They aren't the ones disassociating the dances from their source though, Epic did that. When the kids are doing those dances in the stands they are doing them because they saw them in Fortnite, and the ESPN commentators are recognizing that.
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"Fortnite Dances" is Cultural Erasure. Straight Up.
- Thread starter DigitalOp
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It does when, again, a lot of the industry comes from Asia, which isn't 'white'. And this isn't justifying anything. Most of the characters people on here broadstroke as 'white' are not seen that way in Japan. I understand the need for more black people, but saying it's because most people are white is just factually untrue unless Asians are considered 'white' around here.
OP, you gotta talk to the folks in a language they understand......a Key & Peele sketch from Youtube.
In this sketch Jordan Peele's character (Guy on the left) represents the dance originator and Keegan-Michael Key's character (Guy on the right) represents Fortnite.
(Sketch ends @4:22..rest is a sizzle reel)
"I wish I was High on Potenuse" is the dancing, if that wasn't clear. Gotta be clear for some.
People want credit because that allows them to obtain future opportunities that furthers their careers and/or popularity. It's not about getting paid from Epic directly, but getting paid from some other company/person who recognizes them from Fortnite. Once they get that figurative foot in the door people will be more receptive to supporting their next project.
In this sketch Jordan Peele's character (Guy on the left) represents the dance originator and Keegan-Michael Key's character (Guy on the right) represents Fortnite.
(Sketch ends @4:22..rest is a sizzle reel)
"I wish I was High on Potenuse" is the dancing, if that wasn't clear. Gotta be clear for some.
People want credit because that allows them to obtain future opportunities that furthers their careers and/or popularity. It's not about getting paid from Epic directly, but getting paid from some other company/person who recognizes them from Fortnite. Once they get that figurative foot in the door people will be more receptive to supporting their next project.
Just gonna quote myself from the last time this was brought up
I sense exaggeration. "White kids" dancing "black dances" is whitewashing now ? It feels like a step too far.
I see what you mean. I agree it's still ultimately Epic's fault. Sports coverage is just where I've noticed the effect of the disassociation the most. If Cam Newton started dabbing a few years later I'm sure the commentators would just point out he's doing "a Fortnite thing".
Right, but there really isn't anything you can do about that. I mean people know All Star as the Shrek song because that's how young people today first heard it, they may not know anything about the band Smash Mouth. Even if Epic did acknowledge the creators of the dances what you are describing would still happen. At some level these things are inevitable, but Epic giving credit where it's due would be better than the status quo. You can give people the information but you can't force them to care.
I'm not sure why everyone is saying people don't care because it's just black culture. Most people just don't care regardless of which culture it comes from. Especially the "white kids".
If anything fortnite made people more aware of the dances origins. Those videos where huge on YouTube and a popular talking point between a lot of people. My 10 year old son was telling me about where these dances started from. He astually learned who Carlton was because of the game. Even showed him a couple episodes of fresh prince. I would've never knew about backpack kid if it wasn't for Fortnite. These people are getting more exposure because of fortnite IMO. Just not getting the $ for it, which is almost impossible to copyright
If anything fortnite made people more aware of the dances origins. Those videos where huge on YouTube and a popular talking point between a lot of people. My 10 year old son was telling me about where these dances started from. He astually learned who Carlton was because of the game. Even showed him a couple episodes of fresh prince. I would've never knew about backpack kid if it wasn't for Fortnite. These people are getting more exposure because of fortnite IMO. Just not getting the $ for it, which is almost impossible to copyright
Outside of the whole race thing and more on track with the OP:
I feel like a lot of people are confusing willful ignorance for cultural erasure. You can easily look up where these dances came from and find far more sources that point outside of fortnite than ones that point to it. Those who are ignorant enough to call them "fortnite dances" don't give a single fuck (aka are willfully ignorant) of their actual origin. Cultural erasure implies that someone is trying to hide the fact that they originated outside of fortnite in order to secure fortnite as it's origin, and that is not what's happening.
Having said that, Epic should definitely try to at least give props somewhere, even if it's just in the credits. Better than nothing.
This post sums up what I'm trying to say here pretty well.
I feel like a lot of people are confusing willful ignorance for cultural erasure. You can easily look up where these dances came from and find far more sources that point outside of fortnite than ones that point to it. Those who are ignorant enough to call them "fortnite dances" don't give a single fuck (aka are willfully ignorant) of their actual origin. Cultural erasure implies that someone is trying to hide the fact that they originated outside of fortnite in order to secure fortnite as it's origin, and that is not what's happening.
Having said that, Epic should definitely try to at least give props somewhere, even if it's just in the credits. Better than nothing.
This post sums up what I'm trying to say here pretty well.
Ok I don't want to derail this topic and I might just make a thread about it to be honest.
But how do they explain viewing that characters as Asian when most have western names and the latest game straight up introduced Not-Japan?
I'm honestly not trying to be dismissive I find the idea of nationality of animated characters kinda fascinating.
You blatantly mis-quoted a post you actually quoted, he's saying give. the artists. a shoutout.
I don't agree with the bolded, even if you seem to agree with what I'm saying. Fortnite is not acknowledging the origin of the dances outside of Fortnite, they are severing the connection by changing the names and not giving any sort of credit. If you watch the credits for Shrek the film itself tells you who made the song All Star. Fortnite isn't doing that, and that is a problem.
Culture moves from group to group. Aspects of your culture will become part of others and altered. Culture is fluid and by nature is never concrete. If you want to see it as being stolen and basterdized that's your choice. Pretty miserable world view though. Do you want white kids to give a speech thanking a dozen different black artists everything they are about to dance? Should black musicians give props to the white people whom created certain instruments they play? Ridiculous. Culture isn't yours and it never will be. You can fight it, try to keep it "pure" but you will lose every time. All that being said when it comes to a big company taking aspects of culture yeah Fortnite has no legal precedent to give props, dances aren't copyrighted. It would be a nice gesture to acknowledge the creators in game though. But it's not a necessity.
That has to do with blackface not having the same negative history as here in the US. Not them being racist. This is actually true worldwide.
All star is a song not a dance. Different medium different rules.
Disagree. I see where you coming from but I will be disagreeing. Its impossible for me to convey what I'm saying so that you can relate.
I just mean that the industry is as a whole. Yes maybe in Japan they dont see it like that but in the west its different. Doesnt matter where you live, Europe, NA, SA, Africa. Dont matter.
There is a BIG gap between telling other races not to do dances or dress a certain way and being disappointed a corporation is taking something, changing the name to avoid giving credit, and slapping a price tag on it.
I didn't misquote anything, it's a straight line from the OP, which is why I commented. And I fully agree with you in that original artists should always be mentioned, whatever the circumstance.
I didn't disagree with that in my post. Thats why I said it would be nice of Epic to give a shout out. But they legally don't have to. Morally it's scummy but no action can really be taken to change their mind other than criticism. The original dancers have no legal grounds to sue but them being peeved is understandable. Hence the current situation.
I think it'd be neat if each dance emote had a couple of lines talking about what inspired it/where it came from on the selection screen. Wouldn't hurt for people (kids especially) to learn a little something about the dances they seem to like so much.
Not sure how good of an idea it'd be from a legal perspective, though.
Not sure how good of an idea it'd be from a legal perspective, though.
The industry as a whole is at least 1/3 Asian. It matter to Japan since they're the one who made the characters and they can viewed them as they liked without us westerns telling them what color their characters are.
The analogy with shrek was trying to say that even if they had credit written out in the credits of fortnite (first of all, who'd actually look through the credits of fortnite?), the majority would still call it the fortnite dance because of willful ignorance. Anyone who actually cares or wants to know where the dance came from will look it up and find out as that information has not been erased.
Again, having said that, I still think EPIC should give credit to the originators of the dance. Unfortunately, because of the way that laws are about these sort of things go, it is easier to steal the dance and not give credit than to give credit.
I already told you Im not soeaking literally. OP even clarified it several posts aboves. For you too, you simply do not understand what I'm saying.
OK, I will give you a western example to try and explain how this works. Let's take Legolas from the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Here's a picture:Ok I don't want to derail this topic and I might just make a thread about it to be honest.
But how do they explain viewing that characters as Asian when most have western names and the latest game straight up introduced Not-Japan?
I'm honestly not trying to be dismissive I find the idea of nationality of animated characters kinda fascinating.
Now, obviously we know that this is a white man in our world, Orlando Bloom, but for the purposes of the film he is playing Legolas, who is an Elf. Elves don't exist in our reality, but we know Legolas is white because the actor that plays him is white, and the fiction he exists in is a product of White, European culture (Tolkein) and he has white features. Legolas isn't a common European name, Legolas's native language is Elvish, which doesn't exist in reality, etc. but you could generally accept that he's white for the reasons stated above, right?
Now let's look at Marth. Here's a picture:
So let's apply the same thinking here. In Japan, his name is "マルス", or "Marusu" by Hepburn romanization. So for starters the way we know his name (as Marth) is already a western localization, a change to make his name easier to pronounce in the west. Now look at his features...they are anime-esque, right? Which is a product of Japanese culture, not white western culture. What language does Marth speak in his original voiced appearance? Japanese, and he is played by Hikaru Midorikawa, a Japanese actor. It's irrelevant that the fictional place Marth is from is based upon western societies, because its being portrayed through a Japanese lens.
Obviously Marth has an English name and an English voice actor, but those are things that originate in the localization of the work, not the original creation of it.
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It's tough and I understand why they don't do it, because it would lead to a whole series of other problems, from the creators looking for proper compensation for their work to the inevitable controversies over misattributing emotes. From a business perspective doing nothing is the right thing to do, a few people complaining about it on the internet will never put even a 1% dent into what it will make. It's shitty but that's the nature of viral meme culture in the 21st century. Unless you go out of your way to copyright your work, other people will disseminate it, change it, and profit off of it.
More accurate names would be nice because there are many dances that do have an accurate name. I'm not really sold on the concern that the origins of the dances are going to be swept away though. The world is more connected than ever, taking the top 3 videos gives you almost 50 million views.
OK, I will give you a western example to try and explain how this works. Let's take Legolas from the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Here's a picture:
Now, obviously we know that this is a white man in our world, Orlando Blook, but for the purposes of the film he is playing Legolas, who is an Elf. Elves don't exist in our reality, but we know Legolas is white because the actor that plays him is white, and the fiction he exists in is a product of White, European culture (Tolkein) and he has white features. Legolas isn't a common European name, Legolas's native language is Elvish, which doesn't exist in reality, etc. but you could generally accept that he's white for the reasons stated above, right?
Now let's look at Marth. Here's a picture:
So let's apply the same thinking here. In Japan, his name is "マルス", or "Marusu" by Hepburn romanization. So for starters the way we know his name (as Marth) is already a western localization, a change to make his name easier to pronounce in the west. Now look at his features...they are anime-esque, right? Which is a product of Japanese culture, not white western culture. What language does Marth speak in his original voiced appearance? Japanese, and he is played by Hikaru Midorikawa, a Japanese actor. It's irrelevant that the fictional place Marth is from is based upon western societies, because its being portrayed through a Japanese lens.
Obviously Marth has an English name and an English voice actor, but those are things that originate in the localization of the work, not the original creation of it.
I guess I can see that.
I guess it doesn't help that I've been playing Persona, since that takes place in the real world the nationality of characters is made a bit easier to grasp.
Thanks for the reply.
I mean I think you are trying to tie in lack of representation for black people from Japanese games into a broad idea of "whiteness" that is prevalent across cultures, even non-white ones. I guess I'm trying to say that Japanese culture is responsible for its own issues with portraying race, you don't need to attribute their racist portrayals or lack of representation to the west.
Epic is not giving credit though, which is the entire crux of the issue. No one is asking white kids to stop dancing the dances they see in Fortnite, they are asking Fortnite to acknowledge the source.
No, Japanese portrayals of black people are often still racist. The negative connotation is not acknowledged there because there are hardly any black people there to speak out about the negative history of blackface. The blackface still carries a negative connotation and is offensive to black people, which is what matters when determining what is and is not racist.
You'd likely have to pay them. Nobody's representation is gonna let their client's stuff get referenced in a way that can be profited from get used without actually profiting from it.
It's not the answer that sounds nice, but monetization just isn't happening. You'd have to get dances out of the copyright class to see more credit being given. Similar to how parodies are always okay, so that's how you get Weird Al doing songs where he explicitly asks for permission and credits people that he parodies. He doesn't have to, and when he does, he doesn't have to pay. Then it'd just come down to which artists wanna be Coolio with their dances and which ones wanna be Chamillionaire (the former being pissed about Amish Paradise due to a mixup about him giving Weird Al permission, and the latter being super into the parody of his song, even though he admits that he's had people tell him they thought White and Nerdy was the original and he was doing the parody lol).
Or sue and win a case that argues even changing the name isn't enough to dodge copyright. Though in that scenario, game developers probably patch out all but the most popular reference dances and then go in-house for stuff like that. Black people should get to decide which path these things go around their cultural output, but I just wanted to lay out what those paths probably are.
It's so true. If I'm online and people automatically assume I'm white until told otherwise, that's a problem.
Gaming is a white, straight male paradise, mentally, and almost physically that also absorbs people of other ethnicities into the nasty hateful racist things that were thought to be exclusive to white people.
Did I hurt anyone's feelings by saying that?
Interesting I wonder if Blizzard paid him for the Male Goblin Dance in World of Warcraft.
No problem. This is a tricky subject in general, but I think the best way to navigate it is to listen to the people whose cultures are being represented.
Yes, I agree with this as well. We shouldn't forget the roots.
OP
OP
Breaking and BBoys didn't originate from the late 70's NY Scene in the Bronx?
Hmm
I don't feel like this is cultural erasure so much as it's the nature of the internet making almost everything up for grabs (regardless of whether or not you can make money off of it). It's not just rapper dances, but also memes using copyrighted material, YouTube Let's Plays, or 99% of the avatars on here (mine included).
Yeah. I generally just try to read them and try to understand the perspectives of people in them, because I really don't feel like I get them right off, given my different perspective. But I've had enough like, friends and relatives and acquaintances and things to understand the concept that my perspective will usually (at first) prevent me from getting stuff right away.
Sometimes I get frustrated because I want to try to explain why either side is either not understanding the other or being disingenuous, or whatever, but I feel like usually that just turns into an argument because it's hard to parse who is honestly invested in understanding and who is interested in pushing their perspective. Oh well. Sorry if I implied any hostility.
Something that occurs me...
We're just talking about credit here. Not money. Just credit, giving credit where credit's due. That's all.
But nonetheless, you have people reaching to the stars and the moon and beyond about how "but can you REALLY be sure that they invented that dance? Isn't their work just based on or taken from people who came before them? How can we really now?"
And what I'm thinking about is huh, what if we used that logic for the credits of the game itself? "Oh, you say your a programmer for this game, sir but did you actually INVENT C++? Did you invent Java? How can you REALLY say your a programmer, when you're just using stuff from people who came before you. All of those programmers ultimately are just like taking code from each other and it all just blends together and it's not like anyone's truly making their own unique languages or anything, so why should any of these programmers be credited? It's just a slippery slp
Or for 3D modeling or art positions, you wouldn't actually have anyone going "yeah, I see what you did there, but did you invent Blender? Did you come up with Photoshop? We're all just taking stuff from each other and not doing our own thing, so how's giving credit to anyone make any sense?" or anything like that.
Because obviously, that would just be flat out ridiculous. All that matters is that you are an actual developer, who actually worked in the game. As long as that's the case, you belong in the credits. That's what pretty much everyone would agree to, right? You don't need to have done the entire thing by yourself, it doesn't matter if your work is based on the contributions of others or not, all that matters is that you're a dev and you worked on the game, and nothing else matters, right?
So why do different standards suddenly apply with stuff like these dances? Why is that when people suddenly go, "well, actually, how can we be sure anyone truly even invented any dance to begin with" and all that shit? Just like with who worked on the game and who didn't, you know what people mean when they say credit should be given where credit's due. It's not complicated. So why the sudden reluctance, as if it's any more complicated or should be than giving all the developers who worked on the game itself their proper due, without reaching to the starts about how so much code is just built on or taken from other code, or how the artist didn't invent the concept of illustration and all artwork is based on other artwork and there's no original ideas in art, or anything like that.
Why's it suddenly pop up here of all places? Why do people make it anymore complicated than just giving credit where credit's due, ala the credits of the game itself? Really disheartening that so many people are looking for any possible excuse to wiggle out of that here and employ as many mental gymnastics as they need to do so when they'd never pull that shit for well, pretty much anything else, but unfortunately not surprising at all.
Edit: Or hell, people don't like that argument? Fine. Then let's talk about, say, good ol' Bubsy for a second here. Using the arguments people are using to defend Epic not giving credit for the dances here, I could just as easily, say, well, what would be the problem with Epic putting Bubsy in Fortnite without giving credit, exact same design and everything, except they call him, let's say Robert or anything. It's all good right though since like Bubsy is just copying and riffing on other mascot platformers, so there's no need for Epic to give credit for Bubsy anyway. After all, there's just nothing original about him, he's just build on the work of those that came before and there's nothing original there at all, so no need to credit anyone. Should be just fine to take him and do whatever they want with him, as long as they don't actually call him Bubsy, right?
Or hell, forget about Bubsy even. What about Princess Peach? I mean, she's no more original than Cinderella or Snow White or Sleeping Beauty or a billion other fairy tale princesses. Not like there's anything special about here, she's just built on a billion idea that have been done before anyway and was just Nintendo themselves stealing stuff anyway. So there should be no problem with say Epic stealing her for Fortnite, just sticking her in there somewhere, same design as all, as long as they just change her name to like Princess Barbara or something, I dunno. Not like there's anything there anyway, Nintendo themselves just stole the idea for a princess character and you can't prove they didn't, so like it's all good, right?
Obviously, that shit is ridiculous. Nobody would ever have that shit, and for good reason. That type of thing would absolutely have to be credited no way around it. So why would the "Fortnite dances" ever be any different themselves? Why are people reaching to the stars and moon and beyond to justify shit they never would in any other context, including ones such as those? Just kind of baffling that people are going through such lengths and ridiculous hoops to justify not even so much as giving credit, something that would make sense in practically no other context and have you written off as insane if you tried it, but again, unfortunately very much not surprising at all.
We're just talking about credit here. Not money. Just credit, giving credit where credit's due. That's all.
But nonetheless, you have people reaching to the stars and the moon and beyond about how "but can you REALLY be sure that they invented that dance? Isn't their work just based on or taken from people who came before them? How can we really now?"
And what I'm thinking about is huh, what if we used that logic for the credits of the game itself? "Oh, you say your a programmer for this game, sir but did you actually INVENT C++? Did you invent Java? How can you REALLY say your a programmer, when you're just using stuff from people who came before you. All of those programmers ultimately are just like taking code from each other and it all just blends together and it's not like anyone's truly making their own unique languages or anything, so why should any of these programmers be credited? It's just a slippery slp
Or for 3D modeling or art positions, you wouldn't actually have anyone going "yeah, I see what you did there, but did you invent Blender? Did you come up with Photoshop? We're all just taking stuff from each other and not doing our own thing, so how's giving credit to anyone make any sense?" or anything like that.
Because obviously, that would just be flat out ridiculous. All that matters is that you are an actual developer, who actually worked in the game. As long as that's the case, you belong in the credits. That's what pretty much everyone would agree to, right? You don't need to have done the entire thing by yourself, it doesn't matter if your work is based on the contributions of others or not, all that matters is that you're a dev and you worked on the game, and nothing else matters, right?
So why do different standards suddenly apply with stuff like these dances? Why is that when people suddenly go, "well, actually, how can we be sure anyone truly even invented any dance to begin with" and all that shit? Just like with who worked on the game and who didn't, you know what people mean when they say credit should be given where credit's due. It's not complicated. So why the sudden reluctance, as if it's any more complicated or should be than giving all the developers who worked on the game itself their proper due, without reaching to the starts about how so much code is just built on or taken from other code, or how the artist didn't invent the concept of illustration and all artwork is based on other artwork and there's no original ideas in art, or anything like that.
Why's it suddenly pop up here of all places? Why do people make it anymore complicated than just giving credit where credit's due, ala the credits of the game itself? Really disheartening that so many people are looking for any possible excuse to wiggle out of that here and employ as many mental gymnastics as they need to do so when they'd never pull that shit for well, pretty much anything else, but unfortunately not surprising at all.
Edit: Or hell, people don't like that argument? Fine. Then let's talk about, say, good ol' Bubsy for a second here. Using the arguments people are using to defend Epic not giving credit for the dances here, I could just as easily, say, well, what would be the problem with Epic putting Bubsy in Fortnite without giving credit, exact same design and everything, except they call him, let's say Robert or anything. It's all good right though since like Bubsy is just copying and riffing on other mascot platformers, so there's no need for Epic to give credit for Bubsy anyway. After all, there's just nothing original about him, he's just build on the work of those that came before and there's nothing original there at all, so no need to credit anyone. Should be just fine to take him and do whatever they want with him, as long as they don't actually call him Bubsy, right?
Or hell, forget about Bubsy even. What about Princess Peach? I mean, she's no more original than Cinderella or Snow White or Sleeping Beauty or a billion other fairy tale princesses. Not like there's anything special about here, she's just built on a billion idea that have been done before anyway and was just Nintendo themselves stealing stuff anyway. So there should be no problem with say Epic stealing her for Fortnite, just sticking her in there somewhere, same design as all, as long as they just change her name to like Princess Barbara or something, I dunno. Not like there's anything there anyway, Nintendo themselves just stole the idea for a princess character and you can't prove they didn't, so like it's all good, right?
Obviously, that shit is ridiculous. Nobody would ever have that shit, and for good reason. That type of thing would absolutely have to be credited no way around it. So why would the "Fortnite dances" ever be any different themselves? Why are people reaching to the stars and moon and beyond to justify shit they never would in any other context, including ones such as those? Just kind of baffling that people are going through such lengths and ridiculous hoops to justify not even so much as giving credit, something that would make sense in practically no other context and have you written off as insane if you tried it, but again, unfortunately very much not surprising at all.
Soulja Boy seems to be misinterpreting current US copyright law. To my knowledge there is no legal precedent for such a thing. Theoretically, its possible they settled (highly doubtful), but that wouldn't be a legal standing.
OP
OP
Boom.
Its why I hate the word WOKE.
While it started as slang, its been horribly corporatized and watered down as it entered mass culture.
Now you find clothing and shirts with WOKE phrases printed on them and TV pundits trying hard to fit it in their verbiage.
Corporatization kills culture. Hip-Hop suffered to a degree, and Fortnite is doing the same.
I can probably explain it.
The song is called 'Crank Dat Soulja Boy'. The dance has the same name. The song is also inherently a dance song, as in the song exists to promote the dance. Thats the entire concept.
By Soulja Boy copywriting the song, it inherently protects the dance. Sharing the name is extra protection.
When it comes to the Shoot, thats just a dance. There is no song based around it. Its just a dance JB did to a random song he performs. So he can't copyright the dance solely.
Possible maybe if there was a song called "Hit The Shoot" and JB had that copywritten
Thank god im not the only one thinking hollywood have gotten worse.
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