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Oct 25, 2017
3,784
Well either way, I can't imagine Nintendo/Inti will ever get the message with FE Heroes. The game is good in spite of the designs, but they won't want to fix what isn't broken for something that generates as much money as it does (something like $100k a day). That's just the unfortunate reality of gacha games in general I think.
 

Damian Mahadevan

User banned for use of alt account
Banned
Nov 26, 2017
412
I wonder if it is a case of sexualised character designs increase sales. Will it be proof that sexualised character designs sells games if XC2 sells more than a million since the others all sold less than 920k according to VGChartz worldwide?
 

How About No

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,785
The Great Dairy State
Yup. It's like an antidote to the otaku-pandering shite coming out of Japan these days. (The comic itself is basically an all-female cosmic horror ala Berserk or Dark Souls.)

5814149-11.jpg

Monstress_10-1.png

Monstress_12-1.png
Well I'm interested now
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,579
I thought about this when looking at Corrin's (female) armour when Fates released. Male plate armour gets exaggerated to the point that it looks like a battlesuit, whereas female armour gets reduced in thickness until it's basically spandex hugging every curve. Both are still 'heavy armour'.

I mean it sort of factors into traditional gender norms. "Strength" for males means protecting your very core. Weaknesses, worries, digressions with the self, they are covered by muscle, weaponry, avarice, often turning the "Strong Male" into something unrecognizable by other males (note, I'm pointedly using 'males' here).

Females are the opposite. They're supposed to be open, confident in their vulnerabilities, inviting even when lethal. It's just sad that the only way most art does this is BEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWB (DID YOU SEE THE BEWBS! BEWBS BRO BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWBS!). Or I guess in more recent history....thighs?

But yeah.

It's funny, even when you take this understanding of strength perverting the male form into something inhuman, with Xenoblade 2 (going back to that) when they apply it to women, they still manage to make it an oggle piece.
The only example I can actually think of where the concept isn't an oggle piece is Justice from Guilty Gear.

latest
 

Nintex

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
672
Fire Emblem was dead in the water until they changed the style and added in the relationships mechanics and such starting with Awakening.
It might not all be responsible for it's revival but you're going to have a hard time convincing the creators to change it at this point.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,579
Fire Emblem was dead in the water until they changed the style and added in the relationships mechanics and such starting with Awakening.
It might not all be responsible for it's revival but you're going to have a hard time convincing the creators to change it at this point.
Oh yeah, it's going to be this way forever.

Which is too bad because the story in Fates is dogshit. All of those characters are bad, they just look nice.
 

GraphicViolets

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
985
The problem with Fire Emblem heroes seems to be more that the design is all over the place.

I mean you have this:
character_slide_02_a.png

And you have this:


In the same game. You can basically play out whatever fantasy floats your boat.
That design looks good except she still has exposed thighs for some reason :/
(and super long boots and heels)
 

Moogle

Top Mog
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,772
I wrote a long and involved response to the idea that women just need to be more humble (passive and palatable) in these discussions and we'll be taken more seriously (hint: it's some grade A bullshit), but fuck it, I can't be bothered to engage this time. Instead:

To Persephone, and also the other women contributors in this thread and similar ones: I've been intermittently reading this topic, and you got so much unwarranted shit, dumb accusations and nitpicking for even starting this thread, which is almost 5k comments deep and the shit keeps comin'. Even if any of you are just ranting or being 'unhelpful', know that I'm grateful you bother to still show up around these threads and it's always appreciated that you contribute your views. Seriously, this thread has seen a defender of animated child porn, fringe conspiracy theories, people accusing women of not knowing how their own anatomy works, and too many bad-faith arguments to count... woof. I know for a fact many women on this site are rendered too tired or anxious by the sea lioning, derailing and thinly veiled contempt to keep coming back. Thanks for sticking around.

I hope this isn't seen as derailing as that's not my intention... something something Fire Emblem?
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,550
I wonder if it is a case of sexualised character designs increase sales. Will it be proof that sexualised character designs sells games if XC2 sells more than a million since the others all sold less than 920k according to VGChartz worldwide?
VGchartz' numbers are not trustworthy.

That said, Nintendo's published figures put the shipments of both Xenoblade Chronicles for the Wii and Xenoblade Chronicles X at less than 1 million (Since only games that shipped a million or more are listed). I've seen claims that Xenoblade Chronicles comes to over 1 million when including the N3DS port, which makes sense, but I have no idea what the source for that is.

As for your question, no, it wouldn't be proof. Just being on the Switch is already a more probable factor for potential success than "sexualized character designs".
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,398
The problem with Fire Emblem heroes seems to be more that the design is all over the place.

I mean you have this:
character_slide_02_a.png

And you have this:

In the same game. You can basically play out whatever fantasy floats your boat.
That sure doesn't fit a female warrior power fantasy. I wouldn't want to go into battle with high heels, knee-high boots and exposed thighs.

See, even when they're almost decent designs, they just HAVE to unnecessarily throw this gendered garbage in. It's tiresome.
 

4859

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,046
In the weak and the wounded
The funniest thing about the XC2 thread, the same people mad about the discussion taking place are largely the ones responsible for the continuation of it, as they keep defending illogical stances or insane justifications.

It would be funny, except this is the standard dogpiling tactic for literally ANY criticism.

Its the same way they handle talking about lootboxes, or mtx complaints, and it will be the same way they handle anything else they hope to wave away without discussion, they aren't trying to persuade using argument, they are attempting attrition by repetition, every single time its the same arguments over and over and over and over again, and they HAVE to respond to every new post, with the same debunked poorly reasoned arguments easily handled by anyone with basic social skills. They are just trying to smother any and all criticism until the offenders get tired of it, shut up and go away, and when they dont, or new ones come in, they complain about THAT.
 
Oct 27, 2017
488
I wrote a long and involved response to the idea that women just need to be more humble (passive and palatable) in these discussions and we'll be taken more seriously (hint: it's some grade A bullshit), but fuck it, I can't be bothered to engage this time. Instead:

To Persephone, and also the other women contributors in this thread and similar ones: I've been intermittently reading this topic, and you got so much unwarranted shit, dumb accusations and nitpicking for even starting this thread, which is almost 5k comments deep and the shit keeps comin'. Even if any of you are just ranting or being 'unhelpful', know that I'm grateful you bother to still show up around these threads and it's always appreciated that you contribute your views. Seriously, this thread has seen a defender of animated child porn, fringe conspiracy theories, people accusing women of not knowing how their own anatomy works, and too many bad-faith arguments to count... woof. I know for a fact many women on this site are rendered too tired or anxious by the sea lioning, derailing and thinly veiled contempt to keep coming back. Thanks for sticking around.

I hope this isn't seen as derailing as that's not my intention... something something Fire Emblem?
Please post the bolded whenever or if ever you feel comfortable, and then don't feel obligated to stick around to 'defend' it if you're not up for any outbreaks of war that might ensue. Know that one or more of us can and will handle that if it happens. God knows I'm starting to finally feel the urge for an actual fight myself at this point instead of ceding to democracy and reason over and over again. (I should probably walk away for a day or two instead of compulsively keeping up with both threads, lol).

If anything you were more on topic than the gacha talk.

And yes. Fire Emblem.

That sure doesn't fit a female warrior power fantasy. I wouldn't want to go into battle with high heels, knee-high boots and exposed thighs.

See, even when they're almost decent designs, they just HAVE to unnecessarily throw this gendered garbage in. It's tiresome.
I love miniskirts and thigh boots and I'm getting really really goddamned tired of miniskirts and thigh boots. They are not reasonable travel attire, least of all if you're not wearing damned pants under the miniskirt. Which actually looks pretty cool. Seriously, guys. Pants. Try it. Once in a while. Christ.

EDIT: I'll even compromise. They can be TIGHT pants. Just GIVE THEM SOME PANTS.
 
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Damian Mahadevan

User banned for use of alt account
Banned
Nov 26, 2017
412
VGchartz' numbers are not trustworthy.

That said, Nintendo's published figures put the shipments of both Xenoblade Chronicles for the Wii and Xenoblade Chronicles X at less than 1 million (Since only games that shipped a million or more are listed). I've seen claims that Xenoblade Chronicles comes to over 1 million when including the N3DS port, which makes sense, but I have no idea what the source for that is.

As for your question, no, it wouldn't be proof. Just being on the Switch is already a more probable factor for potential success than "sexualized character designs".

It is an unfortunate reality that we need to use VGChartz for worldwide numbers, we have Japanese numbers, we no longer have NPD numbers and we never got European numbers. VGChartz is a necessary evil especially now. That said sometimes we get nuggets from the likes of Micheal Pachter in terms of a few games global sales.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Oh yeah, it's going to be this way forever.

Which is too bad because the story in Fates is dogshit. All of those characters are bad, they just look nice.

Yeah, I seriously think the Echoe's low sales, in addition to being on the 3DS when the Switch is hot news, is due to the fact that Fates...kind of sucks. Which is a shame because Echoes is really good and a return to form after Fates.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,550
Exposed thighs in otherwise full-plate armor is one of the most frequent and obnoxious cliches right now. It's easier to list the Monster Hunter female armors that don't have exposed thighs.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
It is an unfortunate reality that we need to use VGChartz for worldwide numbers, we have Japanese numbers, we no longer have NPD numbers and we never got European numbers. VGChartz is a necessary evil especially now. That said sometimes we get nuggets from the likes of Micheal Pachter in terms of a few games global sales.

To be fair, if numbers to go up, we usually will see them in financial briefings from the company themselves.

Please post the bolded whenever or if ever you feel comfortable, and then don't feel obligated to stick around to 'defend' it if you're not up for any outbreaks of war that might ensue. Know that one or more of us can and will handle that if it happens. God knows I'm starting to finally feel the urge for an actual fight myself at this point instead of ceding to democracy and reason over and over again. (I should probably walk away for a day or two instead of compulsively keeping up with both threads, lol).

If anything you were more on topic than the gacha talk.

And yes. Fire Emblem.


I love miniskirts and thigh boots and I'm getting really really goddamned tired of miniskirts and thigh boots. They are not reasonable travel attire, least of all if you're not wearing damned pants under the miniskirt. Which actually looks pretty cool. Seriously, guys. Pants. Try it. Once in a while. Christ.

The funny thing is that the character is supposed to be a princess of the Ice Kingdom, which, you know...probably means she should be wearing more appropriate attire. But nope! Got to have those Zettai Ryouiki in there!
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,304
Exposed thighs in otherwise full-plate armor is one of the most frequent and obnoxious cliches right now. It's easier to list the Monster Hunter female armors that don't have exposed thighs.

It's funny, because with all the Xenoblade 2 chat, I see people who handwave all the bad female character designs turn around and talk about how awful Rex's is, and I can't help but think it's because he's a male character with exposed thighs.
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,786
The problem with Fire Emblem heroes seems to be more that the design is all over the place.

I mean you have this:
character_slide_02_a.png

And you have this:
cisbhudhgidbt6hjb1md.png


In the same game. You can basically play out whatever fantasy floats your boat.
It's a gacha game, hence the conceit is basically, "let's throw a bunch of crazy designs for people to RNG on". They're often designed to be as garish as possible so they all stand out from one another as much as possible to incentivize rolls. Like, one of the most popular FGO characters, Shuten Douji, looks incredibly different from the rest of the characters in the game. FE is perfect for it since it's gone through decades of different character designs and designers. I think the current lead artist for the series, at least during Awakening/Fates, is the same artist who worked for Grasshopper circa No More Heroes.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,550
We also need less men in robot armour and more of this:
Female armor must have the thighs and face exposed.

Male armor must make you look like a Gundam.

LCUDnGs.jpg


These are both the same armor set. And the hilarious part is, the monster you get the parts to build this armor from is female.
 

Cinemikel

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,433
I wonder if it is a case of sexualised character designs increase sales. Will it be proof that sexualised character designs sells games if XC2 sells more than a million since the others all sold less than 920k according to VGChartz worldwide?
Nope, only that Switch in its first year is a more viable platform than the dead Wii and Wii U when XBC and XBX came out
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
Titania is the only FE Heroes character that could pass for a female power fantasy tbh. Maybe Cecilia if you prefer mages.
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,556
Speaking of monster Hunter, I really hate the metal skirts a lot of the female armor sets have. The set on the left is the male set.

latest
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,579
I actually like this design.
It's cute!

It's just...what you'd expect. Twin tails, boob armor, stylized daisy dukes, exposed thighs, tall boots, fake cape coat that shows off legs.

It's just....cute design built solely on the backs of cliches and it makes me sad because it makes me think they don't care. They're all like that. Just...the same as everything else. There's one of THESE in everything now.

But yeah, it's for a gatcha game, as someone said, so...those aren't known for their originality or fun. They exist so people will buy everything on impulse.

So whatever.

Does the Gundam armor have a skirt, exposed thighs, and thighboots? I'd be a pretty big fan if not, personally speaking.

Men in dresses and women in gundam armor that doesn't have a skirt, exposed thighs, and thighboots are pretty strong passions of mine, actually?
I'm bummed out that Yung Thug and Jaden Smith seem to be done wearing dresses.

They looked good in dresses.

At least Eddie Izzard is wearing dresses again, though it's for campaigning and never for tour marketing.
 

4859

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,046
In the weak and the wounded
VGchartz' numbers are not trustworthy.

That said, Nintendo's published figures put the shipments of both Xenoblade Chronicles for the Wii and Xenoblade Chronicles X at less than 1 million (Since only games that shipped a million or more are listed). I've seen claims that Xenoblade Chronicles comes to over 1 million when including the N3DS port, which makes sense, but I have no idea what the source for that is.

As for your question, no, it wouldn't be proof. Just being on the Switch is already a more probable factor for potential success than "sexualized character designs".

Yeah, if it just clears one million, that would actually be a pretty huge failure considering the context of the situations.

The original had practically no na marketing, because the only reason it ever even made it to the states was because we fought tooth and nail for it, and it was only available at a single retailer, in the twilight and waning popularity of the wii, which nintendo had basically stopped supporting (The last years of the wii were weird) even then, NA was by far the biggest market for the game, dwarfing japan and iirc, coming out a little on top of japan and europe combined.

The sequel was a carrot on a stick for the lifetime of the wii u, which quickly became a spectacular failure of a system, and was finally released in the waning years of a dying platform.

THis is launching at the start of a systems life, a super hot system selling gangbusters, with the exception of out of place outfit designs, it is exactly the kind of game the systems audience is buying in gangbusters (Big ol honkin adventure) if it only marginally outsells the previous games that came out under those really bad conditions for sales with something over just one or even 2 million.... thats... pretty bad. It should be unthinkable that this game could sell less than a previous entry in this environment.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,579
Isn't a longer metal skirt more protective of the lower body though...?

I mean, ignoring that it's purely a stylistic choice, the moment you have to jump over a rock, you'd face plant because your skirt would catch the edge. NO CAPES!

It's silly, but then the better MonHun costumes are pretty skin exposing anyway so it's like...whatever.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
Just go the Dark Souls route and make armors the same for both genders. Less work and less chances to do something stupid.
 

Deleted member 24766

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
242
I... don't want to be incendiary because I'm not really looking for a fight here of all places and times, but I'm fairly certain she was aware that she was stating her opinion on a subject. Like, that's mostly what we do here.

To me it read less like a personal opinion and more like it was a fact. Suggesting that there is only one character that can be considered a power fantasy for women - when this would be completely subjective. English is not my first language, so I do apologize if I had misunderstood what they were trying to get across.
 

Moogle

Top Mog
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,772
Wait, what? You got evidence of that? If true, that is absolutely abhorrent and should be dealt with immediately.

It was, they were banned for 1 month. I now see they edited their post after the fact, their reasoning was if it's animated it is it a victimless crime and therefore "harmless" (conveniently ignoring how titillating depictions of abuse can further traumatise and inhibit survivors)
https://www.resetera.com/posts/1148681/
 

Deleted member 24766

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
242
It was, they were banned for 1 month. I now see they edited their post after the fact, their reasoning was if it's animated it is it a victimless crime and therefore "harmless" (conveniently ignoring how titillating depictions of abuse can further traumatise and inhibit survivors)
https://www.resetera.com/posts/1148681/

Good to know. Not sure how someone can possibly justify that sort of mindset.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,008
Canada
Someone posted this in the XC2 thread, not sure if any of these are new, but it definitely shows the almost funny gender difference when looking at the first couple f/m siblings.

The 5th set seems fine. What do you folks think of the girl in the 3rd set?

NSFW
DOChZxZUIAICryJ.jpg
DOCg5aAVoAUdDrF.jpg

DOCfY9QVoAAAkMa.jpg
DOCgG0yUEAAWfXw.jpg

DLb_rLLU8AIk56H.jpg
DLb-o1NV4AA0xzh.jpg

DPs5lUkUMAAngOg.jpg
DPs4qyaUQAA6r5s.jpg

DPEpFPUV4AAwVBp.jpg
DPEpD0aVQAEHP-f.jpg

DOQZZLtU8AAEzqq.jpg
DOQR6sHVQAEwSJQ.jpg
 
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Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,579
So long as it's not pink, has an exaggerated hourglass figure, and blatant metal tits.

Which reminds me: I actually have to design some giant bio-organic suits of robot armour for a trio of ocean goddesses at some point..

Gundam Barbathos has some birthing hips though.

Someone posted this in the XC2 thread, not sure if any of these are new, but it definitely shows the almost funny gender difference when looking at the first couple f/m siblings.

The 5th set seems fine. What you folks think of the girl in the 3rd set.

NSFW
She reminds me of vanillaware designs. Like a more modernized, dramatically less busty, version of the queen of death.
 
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