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Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,398
Have we talked about sex scenes we thought were well done yet?
Wolfenstein: The New Order has one, there's zero objectification going on. I thought Eva and Snake in MGS2 was fine too (despite Eva's outfit being ridiculous in the rest of the game).

In Xenogears there's a "post-sex" scene, basically we see nothing except two nude pixellated sprites characters in the scene which implied they've just been intimate. It was kinda sweet.

...Honestly, that's kind of all I can think of, LOL. Video games really suck with sex scenes in general. The typically bad animations probably don't help. But I think the major roadblock is, as was previously stated, the maturity of video game writers. :P
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
Vaan being an extremely weak FF main character has nothing to do with feminine or manly for me. It's pure bad design all around. Not one second did I think he is feminine or whatever. He is just a child. And I think Square has commented on it that he wasn't planned to be in the game until much later in development.
Yeah, okay, but you're completely missing the actual point of my post.

Hint: it doesn't actually have anything to do with Vaan. It has everything to do with toxic masculinity.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
I didn't know some of you have such deep personal feelings about some character portrayals and some female stereotypes. Some of you really are serious with this stuff.

Certainly in the west there is already a clear shift away from what some members here dislike in games concering female characters. So this will be less of an issue with every passing year I guess.

Japan is something else. But hey, you can't have it all right?

But with all this said. I do think that their doesn't exist an entitlement that anyone can claim over the creations of game developers and artists in general. With time probably things will change and we will never get another Quiet ;-(

I also think that having female characters in sexy outfits is not wrong BY DEFINITION in games, whether out of context or not. But that's something I differ on fundamentaly with some members here I guess.
Cid, that's not what people are saying. People are saying, as has been mentioned by many here, many times, that they do not approve of the objectification so ever present in many video games of both the present and yesteryear. Objectification, to reuse the definition provided by kaytee, is as follows:
Sexual objectification is the viewing of people solely as de-personalised objects of desire instead of as individuals with complex personalities and desires/plans of their own. This is done by speaking/thinking of women especially as only their bodies, either the whole body, or as fetishised body parts.

Sexual attraction is not the same as sexual objectification: objectification only occurs when the individuality of the desired person is not acknowledged. Pornography, prostitution, sexual harassment and the representation of women in mass media and art are all examples of common sexual objectification.

The concept of objectification owes much to the work of Simone de Beauvoir regarding the basic dualism of human consciousness between the Self and the Other: the general mental process where humans classify the world into 'us' and 'them'. Women are universally viewed as the Other across all cultures, a role which is both externally imposed and internalised, and which means that women are generally not truly regarded as fully human. An important point of de Beauvoir's was that this Othering effect is the same whether women are viewed as wholly inferior or if femininity is viewed as mysterious and morally superior: Otherness and full equality cannot coexist.

https://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/03/23/faq-what-is-sexual-objectification/
https://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/03/23/faq-what-is-sexual-objectification/
 

Cid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
395
Cid
Toxic masculinity is the academic term for the constant pressure that society puts on men to act like men. Don't cry, don't complain about anything, don't do something feminine like be a teacher, or nurse, or work in childcare. Watch and play sports. Don't be a nerd who likes to stay inside and read. Drink vodka, not mixed drinks.

This kind of stuff would obviously differ from country to country in its nuance, but it's pretty pervasive in most of western society.

It's generally agreed that it puts a lot of unnecessary and damaging pressure on boys and men to act in a very narrow, specific way and can be partially blamed for, well, a lot of stuff wrong in society right now.


Well, I think it used to be needed.
And in many parts of the world it still does. Where most of us live in our save neighberhoods it's not needed anymore.

But if you live in a tough neighberhood or area then you do want your father and brothers to be tough. I think that's it.
 

Cid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
395
Yeah, okay, but you're completely missing the actual point of my post.

Hint: it doesn't actually have anything to do with Vaan. It has everything to do with toxic masculinity.

I know
But Vaan is just a bad example I guess... for anything besides bad main character design...
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
Well, I think it used to be needed.
And in many parts of the world it still does. Where most of us live in our save neighberhoods it's not needed anymore.

But if you live in a tough neighberhood or area then you do want your father and brothers to be tough. I think that's it.
That's what they call a cycle.

Yes of course we don't live in a perfect world where everyone can afford to be laid back, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve.

And there's a difference between being protective and being aggressive.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
My general impression is that it's probably not just me and if we had our absolute ideal the medium would probably come out of it with MORE actual sex, just less bikini armor and camera creeping that happens so pervasively without actual sex.
I don't know about that. I'm not sure society, western or otherwise, has become any more comfortable with sex than they were in the past. In some ways I think society has become more prudish about it, especially with regards to nudity. But, that's just my own personal take - would be happy to be wrong though.
 

Cid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
395
That's what they call a cycle.

Yes of course we don't live in a perfect world where everyone can afford to be laid back, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve.

And there's a difference between being protective and being aggressive.

I just want to say that that's where it comes from. Like everything in this world there is a reason why it's present.
It's not like someone woke up 10.000 years ago and said: you know what, from today we are going to tell boys they should not cry and show weakness and that they should always act strong.

Of course that didn't happen.
It's the way it is because it was needed for humans/societies vs societies/families etc to survive.

So it not some stupid mentality some guys came up with long ago just for fun. That's all I say
 
Oct 27, 2017
488
I don't know about that. I'm not sure society, western or otherwise, has become any more comfortable with sex than they were in the past. In some ways I think society has become more prudish about it, especially with regards to nudity. But, that's just my own personal take - would be happy to be wrong though.
You've got a fair point. I'm probably too optimistic about that, heh. It's not like I want to see it everywhere, but with an aging core demographic it'd be nice to see more games that could approach the subject matter with some level of respect and nuance. I'm not even talking anything over the top, just like... more recognition that it's an actual part of the human experience. Even network TV can manage that much.
 

Opa-Pa

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,810
I didn't know some of you have such deep personal feelings about some character portrayals and some female stereotypes. Some of you really are serious with this stuff.

Certainly in the west there is already a clear shift away from what some members here dislike in games concering female characters. So this will be less of an issue with every passing year I guess.

Japan is something else. But hey, you can't have it all right?

But with all this said. I do think that their doesn't exist an entitlement that anyone can claim over the creations of game developers and artists in general. With time probably things will change and we will never get another Quiet ;-(

I also think that having female characters in sexy outfits is not wrong BY DEFINITION in games, whether out of context or not. But that's something I differ on fundamentaly with some members here I guess.
Well obviously, I definitely wouldn't spend as much time posting here if I didn't feel strongly about these issues :p plus I like to learn from others about it, particularly actual women, who naturally should always have the final word on these topics.

There's a common misconception (and I'm not saying you think like this) about these discussions that people seriously think we only argue about it to show some sort of moral superiority or just complain, but we clearly do care about this stuff.

I don't disagree with the bolded though, and actually I don't think anyone here does.
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
EpbLm_s-200x150.gif

I'm sorry, what? There is so much hyperbole in that statement that I do not even know if I should take that seriously.

I mean, you can look the statistics up yourself. It's not hard.

Now you're just putting words into my mouth. I never said that one optional side character in Fire Emblem ruined an entire genre for me, but then again you didn't even bother to reply my rebuttal when I clarified.

And even if it did, no one should be able to blame you for not wanting to play a series that starts having sexy 13 year olds that you can marry and impregnate in it lol
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
Well, I think it used to be needed.
And in many parts of the world it still does. Where most of us live in our save neighberhoods it's not needed anymore.

But if you live in a tough neighberhood or area then you do want your father and brothers to be tough. I think that's it.
Cid, masculinity is not something that is needed, it is something that is created. It is a way of presenting the world in a strongly gendered manner. Being a boy doesn't mean that you have to be tough, any more than being a girl means that you have to be dainty. Many people who are traditionally extremely tough are also emotionally fragile, and toxic masculinity tells them that they are not allowed to be emotionally fragile. It is a way of creating normative definitions for a gendered group to make them feel as if they are less than human if they do not follow the entirely arbitrary set of rules set out before them.

Moving away from toxic masculinity allows males to be more complete people, to be allowed to feel and think, and frankly be more than a limited set of gender roles allows. Escaping this sort of masculinity enriches the possibilities for males, even those who were once affected by the limitations of toxic masculinity. It behooves even those who agree with the traditional roles to allow masculinity to be more than just being "tough".
 

GraphicViolets

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
985
I don't know about that. I'm not sure society, western or otherwise, has become any more comfortable with sex than they were in the past. In some ways I think society has become more prudish about it, especially with regards to nudity. But, that's just my own personal take - would be happy to be wrong though.
Compared to when? definitely no time before the 60s. I'm not sure I see a big difference after that besides women trying to change the conversation away from exploitation of women which happened to be a lot of the driving conversation behind sex.
 

Cid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
395
I don't know about that. I'm not sure society, western or otherwise, has become any more comfortable with sex than they were in the past. In some ways I think society has become more prudish about it, especially with regards to nudity. But, that's just my own personal take - would be happy to be wrong though.


Before christianity some civilizations where often much more liberal with sex than we now if i'm not mistaken.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phallus

In Japan there is still a spring virtality/penis festival

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanamara_Matsuri


The Shinto Kanamara Matsuri (かなまら祭り, "Festival of the Steel Phallus") is held each spring at the Kanayama Shrine (金山神社 Kanayama-jinja) in Kawasaki, Japan. The exact dates vary: the main festivities fall on the first Sunday in April. The phallus, as the central theme of the event, is reflected in illustrations, candy, carved vegetables, decorations, and a mikoshiparade.


Candy penissen? Lol

Those Japanese...
On a side note, I've been two times on holiday to Japan, mainly to Tokyo. I love Tokyo. If you ever can go, do it.
 

kaytee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
440
USA
I've always tended to find FFX's characters to be off-putting because of their personalities. It almost feels like a Star Wars prequel script to me. There's something there, but it never really came across as anything other than trying too hard for a feeling the writer couldn't construct in a manner that properly expressed it. They all felt somewhat creepy to me, personally. Like the uncanny valley of characterization.

It's one of my favorite games, so I can't say I agree.

I can't attribute ideas to you personally but there is clearly a hostility towards sex for sex's sake and a hostility towards exaggeration and "trashiness".

Can I see some examples of what you mean? It's hard to respond to you without any, and I don't see that in this thread.

I am not sure if you have ready my previous posts - but I have stated that English is not my first language. When I kept hearing that "objectification is harmful to women", I was indeed thinking that they meant that each and every woman is personally insulted and upset by it. I did not realize that they were referring to the overall societal effect and I do greatly apologize for this mistake. I think this would be considered a literal interpretation? I will take some time to think about this as this does change a lot of what I read in a new light.

Only two of my comments were meant with any snark and those were in regards to StoneOven and Psychowave. I apologize if other posts had seemed snarky as they were not meant to.

Yes, I did see that English is your second language. I'm glad that the definition helped shed a new light on the discussion. I'm sure there are other people reading the thread who also don't know what people mean when they use the word objectification, because it's not a common thing to talk about. So hopefully it helped a few other people too.
 
Oct 27, 2017
488
Yes, I did see that English is your second language. I'm glad that the definition helped shed a new light on the discussion. I'm sure there are other people reading the thread who also don't know what people mean when they use the word objectification, because it's not a common thing to talk about. So hopefully it helped a few other people too.
It's been a pet theory of mine for a long time that some of the pushback that happens when talking about these subjects happens because of an understandable, well, lack of understanding of what the terms we throw around actually mean. As an example, Toxic Masculinity sounds both scary and kind of accusatory without proper context: "Your masculinity is toxic! Men are toxic!" instead of the more accurate "Men are victims of social pressures also." It kind of masks that one of the general aims of the movement includes giving male nerds more freedom to be nerds without feeling like they're gonna get the crap beat out of them either physically or emotionally for not being manly enough, which I mean. I expect a lot of male nerds would rather wish to have happen.
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
Compared to when? definitely no time before the 60s. I'm not sure I see a big difference after that besides women trying to change the conversation away from exploitation of women which happened to be a lot of the driving conversation behind sex.

I think people often confuse feminist critique of porn or sexualized portrayals of women with prudishness.
 

Cid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
395
It's been a pet theory of mine for a long time that some of the pushback that happens when talking about these subjects happens because of an understandable, well, lack of understanding of what the terms we throw around actually mean. As an example, Toxic Masculinity sounds both scary and kind of accusatory without proper context: "Your masculinity is toxic! Men are toxic!" instead of the more accurate "Men are victims of social pressures also." It kind of masks that one of the general aims of the movement includes giving male nerds more freedom to be nerds without feeling like they're gonna get the crap beat out of them either physically or emotionally for not being manly enough, which I mean. I expect a lot of male nerds would rather wish to have happen.

I know nerds. They are fine.
Actually this morning 4 friends of mine aged around 34 left to Disneyland in Paris for two nights.
Now thats being a nerd.
One of them has been to all the Disney parks in the world and even wears badges of all the parks when he visits one of them.
I can't come up with something nerdier than this actually. It's beyond nerd.

But hey no one beats the crap out of them physically nor mentally and they have girlfriends and kids.

So I think things have already really changed al lot.
 
Oct 27, 2017
488
I know nerds. They are fine.
Actually this morning 4 friends of mine aged around 34 left to Disneyland in Paris for two nights.
Now thats being a nerd.
One of them has been to all the Disney parks in the world and even wears badges of all the parks when he visits one of them.
I can't come up with something nerdier than this actually. It's beyond nerd.

But hey no one beats the crap out of them physically nor mentally and they have girlfriends and kids.

So I think things have already really changed al lot.
Things are absolutely changing. That's why we keep talking about them.
 

Pau

Self-Appointed Godmother of Bruce Wayne's Children
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,856
And even if it did, no one should be able to blame you for not wanting to play a series that starts having sexy 13 year olds that you can marry and impregnate in it lol
Yeah, I totally don't blame people for not wanting to financially support a game or series that sexualizes children even if you never have to see or use them.

Wolfenstein: The New Order has one, there's zero objectification going on. I thought Eva and Snake in MGS2 was fine too (despite Eva's outfit being ridiculous in the rest of the game).

In Xenogears there's a "post-sex" scene, basically we see nothing except two nude pixellated sprites characters in the scene which implied they've just been intimate. It was kinda sweet.

...Honestly, that's kind of all I can think of, LOL. Video games really suck with sex scenes in general. The typically bad animations probably don't help. But I think the major roadblock is, as was previously stated, the maturity of video game writers. :P
To be fair, a lot of genre writers in other media aren't very good at it either. And yeah, between unequal objectification and unintentional silliness, there's a lot that can go wrong.

It's been a pet theory of mine for a long time that some of the pushback that happens when talking about these subjects happens because of an understandable, well, lack of understanding of what the terms we throw around actually mean. As an example, Toxic Masculinity sounds both scary and kind of accusatory without proper context: "Your masculinity is toxic! Men are toxic!" instead of the more accurate "Men are victims of social pressures also." It kind of masks that one of the general aims of the movement includes giving male nerds more freedom to be nerds without feeling like they're gonna get the crap beat out of them either physically or emotionally for not being manly enough, which I mean. I expect a lot of male nerds would rather wish to have happen.
I think it helps to frame the concept around masculinities. Masculinity does not need to be (and isn't) inherently toxic, but the most common form of masculinity exposed by American (among others) society has many toxic elements.

I think people often confuse feminist critique of porn or sexualized portrayals of women with prudishness.
This is definitely a thing that happens. GraphicViolets explained how hypocritical the phenomenon is in a much more eloquent way than I could a while back - so much so that I can't even paraphrase what she said. ;-;
 

kaytee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
440
USA
It's been a pet theory of mine for a long time that some of the pushback that happens when talking about these subjects happens because of an understandable, well, lack of understanding of what the terms we throw around actually mean. As an example, Toxic Masculinity sounds both scary and kind of accusatory without proper context: "Your masculinity is toxic! Men are toxic!" instead of the more accurate "Men are victims of social pressures also." It kind of masks that one of the general aims of the movement includes giving male nerds more freedom to be nerds without feeling like they're gonna get the crap beat out of them either physically or emotionally for not being manly enough, which I mean. I expect a lot of male nerds would rather wish to have happen.

Yes, I think this is the #1 problem in every discussion like this online. You can see it in how often people pop in to say that they don't understand what the problem is with sexy women or finding women attractive. Because the problem isn't with sexy women, it's with treating women as literal objects.

It's hard, because how many thousands of times are you going to clarify what objectification means? And then it can also be hard to help people understand the very concept, because we are so used to seeing women's bodies be objectified that a lot of people conflate objectification with actual female sexuality.

So a lot of the time we're stuck in feminism 101 and people are talking past each other and getting frustrated. Feminist jargon is useful to name concepts (it would be hell if I could never use the word objectification and had to explain it every time), but it's still jargon.
 

Cid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
395
Ramus and Miang in bed "sweet"?
What kind of sweet?
Sweet as in hot, or sweet as in cute?
Cause that must have been some crazy sex between the clone contact and the mother of all men.
 

Cid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
395
Ramsus and Miang in bed "sweet"?
What kind of sweet?
Sweet as in hot, or sweet as in cute?
Cause that must have been some crazy sex between the clone contact and the mother of all men.
 

Deleted member 24766

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
242
I mean, you can look the statistics up yourself. It's not hard.



And even if it did, no one should be able to blame you for not wanting to play a series that starts having sexy 13 year olds that you can marry and impregnate in it lol

The burden of proof is on you, not me. If you make such a wild accusation then you should back it up with scientifically procured data.
 

Abstrusity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,656
It's been a pet theory of mine for a long time that some of the pushback that happens when talking about these subjects happens because of an understandable, well, lack of understanding of what the terms we throw around actually mean. As an example, Toxic Masculinity sounds both scary and kind of accusatory without proper context: "Your masculinity is toxic! Men are toxic!" instead of the more accurate "Men are victims of social pressures also." It kind of masks that one of the general aims of the movement includes giving male nerds more freedom to be nerds without feeling like they're gonna get the crap beat out of them either physically or emotionally for not being manly enough, which I mean. I expect a lot of male nerds would rather wish to have happen.
It goes deeper than that too, however. During the Gamergate fiasco for instance, the targets of Gamergate were first the neutral and disaffected crowds -- not women, but the men who would later become the smokescreen or become harassers during the height of Gamergate. They used terms like "toxic masculinity" and "male gaze" and the like. But instead of providing proper context to those terms, like anyone in the sphere of influence in industry that would USE those terms and understand what they mean, they explained them in an accusatory manner. Because they FELT accusatory.

So yes, while "Toxic Masculinity" sounded like "Masculinity is toxic, men are toxic," it was doubled down upon by the 'higher-ups' in Gamergate JUST to bring more people, who would otherwise want nothing to do with it, into the fold. "Male gaze" was wrong, they said, because it assumes that a man is playing, and that in itself was problematic, not that the camera assumed a man was playing, and treated female characters as set pieces, but that a man was playing the game in the first place. They doubled down on "Toxic masculinity" to claim that anything quintessentially manly was bad, and should be done away with. When someone claimed something about "the Patriarchy," they calmly explained that they wanted a Matriarchy only, and to remove men from society altogether. Remove men JUST LIKE YOU. And look, they've succeeded, haven't they? You're sitting here playing video games while they're trying to tear them down. And all you wanted was to be left alone. But they keep coming. They'll keep coming unless we do something about it.

And the response to that was...well, even I responded badly to that. Thankfully, as you know, you saved me from that garbage and explained to me exactly what people like Sarkeesian meant when they used those terms. I had never heard form them outside of 4chan at the time, and my understanding of them was EXACTLY the sentiments outlined above -- the exact opposite of what those terms meant, with few caring quite enough to look them up. They created both content and context, and it was argued a lot at the time that nobody should have to explain what they mean when they use those terms, even when it was dreadfully obvious that the use of those terms without context opened the door for STEVEN FUCKING BANNON and Milo Yiannopolous to wander in and give the terms the definition they wanted us to know.

And though I knew I was trans at the time, I felt attacked more from feminist circles because I was in that bubble, casting a blind eye to the very real attacks aimed at my back.


This is how these bubbles and cults thrive.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,419
The English Wilderness
So a lot of the time we're stuck in feminism 101 and people are talking past each other and getting frustrated. Feminist jargon is useful to name concepts (it would be hell if I could never use the word objectification and had to explain it every time), but it's still jargon.

I can't remember who said it - it was early in this thread I think? - but it's telling how some people can quickly Google their way to spreadsheets explaining the statistics of obscure, twenty-year-old video games, but can't be bothered to learn the basics of feminism or its terminology, instead preferring to either push their own interpretation, or dismiss it outright.
 

GraphicViolets

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
985
This is definitely a thing that happens. GraphicViolets explained how hypocritical the phenomenon is in a much more eloquent way than I could a while back - so much so that I can't even paraphrase what she said. ;-;
Found it

me elsewhere said:
The idea of prudishness is the same as the idea of sluttiness IMO. They're just used to shame women into acting a certain way and into accepting certain sets of behavior.

If it makes you uncomfortable it makes you uncomfortable. Doesn't matter if it's meant as a compliment or small talk.
I dont very much like the word prude since its often used to shame people for their lack of personal interest in sex.


Though this is assuming this is even what you were talking about since it might not fit the line of conversation. either way I still think this is a good point
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
The burden of proof is on you, not me. If you make such a wild accusation then you should back it up with scientifically procured data.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime. Check the "statistics" section. And before you say "durr Wikipedia", you can click on the little blue numbers to check the actual sources.

Claiming that men commit more crime than women is a wild accusation? Lol, might as well say that claiming the sky is blue is a wild accusation.
 

kaytee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
440
USA
The burden of proof is on you, not me. If you make such a wild accusation then you should back it up with scientifically procured data.

This is about men being more violent than women, right? I'm sure psychowave doesn't mean that every single man is violent. But men are the most likely to commit violent crimes. Quoting from Wikipedia for U.S. crime rates:

In 2014, more than 73% of those arrested in the US were males.[41] Men accounted for 80.4 percent of persons arrested for violent crime and 62.9 percent of those arrested for property crime.[41] In 2011, the United States Department of Justice compiled homicide statistics in the United States between 1980 and 2008.[42] That study showed the following:

  • Males were convicted of the vast majority of homicides in the United States, representing 90.5% of the total number of offenders.[42]

----


2011 arrest data from the FBI:[43]

  • Males constituted 98.9% of those arrested for forcible rape[43]
  • Males constituted 87.9% of those arrested for robbery[43]
  • Males constituted 85.0% of those arrested for burglary[43]
  • Males constituted 83.0% of those arrested for arson.[43]
  • Males constituted 81.7% of those arrested for vandalism.[43]
  • Males constituted 81.5% of those arrested for motor-vehicle theft.[43]
  • Males constituted 79.7% of those arrested for offenses against family and children.[43]
  • Males constituted 77.8% of those arrested for aggravated assault[43]
  • Males constituted 58.7% of those arrested for fraud.[43]
  • Males constituted 57.3% of those arrested for larceny-theft.[43]
  • Males constituted 51.3% of those arrested for embezzlement.[43]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime#In_the_United_States

As you can see, the percentages get a little more even when you get to less violent crimes. I've included a direct link to that part of the page so you can see the citations for yourself. There are also statistics for other parts of the world, where the results aren't much different so it's not a USA problem.

Edit: haha beaten with the same wiki article! Great minds ;)
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
I can't remember who said it - it was early in this thread I think? - but it's telling how some people can quickly Google their way to spreadsheets explaining the statistics of obscure, twenty-year-old video games, but can't be bothered to learn the basics of feminism or its terminology, instead preferring to either push their own interpretation, or dismiss it outright.
It's pretty incredible how lazy people can be when they don't like the subject matter because it criticizes things they love, or even them. "It's your job to educate me! (But also you're wrong.)"

Certainly doesn't help, though, when, as mentioned above, people warp and twist definitions to their own purpose. ):
 
Oct 27, 2017
488
Ramsus and Miang in bed "sweet"?
What kind of sweet?
Sweet as in hot, or sweet as in cute?
Cause that must have been some crazy sex between the clone contact and the mother of all men.
Fei and Elly had a scene too. I think she was referring to that one, haha.
I learned so many things from that experience. You're the reason I have so much patience for this stuff. <3
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime. Claiming that men commit more crime than women is a wild accusation? Lol, might as well say that claiming the sky is blue is a wild accusation.
I just looked outside and it's black with little dots in it. Checkmate.
 
Last edited:

kaytee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
440
USA
I can't remember who said it - it was early in this thread I think? - but it's telling how some people can quickly Google their way to spreadsheets explaining the statistics of obscure, twenty-year-old video games, but can't be bothered to learn the basics of feminism or its terminology, instead preferring to either push their own interpretation, or dismiss it outright.

I was a gender studies minor in college, so trust me these people sought me out lol. It's incredibly frustrating, and I didn't always handle it well. You can explain until you're blue in the face, but some people will refuse to incorporate the new information you're providing and just... keep... going... I always said it was a lot like me going into a physics class and telling them gravity wasn't real. There's a whole academic discipline behind feminism (and it's so much more than academia), but many people feel comfortable dismissing it without a thought and with condescension.
 

Abstrusity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,656
I can't remember who said it - it was early in this thread I think? - but it's telling how some people can quickly Google their way to spreadsheets explaining the statistics of obscure, twenty-year-old video games, but can't be bothered to learn the basics of feminism or its terminology, instead preferring to either push their own interpretation, or dismiss it outright.
During the height of Gamergate, it was OTHER people doing the "research," and copy/pasted links directly from the assorted threads and other conversational places (IRC too, but I never went there). They kept large threads with "How to argue about this" in the header with links to all kinds of batshit statistics, they provided their own talking points and repeated them ad infinitum. Such that eventually, people could just tab over to a thread, copy a link, explain in a few words what it meant (sometimes wrong), and use that as an argument. If for whatever reason, that wasn't working, they'd dip back out and make a new account if they needed to, and so on and so forth.

It was a very precisely created escalation, a movement guided in the shadows of anonymity through astroturfing and maintenance of a bubble, such that even when you destroy every talking point one person had, another would drop the same talking points, the same links to the same statistics with the same talking points explained to them. It not only made it impossible to argue against on 4chan until moot started banning threads and everyone talking about it, but it made it impossible to KEEP arguing anywhere else.
 

forpush

Member
Oct 25, 2017
144
To bring this back to the topic of female characters, though, note how Tifa and Aeris defy their stereotypes: Tifa, the brawler, is shy and lacks confidence, whilst Aeris, the healer, is extroverted and flirty. And, like Cloud, they both try to hide their true selves behind a false persona.
Yeah, that's a really strong theme of FF7 in general, all the main characters represent this in one way or the other. The idea of there being a true self, and the self you create to shield yourself from the world, your mistakes, the consequences, your guilt, it's such a great element of FF7 that I myself missed for many years and it does seem like many people do too, including everyone who worked on the FF7 Compilation. I don't have high hopes for FF7 Remake but maybe someone gets it.

I just want to say that that's where it comes from. Like everything in this world there is a reason why it's present.
It's not like someone woke up 10.000 years ago and said: you know what, from today we are going to tell boys they should not cry and show weakness and that they should always act strong.

Of course that didn't happen.
It's the way it is because it was needed for humans/societies vs societies/families etc to survive.

So it not some stupid mentality some guys came up with long ago just for fun. That's all I say
Which is exactly where the "toxic" part of this comes through.
You're right, it didn't just happen, nobody got up and pinned a notice on a wall that said "men must be strong protectors and violent and never show emotions other than anger." It's just something that everyone gets infected with to some degree through socialisation with their peers, their parents, the media they consume and a host of other factors that enforce the idea that "Real Men Must Act This Way" and that emotions and feelings are for girls, who are naturally weaker than men (of course.)
Addressing the toxic aspects of Masculinity seeks to allow men to express themselves in any manner they see fit and encourages emotional intelligence. You're right, it's getting better, but it's not yet there, so we shouldn't just sit back and say "oh well some men can be nerds in public and nobody beats them up" because as long as some kid somewhere is being called homophobic slurs by his classmates or being beaten up for not adhering to the strict guidelines of manliness, then Toxic Masculinity will continue to be a problem we must all address.
 

Deleted member 24766

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
242
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime. Check the "statistics" section. And before you say "durr Wikipedia", you can click on the little blue numbers to check the actual sources.

Claiming that men commit more crime than women is a wild accusation? Lol, might as well say that claiming the sky is blue is a wild accusation.

If that is what you had originally said, then no. That would not be a wild accusation - however that is not what you claimed. You claimed that men are inherently violent, not that they generally commit more violent crimes. I feared that I may have misread your post, so I decided to ask my two American roommates to read the post and the previous posts that led up to it and they have come to the same conclusion.

This is about men being more violent than women, right? I'm sure psychowave doesn't mean that every single man is violent. But men are the most likely to commit violent crimes. Quoting from Wikipedia for U.S. crime rates:

As you can see, the percentages get a little more even when you get to less violent crimes. I've included a direct link to that part of the page so you can see the citations for yourself. There are also statistics for other parts of the world, where the results aren't much different so it's not a USA problem.

Edit: haha beaten with the same wiki article! Great minds ;)

That is not how I, nor my roommates had interpreted Psychowave's post. If they had made it clear that they were referring to how males are more likely to commit a violent crime versus males being inherently more violent then this minor issue would not have popped up. There is a major difference between the two.
 

Opa-Pa

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,810
Men aren't inherently violent, but the majority of them grow up to be violent due to being pushed to adhere to masculinity. Hence the "toxic" in toxic masculinity.

Masculinity is the source of almost every problem regarding sexuality, gender and many other things.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,419
The English Wilderness
I was a gender studies minor in college, so trust me these people sought me out lol. It's incredibly frustrating, and I didn't always handle it well. You can explain until you're blue in the face, but some people will refuse to incorporate the new information you're providing and just... keep... going... I always said it was a lot like me going into a physics class and telling them gravity wasn't real. There's a whole academic discipline behind feminism (and it's so much more than academia), but many people feel comfortable dismissing it without a thought and with condescension.

If cognitive bias is like a wall, some people have fortified themselves inside particularly extravagant citadels of delusion.

During the height of Gamergate, it was OTHER people doing the "research," and copy/pasted links directly from the assorted threads and other conversational places (IRC too, but I never went there). They kept large threads with "How to argue about this" in the header with links to all kinds of batshit statistics, they provided their own talking points and repeated them ad infinitum. Such that eventually, people could just tab over to a thread, copy a link, explain in a few words what it meant (sometimes wrong), and use that as an argument. If for whatever reason, that wasn't working, they'd dip back out and make a new account if they needed to, and so on and so forth.

It was a very precisely created escalation, a movement guided in the shadows of anonymity through astroturfing and maintenance of a bubble, such that even when you destroy every talking point one person had, another would drop the same talking points, the same links to the same statistics with the same talking points explained to them. It not only made it impossible to argue against on 4chan until moot started banning threads and everyone talking about it, but it made it impossible to KEEP arguing anywhere else.

The whole thing reminds me of Scientology at times. Well, cults in general, really. Which is hilarious given the toxic atheism at the heart of some of these groups.

It has all happened before and will happen again :S
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
If that is what you had originally said, then no. That would not be a wild accusation - however that is not what you claimed. You claimed that men are inherently violent, not that they generally commit more violent crimes. I feared that I may have misread your post, so I decided to ask my two American roommates to read the post and the previous posts that led up to it and they have come to the same conclusion.



That is not how I, nor my roommates had interpreted Psychowave's post. If they had made it clear that they were referring to how males are more likely to commit a violent crime versus males being inherently more violent then this minor issue would not have popped up. There is a major difference between the two.

Except I said "excessively", not "inherently", and it's not my fault if you or your roommates didn't read my post correctly.
 

Deleted member 24766

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
242
Men aren't inherently violent, but the majority of them grow up to be violent due to being pushed to adhere to masculinity. Hence the toxic in toxic masculinity.
I agree wholeheartedly. Toxic masculinity can cause long term issues for young men growing up. I experienced this myself and have had to seek treatment for the issues that had appeared during my late teens and what I continue to see in the college level with my colleagues. Would this be considered more of a nurture vs nature debate as the violence is less based on sex and more based on the environment one grows up in?

Except I said "excessively", not "inherently", and it's not my fault if you or your roommates didn't read my post correctly.

I'm sorry, but I have more reason to believe my roommates than I do you. I genuinely believe that your post was worded poorly and could have used more clarification.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
You've got a fair point. I'm probably too optimistic about that, heh. It's not like I want to see it everywhere, but with an aging core demographic it'd be nice to see more games that could approach the subject matter with some level of respect and nuance. I'm not even talking anything over the top, just like... more recognition that it's an actual part of the human experience. Even network TV can manage that much.
Yeah, but I think that requires an evolution in writing. And for that to happen new writers probably need to be introduced into the fold. I've found that the general creation of games outside of indie scenes has become much more... tick the boxes? I dunno how to describe it exactly, just that there is much more focus on hitting certain marks rather than fully developing narratives and characters to go along with those narratives. It's particularly frustrating in games because they're such a great way to tell a story too, especially if the mechanics really connect with the narrative. Which they definitely can, like in Papers, Please, or VA-11 Hall-A, but far more often they don't (and those are both indie games, I have a hard time thinking of a AAA title that I would say had a narrative with well-developed characters, much less one that had mechanics that helped to build those ideas up).
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
I'm sorry, but I have more reason to believe my roommates than I do you. I genuinely believe that your post was worded poorly and could have used more clarification.

I never implied what you think in my post and there's no way you could've taken that from it unless you had some preconceived ideas about what I would try to convey soooo ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,232
Greater Vancouver
Well do you believe games are art, or no?

I believe nothing is above fair criticism but I also believe nothing in art is as important as creative freedom and artistic vision, even people's feelings regarding said art, no matter how hurtful, etc
Unless you're talking about games made with small, personal teams with a deliberate perspective they are looking to express, the "artistic integrity" argument means little. Most major games are being made with massive teams and with market appeal at the forefront of their decisions.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,581
My general impression is that it's probably not just me and if we had our absolute ideal the medium would probably come out of it with MORE actual sex, just less bikini armor and camera creeping that happens so pervasively without actual sex.
YEAH! More actual intimacy and less pandering to people who think they know what sex is but aren't really sure, so it's embodied in mostly incorrect anatomy lessons.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,419
The English Wilderness
Would this be considered more of a nurture vs nature debate as the violence is less based on sex and more based on the environment one grows up in?

Judging from my own experiences, I'd say it's a nurture thing. I was raised in an almost-matriarchal environment, and introduced - and repulsed by - toxic masculinity at a very young age. I now have a long history of struggling to relate to men, their culture, and their seeming obsession with competition (and violence) XD
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
Compared to when? definitely no time before the 60s. I'm not sure I see a big difference after that besides women trying to change the conversation away from exploitation of women which happened to be a lot of the driving conversation behind sex.
Apologies for the use of the term prudish - sexually repressed would have probably been better and a more accurate descriptor. As for compared to when, farther back in the past (many cultures, particularly after wars, tended to become very open about sex - for what are pretty obvious reasons), but I also think the 70s were a fairly open time as far as sex goes, though the 80s proceeded to shut a lot of that down hard due to the extreme conservative backlash (at least in the US). And by open I mostly mean that people were a) willing to engage with sexual content more openly and b) accepting of sexuality as part of the human experience with fewer caveats as to whose experience that was. I do not mean to imply that it has ever been a completely open subject. Just that I think the backlash in the 80s and early 90s was a result of the more open sexual movement in the 70s.
 

GraphicViolets

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
985
YEAH! More actual intimacy and less pandering to people who think they know what sex is but aren't really sure, so it's embodied in mostly incorrect anatomy lessons.
Intimacy is a good way to put it. So much sexual content is not very thought out and just tacked on. I'd love more sexual content that actually meant something and had emotional buildup. I've actually been thinking about this a lot lately haha.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,581
Intimacy is a good way to put it. So much sexual content is not very thought out and just tacked on. I'd love more sexual content that actually meant something and had emotional buildup. I've actually been thinking about this a lot lately haha.
The problem is that intimacy is hard, and drawing a huge pair of boobs on a generic anime girl is...quite easy, and far more accepted than it should be.
 
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