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killerrin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,237
Toronto
I'm with everyone else here. The solution isn't to drop language requirements, the solution is to improve language education. Quebec needs to get better at English education and the rest of Canada needs to get better at French education.

Hell, I would go a step further and say we fully 100% subsidize French/English Language classes in college's so that anyone who wants to learn the language can do so without incurring financial harm. We need to make it as easy as possible for Children, Teens, Adults and even the Elderly to learn French/English.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,161
The thing with official languages is that we're so wishy washy when it comes to languages that are actually Canadian - the aboriginal languages.
 

Hat22

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,652
Canada
The thing with official languages is that we're so wishy washy when it comes to languages that are actually Canadian - the aboriginal languages.

Programs are available to learn some of these languages. Kinda impossible to apply this to the federal because of the sheer diversity of languages though. Saskatchewan has a few channels aimed at the local first-nations but they mostly seem to be in English. Pretty sure English is their Franca-Lingua.

We need to bolster the quality of learning a 2nd language, not slam the other official language because our education system failed us.

I learned English via playing with other kids in Cote-Des-Neiges and watching allot of TV and cartoons. The quality of teaching English in Quebec schools during late early 80s was total garbo

This takes resources away from other subjects that are dipping and a major part of learning a language is immersion, which either requires a specialized school ($$$) or living in a region that has both languages in abundance, IE, the Toronto-Montreal area.

It would be better to get rid of the whole thing. This would almost certainly never happen because of the constitution and the interests of those elites and middle-class that benefit but it's still problematic. It should be more localized and government organizations could just use technology to reach out to people speaking an official language where it is not dominant.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,161
Programs are available to learn some of these languages. Kinda impossible to apply this to the federal because of the sheer diversity of languages though. Saskatchewan has a few channels aimed at the local first-nations but they mostly seem to be in English. Pretty sure English is their Franca-Lingua.
I think official bilingualism is so problematic, particularly when you consider the only reason why English/French is the dominant language in many of these communities is because we perpetuated cultural genocide. Then we have the gaul to enshrine it and make it a part of Canadian culture and identity.

This takes resources away from other subjects that are dipping and a major part of learning a language is immersion, which either requires a specialized school ($$$) or living in a region that has both languages in abundance, IE, the Toronto-Montreal area.

It would be better to get rid of the whole thing. This would almost certainly never happen because of the constitution and the interests of those elites and middle-class that benefit but it's still problematic. It should be more localized and government organizations could just use technology to reach out to people speaking an official language where it is not dominant.
That said, it leads to hilarious situations like people getting out of parking tickets because the signs were not displayed in French. I'm all for people exploiting the law in that manner. lol
 

gutter_trash

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
17,124
Montreal
So instead of improving education we must scrap it to appease unilinguals?
That is poppycock.

Scandinavian countries have superb English emersion programs and turn out perfect bilinguals and trilinguals.

We should learn from the best emersion programs from around the world.

Education is an investment
 

Deleted member 12950

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,151
Canada
Canada's had bilingual institutions without every actor in those institutions being bilingual for years, including the Supreme Court and recently the Auditor General. Bilingualism doesn't have to be scrapped to accommodate those who haven't had the opportunities to learn the other language and every actor doesn't need to be bilingual for the institution itself to be bilingual.

We should be doing a better job of teaching French outside of Québec but as Sean C. pointed out, the Supreme Court is making very technical decisions and french immersion through grade 12 or even undergrad isn't going to be sufficient to be able to work competently in both languages.

And even if we do get our heads out of our asses with language education it's going to be what, 35+ years for kids going through that to be eligible for the Supreme Court? And in the meantime the court will remain lily white because a language requirement is an extra barrier for people of colour who may not have grown up or worked in a community where you can be immersed in French.
 

Mr.Mike

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,677
I think the trend has been towards taking French education less seriously? In Ontario I was among the last class to do French lessons in kindergarten, where previously they had been required in all grades up to Grade 9.

I also remember my elementary French teacher was a complete joke and we really didn't learn anything at all, and she was the only French teacher at my school. My high-school French teacher was actually really good but I only took the 1 mandatory course with her.
 
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firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,161
If America can get away with not having official languages and still not manage to cause WW3, I think we'd be fine. lol
 

Deleted member 12950

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,151
Canada
I think the trend has been towards taking French education less seriously? In Ontario I was among the last class to do French lessons in kindergarten, where previously they had been required in all grades up to Grade 9.

I also remember my elementary French teacher was a completer joke and we really didn't learn anything at all, and she was the only French teacher at my school. My high-school French teacher was actually really good but I only took the 1 mandatory course with her.

Even immersion programs don't seem that great, it's basically a way for parents to get a private school environment without having to pay for it. Kids with any special needs whatsoever are funneled out back into the English program because there's basically no accommodation for them whatsoever, even if their problems aren't related to learning the language.

Back in the day my high school had an immersion part with kids who went through immersion in that and I've not been too impressed. The kids I was friends with were bright people and while they did well in their classes in French (and the English-language classes we were in together) they couldn't understand the French commentary in a hockey game on RDS (I used to watch hockey in French so I didn't have to watch the Leafs every Saturday) or a news broadcast on SRC.
 

Terrell

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,624
Canada
I recall having really solid French instruction, but compulsory French ended after Grade 9. And since I didn't have any hope of entering either public service or a government job, I scrapped further French classes for other electives. Thankfully, they mostly taught important phrases, grammar and pronunciation up until Grade 9, so it's really just a matter of vocabulary and the finer grammar points. So from my experience, French education was great, but immersion is better, and the trend seems to be towards French immersion schooling here (my elementary school was converted to French immersion this year), which has high demand from parents.

So the demand curve seems to be swinging back towards better and more sustainable French education, from my perspective, likely because of so many years of treating it as a luxury skill in English-speaking Canada, rather than a necessity to obtain steady gainful employment at a unionized government job, one of the only kind of jobs with stability nowadays.
 

hibikase

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,820
"Bonjour-hi" is totally unnecessary and I would be glad to see it go away. Sorry but I approve with the Assembly here.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,308
I went through English immersion in 6th grade some 20+ years ago. Our Ontarian "twins" during the student exchange trip were doing French immersion.

We spoke English the entire time we were in Ontario. We had entire conversations in English the whole time. When it was their turn to come to Québec, none of them could speak French whatsoever. Couldn't hold a conversation, could barely string a coherent sentence. My parents, who suck at English, practiced their English more than these Ontarian kids practiced their French. It was really pathetic.

I don't want to generalize all French immersion classes based on my personal experience, but I sure as hell was unimpressed. xD I do have a friend who grew up in Vancouver (moved to Montreal when she was about 13 or 15) who did French immersion, and while she's definitely an anglo, her French is remarkably good when she decides to speak it, with only a light accent even. So I know it's not universally bad. But still, the same thing happened to my brother when he did his immersion class two years before me.

IMO, Montreal should separate from Quebec and become a floating bilingual Island
LOL, I've wanted that for a while to be honest...

edit:
What's wrong with Bonjour/Hi? :S
 

Terrell

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,624
Canada
What's wrong with Bonjour/Hi? :S

Well, I mean.... if you need an English supplement to understand what "bonjour" means, especially in a dominantly French locale where the word is spoken in pretty much every interaction, there is literally no helping such a person. Even Americans know what that word means without assistance. Kindergarteners know what that word means. It just seems wholly unnecessary.
 
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hibikase

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,820
Well, I mean.... if you need an English supplement to understand what "bonjour" means, especially in a dominantly French locale where the word is spoken in pretty much every interaction, there is literally no helping such a person. Even Americans know what that word means without assistance. It just seems wholly unnecessary.

This.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,308
Well, I mean.... if you need an English supplement to understand what "bonjour" means, especially in a dominantly French locale where the word is spoken in pretty much every interaction, there is literally no helping such a person. Even Americans know what that word means without assistance. It just seems wholly unnecessary.
Not every tourist is American, and sure, most people in the world know what Bonjour means, but the Hi isn't so much a translation as a way for the clerk to say "we also speak English, if you need it".

It's 100% harmless. I can't imagine anyone giving a shit about public servants and clerks saying that. Sorry.
 

gutter_trash

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
17,124
Montreal
Well, I mean.... if you need an English supplement to understand what "bonjour" means, especially in a dominantly French locale where the word is spoken in pretty much every interaction, there is literally no helping such a person. Even Americans know what that word means without assistance. It just seems wholly unnecessary.
Montreal is an unofficial bilingual city, both languages are in full usage full time. Tourism argument may be one but it is also for servicing two big languages spoken massively in the city.

English has existed in Montreal for 200+ years. Pretending that it is a new phenomenon is plain ignorance.
What do you want to do? Silence everyone from speaking different languages? LOL that is absurd.

I speak Portuguese when I got to shops in Little Portugal and they are happy when I do. It is nice to see the grand-children of the shop owners speak Portuguese (and also speak English and French too, omg Trilinguals, how do they do it?)
 

Terrell

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,624
Canada
Not every tourist is American, and sure, most people in the world know what Bonjour means, but the Hi isn't so much a translation as a way for the clerk to say "we also speak English, if you need it".

It's 100% harmless. I can't imagine anyone giving a shit about public servants and clerks saying that. Sorry.

In that context, it makes a lot more sense why it's a thing. While I have no means to verify that this is true 100% of the time, I trust that to be the case in the vast majority of instances, so I rescind my comment.
 
Oct 25, 2017
319
Ottawa, Canada
I speak Portuguese when I got to shops in Little Portugal and they are happy when I do. It is nice to see the grand-children of the shop owners speak Portuguese (and also speak English and French too, omg Trilinguals, how do they do it?)

Trilingual? You're clearly a member of the Laurentian super-elite. That's the only way to explain how you could speak three languages! And that's something that can only be done in the Montreal-Toronto corridor, too.
 

gutter_trash

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
17,124
Montreal
Trilingual? You're clearly a member of the Laurentian super-elite. That's the only way to explain how you could speak three languages! And that's something that can only be done in the Montreal-Toronto corridor, too.
my case was just dumb luck.
I grew up in three environments where I learned my 3 languages out of circumstance of living at home in a Portuguese household, spent the first 4 years of my life in an English speaking neighborhood and watch lots of cartoons, then from age 5 lived in a French speaking neighborhood and went to school in French as a child of Bill 101.

Politicians are the worst of the worst when it comes to a child's development and learning a new language.

the best time to learn a language during a child's pre-school years ever before he/she sets foot in a kindergarten. Those are the years where a child's brain acts as a communication sponge.

Learning a new language gets increasingly more difficult with age and ultra hard in adulthood.

The politicians, The Conservatives out West and the PQ in Quebec are the assholes who restrict the development of kids learning a 2nd language.

Grade 4? that's way to late. That's when they started teaching English in Quebec during my time. The other kids in the class struggle and were unable to learn English. They made us listen to freakin' audio tapes and left us be.
What a joke. Thank God television was there for me
 
OP
OP
Caz

Caz

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,055
Canada
If you're going to be on the Supreme Court...yeah you should be able to speak English & French or be required to take some courses to work towards becoming fluent in one or both of the languages. In general, a greater effort needs to be made towards making bilingualism a standard requirement for entry into areas such as law (again, with the possibility of providing education to allow people to become fluent in one or both of the languages deemed necessary).

A UCP MLA recently said that legalizing marijuana will lead to a communist revolution in Canada.This is not the only UCP MLA to say something awful about marijuana today.


I, for one, welcome our socialist, feminist, gender fluid revolution which will lead to all citizens enjoying legal marijuana and produce a wave of tears from crusty white men.
 
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Pedrito

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,368
I sure hope the tax cuts nonsense south of the border won't be used here to justify lowering taxes because "Canada is no longer competitive". I assume the Cons will jump on that opportunity to join that race to the bottom. I don't really trust that the Liberals won't do the same.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,161
Is this Wafic Said something people will care about, or is it so obtuse that Canadian news agencies are just so desperate to find Canadian connections to the Paradise Papers that they'll run anything that mentions Canada?
 
Oct 25, 2017
319
Ottawa, Canada
Is this Wafic Said something people will care about, or is it so obtuse that Canadian news agencies are just so desperate to find Canadian connections to the Paradise Papers that they'll run anything that mentions Canada?

I have to assume it's the latter, seeing as (I learned after googling it) he seems to have gotten his citizenship about 25 years ago. Everyone involved in that process would either be retired or close to it, and -- as is the case with most of these "revelations" -- he doesn't seem to have actually done anything wrong, apart from moving his money around to avoid higher taxes (and that being wrong is entirely subjective). Am I missing something?

I sure hope the tax cuts nonsense south of the border won't be used here to justify lowering taxes because "Canada is no longer competitive". I assume the Cons will jump on that opportunity to join that race to the bottom. I don't really trust that the Liberals won't do the same.

The only time I can think of tax cuts and Canada's competitiveness being brought up in an election was 2000, when Stockwell Day held a disastrous photo op next to a river near the Canada-US border that he said symbolized investment flowing south into the US. (The river actually flowed north into Canada.) You'll get the occasional flat tax nutter pop up, and there was a tiny bit of coverage around the NDP promising to raise the corporate tax rate in 2015 to pay for their other promises, but I think most people are okay with taxes as long as they help pay for health care and social services.
 

Fuzzy

Completely non-threatening
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,127
Toronto
I went through English immersion in 6th grade some 20+ years ago. Our Ontarian "twins" during the student exchange trip were doing French immersion.

We spoke English the entire time we were in Ontario. We had entire conversations in English the whole time. When it was their turn to come to Québec, none of them could speak French whatsoever. Couldn't hold a conversation, could barely string a coherent sentence. My parents, who suck at English, practiced their English more than these Ontarian kids practiced their French. It was really pathetic.

I don't want to generalize all French immersion classes based on my personal experience, but I sure as hell was unimpressed. xD I do have a friend who grew up in Vancouver (moved to Montreal when she was about 13 or 15) who did French immersion, and while she's definitely an anglo, her French is remarkably good when she decides to speak it, with only a light accent even. So I know it's not universally bad. But still, the same thing happened to my brother when he did his immersion class two years before me.
It's because we just don't care about French. My French teacher wanted my friend and I to go to French immersion school and I refused because I didn't care about actually learning the language. I was good with getting great grades each year and was happy when I was done after the 9th grade even though I got 98%. My friend did go for two years then came back to English public school and he said it was a waste of time. 20+ years later and I can't speak it at all (he's not much better) and I don't feel like I'm missing anything.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,308
It's because we just don't care about French. My French teacher wanted my friend and I to go to French immersion school and I refused because I didn't care about actually learning the language
Well, yeah. You don't care, so you refused to join the immersion class/school.

The kids I'm talking about were actually taking that immersion class... if they didn't care, they were in the wrong program, or the program sucked at drawing in people that cared. Or the program just sucked at teaching them. :shrug:
 

hibikase

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,820
but the Hi isn't so much a translation as a way for the clerk to say "we also speak English, if you need it".

Nobody is ever going to think otherwise in Montréal. Sometimes it's actually harder to get served in French in this damn city, so that reasoning is laughable at best.

Anyway I'm done arguing this. Nevermind I said anything.
 

gutter_trash

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
17,124
Montreal
I don't get why this gets so much hate. The fact that people want to stop people from saying a greeting with state force is really telling about Quebec's hostility towards anglophones. It's hard to see that as anything else but that.
the citizens of Montreal live their lives un-officially bilingually but are expected to act as an exclusively French city officially within a Officially French Province by the standard dictated by an homogeneous National Assemble and City Council.

Montreal's citizens are not adequately represented diversely at City Hall nor at the National Assembly.

So you have this homogeneous political class that panders to the majority of the Province's population to squash actual Montrealers' real day-to-day lives.

Francophone News Media and TV Media are near 99.9% homogeneous with little to zero diversity.
So naturally, in French Radio and French papers, they will give their homogeneous opinionated views when it comes language.

the other problem is that cities are bitches to the Province. Montreal doesn't have powers like New York City or San Francisco do in their own states. Montreal legally is powerless to the the Province of Quebec.

IMO, I love my city but I don't give a shit about my province. We are on an island surrounded by haters.
 

Fuzzy

Completely non-threatening
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,127
Toronto
Well, yeah. You don't care, so you refused to join the immersion class/school.

The kids I'm talking about were actually taking that immersion class... if they didn't care, they were in the wrong program, or the program sucked at drawing in people that cared. Or the program just sucked at teaching them. :shrug:
Or the program is a waste of time unless you want to live/work in French communities or work for the government.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,308
Nobody is ever going to think otherwise in Montréal. Sometimes it's actually harder to get served in French in this damn city, so that reasoning is laughable at best.
That's not even true. I've had times where I was with American friends at a restaurant near my place, and the menus were only in French, and while the staff spoke some English, they weren't so good at it and I had to help translate. Another time, I was on a bus, and a passenger started asking question to the driver and he responded (quite rudely, unfortunately) "Je parle pas anglais moi" and kind of ignored the passenger (I answered their question in place of the driver). And another time I was with anglo friends getting ice cream somewhere, and when they ordered, the clerk smiled nervously and turned to a co-worker apologetically because they didn't understand.

Add to the fact that Montreal, being in Québec, has the perception of being a French city on an international level. Can't count the number of times I've had people ask me "I want to go to Montreal but I don't speak French, will I be OK?", even for things like just visiting. So it's not true that "nobody is going to think otherwise". Tourists come from all over, and might not know how anglo-friendly Montreal usually is.

Most service staff in Montreal speak English. And it's true that in some places, especially Chinatown, it's sometimes harder to get served in French than English. But it's not that universal. And honestly... being offended at "Bonjour/Hi" is just completely unfathomable to me. It's harmless at the worst, helpful at best.

Or the program is a waste of time unless you want to live/work in French communities or work for the government.
That's not the point, which is that these people still joined it. If you think the program is a waste of time and don't enter it, fine. If you do enter it, and it's useless for actually learning French, that's a problem.
 

gutter_trash

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
17,124
Montreal
If you are going into pharmaceuticals or aerospace jobs, you can't expect to live in the Laurentiens in English only.

Kids don't know what career path they will go towards. Within Canada some jobs require both, some other jobs are geographically located in Francophone regions.

You never know where the job market goes.

Game industry included
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,161
I have to assume it's the latter, seeing as (I learned after googling it) he seems to have gotten his citizenship about 25 years ago. Everyone involved in that process would either be retired or close to it, and -- as is the case with most of these "revelations" -- he doesn't seem to have actually done anything wrong, apart from moving his money around to avoid higher taxes (and that being wrong is entirely subjective). Am I missing something?

The implication is that a) he's a criminal arms dealer (the British were trying to investigate him until Blair was "paid off" and b) Mulroney gave him free Canadian citizenship years ago and c) he recently gave Mulroney 4 million dollars to fund the Mulroney School of Politics (or whatever) at St. Xavier.
 

Shoot

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,531
Why can't French immersion be mandatory in the rest of Canada? Aside from immigrants, it makes a lot of sense to me for a bilingual country. Every citizen should have the opportunity to grow up with both languages (including those in Quebec).

I feel like if we did that, it might make Quebec a little less insecure about their language and would help with national unity.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,308
Why can't French immersion be mandatory in the rest of Canada? Aside from immigrants, it makes a lot of sense to me for a bilingual country. Every citizen should have the opportunity to grow up with both languages (including those in Quebec).

I feel like if we did that, it might make Quebec a little less insecure about their language and would help with national unity.
I fully agree, but (yes I'm generalizing, I doubt I'm wrong though) the RoC largely doesn't care about French or even Québec. You had even a few posts just on this page saying so.

Sorry if I sound bitter. I've had a few very recent personal experiences where this was in full display. It was as if Québec didn't even exist for these people. Bah.
 

enzo_gt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,299
Why can't French immersion be mandatory in the rest of Canada? Aside from immigrants, it makes a lot of sense to me for a bilingual country. Every citizen should have the opportunity to grow up with both languages (including those in Quebec).

I feel like if we did that, it might make Quebec a little less insecure about their language and would help with national unity.
Wait what?

Opportunity and mandating are two completely different things. The opportunity exists already in the form of advanced french classes. For most, it is functionally unnecessary, and bending over backwards and mandating french immersion (which would also be pretty expensive even before you get to feasibility) to appease people with extreme beliefs in Quebec sounds backwards.

There are tens of social programs I'd rather education and federal funding to go towards before mandating bilingualism.
 
OP
OP
Caz

Caz

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,055
Canada
Speaking of language, how does everyone feel about teaching indigenous languages in schools across Canada? I know I would have loved to learn Ojibwe or Cree during my secondary school years and beyond were it an option.
 

Mr.Mike

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,677
English is an important lingua franca. /s

More seriously, learning a second language helps you understand your own language better. There's a lot of stuff about language that people just intuit in their native tongue, and never really understand.

As for how to spread bilingualism effectively, basically every single one of my male cousins and female cousin's husbands learned English from playing video games and now work as Software Engineers in Wrocław, where English is the language they use at work because there are people from all over the EU. Point is, we should give every child in Canada French language video games for free. Not edutainment stuff but stuff they'll actually play. ( I hope the kids like Ubisoft Montreal open-world games.)
 
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Fuzzy

Completely non-threatening
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,127
Toronto
I fully agree, but (yes I'm generalizing, I doubt I'm wrong though) the RoC largely doesn't care about French or even Québec. You had even a few posts just on this page saying so.

Sorry if I sound bitter. I've had a few very recent personal experiences where this was in full display. It was as if Québec didn't even exist for these people. Bah.
Don't worry, as a Torontonian I don't care about the RoC most of the time, not just Quebec. ;)
 
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