• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Oct 27, 2017
488
There are a lot of film essays and analysis about women in horror films, and they mostly boil down to vulnerability. The idea is that women are socially allowed to be scared and experience a full range of emotions. When viewers, including male viewers, go to watch a horror movie and get that all important catharsis, it's easier for them to get that catharsis through the medium of the female MC. They're not directly comparing themselves to the character or subconsciously thinking she should man up. It basically allows them a safe way to experience vulnerability. Since this goes against the grain of most other films and the accepted wisdom of "men can't relate to women", it's a really fascinating thread to follow down the academic rabbit hole.
This makes a lot of sense. It's...sad, somehow that the only way to successfully allow many men conditioned by western society to engage in media and allow themselves to be vulnerable is to use a female protagonist as a conduit. Sad, but...right sounding.
But it makes a lot of sense that, if you like and are attracted to women, you might actually want to like the female characters you're attracted to. I don't think it has to be an entirely cynical thing either. Like it can be. I've seen that too. But there are plenty of examples of guy's media in Japan that have good female characters.
Yeah, I don't want to give the impression that Japanese media doesn't also just have completely trashy stuff with atrociously written, pandery characters, just that they seem to manage to successfully characterize women in stuff that's very, VERY aimed primarily at men on a pretty regular basis. I mean, my favorite game character this year came from a pair of SRPG-Visual Novels that are direct sequels to a decade old game with pornographic content (that still retained quite a bit of iffy stuff despite being on console this go-round). Granted, I'm so done with open world games at this point that I just can't with Horizon, and I don't count Estelle from Trails in the Sky the 3rd because she's not new at this point.
Someone mentioned Sakura Quest above, but it's (in my opinion) better counterpart Shirobako, about five female friends in their 20s trying to make it in the anime industry is classified as shonen. And it's not weird or fanservicey in telling it's story.
Shirobako is a heaven-sent gift, I swear.
Also demographic genre labels are weird and half the time barely mean anything other than what shelf something gets stuck on.
I learned a lot the day that I found out that demo labels in manga are exclusively a result of what magazine a comic is being serialized in and say nothing about actual content or real-world target audience.
It is interesting to see this connection between real-life perception and the framing through fictional characters, especially considering how often our concerns are dismissed as "it's just fiction, it has nothing to do with real life".
This is only tangentially related, but you kick started my memory here. I'm genuinely curious how much of the costume/design disconnect happens because of disparities in cultural perception of the fourth wall, as it were (I'm not really sure how to express this, really). Interviews and reactions to unexpected western controversies and such over the years combined with the general trend for theatrical exaggeration and melodrama in their media has given me a pretty strong impression that Japanese people might see the kind of bizarre costumes their characters often wear less like things an actual person would ever wear and more like exaggerated stage costumes. We in the present-day west prefer extreme naturalistic acting and presentation in our media, but some of the divide in how audacious stuff gets might be explained if they consider what their characters are wearing in a lot of this stuff less as practical outfits and more as literal costuming.

Wondering if anybody more in the know than my American self has any thoughts on this.
 

kaytee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
440
USA
Actually going to mention this, because I actually think it's funny, but when I was growing up as a wee nipper, the games I played which actually you know had competant women characters doing interesting stuff, were Barbie computer games. There were detective ones, a spy one, an undersea diver. I actually solved a murder in one of the games. I mean other computer games for kids often didn't really have many female characters. I mean Peach in Mario had to be rescued all the time, she didn't really do anyhting. I played the Sims which let you be any gender. I can't really think of many, though I'm sure I'm missing some out? But I loved the Barbie games when I was young, cus there was actually a girl character who could do stuff. But even then for some reason I thought those games didn't count as they weren't "proper" games. It took a long time for me to release that I really loved playing video games and even now I'm still hesitant to call myself a gamer.

I had some of the Detective Barbie games and loved them! My favorite was the carnival one, because that was the one I got the farthest in.

Look at her go:

tumblr_ntcpgnySMo1qzk2upo2_500.png


Detective Barbie was kind of a badass. She didn't take shit from anyone. I loved those and the Nancy Drew games, but I was miserable at those.
 

kiriku

Member
Oct 27, 2017
947
Are there many (any?) examples of horror where a male protagonist is utterly helpless and vulnerable throughout, and doesn't end up relying on violence to survive?

Amnesia maybe? Although it's first person, so it's mostly just the voice that makes it clear it's a male protagonist.

EDIT: I was too late with my reply, so I'll add A Machine for Pigs as well then. Although there are barely any threats in that game anyway.
And I would say Observer as well, at least 3-4 hours into the game. Just like in Amnesia, you are screwed if the enemies find you and there are no ways to defend yourself.
 
Last edited:

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,402
You're not comparing apples to apples here. Sexual violence and the typical violence you find between men are not the same thing and don't arise from the same mental processes.

In order to rape a woman a man needs to be pretty sure he is going to be able to overpower her if she fights back. To stab or shoot someone or whatnot, even just to get into a fistfight... it's not the same thing. You don't need to be able to physically restrict or dominate their body in the same way. Granted not all rapes require physical force, just threats. But if the man consciously knows that he's attempting to rape a woman, that strength difference is a huge part of what will give him the confidence to do it.
I'm not sure how psychowave's comparison is wrong, considering male-on-male rape is also far more common than female-on-female rape...
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,745
I had some of the Detective Barbie games and loved them! My favorite was the carnival one, because that was the one I got the farthest in.

Look at her go:

tumblr_ntcpgnySMo1qzk2upo2_500.png


Detective Barbie was kind of a badass. She didn't take shit from anyone. I loved those and the Nancy Drew games, but I was miserable at those.
I loved the resort one, cus I got to catch a muderer on a jetski. That's just badass!
 

Bán

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,307
I'm not sure how psychowave's comparison is wrong, considering male-on-male rape is also far more common than female-on-female rape...

Wow, really? I find that impossible to believe, just given the numbers of straight vs gay men. More common? Even adjusted to percentages, that would still astonish me. Do you have the figures? Because obviously that would be one hell of a blow to my argument there.

It really does go against everything I believe about rape if men of the same size and strength are raping each other at greater rates than men rape women.

And psychowave didn't mention male-on-male sexual violence. My point about it being different from typical violence still stands.
 

Hat22

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,652
Canada
Since this post is already ridiculously long I'll kind of just explain my perspective and the basis to a lot of my opinions on the subject (which I should have done at the beginning tbh). I am actually a trans girl, and one that is into women at that. I appreciate good, tasteful, and fitting sexy designs for double the reason. I both obviously have the hots for a good body, but also, I envy their bodies in a way. Most of the time in a game with options for clothing or who you play as, I always try to play as a cute looking girl because it's just eye candy and it's actually a coping mechanism for me. I dislike myself in real life so gaming is actually a huge huge part of how I cope. Having feminine costumes gives me life and is just the way I play. I am also a giant Soulsborne fan and I love their system how every outfit is equal because it fits with one of my tenets, but actually a minor nitpick I have with it is I wish there was some more form fitting feminine stuff. I think the beefy completely covering Havel's armor or other Gundam looking power trip stuff should be in the game, but I also do enjoy being a badass sexy princess from time to time. In dark souls 1 as well as bloodborne as soon as I could get the dress I wore it.

So to end this, I'll just say what I want out of the industry. I don't want any super puritan standards introduced since as I said I do like how common cute designs are, but I think games should offer something for everyone to make everyone comfortable. Let people put a guy in a dress, or make him sexy as hell. I don't care sexuality isn't something to be afraid of even if it's not yours. Let people dress their girl in normal clothes or in full plate armor, or even lingerie. Having a range of options in games that allow it such as RPGs I think is key to a good experience. Make it equal, make it tasteful. Don't make any default designs too stupid without having a reason for it. Let people live their fantasies whatever it may be.

I'm confused a bit by the idea that you don't want puritanical standards but also want an environment where everybody is comfortable. There are people, for many different reasons, that outright reject sexualization. You can't appeal to both prudes/puritans and people that want to celebrate sexuality. There is no middle ground.
 

Deleted member 24766

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
242
I'm confused a bit by the idea that you don't want puritanical standards but also want an environment where everybody is comfortable. There are people, for many different reasons, that outright reject sexualization. You can't appeal to both prudes/puritans and people that want to celebrate sexuality. There is no middle ground.

Wouldn't the closest "middle-ground" be to celebrate and buy the type of media that you prefer? To try and entice developers to produce content that you would like to see in future media in a clear, concise, and non-condescending manner? All the while not buying or outright ignoring media that doesn't fit your tastes? (I know there is another word that is better suited instead of non-condescending, but I can't seem to place it).

I love JRPGs and I am excited for Xenoblade, but games like Omega Labyrinth Z do not fit my tastes so I won't be purchasing that product. There is so much out these days that it shouldn't be too hard to find something that fits your tastes. Not every product is made for every person. Some are targeted to a particular demographic, like Omega Labyrinth Z is targeted to those who want to feel something in their trousers.
 
Last edited:

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,402
It really does go against everything I believe about rape if men of the same size and strength are raping each other at greater rates than men rape women.
Did you misread? I said male-on-male vs female-on-female, not vs male-on-female.

Edit: I admit I don't have stats handy just now, but the overwhelming presence of male-on-male rape in prison (as well as the military) seems to suggest this is true. Whereas women raping other women seem rarer and confined to particular situations of abusive lesbian relationships. I'm getting rather off-topic here though...

And psychowave didn't mention male-on-male sexual violence. My point about it being different from typical violence still stands.
Psychowave's point was about general violence (which can include but is not limited to sexual violence). Your argument is that women are victims of violence (including sexual violence) more often because they are statistically physically weaker. You claim the disparity in physical power is a major factor, perhaps even the leading factor, in gendered violence. Psychowave's rebuttal is that men assault or commit violence against other men just as much (no strength disparity here), compared to women-on-women violence (again, no strength disparity).
 

A.J.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,435
Her lower half is visible through the slightly transparent text box. Here's a picture of an earlier ascension (again: NSFW) without the text box.

Apparently nearly having her labia exposed is a consistent thing with her.

Eh, I don't think that's accurate - it started with pornography present as an element, but the main draw of the original VN was never the (badly written) porn. Moreover, it's not porn anymore, so the inclusion of a design like this raises a lot of red flags.

I really, really would prefer they would drop all pretense than do something like this.

The problem with separating something like FGO from the main franchise is that there are several extremely problematic spin off series where the creators come off as at best pedophiliac. Just take a look at Jack the Ripper from Apocrypha or any of Prisma Illya. (Don't actually look up any of this shit, it's abysmal)

The Fate series really is a series that represents the word problematic to a T.
 

DragonKeeper

Member
Nov 14, 2017
1,610
Thought Experiment:

Remember FF13? There was this kid named Hope that everybody and their extended family hated because he "whined" about his situation. I liked Hope and found his reactions to the messed up situation he was in pretty realistic (if not entirely reasonable). What do you think general consensus of this character would be if he'd been a girl instead of a boy?
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
This makes a lot of sense. It's...sad, somehow that the only way to successfully allow many men conditioned by western society to engage in media and allow themselves to be vulnerable is to use a female protagonist as a conduit. Sad, but...right sounding.

Yeah, I don't want to give the impression that Japanese media doesn't also just have completely trashy stuff with atrociously written, pandery characters, just that they seem to manage to successfully characterize women in stuff that's very, VERY aimed primarily at men on a pretty regular basis. I mean, my favorite game character this year came from a pair of SRPG-Visual Novels that are direct sequels to a decade old game with pornographic content (that still retained quite a bit of iffy stuff despite being on console this go-round). Granted, I'm so done with open world games at this point that I just can't with Horizon, and I don't count Estelle from Trails in the Sky the 3rd because she's not new at this point.

Shirobako is a heaven-sent gift, I swear.

I learned a lot the day that I found out that demo labels in manga are exclusively a result of what magazine a comic is being serialized in and say nothing about actual content or real-world target audience.

This is only tangentially related, but you kick started my memory here. I'm genuinely curious how much of the costume/design disconnect happens because of disparities in cultural perception of the fourth wall, as it were (I'm not really sure how to express this, really). Interviews and reactions to unexpected western controversies and such over the years combined with the general trend for theatrical exaggeration and melodrama in their media has given me a pretty strong impression that Japanese people might see the kind of bizarre costumes their characters often wear less like things an actual person would ever wear and more like exaggerated stage costumes. We in the present-day west prefer extreme naturalistic acting and presentation in our media, but some of the divide in how audacious stuff gets might be explained if they consider what their characters are wearing in a lot of this stuff less as practical outfits and more as literal costuming.

Wondering if anybody more in the know than my American self has any thoughts on this.
Reminds me of these optional outfits from the last Fatal Frame game, I remember them causing a bit of a stir to the point where they didn't get released in one region or another.
tfnZRM.jpeg
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Thought Experiment:

Remember FF13? There was this kid named Hope that everybody and their extended family hated because he "whined" about his situation. I liked Hope and found his reactions to the messed up situation he was in pretty realistic (if not entirely reasonable). What do you think general consensus of this character would be if he'd been a girl instead of a boy?
Good question. There would probably be a lot less accusations of whining.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,008
Canada
There are a lot of film essays and analysis about women in horror films, and they mostly boil down to vulnerability. The idea is that women are socially allowed to be scared and experience a full range of emotions. When viewers, including male viewers, go to watch a horror movie and get that all important catharsis, it's easier for them to get that catharsis through the medium of the female MC. They're not directly comparing themselves to the character or subconsciously thinking she should man up. It basically allows them a safe way to experience vulnerability. Since this goes against the grain of most other films and the accepted wisdom of "men can't relate to women", it's a really fascinating thread to follow down the academic rabbit hole.
Ah, that's interesting and also pretty disheartening. Sounds like something that would be well worth reading up on.

Anyways, thanks for all the different perspectives on this. It's pretty interesting for me since survival horror is easily my favourite genre, especially from the earlier gens where this was more prevalent.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,585
Thought Experiment:

Remember FF13? There was this kid named Hope that everybody and their extended family hated because he "whined" about his situation. I liked Hope and found his reactions to the messed up situation he was in pretty realistic (if not entirely reasonable). What do you think general consensus of this character would be if he'd been a girl instead of a boy?
I think he would have come off as the demur girl trope, the bookish girl who's too scared to take things on herself and needs to spend most of the game relying on other people, only to come into herself at the end. Which is what Hope does. It would be, and is, expected. I think people give hope a lot of shit because the trope of the teenage boy in a team is not that of being the weak willed, uncertain character. People's expectations were misplaced, even though the traditional "GUY" archetype is there....in spades...with Snow.

Similar experiment, I hate Lightning. She is a violently impulsive idiot that spends most of the first game blaming other people for dumb mistake she either made or helped others make and her reactions to being called out are down right bipolar.
If she was a man, would her behavior be seen as acceptable?

I asked some people this before but never got a real answer because they were all too taken with how she looked and her waifu status for any sort of actual criticism to happen.
 

Deleted member 24766

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
242
Thought Experiment:

Remember FF13? There was this kid named Hope that everybody and their extended family hated because he "whined" about his situation. I liked Hope and found his reactions to the messed up situation he was in pretty realistic (if not entirely reasonable). What do you think general consensus of this character would be if he'd been a girl instead of a boy?

He was a poorly written and insufferable twat in an already mediocre game. I highly doubt that would have changed if he was genderswapped to a female.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
Are there many (any?) examples of horror where a male protagonist is utterly helpless and vulnerable throughout, and doesn't end up relying on violence to survive?

Pretty much all "walking simulator" horror games are that. There's also Silent Hill Shattered Memories.

For more niche horror games, vulnerable males are arguably the norm.
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
So in terms of this topic as a whole I have always felt like I've been kind of a middle ground on this position. It always felt like everyone around me online either sees any instance of female sexualization as a failure or the people who are the opposite (who I haven't really seen much in my huge lurk of this thread) who just say that it's a video game and you shouldn't care about anything as the OP acknowledged. The position I've always taken is that video games are art, and designs should artistically make sense. That includes sexy designs. As long as it suits the environment of the game and the character I think it's okay.

Since I am a huge HUGE Xenoblade fan and that was the focus here for a while I'll use that as my main example. I personally find a lot of the XC2 designs to be devoid of taste, especially that bear girl or whatever she is. Pyra I already barely liked but this blade actually made me... upset. It's just so unfitting and so stupid. Sure there's a very small chance that one may even see her in the game but Pyra is always there, and the bear girl is still in the game, and sooo many other blades seem like fetish bait and it feels wrong. I actually thought that Xenoblade X did the sexy aspect some of the best. Because of the idea of fashion slots, you can wear a huge amount of armor, sexy or non. And it felt to me like most of it was just cool sci fi shit and you had to actively try to wear the playboy costumes. In fact, a decent amount of the male costumes included showcasing their hindquarters in very tight clothes or even bare in the original Japanese release. Lots of ways to keep them shirtless, etc. And you could keep everyone fully clothed if you wish, and all the default outfits felt perfectly reasonable and just cool.

Something that often goes unmentioned with Xenoblade 1 is actually that I felt it was kind of subtly sexist in a couple ways. It's near a perfect game to me but it still has some questionable stuff in it that acts as an unavoidable stain that I think Xenoblade 2 brought back but worse. Sharla is the cardinal sin for sure of that game. EVERY costume of hers had to be slutty looking in some way it was so immersion breaking and tasteless. Sharla was such a motherly character and dressing her like a stripper no matter what you wear just because she has big boobs hurt to watch. The other thing I disliked was about the writing which isn't too relevant to this thread but I noticed most of the dialogue between the female characters in XC1 was just about who was gonna date Shulk first and that was kind of annoying. Xenoblade X I felt also fixed this.

Back to Xenoblade 2, I just think the art is ugly a lot of the time. Like I don't think as some people in this thread no offense to any of you that showing some thigh, wearing heels, or not wearing completely covering armor is even something to second glance it, but maybe I'm just numbed to it all. But not much of the Xenoblade 2 designs even make sense, just like Sharla but on a bigger scale. Even Pyra's Mythra form still looks stupid even if in a more elegant way. I basically have a couple flexible cardinal rules when it comes to sexualization, one is what I mentioned about about X which is equality of the sexes. Another would be realisticness to the character which was already mentioned with Bayonetta and even Twintelle. Another good example to this I think would be Charlotte from Fire Emblem Fates. Yes, I am defending Fates. Charlotte was basically wearing a bikini constantly and shoving her boobs in every character's face, but in reality she was actually just trying to be a gold digger to support her family and is a remorseless manipulative woman. I honestly thought she was one of the few well written characters in the game and her design was just so, her. Male gaze or whatever I don't really care sorry if it sounds dismissive, I think as long as a sexy design makes sense for a setting I accept it. Like Yakuza was mentioned earlier and it's just a grimey, silly game so I think putting literal porn in it combined well.

https://twitter.com/XenobladeJP/status/935314010668277760 Now take a look at this girl. She's also from Xenoblade 2 but by a specific artist, Nomura. He also did the art for the main villains which is really nice, I think his art actually fits the Xeno-theme a lot lot better than the standard tripe like Pyra or even Rex looking silly and ridiculous in a non-sexy way, and she actually looks cool which should be the goal. It's just such a messy game in terms of character design and someone mentioned above Takahashi had little say in what Otaku crap got put in which is a shame. I hope the game is good I truly do but I'll probably never get over these character models.

Since this post is already ridiculously long I'll kind of just explain my perspective and the basis to a lot of my opinions on the subject (which I should have done at the beginning tbh). I am actually a trans girl, and one that is into women at that. I appreciate good, tasteful, and fitting sexy designs for double the reason. I both obviously have the hots for a good body, but also, I envy their bodies in a way. Most of the time in a game with options for clothing or who you play as, I always try to play as a cute looking girl because it's just eye candy and it's actually a coping mechanism for me. I dislike myself in real life so gaming is actually a huge huge part of how I cope. Having feminine costumes gives me life and is just the way I play. I am also a giant Soulsborne fan and I love their system how every outfit is equal because it fits with one of my tenets, but actually a minor nitpick I have with it is I wish there was some more form fitting feminine stuff. I think the beefy completely covering Havel's armor or other Gundam looking power trip stuff should be in the game, but I also do enjoy being a badass sexy princess from time to time. In dark souls 1 as well as bloodborne as soon as I could get the dress I wore it.

So to end this, I'll just say what I want out of the industry. I don't want any super puritan standards introduced since as I said I do like how common cute designs are, but I think games should offer something for everyone to make everyone comfortable. Let people put a guy in a dress, or make him sexy as hell. I don't care sexuality isn't something to be afraid of even if it's not yours. Let people dress their girl in normal clothes or in full plate armor, or even lingerie. Having a range of options in games that allow it such as RPGs I think is key to a good experience. Make it equal, make it tasteful. Don't make any default designs too stupid without having a reason for it. Let people live their fantasies whatever it may be.
Very eloquent post!
I agree with your conclusion entirely, too. I don't see an issue with allowing for cheesecake so long as it isn't automatically the overwhelming default (but then again I'm a dude so maybe I'm not qualified to speak on that) and people have options. That's the key thing I think a lot of people miss- people want options. And when your options are "game with entirely sexual designs" or "don't play games at all", it's kind of an issue.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
Thought Experiment:

Remember FF13? There was this kid named Hope that everybody and their extended family hated because he "whined" about his situation. I liked Hope and found his reactions to the messed up situation he was in pretty realistic (if not entirely reasonable). What do you think general consensus of this character would be if he'd been a girl instead of a boy?
Fairly certain Hope would still be seen as whiny. There would just be a certain subset that fetishized the character as being "fine" in spite of it.

I'm amazed there are people who like Lightning's character. She reminds me a lot of Superman in the Batman v Superman movies. Still, people would probably forgive her character flaws if she were a male a lot more readily.
 

kaytee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
440
USA
I loved the resort one, cus I got to catch a muderer on a jetski. That's just badass!

Yesss the jetski!


He must be stopped.

Yeah, I don't want to give the impression that Japanese media doesn't also just have completely trashy stuff with atrociously written, pandery characters, just that they seem to manage to successfully characterize women in stuff that's very, VERY aimed primarily at men on a pretty regular basis. I mean, my favorite game character this year came from a pair of SRPG-Visual Novels that are direct sequels to a decade old game with pornographic content (that still retained quite a bit of iffy stuff despite being on console this go-round). Granted, I'm so done with open world games at this point that I just can't with Horizon, and I don't count Estelle from Trails in the Sky the 3rd because she's not new at this point.

It's interesting to think about actually. There's a lot of ladies in this thread who like Japanese games, and I don't think that's any coincidence. Obviously, we're on an enthusiast forum, but I bet a lot of us had trouble finding any female characters at all in Western games. But there have always been a lot in Japanese games. It doesn't mean Japanese devs considered us any more of an audience than Western devs, but the end result was different.

I'm confused a bit by the idea that you don't want puritanical standards but also want an environment where everybody is comfortable. There are people, for many different reasons, that outright reject sexualization. You can't appeal to both prudes/puritans and people that want to celebrate sexuality. There is no middle ground.

I'm perfectly happy to celebrate sexuality, but the objectification of women in video games is a far cry from any celebration I can think of.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,420
The English Wilderness
Thought Experiment:

Remember FF13? There was this kid named Hope that everybody and their extended family hated because he "whined" about his situation. I liked Hope and found his reactions to the messed up situation he was in pretty realistic (if not entirely reasonable). What do you think general consensus of this character would be if he'd been a girl instead of a boy?

Same thing happened with Neon Genesis Evangelion: teenage boy reacts pretty much how a teenage boy would react in the real world, never lives it down.
 

Patapuf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,424
I think he would have come off as the demur girl trope, the bookish girl who's too scared to take things on herself and needs to spend most of the game relying on other people, only to come into herself at the end. Which is what Hope does. It would be, and is, expected. I think people give hope a lot of shit because the trope of the teenage boy in a team is not that of being the weak willed, uncertain character. People's expectations were misplaced, even though the traditional "GUY" archetype is there....in spades...with Snow.

Similar experiment, I hate Lightning. She is a violently impulsive idiot that spends most of the first game blaming other people for dumb mistake she either made or helped others make and her reactions to being called out are down right bipolar.
If she was a man, would her behavior be seen as acceptable?

I asked some people this before but never got a real answer because they were all too taken with how she looked and her waifu status for any sort of actual criticism to happen.

Eh, Hope and lighting and most of the rest of the cast is just really badly characterised and the character moments of hope fall horribly flat because they are not believable at all. Not even when his mother dies. I don't think gender comes into play all that much here. And the demure clutzy girl that's unable to do anything by herself is one of the most annoying JRPG (and anime) tropes there is.

Edit: Shinji is a much better example i think. Much better executed too.
 

ultra bawl

User requested ban
Banned
Nov 6, 2017
1,137
Wow, really? I find that impossible to believe, just given the numbers of straight vs gay men.
Not trying to derail with queer guy issues but just coming out of lurking here to note that - aside from the fact the comparison there was between m/m and f/f sexual assault - straight-identifying men can and do sexually assault other men. It's about violence and control, not necessarily sexual attraction.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,585
Eh, Hope and lighting and most of the rest of the cast is just really badly characterised and the character moments of hope fall horribly flat because they are not believable at all. Not even when his mother dies. I don't think gender comes into play all that much here. And the demure clutzy girl that's unable to do anything by herself is one of the most annoying JRPG (and anime) tropes there is.

Edit: Shinji is a much better example i think. Much better executed too.
To be fair though, her story gets GOOOOOD.

But yes, all of the characters, except maybe Fang, are poorly written and often exit the scene for no reason other than to move to plot forward. That game is bad.
 

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,608
There is so much out these days that it shouldn't be too hard to find something that fits your tastes. Not every product is made for every person.
Have you even been reading this thread? It's full of examples and stories about games that pull women out of the experience by shoehorning in pointless objectification where it wasn't expected or advertised.
Thought Experiment:

Remember FF13? There was this kid named Hope that everybody and their extended family hated because he "whined" about his situation. I liked Hope and found his reactions to the messed up situation he was in pretty realistic (if not entirely reasonable). What do you think general consensus of this character would be if he'd been a girl instead of a boy?
I think there is a similar issue with Tidus.
Tidus gets a lot of flak for being "whiny", and most of it seems to be coming from people who believed his shitty, abusive father's assessment of him as a 6 year old.
Tidus wasn't whiny as an adult, he was (perhaps annoyingly) cheerful and optimistic, he was self motivated, he was good at his career, he was open to learning. He got treated like an idiot for being in a world he didn't understand, while nobody bothered to ever explain it to him, and he still didn't hate them for it.

Now, I didn't like Hope, because I hate all angsty teens. But possibly he would get less hate from an average gamer if he'd been a girl. Not from me, though.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
I think he would have come off as the demur girl trope, the bookish girl who's too scared to take things on herself and needs to spend most of the game relying on other people, only to come into herself at the end. Which is what Hope does. It would be, and is, expected. I think people give hope a lot of shit because the trope of the teenage boy in a team is not that of being the weak willed, uncertain character. People's expectations were misplaced, even though the traditional "GUY" archetype is there....in spades...with Snow.

Similar experiment, I hate Lightning. She is a violently impulsive idiot that spends most of the first game blaming other people for dumb mistake she either made or helped others make and her reactions to being called out are down right bipolar.
If she was a man, would her behavior be seen as acceptable?

I asked some people this before but never got a real answer because they were all too taken with how she looked and her waifu status for any sort of actual criticism to happen.
Lightning came across as getting away with it because she's pretty and cool. I found it ridiculous that someone who has what looks like a military NCO badge on her shoulder and is widely described as strong and competent by much of her allies spends so much time sulking, attacking and blaming other people. It's petulant ignorance but Lightning gets away with attacking whoever she likes, whereas if Snow turned up, moaned at everyone then punched someone in the face everyone would think he was a psychopath in addition to his silly hero complex.

I liked Fang and Sazh, the rest of the cast not so much. Vanille's silly 'girl' run and the way she talks in pops and whistles or whatever just had me turning the volume down and sticking her on the subs bench as soon as she arrived. While we're in a thread about female cast members, I also thought the body types of Fang, Vanille and Lightning were also a bit too similar in their supermodel-slenderness while toting huge weapons, whereas at least the male cast offers Sazh as a slim guy, Snow as a built chappie and Hope as a rangy adolescent.
 

Dnomla

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,143
United States
Are there many (any?) examples of horror where a male protagonist is utterly helpless and vulnerable throughout, and doesn't end up relying on violence to survive?

Echo Night - PS1
Echo Night 2 - PS1
Echo Night: Beyond - PS2
HellNight - PS1 (Your character you're controlling is helpless, but you meet multiple partners along the way that can protect you with a gun while you're running away)

Of the ones I've played. Like what cosmicblizzard said.

Pfft, haha.

Oh...that girl is supposed to be 15 right? Mmm...

That's Yuri, she's 19. Miu, the other playable female character, is 17. In all versions.
 

kaytee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
440
USA
There is so much out these days that it shouldn't be too hard to find something that fits your tastes.

Part of the point of this thread is that, yes, it can be hard to find games that fit my tastes when there's fanservice shoved into everything. I'm not interested in limiting myself to the few games every year that make an effort, thank you.

Edit:
Many of which I believe are overblown to a ridiculous degree.

You think people's feelings are overblown, or...? Please explain.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
9,008
Canada
Echo Night - PS1
Echo Night 2 - PS1
Echo Night: Beyond - PS2
HellNight - PS1 (Your character you're controlling is helpless, but you meet multiple partners along the way that can protect you with a gun while you're running away)

Of the ones I've played. Like what cosmicblizzard said.



That's Yuri, she's 19. Miu, the other playable female character, is 17. In all versions.

Are the first two Echo Night games worth checking out? I thought Beyond was pretty good.
 

petran79

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,025
Greece
Are there many (any?) examples of horror where a male protagonist is utterly helpless and vulnerable throughout, and doesn't end up relying on violence to survive?

In Bad Mojo the male protagonist is transformed to a cockroach. Good luck escaping from rats, spiders and cat paws

Psychowave's point was about general violence (which can include but is not limited to sexual violence). Your argument is that women are victims of violence (including sexual violence) more often because they are statistically physically weaker. You claim the disparity in physical power is a major factor, perhaps even the leading factor, in gendered violence. Psychowave's rebuttal is that men assault or commit violence against other men just as much (no strength disparity here), compared to women-on-women violence (again, no strength disparity).

In Nazi concentration camps women guards were very brutal too. There is a book by Wendy Lower called Hitler's Furies with more research into the subject of Nazi women and how they contributed to the Holocaust
 

Deleted member 24766

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
242
Part of the point of this thread is that, yes, it can be hard to find games that fits my tastes when there's fanservice shoved into everything. I'm not interested in limiting myself to the few games every year that make an effort, thank you.

Edit:

You think people's feelings are overblown, or...? Please explain.

Feelings, no. The degree/severity of a particular issue, yes. There have been some hyperbolic statements suggesting games like Nier: Automata or Xenoblade Chronicles 2 are insulting/damaging to all women, or how the introduction of an optional side character that could be ignored in Fire Emblem ruins the entire game and all games in that genre for them. While there are many excellent points people are making, there are also just as many hyperbolic statements that are hard to take seriously.

Are you saying you're more of an expert on how women feel than the women expressing those feelings are?
tenor.gif

fv7HQmL.gifv

Yes. Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. You got it. Yeppers. Mhm. /s
 

HyperFerret

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,140
Lightning falls under the "we made her angry all the time because that's what a strong female character is, right?" writing trap. You have people argue that she's a good character and totally not just eye candy and at the same time she slides down poles in the third game like a stripper. Yeah...

I think they were trying to make her a gender swapped Cloud expy but then Square Enix forgot what Cloud's personality was like in the original game and can only remember the "modern" interpretation of him where he's depressed emo for some reason.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,846
Eh...

Let's say that women, in our culture, are CONSIDERED to be physically weaker and that allows a mindset for men who are physically larger to prey upon what they CONSIDER to be a vulnerable target. But I know a few girls who can bust jaws apart with the best of them.

It's not a cut-and-dried thing. On average, women are physically weaker, and having ten or twenty or thirty pounds and a few inches on someone in a struggle makes a difference. On the other,
people who have taken self defense classes know that fighting smart is always a better idea than fighting hard, but knowledge and strength really isn't the only factor.

My wife tells the story of an acquaintance who was concerned his SO at the time was walking alone down a bad route in the city. She brushed him off and said she knew martial arts, she'd be fine. So one day he hid in some of the bushes on her route and ambushed her*… and she did nothing to defend herself. People in panic situations don't respond all that well all the time.
Likewise I've seen much larger guys lose fights because they were surprised the other person fought back at all. We can make broad statements that are factual but that on an individual case aren't really that helpful.

*This doesn't seem like a great idea for your relationship's longevity.
As for Thompson, I was always far more amenable to his arguments than most were, even when he was gamers' public enemy number 1. I totally agree that we're not immune to media influences.

In these types of conversations I think the "think of the children" argument is quite frankly vastly overstated. The arguments against fan service or alienating designs have much more heft as a pragmatic economic argument (you're alienating men and women who would buy your product if not for this stuff) than a moral one. Media is more a reflection of culture than an influencer of it itself.
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
Being a bit selfish here. I wanted to ask what you all thought of this design:

It's the alt costume of one of my favorite characters ever, Kasuga from the Sengoku Basara series.
^This, being her default attire. Her design's conceit is that she's supposed to be a flashy kunoichi who uses distraction and misdirection, and she uses a lot of light-based attacks and such. That said, I've seen it as often being offputting to people into the series. Even those who like her do wish her design wasn't so overly sexualizing of her, especially given all the other women in the series really don't have such designs. Now, I feel her default does fit her to an extent but I also feel like her alt fits her just as well if not more and is certainly a lot less openly sexualizing, yet still retains the idea of her being a flashy ninja.

So uh, I guess... What I want to know is what do you all think of her alt? Is it still too sexualized? Do you think her original outfit is 'fine' given her role, or would her alt be a better main appearance for her going on in the series?
I can give more context if wanted. Sorry for my selfishness. I'm just rather curious.
 

Andrew J

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,170
The Adirondacks
This is only tangentially related, but you kick started my memory here. I'm genuinely curious how much of the costume/design disconnect happens because of disparities in cultural perception of the fourth wall, as it were (I'm not really sure how to express this, really). Interviews and reactions to unexpected western controversies and such over the years combined with the general trend for theatrical exaggeration and melodrama in their media has given me a pretty strong impression that Japanese people might see the kind of bizarre costumes their characters often wear less like things an actual person would ever wear and more like exaggerated stage costumes. We in the present-day west prefer extreme naturalistic acting and presentation in our media, but some of the divide in how audacious stuff gets might be explained if they consider what their characters are wearing in a lot of this stuff less as practical outfits and more as literal costuming.

Wondering if anybody more in the know than my American self has any thoughts on this.

This is pretty broad generalization I'm about to make, but yes, Japanese media overall is much more presentational and Western media is much more representational. It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that most Japanese character designers primarily care about the symbolic meanings of a character's clothing and physical appearance, and that making them suitable for what those characters actually do in their stories is a much more distant concern.
 

Pau

Self-Appointed Godmother of Bruce Wayne's Children
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,856
how the introduction of an optional side character that could be ignored in Fire Emblem ruins the entire game and all games in that genre for them.
Now you're just putting words into my mouth. I never said that one optional side character in Fire Emblem ruined an entire genre for me, but then again you didn't even bother to reply my rebuttal when I clarified.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,420
The English Wilderness
Tidus gets a lot of flak for being "whiny", and most of it seems to be coming from people who believed his shitty, abusive father's assessment of him as a 6 year old.

There's something of a trend of this when it comes to FF really, isn't there? Squall gets the same shit, despite being an orphan with deep-rooted abandonment issues. Hilariously, however, lots of these same people seem to ignore (or are just outright ignorant to) Cloud's problems - him being an insecure guy pretending to be a badass to impress women - and instead swallow his whole facade as if that were his true self...

Jecht gets similar treatment - he's not an irresponsible, abusive father, he's "a badass".

I blame a lack of empathy and toxic masculinity, myself.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.