"Fortnite Dances" is Cultural Erasure. Straight Up.

Gravy Boat said:

So the dances taken from Japanese artists, as an example, aren't "cultural erasure"?

What "a lot of posters" are outraged about has nothing to do with me. I'm asking why you and others are trying to turn this into a black specific issue when it's not. It's an issue yes, but it's not specific to black people. Fortnite should in some way try to credit the originators of these dances and emotes, or at least whoever the devs took the inspiration from, but that's not race specific.

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Perfect example. No you cannot. Because the Asian cultures are large homogeneous nations with well documented history. You can try to take a dance or element and claim it as your own, but people with enough access to information can find out easily if that is true or not.

TyrantGuardian said:

Who gives a fuck about dance moves? The OP as well as the post I quoted are talking about the broader context. Get real.

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And in which broader context black patent holders do not get to hold their patents?

DigitalOp said:

Put it like this..

Y'all will be quick to say Thomas Edison invented the lightbulb! and he did.... But your US Education didn't tell you that his lightbulb couldn't last a couple minutes without burning out.

It was Lewis Lattimore.... A Black inventor, who discovered and used the carbon filament that was incorporated into the lightbulb that your ass and mine has used until they finally replaced it with LED Blubs to this day.


I bet fucking 100$ none of you knew that shit. This is the shit Im talking about.


Lewis got washed out, and all credit was given to Edison

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Then your viewpoint is that textbooks in schools should be teaching history accurately to represent black people's contributions to America? I agree. But i fail to see how a fortnite dance lines up with that. You should have made a thread in a general context in the general section about whitewashing black contributions to society. Not tried to make it about fortnite dances, which is just silly and doesn't make anyone care about your actual point.

vestan said:

You're right OP and a bunch of condescending posters will tell you that it doesn't matter. It's impossible to get Epic sued over this but the artists absolutely fucking deserve some sort of recognition, especially because Epic is making millions of their dances.

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Agree but it's not cultural Appropriation. An individual created something and they should benefit from that

Staticneuron said:

Perfect example. No you cannot. Because the Asian cultures are large homogeneous nations with well documented history. You can try to take a dance or element and claim it as your own, but people with enough access to information can find out easily if that is true or not.

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How is it not just as easy to find out where the other dances came from?

Inuhanyou said:

Then your viewpoint is that textbooks in schools should be teaching history accurately to represent black people's contributions to America? I agree. But i fail to see how a fortnite dance lines up with that. You should have made a thread in a general context in the general section about whitewashing black contributions to society. Not tried to make it about fortnite dances, which is just silly and doesn't make anyone care about your actual point.

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they're ripping off dances and not giving the originators any credit.

DigitalOp said:

Keep ignoring that Black Americans have a long history of this happening to our creations.

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You're doing it again. I'm not ignoring that, I'm saying that's a completely separate issue to what the premise of this thread is. This specific issue, with Fortnite and the dances, isn't a black specific issue. Stop trying to assert that anyone who holds an opinion of "I don't care" does so because they don't care about the issues of black people.

DigitalOp said:

Can you watch the fucking video in the OP.

I didn't put it there for my health. It literally details all the things posters keep coming in here and hypothesizing and pondering about.

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Does the video explain why the guy who does the shoot doesnt credit the moves he uses?

Ughh, it is a dance.

I have never heard of MJ going out of his way to stop people from using all his iconic moves.
If MJ couldn't copyright/trademark his routines, ain't nobody can then.

I love to dance to Erasure.

Amazing band.

Oh wait....what?

honest_ry said:

I love to dance to Erasure.

Amazing band.

Oh wait....what?

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send me an angel.

DJ_Lae said:

Is cultural erasure the new term for cultural appropriation, just with added oomph?

I also don't see how having black staff at Epic makes the insertion of 'black' dances better. Some credit would be nice, but they're under no obligation to do so, and the different dances are pulled from all over, not just a single culture.

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They're two distinct concepts. I'm sure if you think about it, you can tell the difference. Fortnite is not appropriating - which is bad in and of itself - it's erasing by omission of credit and essentially categorising the dance as derivative not from its source but culture in general whilst not specifying the culture or anything of the sort.

This place is a Ship of Fools who gotta show A Little Respect.

;)

(Hitting the office soon, full loud Erasure for me for the next few hours)

DigitalOp said:

This is a gaming board and I made a thread about something happening in gaming

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Your getting too emotional. I'm saying the context in which you made the thread for the gaming side is really really reaching and does nothing help your underlying point. Because you get even people like me arguing about the validity of the surface level and not actually consuming the underlying point.

"fortnite dances are cultural erasure" is not a good example to highlight cultural erasure. And does a disservice to the seriousness of the issue

Crazy Izanagi said:

How is it not just as easy to find out where the other dances came from?

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How would you if they are not credit or attributed properly? That was kind of the point of the video in OP.

Gravy Boat said:

You're doing it again. I'm not ignoring that, I'm saying that's a completely separate issue to what the premise of this thread is. This specific issue, with Fortnite and the dances, isn't a black specific issue. Stop trying to assert that anyone who holds an opinion of "I don't care" does so because they don't care about the issues of black people.

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What you are misunderstanding, is that this is one of the methods, out of many, that has been used for hundreds of years to do this with a specific nation. If looking at each individual attempt you can shrug your shoulders and say it isn't that bad nor targeted, the truth of the matter is it is part of cumulative effect that is damaging. It has gone on for so long we can point to it as an example of erasure. If you are viewing this in the lense of a recent event or something only one game is doing, then you are not understanding the point being brought up.

Derachi said:

Every time I hear the phrase "the Fortnite dance" I die a little more inside. They really gotta do something.

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If it weren't for Fortnite most people wouldn't
know the dances. I agree the artist who created the dance should be credited but if there is no copyright, who legally owns a dance move?
Fortnite copies a lot of other IP's for it's skins. Eg. Ragnarok base skin is Kratos.

The dances are a copyright issue not a cultural erasure. If there is no legal ownership then Epic are free to use dances. If it weren't for Fortnite kids wouldn't be copying them, so...

Barry Sandwich said:

If it weren't for Fortnite most people wouldn't know the dances

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This is just blatantly untrue. Did you think Epic went out and found dances nobody knew of to put in their games? Just because you didn't know it doesn't mean no one knew it

wait.... is this thread about Fortnite (and other popular) games using dancemoves without crediting them..? or what is it?

DigitalOp said:

It. Hurts. Black. People. More. Due. To. Our. Long. History. With. This. Behavior.

Duele más a los negros debido a nuestra larga historia con este comportamiento

Es schmerzt Schwarze mehr aufgrund unserer langen Geschichte mit diesem Verhalten

私たちの長い歴史のために、この行動で黒人をもっと傷つける

Cela nuit aux Noirs davantage à cause de notre longue histoire avec ce comportement


Nobody is going outside and doing the ELAINE or the fucking CARLTON. They go outside and do the Shoot and the Milly Rock.
You're being disingenuous as FUCK right now.

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I'm not being disingenuous, you're completely missing what I'm saying. You have literally said in this thread that people who don't care about this issuel, don't care because 'Fuck black people'. I'm saying that's not the case but they care equally as little about all the dances in the game.

hanmik said:

wait.... is this thread about Fortnite (and other popular) games using dancemoves without crediting them..? or what is it?

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The OP is trying to make a real point about black cultural erasure in America, but for some reason made it about fortnite dances and the sources not getting proper credit, when pressed then expanded to all cultures, not just the black ones getting the proper credit, thus invalidating the actual issue at hand, which is specifically black cultural erasure.

newmoneytrash said:

This is just blatantly untrue. Did you think Epic went out and found dances nobody knew of to put in their games? Just because you didn't know it doesn't mean no one knew it

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Fortnite's biggest playerbase is kids. So yeah they likely won't know the Carlton dance, for example.

Also the way Epic have implemented dances and non-violent gesture communication in Fortnite is to be commended.

The issue here is whether an artist should be able to legally own and protect a dance move. It's not specific to one game or cultural group.

This is a very emotional thread, not touching this with a ten foot pole. Not going to tell people what to care about, I do find it fascinating if not a tad odd that this is such a heated issue for some and a complete shrug off for others ( most?)

It's interesting because Epic was suddenly thrust into this position by the shear fact that they made a game that no one in a million years would have thought successful. It was a fucking joke for years and years before it actually came out. They put in silly dances like dozens of games before it (particularly MMOs) and somehow the dances of this game became a thing. Doesn't matter how they got there, but it's certainly interesting. I'm not going to pretend to know how copyright works, but it would be cool to live in a world where people are properly credited, simple dance moves are not beholden to strict copyright etc etc. Whatever combination that can protect creativity while at the same time not erasing those who originally created it. Maybe we do and I just don't know, or maybe it's completely broken.

DigitalOp said:

Your trolling fucking sucks, thats why I ignored you.

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You can't answer the question.

It's not trolling. You wanna get big mad but you're not willing to actually engage with a different viewpoint.

Agar25 said:

This is a very emotional thread, not touching this with a ten foot pole. Not going to tell people what to care about, I do find it fascinating if not a tad odd that this is such a heated issue for some and a complete shrug off for others ( most?)

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I don't think a lot of white people, which I am, truly understand the concept of cultural appropriation or cultural erasure. That's not to say that everyone who disagrees with the OP is white, but I've just never noticed white people get upset about cultural appropriation or erasure. I don't know if it's truly possible to understand it unless you're a minority.

Inuhanyou said:

The OP is trying to make a real point about black cultural erasure in America, but for some reason made it about fortnite dances and the sources not getting proper credit, when pressed then expanded to all cultures, not just the black ones getting the proper credit, thus invalidating the actual issue at hand, which is specifically black cultural erasure.

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ok.. would have been an idea to frame the title and the OP a little bit different then.. I get it is an emotional topic.. but as a non American (living in nowhere land) it is sometimes hard to understand where people are coming from, and what the purpose of some stuff is.

Thanks for clarifying it though.

DigitalOp said:

Put it like this..

Y'all will be quick to say Thomas Edison invented the lightbulb! and he did.... But your US Education didn't tell you that his lightbulb couldn't last a couple minutes without burning out.

It was Lewis Lattimore.... A Black inventor, who discovered and used the carbon filament that was incorporated into the lightbulb that your ass and mine has used until they finally replaced it with LED Blubs to this day.


I bet fucking 100$ none of you knew that shit. This is the shit Im talking about.


Lewis got washed out, and all credit was given to Edison

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ehhhh that's not quite right, Lewis Latimer (you spelled his name wrong) actually worked for Thomas Edison (after the carbon filament which he created while working for Edison's rival Maxim) and he is indeed properly credited for inventing the method to create the carbon filament

did he invent the light bulb? no, but he did invent the part that made it work for 100+ years and is by no means erased from history

http://invention.si.edu/innovative-lives-lewis-latimer-1848-1928-renaissance-man

Barry Sandwich said:

Fortnite's biggest playerbase is kids. So yeah they likely won't know the Carlton dance, for example.

Also the way Epic have implemented dances and non-violent gesture communication in Fortnite is to be commended.

The issue here is whether an artist should be able to legally own and protect a dance move. It's not specific to one game.

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Whether a kid knows a dance before fortnight or not is irrelevant. The fact that they don't credit the origin of them in any way is the issue, and the way they claim ownership over something they have stolen

A child's cultural knowledge doesn't excuse Epic for acting this way

It's incredible the lengths people will go to to get offended about something... it's a dance

DigitalOp said:

It. Hurts. Black. People. More. Due. To. Our. Long. History. With. This. Behavior.

Duele más a los negros debido a nuestra larga historia con este comportamiento

Es schmerzt Schwarze mehr aufgrund unserer langen Geschichte mit diesem Verhalten

私たちの長い歴史のために、この行動で黒人をもっと傷つける

Cela nuit aux Noirs davantage à cause de notre longue histoire avec ce comportement


Nobody is going outside and doing the ELAINE or the fucking CARLTON. They go outside and do the Shoot and the Milly Rock.
You're being disingenuous as FUCK right now.

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Speak for yourself. I'd hit that Carlton first.

Nothing is getting erased OP. It's American culture. Black culture is a subculture of greater American culture. Greater meaning larger before anyone gets upset.

Emmert said:

I don't think a lot of white people, which I am, truly understand the concept of cultural appropriation or cultural erasure. That's not to say that everyone who disagrees with the OP is white, but I've just never noticed white people get upset about cultural appropriation or erasure. I don't know if it's truly possible to understand it unless you're a minority.

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Yeah I'm not engrossed at all with my Latino heritage so It doesn't bother me at the slightest. Though I do see where OP is coming from.

DigitalOp said:

Alright dude, tell me how to feel.

You got it.

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So you're saying that anyone who doesn't care about Fortnite not giving credit to the creators of the dances they use, is a racist who doesn't care about black people issues? Because that's all I'm disputing here.

Staticneuron said:

How would you if they are not credit or attributed properly? That was kind of the point of the video in OP.



What you are misunderstanding, is that this is one of the methods, out of many, that has been used for hundreds of years to do this with a specific nation. If looking at each individual attempt you can shrug your shoulders and say it isn't that bad nor targeted, the truth of the matter is it is part of cumulative effect that is damaging. It has gone on for so long we can point to it as an example of erasure. If you are viewing this in the lense of a recent event or something only one game is doing, then you are not understanding the point being brought up.

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I'm not missing anything, I'm disputed the idea that anyone who doesn't care about this issue is racist towards black people, because this specific issue isn't specific to black people.

I see we are doing this thread again and it doesn't go down any better then last time. No one wants to "copyright body moves" for christ sake. Maybe just acknoledge that here is an issue here worth talking about?

"There is a long history of this" doesn't even start to describe how every single time black artists created new forms of art when it comes to music it was adapted to make it sellable to white America over the course of the last houndred years.

Jazz, Blues, Soul, Rock'n'Roll, Funk, HipHop, Techno. You name it.

newmoneytrash said:

Whether a kid knows a dance before fortnight or not is irrelevant. The fact that they don't credit the origin of them in any way is the issue, and the way they claim ownership over something they have stolen

A child's cultural knowledge doesn't excuse Epic for acting this way

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Well... until they're taken to court and it's proven otherwise, individual dance moves by themselves are not copyrightable or ownable intellectual property, so Epic aren't doing anything wrong, legally. How are Epic then "claiming ownership"?

AkimbOb-omb said:

I see we are doing this thread again and it doesn't go down any better then last time. No one wants to "copyright body moves" for christ sake. Maybe just acknoledge that here is an issue here worth talking about?

"There is a long history of this" doesn't even start to describe how every single time black artists created new forms of art when it comes to music it was adapted to make it sellable to white America over the course of the last houndred years.

Jazz, Blues, Soul, Rock'n'Roll, Funk, HipHop, Techno. You name it.

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I think that's obvious. The question is, is fortnite dances the right topic to address that.

"black music really has gotten fucked when it comes to white culture appropriating our designs" is a much better conversation topic whether some fortnite dance is giving credit to some individual artist.

DigitalOp said:

.??

I should be able to 'shoot' in public without someone saying "HAHA, Its that dance from Fortnite!" Thats really fucking annoying to hear from white people.

...

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So black people don't annoy him when they call it a Fortnite dance, only white people annoy him? Or black people always acknowledge the original dance? Are the whites deliberately robbing this man of the recognition he deserves or are just ignorant unlike the blacks? It's difficult to piece this all together.

Inuhanyou said:

The OP is trying to make a real point about black cultural erasure in America, but for some reason made it about fortnite dances and the sources not getting proper credit, when pressed then expanded to all cultures, not just the black ones getting the proper credit, thus invalidating the actual issue at hand, which is specifically black cultural erasure.

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Fortnite dances is an exemple of appropriating black culture, repackage it and then calling it your own. Asking for all culture to be represented, while true and needed, doesn't undermine the point OP made because black culture in the US is intricately linked with broader US culture. You're equating the erasure of a "sub culture" to a foreign culture. The relation, history and reasoning between them aren't the same.

ShinySunny said:

Ughh, it is a dance.

I have never heard of MJ going out of his way to stop people from using all his iconic moves.
If MJ couldn't copyright/trademark his routines, ain't nobody can then.

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Because everyone is calling it the Moonwalk and everything is crediting MJ. It'll be like if MJ did it and then Justin Bieber or Justin Timberlake came around did the exact same move, called it something else and got credited for it.

Mass_Pincup said:

Fortnite dances is an exemple of appropriating black culture, repackage it and then calling it your own. Asking for all culture to be represented,while true and needed, doesn't undermine the point OP made because black culture in the US is intricately linked with broader US culture. Your equating the erasure of a "sub culture" to a foreign culture. The relation, history and reasoning aren't the same.

.

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I'm just going off of OP's trajectory, he seems to want to talk about all cultures, but also wants to make it about black folk specifically. Even i have a hard time following.

Reappropiating black culture for popular entertainment is as old as slavery.

Inuhanyou said:

I think that's obvious. The question is, is fortnite dances the right topic to address that.

"black music really has gotten fucked when it comes to white culture appropriating our designs" is a much better conversation topic whether some fortnite dance is giving credit to some individual artist.

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Is it though? Judging by a lot of replies in this thread we're not quite there.

DigitalOp said:

The fact that this is all you're concerned with, tells me what I need to know about how seriously you take this and whats important to you.

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Yes, not wanting to call people racists for not caring about an issue that isn't specific to one race is important. You're absurd if you genuinely think that the only reason people wouldn't care about this is because they don't care about black people issues. The overall issue that you're talking about, with Epic not crediting these creators, is a valid one but you're trying to turn it into white people hating black people, which is not what this issue is.