Okay, so this is a thread about copyright and crediting creators rather than anything else.
Piggybacking an agenda shouldn't be part of the discussion and would have provided much better and honest results.
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"Fortnite Dances" is Cultural Erasure. Straight Up.
- Thread starter DigitalOp
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Piggybacking an agenda shouldn't be part of the discussion and would have provided much better and honest results.
I need you to understand you're being childish and combative for no apparent reason.
Unfounded? How so? You haven't actually refuted anything I've said.
Explain why you consider my posts trolling? Cultural appropriation is a serious issue. I just dont really believe that replicating a few seconds of a dance routine - itself comprised of a number of moves from other routines - is a worthwhile example of it.
I'm not mad at you and theres no reason for you to be mad at me. It's just a debate. Why post it here if you dont want an actual discussion? If you just want to make clear how fucked you think this is with no actual engagement, write a blog.
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Sorry mate, that's your hypothetical I'm reading back to you. Your OP says "how many black people even work for epic". If your point wasn't "having lots of POC working for Epic would make this theft less egregious" then I'm sorry, you haven't made your points clear enough.
Still doesn't cover my original question of what does race have to do with theft.
Isn't that how every change starts? Because someone just say so (and other people think the same and follow)?
I never knew this dance move was "from Fortnite" (or from another person, in that regard). I only saw a lot of kids and were wondering where this "new shit" came from. I don't follow any news or anything related to Fortnite, though.
OP
OP
I didn't read the OP nor watch the video : The Post
I want you to engage me when Ive offered nothing of substance : The Post
Im going to ignore the relationship of the US and Black Culture : The Post
I completely agree with you OP - it really does seem a particularly disturbed form of appropriation because somehow the theft is more reductive in this context.
However I do have to disagree with one point: most acknowledge that there is very little American culture without African-American culture.
However I do have to disagree with one point: most acknowledge that there is very little American culture without African-American culture.
I've pretty clearly laid out why I dont think this is as serious an issue as you do, and why it's a touch hypocritical to be mad at epic whilst ignoring blocboy for doing something similar.
You can disagree, but you cant claim I'm not saying anything.
OP
OP
If you don't think its serious, I don't see why you're battling me over this. Move on? What you need? Validation?
Ive explained this shit 7 different times. I aint repeating myself. Go back and read the answers to these goddamn repeating questions.
MJ didn't create it though. He popularized a move done many decades before.
My bigger problem is that op just wants to shut down any rational discourse over this issue.
Most posters seem to agree that a small credit to the artists would be fine. Trying to turn this into some race issue is just counterproductive at best.
Unfortunately, pretty much. I find it very disappointing and disheartening that this thread has seemingly not been created in good faith.
Why do you feel the need to frame a discussion as a "battle"?
You decided to put your thoughts here in writing so why are you escalating shit sky high because people disagree with you?
Go write a blog and turn the comments off if you aren't interested in having a chat.
I'm English. And white. So why don't you help provide that context, since you obviously have it and I don't, to the discussion instead of posting stupid responses like this? I thought you wanted an actual discussion but your responses read like you aren't interested.
This is how the capitalism works.
And there are far worse uses of this cultural appropriation.
Like when politicians use oppressed minorities only to take a photo while they are in a campaign.
Or when magnates and millionaires try to pretend that they are defending the working class.
Great thread, OP.
This remembers me to one of my greatest musical idols, Ornette Coleman.
He understood that jazz wasn't only a style of music, but also a cultural movement to fight against the white dominance in the US mass media.
So when all the white musical critics embraced and praised jazz music, generally with easy-to-listen takes in the genre marketed for a "sophisticated" white class, he tried really hard to make as much noise as possible in a scenario, to horrify to this white elitist musical critic.
There is a great reading that I can recommend about this subject, 'New Thing', created by the Italian anarchist movement Wu Ming, in which all of the writers sign their work under the name of an anonymous collective.
The book is distributed through a Creative Commons license, but sadly, it's currently only available in Italian, Spanish and French. It will be great if it's translated to English in the future. It's one of the greatest love letters to the black culture and jazz music as a cultural movement to fight against the establishment, denouncing a lot of the crimes and atrocities of the CIA against the Black Phanter movement. Like poisoning the milk distributed by the movement in schools.
And there are far worse uses of this cultural appropriation.
Like when politicians use oppressed minorities only to take a photo while they are in a campaign.
Or when magnates and millionaires try to pretend that they are defending the working class.
Great thread, OP.
This remembers me to one of my greatest musical idols, Ornette Coleman.
He understood that jazz wasn't only a style of music, but also a cultural movement to fight against the white dominance in the US mass media.
So when all the white musical critics embraced and praised jazz music, generally with easy-to-listen takes in the genre marketed for a "sophisticated" white class, he tried really hard to make as much noise as possible in a scenario, to horrify to this white elitist musical critic.
There is a great reading that I can recommend about this subject, 'New Thing', created by the Italian anarchist movement Wu Ming, in which all of the writers sign their work under the name of an anonymous collective.
The book is distributed through a Creative Commons license, but sadly, it's currently only available in Italian, Spanish and French. It will be great if it's translated to English in the future. It's one of the greatest love letters to the black culture and jazz music as a cultural movement to fight against the establishment, denouncing a lot of the crimes and atrocities of the CIA against the Black Phanter movement. Like poisoning the milk distributed by the movement in schools.
This shit is disgusting and battle royale is a blight on gaming. My nephews are obsessed with the stupid Fortnite and have no idea about any other games
Why is that a bad thing though? Many people only play 1 game, or at the very least spend the majority of their gaming time on one game.
OP
OP
Yes, it involves black people. Sorry if that makes you uncomfortable since you know, those blacks always make it about race and everything.
"Discussion"
Was this a discussion? Or was all of this an attempt to say Im wrong and leave it at that.
"Give people credit"
BUT BUT THEN THEYLL HAVE TO PAY & LEGAL AND....
Not much to discuss after that.
Thats what the thread is for. Im not Sparknotes.
I disagree OP and this can be very dangerous if they start getting at people for dance moves. Is already a nightmare for music. Look at that fool Tim Langdell who tried to get at everyone for the word "EDGE" Any game that included that word was getting sued by him. I could imagine the nightmare of someone doing a dance in a battle and they got sued because they included an artist move into their routine. And if they win the prize they got to cut the check? Fuck no. Majority of moves are a variation of a previous one. Imagine if Vampires, Wolves, Zombies and so on were all copyrighted back then? A lot of mediums that people enjoy that include such characters would have not been created.
The entire gaming industry is built on ripping stuff off. Back when fortnite didn't steal anything at launch, not the battle royal mode, not the dances, it had some original ideas of it's own, but it was kinda a flop. FIFA used to suck until they decided to basically reverse engineer Pro Evo Soccer down to it's exact control scheme. Whatever team made Paladins didn't have much impact until they brought in an art team, or at least art director who had no qualms with completely and utterly jacking Overwatchs whole style and UI. It's kinda gross and undignified, but legally, what can you do?
At the same time though, I think creators of those dances should get some money from Epic, seems 'right'. I don't know if it's legal or whatever, but it seems fair. Then again a lot of the world isn't fair, and revolves around ripping stuff off, be it music, fashion, cellphones, whatever, and we lap it right up, jumping on amazon to save a few dollars by getting the rip-off version of a product. Maybe we should be more principled it what we buy/play/support, or maybe Fortnite could just volunteer to pay these people a token sum of money for some good PR (though I understand why they wouldn't for legal reasons).
At the same time though, I think creators of those dances should get some money from Epic, seems 'right'. I don't know if it's legal or whatever, but it seems fair. Then again a lot of the world isn't fair, and revolves around ripping stuff off, be it music, fashion, cellphones, whatever, and we lap it right up, jumping on amazon to save a few dollars by getting the rip-off version of a product. Maybe we should be more principled it what we buy/play/support, or maybe Fortnite could just volunteer to pay these people a token sum of money for some good PR (though I understand why they wouldn't for legal reasons).
What are you talking about?
I didnt say anything about "PAY & LEGAL".
Or are you simply admitting that you dont think there is a single valid reply here other than "Yeah OP nailed it"?
Jesus, are you honestly going to try and frame me as a racist because you don't want to have a rational discourse with some folks here?
Fucking poor showing from you OP.
Nothing here is making me uncomfortable other than your attitude and general dismissiveness toward good posts.
By all means, give credit where its due, but this isn't a race issue.
@OP did you know that the stadium chant used in every soccer game is actually a Seven Nation Army song.
This is what culture is about. You take something familiar and make it something new.
People are out there connecting and having fun in a time when every hates each other. And you try to slap their wrists.
This is what culture is about. You take something familiar and make it something new.
People are out there connecting and having fun in a time when every hates each other. And you try to slap their wrists.
OP
OP
Yes, Benita. This was all a ruse to generate shallow praise so I can hopefully be looked at as a Prominent ERA Member. You figured me out.
grrrr... Would have gotten away with it too if wasn't for you meddling kids.
Benita is not saying that; they are saying that you are bad at discourse. I would agree. If you want to have a discussion, OP, actually be prepared to actively discuss people's points rather than shutting them down. Maybe go look up Critical Thinking on Sparknotes.
Cultural moments like that can easily get meme'd the fuck out and drift further away from the source over time, so it's an understandable request to at least get credit before that happens. One minute you're known for a fire dance move. A year later it's replicated in hundreds of internet memes. Gradually it ends up as a gag in Big Bang Theory or Kung Fu Panda. Fortnite was shamelessly attempting go directly to the third phase of it very early on without even giving the artist who choreographed the dance a nod by including their song during the dance, so rightfully got called out over that.
EDIT: note since there seems to be a very passionate argument taking place ITT: I don't know the whole context of everything that's been said on either side of the debate because I've only read page one and this page, so keep in mind that I'm just dropping my own opinion in here based on that instead of arguing with or on behalf of someone else.
EDIT: note since there seems to be a very passionate argument taking place ITT: I don't know the whole context of everything that's been said on either side of the debate because I've only read page one and this page, so keep in mind that I'm just dropping my own opinion in here based on that instead of arguing with or on behalf of someone else.
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OP
OP
Again, Ive given more than enough view and insight all throughout the thread.
Its ironic as fuck everyone wants to accuse me of shutting down discourse and that behavior took place on Page 1.
Irony so thick, Ill spread it on my toast this morning.
The problem is, when someone disagrees with you, your immediate reaction is to try and paint them as a racist. That's fucked up.
The OP is not going to get it and he or she already has their mind made up. I posted something similar. Great video BTW.
If you're so sure that you've responded to their points, at least point us toward your posts rather than coming across so condescending and just telling us that you've already responded in kind.
OP
OP
Nah, its not that. Its mainly that y'all will be the same ones shitting bricks about Diablo being a mobile game but can't see any issue happening here.
Your only posts in the thread is you fucking complaining about me and the subject. But I gotta dig through and spoonfeed you?
You realise you're comparing a massively famous and well known single to relatively unknown/underground dances?
Fuck off with this shit. Not that it actually matters but I've actually said I'm excited for the Diablo mobile game. You're making a shit ton of shitty assumptions that anyone who disagrees with you is a piece of shit.
And it IS that. If you want I'll happily go through the thread and quote the posts from you an others that are blantly playing the 'If you don't agree then you're racist' card.
I've said this like 3 times already, but your overall point of Epic not giving credit to creators is valid. But you're turning this issue into something completely different, implying it's a racist one and that anyone who disagress with you is a racist. You've done it to me a couple of times, even when I've explicit said I agree with your overall point. Piss right off if you're going to try and paint me as a racist, or some 'gamer' who rages about mobile games when you actually know fuck all about me. The ONLY issue I've had here is you continually trying to paint anyone who disagrees with you as a racist. It's pretty appalling.
There is a productive discussion to be had here, but if this thread is to continue, we will need to take it seriously, not antagonize each other, or be dismissive about the topic. Post in good faith and be civil.
I've made my points earlier in the thread, I'll happily link them to you if you want proof.
I think you'll find we both want the same thing! (artists credited)
Again for the cheap seats.
So you trying to divorce this from race if laughable.
Another way of looking at it, maybe: IYO is it unreasonable for that rapper to be concerned that Fortnite appropriating his moves early on in an attempt to repackage it as Fortnite stuff could potentially be like if Soulja Boy's dance was used in the most popular game at the time and then made more famous by that game than via Soulja Boy, preventing him from becoming Soulja Boy (which isn't saying much tbh, dude isn't exactly K-Dot, but at least everyone knows him for the thing he made popular to begin with)?
At this point, OP is acting in bad faith, because almost no one is agreeing with him.
This specific issue is not a whites vs black issue, like OP is trying to make it out to be. It literally can't be a black specific issue when most of the dances and emotes involved in the discussion don't come from black culture. There is a discussion to be had here but it's not one about race. I've said like 5 times now that I'm totally on board with the creators getting credit.
This also has absolutely nothing to do with the post if mine that you quoted, which was about OP throwing out the 'well you're a racist' card to anyone who disagrees with him.
I don't know what your question is and I think you may be getting the wrong impression by my response.
My point above is it's hard to re-appropriate source material of a massively mainstream hit single where most people know the artist that made it.
The example of the football chant he used isn't the same thing as Fortnite and Dancing. Fortnite is mining more underground dances and cultures for content for their mainstream game. Epic are obscuring the link between source and content.
I really don't get your anger towards posters who don't have the exact same opinion as you do.. I get this is a sensitive subject.. and you have answered. But you pretty much started with being hostile.. these are your posts from the first couple of pages.
your third post (if we don't count the OP), is the only one on the first couple of pages that tries to discuss something.. and it ends with you being angry.. and telling people to use their brains..
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The thing is, I can see what the problem is here, and yes the "inventors" of the moves/dances should be credited in the game, no doubt about that. It´s even stupid that Epic changes the names of the moves/dances.. they shouldn't do it.. They do it for every emote/dance in the game, no matter what culture it comes from.. and it is wrong no matter what culture it originates from..
Please stop being so angry, and try to discuss this instead of getting pissed all the time, ignore the trolls (or even better report them), but please try to discuss and lets have a civil discussion here.
How isn't the issue of minority representation (black) a race loaded question?
You pointing to other emote/moves that aren't specific from US black culture doesn't in any fucking way a counter to what the OP is saying.
And about you're racist card it kinda is kinda racist to trivialize/defend how minority culture is appropriated by the majority with no recognition or compensation give to the minority group.
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