jewish because clearly, the racists differentiate.
 
Dec 12, 2017
4,652
What an incredibly stupid thing to say. I like Bernie, but he has a way of putting his foot into his mouth. Unfortunately, he is the leftmost possible candidate for 2020; much closer to my kind of politics than anyone else.

But, I've learned a while ago to not hold my faith in people, but in ideas. People will always say or do something dumb or bigoted, but ideas are more resilient. Progressives aren't being propped up by a single man or a select few. We are propped up by just and sorely needed ideals such as Medicare For All, free tuition, and higher minimum wages and so on. I say that we should push those rather than people.
Then you'd be just as complicit in not caring about black issues as Bernie has been. This type of statement should bother you immensely if you're so left-leaning. This might the most centrist, moderate statement made by any of the potential 2020 candidates.
 

Soundscream

Member
Nov 2, 2017
9,229
...



All of these can come off as unintentionally casually antisemitic, and downplaying of the historical and contemporary discrimination that many Jews still experience, albeit - at least in an American context - at now very lessened rates, especially compared to African-American and Latinx individuals.
*Trump Voice*
"Im the least antisemitic person youve ever met."

I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood. My closest freinds have all been Jews. Ive been to multiple bar mitzvahs. Ive been a part of more Jewish religious cerimonies then I have Christian.

You might have percived it as being antisemitic, but it wasn't.
 

-COOLIO-

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,125
holy overreaction era. i just read this as "there's unique challenges and hinderances that a black president would have to overcome that a white president would not, thus some voters might have been a reluctant to vote for a black president despite them personally not having any racist beliefs."
 

Boiled Goose

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
9,999
I don't know why we are discussing Jewishness and whiteness.

If you wanted to give Sanders some benefit of the doubt, you can see from his comments about anti-Semitism that he is using a (too) high bar for those terms.

It was anti-Semitism. It is racism.

He definitely has a lot more of a hopeful outlook than many right now. Maybe that's a positive. Maybe it's naive. Dunno
 
Dec 12, 2017
4,652
holy overreaction era. i just read this as "there's unique challenges and hinderances that a black president would have to overcome that a white president would not, thus some voters might have been a reluctant to vote for a black president despite them personally not having any racist beliefs."
How could you possible read it that way? Especially after his follow up???
 

Ukraine

Banned
Jun 1, 2018
2,182
It was a pretty stupid thing to say, but I think he is just saying something very ineloquently rather than saying its not racist to be uncomfortable voting for a black person.

He's basically saying those people, who are not usually racist, are now uncomfortable voting for a person of color due to racist attacks. He's commenting on how people can be made racist by racist rhetoric.
He got a chance to correct himself and he didn't. The way he said it even if he didn't "mean" it is extremely hurtful to the society. It excuses the purest form of racism. I've said it multiple times, and I truly believe it. Bernie's statement is worse than Trump's "both sides" because Bernie didn't leave any ambiguity. He said it's OK to be racist.
 

DorkLord54

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,465
Michigan
In the US, Bernie has absolutely been the benefit of white male privilege. His perception of racism in this country is closer to a white man than a black man. We can talk about historical context all we want but it's irrelevant when discussing this specific issue.

I say this as a white man with Jewish heritage. I have been the beneficiary of white male privilege. My last name makes makes my heritage abundantly obvious to anyone who knows what it is, but I am not going to be treated differently from strangers and police when I walk down the street, or go shopping, or drive in my car.

It's not reductionist to say that this comment comes from a place of white privilege because it absolutely does.
Not to mention this isn't the first time Bernie has had a problem when it comes to black issues. Dude definitely has a blind spot when it comes to race, and it's one of the reasons that I don't want him running in 2020 along with his age. We need someone who realises that, while economic inequality does disproportionately affect black folks, it's not a panacea, as a) racism and the attitudes associated with it predate capitalism by a century, and b) there are issues that mostly-if-not-entirely affect black people that need to be addressed, and a one-size-fits-all approach won't fix.
*Trump Voice*
"Im the least antisemitic person youve ever met."

I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood. My closest freinds have all been Jews. Ive been to multiple bar mitzvahs. Ive been a part of more Jewish religious cerimonies then I have Christian.

You might have percived it as being antisemitic, but it wasn't.
I don't think you are, and I do know where your frustration is coming from when dealing with Tetra since it's the same sort of shit you see from people defending Israel policy and using antisemitism as a cudgel despite it being completely unrelated to the critique.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
92,987
It was a pretty stupid thing to say, but I think he is just saying something very ineloquently rather than saying its not racist to be uncomfortable voting for a black person.

He's basically saying those people, who are not usually racist, are now uncomfortable voting for a person of color due to racist attacks. He's commenting on how people can be made racist by racist rhetoric.
What does it say about a person that hears "That man is a monkey because he is black" and decides to agree with it and use it as a reason not to vote for that person?
 

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,958
*Trump Voice*
"Im the least antisemitic person youve ever met."

I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood. My closest freinds have all been Jews. Ive been to multiple bar mitzvahs. Ive been a part of more Jewish religious cerimonies then I have Christian.

You might have percived it as being antisemitic, but it wasn't.

To be fair, even though we argued, I don't think you or anyone else was even remotely antisemitic.

I just think pretending Jews are the same as other whites is problematic.
 

Enzom21

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,989
I already said I disagreed with his messaging.

What I do not accept is that Jewish = white because it's untrue.

I have no problem with people being critical of what he said - that's fair because the optics were very poor on this.

But to call him a racist and use his 'whiteness' as proof is bullshit, especially when the man is Jewish.
No it's not untrue, he is Jewish and white. You are trying to use him being Jewish to erase that he is white.
He is Jewish but he is still white and can certainly take advantage of being white. He also most certainly participates in the same nonsense other white people participate in, this thread is an example of that.
Who are you to tell people who is or isn't a racist? You're doing the same thing Bernie did.
 
OP
OP
excelsiorlef

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,315
holy overreaction era. i just read this as "there's unique challenges and hinderances that a black president would have to overcome that a white president would not, thus some voters might have been a reluctant to vote for a black president despite them personally not having any racist beliefs."

...

WHAT
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
Then you'd be just as complicit in not caring about black issues as Bernie has been. This type of statement should bother you immensely if you're so left-leaning. This might the most centrist, moderate statement made by any of the potential 2020 candidates.
Kind of hard for me to not care about black issues when I'm black myself. And it does bother me immensely. I do not like what he said and think it's icnredibly stupid.
 

Ukraine

Banned
Jun 1, 2018
2,182
holy overreaction era. i just read this as "there's unique challenges and hinderances that a black president would have to overcome that a white president would not, thus some voters might have been a reluctant to vote for a black president despite them personally not having any racist beliefs."
EVEN if one would accept this interpretation it's still pretty racist thing to so. You are literally making a decision base on the color of the skin. Kind of definition of racism.
 

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,958
Not to mention this isn't the first time Bernie has had a problem when it comes to black issues. Dude definitely has a blind spot when it comes to race, and it's one of the reasons that I don't want him running in 2020 along with his age. We need someone who realises that, while economic inequality does disproportionately affect black folks, it's not a panacea, as a) racism and the attitudes associated with it predate capitalism by a century, and b) there are issues that mostly-if-not-entirely affect black people that need to be addressed, and a one-size-fits-all approach won't fix.

Setting aside his age I still think he'd be a fantastic president but I do agree with you that his belief that economics alone will cure racism is flawed.

That is, admittedly, a very fair point.
 

Soundscream

Member
Nov 2, 2017
9,229
To be fair, even though we argued, I don't think you or anyone else was even remotely antisemitic.

I just think pretending Jews are the same as other whites is problematic.
The reason I said that was because of my experince growing up in a very Jewish community. While they all Identified as Jews, they never denied that they are white when we had conversations about race.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,405
That's the problem plenty of posters, including some black posters, have with the thread. The larger point is more important than how something was phrased to get there. The point about the kind of candidates Gillum and Abrams were and the racist dog whistles used against Gillum are what many of us find most important. The implication that he's racist is so far gone.

I think many here agree, and many of us were posting together about, what people like DeSantis were trying to pull here in Florida. I voted for Gillum in the primary and general and saw the attempts, and I know the geography of the state, and I know what DeSantis and Trump were trying to do to him. Similar to how the caravan has now vanished from the conversation now that elections are over. That's the main point, and that's why he's saying the campaigns were racist and tried to play on that.
You're just giving me a more long winded version. Stop talking about which of Bernie's points is more important. This thread is about one and NOT the other.

The thread is about Bernie saying VOTERS who don't want to vote for a POC aren't necessarily racist.

In the same talk he talks about the GOP running racist campaigns.

THESE ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

STOP IT.

SHUT THE FUCK UP AND STOP IT.

How many fucking times does it have to be said without you robots responding with another long-winded ass story about how racist the gop campaigns were? What the fuck is wrong with you guys?
 
Last edited:

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,746
Some pretty racist Trump supporters were pretty happy to vote for Obama in 2008 or 2012.
Having a problem with voting for someone because the candidate is black is hardcore racism, no 2 ways about it.
 

-COOLIO-

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,125
User Warned: Inflammatory comparison
EVEN if one would accept this interpretation it's still pretty racist thing to so. You are literally making a decision base on the color of the skin. Kind of definition of racism.
that isn't the definition though. this is the definition:

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

by your definition, affirmative action would be racism.
 

Ukraine

Banned
Jun 1, 2018
2,182
that isn't the definition though. this is the definition:

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

by your definition, affirmative action would be racism.
It's literally prejudice. Like, how are you confused about this? If you don't vote for somebody only because of their skin color that's prejudice.
 

DorkLord54

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,465
Michigan
that isn't the definition though. this is the definition:

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

by your definition, affirmative action would be racism.
Even if they don't realise it, implicit racial bias is still racism, albeit of a different kind than the out-and-out racism of the KKK and the Pepe band.

And affirmative action isn't racist by that definition since it doesn't see minority groups as superior, but is a corrective measure for centuries of inequality that needs to be addressed.
 

Stardestroyer

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,819
Remind me again why this fuckwit is so popular?
He appeals to issues that affects white progressives, which doesn't include minorities. He is a populist and opportunist.

Even if they don't realise it, implicit racial bias is still racism, albeit of a different kind than the out-and-out racism of the KKK and the Pepe band.

And affirmative action isn't racist by that definition since it doesn't see minority groups as superior, but is a corrective measure for centuries of inequality that needs to be addressed.

(not directed at your point).
I would argue that implicit racist is far more damaging than explicit. Implicit racial bias fuels systematic racism. People use the fact that they aren't explicit like the KKK to assume that their views aren't racist. Those insidious types are far more scary than KKK.
 

Deleted member 835

User requested account deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,660
This thread is basically white people saying what he said aint that bad or turning it into "Bernie aint a white guy he white Jewish". This is why America has such a problem
 

EdibleKnife

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7,723
that isn't the definition though. this is the definition:

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

by your definition, affirmative action would be racism.
Just like desegregation, affirmative action isn't racism. It's literally in place due to the implicit racial bias of the American system where if white people aren't convinced to work with minorities they'd choose not to. It's not fueled by discrimination or oppressive ideals but about forcing equality into an unequal society.
 

TalonJH

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,860
Louisville, KY
that isn't the definition though. this is the definition:

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

by your definition, affirmative action would be racism.
Not voting for someone because of their race but being okay with voting for someone who is their race is literally the definition you just posted.
 

Enzom21

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,989
People want to bounce on grandpa Bernie's knee.
I think a good portion of it is him and Trump being two sides of the same coin.
Trump appeals to conservative whiteness, Sanders appeals to "liberal" whiteness.
Trump uses racism as a tool, Sanders ignores it outright.
That's why it wasn't so difficult for some of his supporters to jump on the Trump train.
 
Dec 12, 2017
4,652
If Bernie meant "Well meaning people can be impacted by hate campaigns", well it's true. It sucks and I think its a pretty controversial stance.
Yes, but saying that people who don't vote for a man or woman because they are uncomfortable with their race aren't racist is absurd. Hate campaigns can't affect you if you're racist. He should at the least stay Independent.