Why is attacking female NPCs in Rockstar's games always so controversial?

Lowrys · Nov 13, 2018

Partly it's because of Rockstar's history. The company actively courted controversy in the late 90s and early 00s, and it's notoriety was increased by Jack Thompson's campaign against sex and violence in videogames, to the point where GTA became synonymous in the general media with "sleeping with prostitutes, then killing them and stealing their money.

I highly recommend the book Jacked, which details this period and is a great read.

I'm sure there are other factors, as described by others in this thread.

Bear and bird · Nov 13, 2018

It has definitely been disappointing to see several news outlets completely missing the point why the youtube videos became a controversy in the first place. Dagbladet, a major newspaper in Norway basically took the youtuber's side by buying into the "if you can kill men then why not women?!" bad faith argument. : /

I think a lot of the more mainstream press still isn't quite aware of the presence of alt right/anti-sjw turds in gaming communities and the people who pander to them.

Vela · Nov 13, 2018

I wonder why it's controversial that a culture (gaming) known for its cruel hatred of women is provided with a game where women are 1) designed for the pleasure of heterosexual (white) men and 2) can be beat up and hurt.

Add to the fact that Rockstar continues to only put men as the main characters in their games and it's clear that their games are emblematic of patriarchal norms.

Sherlocked · Nov 13, 2018

Cranster said:
The youtube controversy was all down to context. The guy was literally spreading hate. Now if it was something in a general gameplay video that didn't include "killing feminist" in the title then the guy wouldn't have been banned at all.

Yeah. It is all about context.

I mean somehow people were even fine with the controversial "ITS GTA! KILL HOOKERS AND DRIVE OVER PEOPLE" - because it wasn't put inside a context that lived to promote hate against a specific group. English is not my native tongue so it is complicated to express my feelings in that regard. But if anyone uploaded videos about killing sprees on women and labelling that we would have had the same discussion already in GTA3.

Deleted member 27234 · Nov 13, 2018

Razmos said:
Are you taking the piss? Don't be so naive.
He made a whole series of videos about this, killing the feminist in various ways. Then when he got banned and got reinstated he made a video deporting a mexican, delivering a black man to the KKK and attacking a character he labelled as gay.

No, I'm not naive. I'm just not hopping to conclusions. He has videos doing a plethora of things seen as mundane and non-controversial (obviously that goes without saying but considering how much people read into things it's worth mentioning). Some spoilers in the videos so view at your own discretion:

- Finding incestuous hillbillies and then killing them both
- Beating up the mayor of Strawberry
- Hunting cannibals
- Punching Hitler off a cliff
- Beating up Adolf Hitler
- Several videos of encounters with KKK members (one where he just hacks away at them with a machete)
- Exposing a slave owner (he also comments saying he chose to let him live as punishment for the pain he caused others).
- Also a video showing the gay romance between Alexios and the Blacksmith.

When you look at the whole picture, it's not a black and white situation of "oh this guy is clearly promoting some sort of hateful agenda towards minorities and women," especially with the above in consideration. That he came back from his temporary ban and immediately created two videos doing controversial things only vindicates my original suspicion that he's just not a very smart person, or doesn't understand the kind of audience he is attracting to his videos. Probably both.

Shirrako's motives are nebulous at best, and I am not saying that there aren't weirdos out there with obviously nefarious motives and intentions - I just don't think this guy is it.

sirap said:
It's called context, or are you being deliberately obtuse?

nope.avi

David___ said:
I am shocked this account is a year old with only 18 posts

:)

Deleted member 25108 · Nov 13, 2018

Because people consider Rockstar games as life simulations, not videogames.

Its kinda how people got into arms about mortal kombat, but slasher films get a collective shrug.

L Thammy · Nov 13, 2018

It should not be this difficult for people to tell the difference between criticism of specific members of the gaming community and a broader attack on games or gaming, but here we are.

Wink784 · Nov 13, 2018

It's cause R* games are the hugest. You'll have noticed that the more mainstream something is, the bigger a potential controversy is gonna be. It's also not surprising at all considering the current political climates all across the world. Even sensible people are worried about some silly videogame violence, because this particular controversy plays to a crowd that would be more than happy to act out on real violence and put our progress in humanitarian terms back a couple centuries, or so it seems.

FlintSpace · Nov 13, 2018

I think mainly due to them being the first one to do so in a very real looking graphics , and as their legacy dictates their games becomes larger than life for Mass media to latch onto.

Watch dogs had visible vagina in their NPC's but the world didn't burst into fire with controversy because the game was not that popular. Rockstar games, always are.

Blackbird · Nov 13, 2018

Motsie said:
No, I'm not naive. I'm just not hopping to conclusions. He has videos doing a plethora of things seen as mundane and non-controversial (obviously that goes without saying but considering how much people read into things it's worth mentioning). Some spoilers in the videos so view at your own discretion:

- Finding incestuous hillbillies and then killing them both
- Beating up the mayor of Strawberry
- Hunting cannibals
- Punching Hitler off a cliff
- Beating up Adolf Hitler
- Several videos of encounters with KKK members (one where he just hacks away at them with a machete)
- Exposing a slave owner (he also comments saying he chose to let him live as punishment for the pain he caused others).
- Also a video showing the gay romance between Alexios and the Blacksmith.

When you look at the whole picture, it's not a black and white situation of "oh this guy is clearly promoting some sort of hateful agenda towards minorities and women," especially with the above in consideration. That he came back from his temporary ban and immediately created two videos doing controversial things only vindicates my original suspicion that he's just not a very smart person, or doesn't understand the kind of audience he is attracting to his videos. Probably both.

Shirrako's motives are nebulous at best, and I am not saying that there aren't weirdos out there with obviously nefarious motives and intentions - I just don't think this guy is it.

nope.avi

:)

You "forgot" to mention another one of his hits "beating up Chinese man", or "what happens if you bring a black man to KKK?":

Clearly everybody else is "jumping to conclusions" by saying that a catalogue of toxic content is toxic, not you trying to give the benefit of the doubt for a random guy because well, "he's just not a very smart person".

Let's pretend he didn't liked youtube comments spreading hate and promoting his toxicity. You see, it wasn't his true intentions, really, he didn't mean it:

Well, at least he didn't said anything publicly revealing his agenda:

Sloth Guevara · Nov 13, 2018

Imitation Of Life said:
Sure they can, but do they really want to get involved? The answer is no. Their games always have controversial content.

It would be a great way to show that they are against this sort of shitty behavior.
So why wouldn't they?

Given the history they have with problematic women npc I'd say it would be the good thing to do.

Amnixia · Nov 13, 2018

Blackbird said:
You "forgot" to mention another one of his hits "beating up Chinese man", or "what happens if you bring a black man to KKK?":

Clearly everybody else is "jumping to conclusions" by saying that a catalogue of toxic content is toxic, not you trying to give the benefit of the doubt for a random guy because well, "he's just not a very smart person".

Let's pretend he didn't liked youtube comments spreading hate and promoting his toxicity. You see, it wasn't his true intentions, really, he didn't mean it:

Well, at least he didn't said anything publicly revealing his agenda:

Exactly, this youtuber has shown (on social media too) to be a alt-right shitbag and the titles of his videos clearly show it in many, many, cases.

As others have already said, most of the controversy isn't about Rockstar but people like Shirrako using the tools provided by them to "own feminists/sjws" and YouTube assumingley taking the right action for once (banning this asshole) but then again showing their true colours and unbanning him just a (few) day(s) later.

Edit:

YouTube: where talking about trans rights get you demonitized or even hidden from being found but where videos propogating violence against LGTB, feminists and minorities are perfectly fine.

umbrella corp. · Nov 13, 2018

Im someone who never gets offended by things happening in video games but that video where he beats up and brings a black guy to the KKK burning cross meeting is sick, very sick. Even disturbing.

Vela · Nov 13, 2018

Shirrako is a protofascist.

Amauri14 · Nov 13, 2018

I mean, the reason for this one is understandable as the person who was doing this is a misogynist, and he was killing a suffragette. The other occasions like on the previous GTAs or that controversy about domestic violence on Detroit: Become Human were more about misinformed people talking as if those actions were the main objective of the game.

L Thammy · Nov 13, 2018

By the way, if you look for the intersection between people who play video games and people who regularly use the term "SJW", you find a bunch of people who tried to team up with the guy who used to rag about GTA being violent all the time. You also find the guy posting the RDR2 videos.

eso76 · Nov 13, 2018

808s & Villainy said:
After the brief (maybe still ongoing?) storm of a few Youtubers killing a feminist NPC in RDR2

Very few attacked the game for letting you.
The problem was turning it into a series on YT and targeting a "feminist" specifically; where does one draw the line between just fooling around in a videogame and sexist propaganda ?

Zephy · Nov 13, 2018

The problem isn't with the game itself.

Some people are using the game as a means to communicate their hate speech.

It's like, there's nothing wrong with language or letters, but some words or phrases are bad. People who extend the issue to say that there is a problem with the game have missed the point.

Chuchubabe · Nov 13, 2018

The articles giving him attention got his videos 100 times more popular, maybe stop giving him attention.

Paquete_PT · Nov 13, 2018

Have you seen that guy's youtube chanel and videos OP? It wasn't just "a feminist", he hd several videos of him killing women in the game to spread hate. It's all down to context

ThreepQuest64 · Nov 13, 2018

StuBurns said:
R* are the biggest, so of course they have the biggest target on their backs.

I think this is it. Partly. You could kill children in Fallout 1 and 2 (not in the German version though, because children were cut out completely). Maybe it was because there wasn't web 2.0 back then, but I don't remember any big news or rumours about it.

On the other hand, you didn't see videos of GTA3, back then, showing only prostitutes to be killed in several different ways; you seen videos with everyone being killed in several different ways. This, however, with RDR2 people, with a high number of viewers, constantly killed feminists, in an age where this is a contemporary issue, to trigger 'SJWs' or anyone that can be triggered. And because they succeeded, it is such a news and big deal.

Mubrik_ · Nov 13, 2018

Vela said:
I wonder why it's controversial that a culture (gaming) known for its cruel hatred of women is provided with a game where women are 1) designed for the pleasure of heterosexual (white) men and 2) can be beat up and hurt.

Add to the fact that Rockstar continues to only put men as the main characters in their games and it's clear that their games are emblematic of patriarchal norms.

Not sure But are you blaming Rockstar for creating a game?

JahIthBer · Nov 13, 2018

Vela said:
I wonder why it's controversial that a culture (gaming) known for its cruel hatred of women is provided with a game where women are 1) designed for the pleasure of heterosexual (white) men and 2) can be beat up and hurt.

Add to the fact that Rockstar continues to only put men as the main characters in their games and it's clear that their games are emblematic of patriarchal norms.

Gonna have to disagree on the White part when Japan exists. No Western studio could design 2B from Nier & get away it. The Western side of video games had these problems for sure but really have tried to improve on them in the last few years, Japan is making no such concessions though & still keeps designing Women as sex objects half the time.

Vela · Nov 13, 2018

Mubrik_ said:
Not sure But are you blaming Rockstar for creating a game?

I'm just saying that Rockstar and the filthy rich Housers have a large responsibility for why gaming culture is as misogynistic as it is. And they do not seem to care at all about the fact that gaming culture and many of the prominent video games such as GTA and RDR are steeped in an objectification if not hatred of women.

Rockstar could've easily taken a stance against misogyny in games culture, either via public standing the last 4 years or maybe, just maybe, feature a woman as a protagonist in their huge trend-setting blockbuster game.

But instead they once again, for the millionth time, choose to go with a white gruff dude. Which tells me that they're simply a shitty company that do not care about changing the culture in which they operate and that they have no problem reproducing racism and misogyny.

saenima · Nov 13, 2018

David___ said:
I am shocked this account is a year old with only 18 posts

Shocked i tells ya!

OP, go take a look at that asshole's other RDR2 video titles and you'll get it. It has nothing to do with Rockstar or even women in particular. It's about spreading hate.

Sailent · Nov 13, 2018

torre_avenue said:
Because people are moving the goalposts.

It was never about being able to kill female NPCs, it was repeatedly killing one female NPC who was a suffragette in numerous horrific ways to pander to a certain anti-SJW crowd.

To anyone trying to say it was actually about something else is being willfully stupid.

This.

It's really, really naive to think this is """"just"""" "killing female npcs".

Triggerhappytel · Nov 13, 2018

Deepwater said:
nothing wrong with killing NPCs, regardless of who they are.

lots of things wrong when you feel the need to create content around specifically killing groups of people that also face violence in real life for being XYZ group.

Yeah, this.

Khanimus said:
Because the misogynist parts of the fanbase thought it was funnier to kill the prostitute and take her money, and so that became "the thing". Rockstar never took issue with that.

And to this day, they still have not written a female playable character.

But also this. They really should have released a game with a female protagonist by now. They're probably one of the only publishers who haven't. In fact, from a quick glance at Wikipedia it looks like Take Two as a whole are extremely poor (if not totally absent from) representating women in games.

Imitation Of Life · Nov 13, 2018

Sloth Guevara said:
It would be a great way to show that they are against this sort of shitty behavior.
So why wouldn't they?

Given the history they have with problematic women npc I'd say it would be the good thing to do.

Would probably be more prudent to remove the option from the game than try to police way the people play it. I don't see any way they can effectively police it. And they won't remove it since the moral choices are a huge part of their games.

Sloth Guevara · Nov 13, 2018

Imitation Of Life said:
Would probably be more prudent to remove the option from the game than try to police way the people play it. I don't see any way they can effectively police it. And they won't remove it since the moral choices are a huge part of their games.

I'm not saying they should police how people play.
I'm saying they should take responsibility by not allowing bigots to use their game as a platform for hate speech.

Sure there may be a load of others that do the same thing but it would speak volumes to what Rockstar think of it.

MisterHero · Nov 13, 2018

Forum posters are quick to shit on developers for designing overly sexual NPCs, but will defend R* for letting the player treat NPCs in ways that would be, at the very least, dehumanizing in real life.

how dare you show unmodded footage to make my $60 game look bad

Bear and bird · Nov 13, 2018

MisterHero said:
Forum posters are quick to shit on developers for designing overly sexual NPCs, but will defend R* for letting the player treat NPCs in ways that would be, at the very least, dehumanizing in real life.

how dare you show unmodded footage to make my $60 game look bad

Again, this isn't about the game. It's about what the footage is used for. The issue lies with the message behind the content the youtuber and his ilk makes and spreads on the net.

Deleted member 11426 · Nov 13, 2018

umbrella corp. said:
Im someone who never gets offended by things happening in video games but that video where he beats up and brings a black guy to the KKK burning cross meeting is sick, very sick. Even disturbing.

Nothing even happens, and the KKK is portrayed as morons in the game that get themselves killed.

Luis Carretero · Nov 13, 2018

Cranster said:
The youtube controversy was all down to context. The guy was literally spreading hate. Now if it was something in a general gameplay video that didn't include "killing feminist" in the title then the guy wouldn't have been banned at all.

This.

You can kill women in this game (some will shoot at you first) and that's in line with the game. The thing is the context in which the video was upload and the purposeful of specifically kill women in the game for misogynistic and hateful reasons.

Morrigan · Nov 13, 2018

BlacJack said:
That directly implies that the ability to kill female NPCs is bad because of the outside circumstances. It doesn't really imply that the uploaders of said content should be shut down.

It doesn't "directly imply" any such thing. In fact, you've got it completely backwards. Lashley was explaining to the OP that the controversy was the because of misogynists Youtubers using game cherry-picked game footage as hate speech, and not because of the game itself. That you actually got the opposite meaning of Lashley's post when his words were crystal clear is kinda baffling.

PlanetSmasher · Nov 13, 2018

Zephyriel said:
The problem isn't with the game itself.

Some people are using the game as a means to communicate their hate speech.

It's like, there's nothing wrong with language or letters, but some words or phrases are bad. People who extend the issue to say that there is a problem with the game have missed the point.

Pretty much. The game never makes you murder women or kill feminists or anything of the sort. Instead, disgusting weasels with a specific hateful agenda are using the freedom provided by the engine to do horrible things and profit off of it.

The (truly pathetic) irony is that if those idiots actually played the game instead of just using it as a vehicle to deliver racism and misogyny, they'd realize the character they're playing as hates people like them.

Crossing Eden · Nov 13, 2018

Lashley said:
Because its typically uploaded onto video sites by misogynists and incels

Khanimus said:
Because the misogynist parts of the fanbase thought it was funnier to kill the prostitute and take her money, and so that became "the thing". Rockstar never took issue with that.

And to this day, they still have not written a female playable character.

torre_avenue said:
Because people are moving the goalposts.

It was never about being able to kill female NPCs, it was repeatedly killing one female NPC who was a suffragette in numerous horrific ways to pander to a certain anti-SJW crowd.

To anyone trying to say it was actually about something else is being willfully stupid.

^^^^

JuicyPlayer · Nov 13, 2018

On its own its nothing. When you create a video of yourself doing it titled "Killing feminists" thats where the problems happen because it shows that you're a misogynistic POS.

mclem · Nov 13, 2018

808s & Villainy said:
But they don't. Nothing in their games even encourages you to specifically target NPCs that belong to real life vulnerable groups

One small counterexample from Redemption 1, which is deliberately tongue-in-cheek and leaning into tropes, but still a bit uncomfortable:

BladeX · Nov 13, 2018

If it had babies I would attack babies. It is a videogame. I understand the problem but if the game allows it it shouldnt be considered something that tries to advance a specific agenda. I mean it is always like this with rockstar games.

Edit: The guy who made the video? Yeah thats another issue. The fact that the game allows it though shouldnt be a problem since all NPCs can be treated like this.

Crossing Eden · Nov 13, 2018

BlacJack said:
So because evil people exist all women NPCs and characters should be removed from games?

Turn off gamerbrain.exe

Zen · Nov 13, 2018

Personally always turned me off from playing GTA. Murdering innocent people in cold blood on the street, and street walkers who are historically women in a vulnerable position didn't sit well with me as a kid and doesn't now

PlanetSmasher · Nov 13, 2018

Zen said:
Personally always turned me off from playing GTA. Murdering innocent people in cold blood on the street, and street walkers who are historically women in a vulnerable position didn't sit well with me as a kid and doesn't now

GTA never really asked you to murder prostitutes though. That's just the way the news talked about the games.

BladeX · Nov 13, 2018

It is not like the game doesnt allow you to do that with any NPC. And the rare racist NPCs there are bigot NPCs there are innocents. The game treats everyone the same. How the player chooses to do that is not a problem for the game I believe.

Schreckweg 5000 · Nov 13, 2018

Brikky Freeman said:
Because people consider Rockstar games as life simulations, not videogames.

Its kinda how people got into arms about mortal kombat, but slasher films get a collective shrug.

Film criticism, outside of films with a huge male nerd demographic, is normalized. If a movie tends to overly rely on violence, it will get shredded by critics. See the Saw sequels.

Videogame criticism is far from normalized, that is why criticism gets far more likely vitriol in response.

Horror movies don't get a shrug. You just learned to tolerate the criticism of them.

Crossing Eden · Nov 13, 2018

Chuchubabe said:
The articles giving him attention got his videos 100 times more popular, maybe stop giving him attention.

Surely youtube recommending the video for even so much as watching anything red dead redemption 2 related, (resulting in the video having more than a million views way before articles were written about it), had NOTHING to do with it.

ty_hot · Nov 13, 2018

If you can't understand on your own then I dont think anyone can explain to you. Lacks empathy.

Zen · Nov 13, 2018

PlanetSmasher said:
GTA never really asked you to murder prostitutes though. That's just the way the news talked about the games.

It's not part of the campaign yeah. But having played it with my friend in middle school, nobody cares about the campaign. They want to drive around and shoot things, and one of the favored activities for a lot of these kids is running over hookers after banging them. My nephew loves to do this.

PlanetSmasher · Nov 13, 2018

Zen said:
It's not part of the campaign yeah. But having played it with my friend in middle school, nobody cares about the campaign. They want to drive around and shoot things, and one of the favored activities for a lot of these kids is running over hookers after banging them. My nephew loves to do this.

Sure. But if you played the game you wouldn't have to do that if you don't want to, that's all. You shouldn't seal yourself off from playing a game because other people do terrible things with the engine, but I completely understand feeling uncomfortable watching people do those terrible things.

Andrew Lucas · Nov 13, 2018

It's not, but the videos here are meant directly at Feminists, not just brainless killing complications, hence the "Killing Annoying Feminist..." in one of the many titles and the channel having history of being alt-right trash.

excelsiorlef · Nov 13, 2018

Chuchubabe said:
The articles giving him attention got his videos 100 times more popular, maybe stop giving him attention.

YouTube's algorithms which put them in everyone's suggested watch list did that.

Why is attacking female NPCs in Rockstar's games always so controversial?

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