I'm white I can clearly understand where the OP is coming from, stop trying to "all lives matter" this discussion.
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"Fortnite Dances" is Cultural Erasure. Straight Up.
- Thread starter DigitalOp
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I'm not trivialising anything, is my point. This is an issue, regardless of the culture or the origin of the dance. The creators should get credit, no matter what race they are or where they're from. There's like 50 dances in Fortnite, with NONE of the creators getting credit, many of whom are white, asian, eastern european, black, hispanic. No compensation is being given to ANY group, which is why it's such bad faith to try and boil this down to a whites vs black issue like OP is trying to do.
The fact that you somehow took my posts as me defining the appropriation of a minority culture is actually baffling.
Edit: And just to add, I'd be in support of OP if he was just phrasing this as a "I'm sick of black cuture getting used and us not getting the credit" general argument, because that definitely happens and is an issue. But that's NOT what's happening her with Epic and Fortnite. There's no appropriation specific to black cuture, they're taking shit from tons of cultures and using it without giving credit. My issue here is OP calling anyone racist if they doesn't see this specific issue as an attack on black culture.
You're 100% right, my mistake. Looks like I replied to you but re-reading what I wrote it was directed at what the person you quoted was saying, not you. Being drunk tonight and losing some ability to focus means time for me to take a break from interneting for now!
Many many many posters here have said they'd like to see recognition or a reference for the dance moves. Try again.
As for compensation, that's a whole other can of worms legally I couldn't even begin to understand how it could possibly work seeing as it can be multiple people involved in the process of dance and not just the artist.
This is basically how culture has always disseminated, across cultures, races, nations, for a very long time. If you accept it as an issue, I'm not sure what you could do about it - how does that money 'get back to the community'? How do you prove someone was originator of x? How do you know the person you're crediting with inventing a dance move didn't just see it at a club from some random person and then because that originator is an artist with the means to spread it via a music video (for example), they get the credit for it? In which case are we not in the same situation? You'll get loads of people calling out that they were the originator of a particular dance move, or the popular move is just an iteration on theirs, etc.
Not according to the OP though:
"And before you say "FoRtNiTe MaDe tHeM PoPuLaR"....... No, these dances made it to Fortnite BECAUSE they were already popular. You got it backwards"
The comparison to SNA is pretty much exactly the same if we're looking at OP's argument. Although I would say that the those that hear SNA at a football game will look up the song and find out who the band is pretty easily. Whereas a lot of people will stop short of a "Fortnite Dance" and leave it as that, with the artist not getting noticed.
Although tbh I fall into this camp slightly, the "Running Man" will forever be known as a PlayStation Home dance as far as im concerned lol
This is completely different and also not strictly speaking accurate. Football fans usually take well known songs and make it their own by either changing the lyrics or changing the tempo. The crucial part is adoption. Liverpool fans sang "Javier Mascherano" to the tune. Labour supporting football fans turned it into a chant about Jeremy Corbyn. Do you know what connects all of these things? They're not commercial enterprises, they're normal people coming together and creating new culture out of it.
The OP is talking about cultural appropriation - ironically you just proved this by producing a video that shows that even when football fans adopt something, it doesn't take the place of the original. What OP is referring to is that Epic and Fortnite, by not calling back to the origin of their 'inspirations', are effectively erasing the origins. What do you think they play at grounds before and after games? It'll be Seven Nation Army, which the fans can then sing along to.
I think the OP has a point and yours isn't really addressing it.
So you agree that there is an issue but OP shouldn't raise it cause it isn't only a black v white issue?
Surely you can understand OP since this has historically happened a boatload of times.
Like I said this is another in a long line of times where specific black culture has made revenue for people who aren't part of that culture.
Sorry, this is a load of shit, I couldn't tell you where Flossing originates from - I first heard of it through Fortnite, and I still couldn't tell you where it originates from.
I could hum the bassline of Seven Nation Army and start smacking a table and most people in a random sample would be able to tell me the name of the song and/or the artists.
It's not the same thing, how many people knew about the flossing dance before Fortnite? Are you telling me it's just a coincidence that flossing became popular at the same time Fortnite did?
I'm not telling you that at all. I was replying to someone who was suggesing that these dances being unknown strengthens the argument in the OP but the OP said that the dance was already popular - not me.
Where did I say OP shouldn't raise the issue? You're reading my post and extracting stuff that isn't there, it's really weird.
So to see where you stand, if Epic removed all the dances that came from black culture, and continued to use the ones from hispanic creators, eastern European, Asian creators etc, still without compensation or credit, would you be fine with that?
If not, then it's clearly not a black specific issue and OP has no right to say that anyone who disagrees with him is racist against black people. If yes, then I feel like you need to explain that.
Well me and OP may disagree on the part about how popular the dance moves are but I I still agree wholesale with the message of his argument.
If your main problem is that Epic should've credited the dances, I agree. Even though they are not required to do so, since the dances are likely not copyrighted, it would've definitely been the nice thing to do. I also definitely wouldn't be opposed to Epic giving them royalties (or otherwise paying the original creators of the dance). They're not required to do so, but I think Epic has enough money to throw the original creators of the moves a bone considering they're using their dances in the game after all.
However, that isn't going to stop the issue with kids knowing the dance as 'the Fortnite dance', that's just what happens when something is adapted into something that is way more popular (at the time of adaptation) than the original source. Stuff like this has been happening for years and will continue to happen for years, since that's just the way cultural spread works. For another recent example of this, look up any video of the Yes song 'Roundabout' and you'll see that most of the comments are about JoJo's Bizarre Adventure. I get that because in this case it concerns black US cultural outings, it's more sensitive, but the truth is that most people, unless they do specific research into the source, don't really care to know about the source of that thing they like.
The floss dance is also kind of a bad example, because I specifically remember that being very popular on the internet before Fortnite was a thing. It's from a SNL performance of Katy Perry's song Swish Swish.
However, that isn't going to stop the issue with kids knowing the dance as 'the Fortnite dance', that's just what happens when something is adapted into something that is way more popular (at the time of adaptation) than the original source. Stuff like this has been happening for years and will continue to happen for years, since that's just the way cultural spread works. For another recent example of this, look up any video of the Yes song 'Roundabout' and you'll see that most of the comments are about JoJo's Bizarre Adventure. I get that because in this case it concerns black US cultural outings, it's more sensitive, but the truth is that most people, unless they do specific research into the source, don't really care to know about the source of that thing they like.
This is actually not true in my experience. A lot of younger people here in Europe know Seven Nation Army only from the football chants and so they either go 'Oh, it's that football chant' or 'Hehehe, it's 'All Germans are gay'" (the Dutch homophobic version of the chant, because we Dutch are assholes).
The floss dance is also kind of a bad example, because I specifically remember that being very popular on the internet before Fortnite was a thing. It's from a SNL performance of Katy Perry's song Swish Swish.
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I can say the same thing, I knew the origin of the floss (backpack kid in live Katy Perry show on tv last year) before fortnite, and most people did, it got pretty popular on the internet before fortnite.
But for years I have heard that that hum in soccer games and never knew it's origin, only hearing it for the first time in a battlefield 1 trailer I believe, and fuck today I learned that it is old. I'm pretty sure that tons of people treat that song as "that soccer song" similarly to the "fortnite dance".
So just because something is applicable to you and your assumptions, doesn't mean that what he said is a load of shit.
The EU 1984 copyright bill will probably sort this considering even memes are up for strikes.
/showerthoughts
That's the crux of this, if you want force used here welcome to the erosion of fair use and people being able to have fun without copyright nonsense.
If you just want epic to list some credits you can ask but they have no precedent to do so over dances. I'll presume because of how popular this is that's really what gets people talking. If the game only had 250,000 players I don't anyone would give a shit about dance emotes.
/showerthoughts
That's the crux of this, if you want force used here welcome to the erosion of fair use and people being able to have fun without copyright nonsense.
If you just want epic to list some credits you can ask but they have no precedent to do so over dances. I'll presume because of how popular this is that's really what gets people talking. If the game only had 250,000 players I don't anyone would give a shit about dance emotes.
Why does Epic, do you mean?
At a guess, I would imagine that whilst dances are not protected by US copyright laws, acknowledging their direct origins could leave them vulnerable to potential lawsuits from the original creators. (Which even though would probably rule in Epic's favor, would still be a time consuming and expensive process)
That, or they simply just don't care.
Edit: Just saw your edit, so my answer isn't really relevant anymore :)
And I'm saying that ignoring the black v white issue and representation of it is an issue.
That you wanna talk about other cultures is fine since I don't tend to tell minorities what they are allowed to argue against unlike you.
Dude, I don't even know why you're quoting me when you're clearly not reading what I'm posting. That's like 3 posts in a row now where you've argued against something I never said.
Why are you trying to derail and turn this into a black V white issue when it is not that.
How the hell does "black vs white" end up in a conversation about the dances in Fortnite? This is solely an issue of Epic not citing sources, not some weird racial issue.
I think that kid came up with the dance.So can I officially blame black people for this """dance"""?
I think this topic is making a tempest in a teapot.
But there is a point that I'm with OP, they should credit the dances if they know their origin.
Will it make so much difference from who plays the game? Probably not. But the creator wouldn't feel stolen.
But ofc we wouldn't be talking about any of this if Fornite wasn't such a big success and made this dances so Mainstream.
But there is a point that I'm with OP, they should credit the dances if they know their origin.
Will it make so much difference from who plays the game? Probably not. But the creator wouldn't feel stolen.
But ofc we wouldn't be talking about any of this if Fornite wasn't such a big success and made this dances so Mainstream.
Fucking lol!
OP talks about how black devs aren't represented and how stuff is taken from black culture and y'all be like "how is this a black v white issue".
Talking cultural appropriation and representation with whypipo is draining.
OPs point was that Fortnite using dances from black people without credit is emblematic of systemic racism in the USA.
Any response or action from EA or Fortnite devs? Hoping there is one. Not exactly hard for the Fortnite dev in charge of dance elites to research and credit the artists/choreographers who came up with the dance. Should be at most a couple days of work.
When movies have two people salsa dancing in a scene, do they have to credit/pay the original minds behind it?
I understand the video however aren't there several dances in the game from various cultures? Can't say for certain, never played the game.
Oh, and as with any phenomenon, the damn Floss dance is so annoying. Bugs me even when my nephew does it.
I understand the video however aren't there several dances in the game from various cultures? Can't say for certain, never played the game.
Oh, and as with any phenomenon, the damn Floss dance is so annoying. Bugs me even when my nephew does it.
exactly.. and when someone then mentions, that EPIC does this for all cultures and people in the game, that this is not something they do only to spite the black people, then the problem starts.
It is clearly a problem in the world today, black history/culture is "erased" by white people, to make it look like they created it.. BUT it does not look like EPIC is trying to do this with Fortnite, because they do this for all emotes/dances, they are not just not crediting Black creators.
At the very least Fortnite could reference the creator of the dance in cases where there is a clear origin.
Make it stopSo can I officially blame black people for this """dance"""?
Sorry this bothers you so much OP, but surely you realize that most people, and especially kids, aren't really interested in knowing if some meme or cultural element isn't original, and in giving credit to the original creators.
You know there's kids that hear a song for the first time today and have a very hard time understanding when you tell them it's a cover of a 40-odd year old song? It's not like they'll hear the song on Spotify and go read the fine print above the lyrics so they know it's a cover. They hear it today, it's new, they'll assume it's original. Nay, they won't even assume that, because they simply don't care about that. It's a new song to them, and that's that.
Or, how about quotes credited to someone who isn't really the one who said them? In a room of 20 people, sometimes there's one folk who knows the quote isn't from the person that's been quoted. Think anyone cares? Tell them the quote is from someone else, and they'll nod absently and then go on to miscredit the quote again at the next chance.
Anyway, you have your reasons to be annoyed, but surely you understand that the white people telling you that simply don't know that the dance isn't original to Fortnite. Even if the game did credit the original creator of the dance, you can't assume people will read the credits.
OK mate, keep trying to bait people out with your race war nonsense. We're talking about fucking dance emotes in video games.
For all you know, the suggestions for including said dances could have been put forward by POC on the dev team but I'm sure you'll tell me how Epic's hiring policies are discriminatory too.
How is it any more a white v black issue than say, a white v Hispanic one? Still talking specifically about Fortnite and the dances, because they took uncredited dances/emote from hispanic creators too.
I had to look up the term cultural erasure cos I'd not heard it before
"Cultural Erasure is the gradual removal of various traditions and customs from society."
I dont think thats whats happening at all.
On the topic of whether the originator of a dance move should be compensated when someone else makes it popular - nah I don't think so. The MJ/Moonwalk one is a good one - the guy who invented the moonwalk did it in his routine, it got publicized, he made his money off it. Just because MJ was about to do it much much better and do much more with it, nothing was taken away from the original guy. The implication seems to be if he (or the creators of these dances) hadn't had their work borrow then they would have received the same success and recognition, but thats obviously not the case.
Its not the dance thats driving the success, its fortnite. They could put any dance in there and it would have the same outcome
"Cultural Erasure is the gradual removal of various traditions and customs from society."
I dont think thats whats happening at all.
On the topic of whether the originator of a dance move should be compensated when someone else makes it popular - nah I don't think so. The MJ/Moonwalk one is a good one - the guy who invented the moonwalk did it in his routine, it got publicized, he made his money off it. Just because MJ was about to do it much much better and do much more with it, nothing was taken away from the original guy. The implication seems to be if he (or the creators of these dances) hadn't had their work borrow then they would have received the same success and recognition, but thats obviously not the case.
Its not the dance thats driving the success, its fortnite. They could put any dance in there and it would have the same outcome
OP
OP
This "All Dances need Credit" is just as banal, nonsensical, draining and reductive as "All Lives Matter" responses are....
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BLACK LIVES MATTER
No.. ALL LIVES MATTER
Okay.... So we're in agreement? Black Lives DO Matter because ALL Lives Do? Correct?
.... ALL LIVES MATTER!
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Black Culture needs to be credited in Fortnite
No... ALL Culture needs to be credited in Fortnite
Okay... So we're in agreement? Black Culture should be credited because ALL Culture should be credited? Correct?
.... ALL Culture needs to be credited in Fortnite
This "All Dances need Credit" is just as banal, nonsensical, draining and reductive as "All Lives Matter" responses are....
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BLACK LIVES MATTER
No.. ALL LIVES MATTER
Okay.... So we're in agreement? Black Lives DO Matter because ALL Lives Do? Correct?
.... ALL LIVES MATTER!
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Black Culture needs to be credited in Fortnite
No... ALL Culture needs to be credited in Fortnite
Okay... So we're in agreement? Black Culture should be credited because ALL Culture should be credited? Correct?
.... ALL Culture needs to be credited in Fortnite
The difference is, Black Lives Matters stands to protest the overall treatment of black people, who have undoubtedly not been treated as equals compared to white people. That's not what's happening here with Fortnite and their dances/emotes, creators from all races and cultures are being treated the same. There is no racial issue in this specific example that you brought up and created a thread about.
Holy shit the OP explains pretty fucking clear that this is about black culture.
Your the one trying to make it into something else.
Holy shit.
What TF is the deal with white people trying to excuse cultural appropriation with pointing to other cultures being appropriated?
Listen, if someone who is Hispanic want to raise the issue of Latino culture being appropriated then I'm SURE AS FUCK not going to try and shot them down by pointing to other cultures that are appropriated.
Seriously, you work in a school. How have you managed to get a job in a school when you clearly can't read.
OP
OP
I have said it thousands of times over man.
Fortnite is treating everyone the same. Ive never said EPIC is some secret cabal attacking Black Culture.
The fact of the matter is that this type of behavior affects our Culture more due to historical practices committed in US History. This is fact. Our Culture will have a different relationship in regards to issue than others because the others being affected like this don't have the history of oppression like we do.
Ive stated this over and over.
I will not say this again.
Lol! Someone has run out of arguments!
Your just like the kids in school trying to excuse their bad behavior by pointing to others.
Lol, says the person who exclusively seems to think this is a "black v white" issue.
Honestly mate, take a day off.
Then how do you get from this to saying that anyone who doesn't agree with you is racist towards black people specifially? Because you've made several posts in this thread implying that people who don't agree simply don't like or aren't comfortable with black people. Why can you not understand that people can agree with your overall point, but disagree that it's a racial issue?
You've literally just said yourself that epic aren't treating black people worse than anyone else, so why do you keep implying that people are racist for not 100% agreeing with you?
I haven't at all, you just don't read anything I actually post and instead try to argue against something else entirely.
Hip Hop was birthed out of taking other peoples music and re purposing it. Read about some of the copyright issues in that area.
Im curious about how many times that anecdote as actually happened, for it to actually be annoying?
Dude! Your pointing to other instances of cultural appropriation as an excuse.
Or am I wrong in my understanding of what your saying?
It is stated in the OP:
So that's prety much what OP wants to discuss here. He wants to push the "black v white" issue.
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