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What tendency/ideology do you best align with?

  • Anarchism

    Votes: 125 12.0%
  • Marxism

    Votes: 86 8.2%
  • Marxism-Leninism

    Votes: 79 7.6%
  • Left Communism

    Votes: 19 1.8%
  • Democratic Socialism

    Votes: 423 40.6%
  • Social Democracy

    Votes: 238 22.8%
  • Other

    Votes: 73 7.0%

  • Total voters
    1,043
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Even though i haven't seen Death Of Stalin yet. I thought this was a good review, and thought you guys might be interested in it.


I still need to see this!

In other news, I found two pretty good articles that take head on the notion that neoliberal capitalism has helped severely reduce world poverty though they're drawing on a lot of the same data.

...

According to the Credit Suisse Global Wealth Databook 2016, the median wealth of the world's adults is $2,222, down from $3,248 at the end of 2007. While the rich people of the world have taken more than their share of the $35 trillion wealth gain since the recession, the world median has dropped by over $1,000!

There are other recent indications of rising poverty. Based again on Credit Suisse wealth data, in just seven years the world's Gini Coefficient, the most widely accepted measure of inequality, has surged from 88.1 to 92.7. Wealth inequality between countries has grown dramatically. It's a stunning rise, further evidence of a world splitting into two.

A widely held misconception is that global inequality between countries is declining because of growth in China and other developing countries. But that claim is generally made with respect to income inequality, and it is only partially true. Global income inequality is down only in relative terms, in the sense that an income boost from $1 to $2 a day is greater in percentage than an income boost from $1,000 to $1,500 a day.

...

The world poverty threshold was recently increased by the World Bank from $1.25 to $1.90 per day. Numerous sources have recognized the absurdity of this dollar amount for day-to-day survival. The United Nations Conference on Trade and Development argues for a $5 minimum; ActionAid says $10; even the World Bank admits that the $1.90 poverty line is "too miserly for middle-income countries," and that"more than 50 percent of the population in IDA [the world's poorest] countries live on less than US $6 a day and are considered at high or moderate risk of relapsing into poverty."

In addition, the poverty threshold has not kept up with inflation. The World Bank set the first poverty threshold to $1.01/day using 1985 purchasing power parity. It eventually raised the threshold to $1.90/day at 2011 purchasing power parity. But with inflation, $1.01 in 1985 is equivalent to $2.10 in 2011. The World Bank's most recent threshold adjustment falls far short of realistic human needs.

Most of the so-called "escape from poverty" has occurred in China, where starting in the 1980s millions of residents of farming communities moved en masse to the cities for jobs in the factories of technology and in service-related positions.

...

China may have pulled millions "out of poverty," but in reality they've gained a few dollars a day while the country has become increasingly unequal in terms of wealth....

It goes well beyond China. BBC journalist Paul Mason writes that the developing world middle class is characterized by life in a "chaotic mega-city, cheek-by-jowl with abject poverty and crime, crowding on to makeshift public transport systems and seeing your income leach away into the pockets of all kinds of corrupt officials.." In a review of Mike Davis' "Planet of Slums," urban areas are described as "horizontal spreads of unplanned squats and shantytowns, unsightly dumps of humans and waste, where child labour is the norm, child prostitution is commonplace, gangs and paramilitaries rule and there is no access to clean water or sanitation, let alone to education or democratic institutions." And, ironically, this is caused in great part by the policies of neoliberal institutions such as the World Bank, which would have us believe that conditions are steadily getting better....
https://www.alternet.org/economy/only-capitalists-think-poverty-down?utm_content=buffer28551

...

China's economy is an example of successful neoliberal economic policy!? In several posts I have shown that China is not a free market economy by any stretch of the evidence and may not even be described as capitalist. It is state-owned and controlled with investment and production state-directed, with profit secondary to growth as the objective. Indeed, the IMF data on the size of public investment and stock globally put China in a different league compared to any other economy in the world.

As for India, the state sector also remains significant, something which continually upsets the World Bank and neoliberal economists. The policy measures of the 1990s can hardly be used as the explanation of the pick-up in economic growth in India. During the 1990s, productivity growth in all the major 'emerging economies' picked up – only to fall back again after the Great Recession. Globalisation and foreign capital were drivers then everywhere.

Anyway it is not really true that Indian government policy is 'neo-liberal' – on the contrary. In contrast, the clear shock switch to neoliberal capitalism by Russia's post-Soviet governments and its oligarchs was a total disaster (Smith calls it a 'mixed success'!). Growth, living standards and life expectancy collapsed. Indeed, the conclusion that might be drawn is not that 'neo-liberal reforms' have driven the relative economic success of China and India in the last 30 years but their resistance to such policies.

...

Now Marx was the first to note the tremendous boost to production that the capitalist mode of production delivered compared to previous modes. But as I have shown in previous posts, there is another side to capitalism's early years: the immiseration of the working class. And that is a different reality from Smith's claims.

Back in 2013, the World Bank released a report that there were 1.2bn people living on less than $1.25 a day, one-third of whom were children. The World Bank raised its official poverty line to $1.90 a day and Smith refers to sources based on this threshold. This merely adjusted the old $1.25 figure for changes in the purchasing power of the US dollar. But it meant that global poverty was reduced by 100m people overnight.

And, as Jason Hickel points out, this $1.90 is ridiculously low. A minimum threshold would be $5 a day that the US Department of Agriculture calculated was the very minimum necessary to buy sufficient food. And that's not taking account of other requirements for survival, such as shelter and clothing. Hickel shows that in India, children living at $1.90 a day still have a 60% chance of being malnourished. In Niger, infants living at $1.90 have a mortality rate three times higher the global average.

In a 2006 paper, Peter Edward of Newcastle University used an "ethical poverty line" that calculates that, in order to achieve normal human life expectancy of just over 70 years, people need roughly 2.7 to 3.9 times the existing poverty line. In the past, that was $5 a day. Using the World Bank's new calculations, it's about $7.40 a day. That delivers a figure of about 4.2 billion people living below that level today; or up 1 billion over the past 35 years.

Some argue that the reason there are more people in poverty is because there are more people! The world's population has risen in the last 25 years. You need to look at the proportion of the world population in poverty and, at a $1.90 cut-off, the proportion under the line has dropped from 35% to 11% between 1990 and 2013. So Smith is right after all. But this is disingenuous, to say the least.

The absolute number of people in poverty, even at the ridiculously low threshold level of $1.25 a day, has still increased, even if not as much as the total population in the last 25 years. And even then, all this optimistic expert evidence is really based on the dramatic improvement in average incomes in China (and to a lesser extent in India).

...

Exclude China and total poverty was unchanged in most regions, while rising significantly in sub-Saharan Africa. And, according to the World Bank, in 2010, the "average" poor person in a low-income country lived on 78 cents a day in 2010, compared to 74 cents a day in 1981, hardly any change. But this improvement was all in China and India. In India, the average income of the poor rose to 96 cents in 2010, compared to 84 cents in 1981, while China's average poor's income rose to 95 cents, compared to 67 cents.

Moreover, poverty levels should not be confused with inequality of incomes or wealth. On the latter, the evidence of rising inequality of wealth globally is well recorded . The latest annual report by Credit Suisse on global personal wealth found that top 1% of personal wealth holders globally now have over 50% of the world's wealth – up from 45% ten years ago. Actually, the majority of people in the major advanced capitalist economies will be in the top 10% of wealth holders because billions of people have no wealth at all!

...

The empirical evidence supports Marx's view that, under capitalism, poverty (as defined) and inequality of income and wealth have not really improved under capitalism, neoliberal or otherwise. Any improvement in poverty levels globally, however measured, is mainly explained by in state-controlled China and any improvement in the quality and length of life comes from the application of science and knowledge through state spending on education, on sewage, clean water, disease prevention and protection, hospitals and better child development. These are things that do not come from capitalism but from the common weal....
https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2017/11/27/neoliberalism-works-for-the-world/

My primary problem with the second article is that he continues to harp on China being not "really" capitalist, but I think it does serve its point in making note that much of China's improvements stem from some kind of central involvement. Wonder what the place would look like if they had followed Russia off the deep end in the 90s.
 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
It's "no true capitalism" 101. Government intervention does not negate "the free market", because there is no such thing. Every entity is political and any political entity with enough political cache will either influence or monopolize the market in its own favor. Capitalism is a vertical structure after-all.

Russia as it exists now is not much different than how it existed as the USSR. Politically, especially. Strong autonomous strong-man governance. The only thing that was cast off was the strong welfare state and in the process they lost a few satellites. Otherwise the body politic stayed relatively static.


I am very interested in seeing "Death of Stalin" based on cast alone.


Change comes through the convergence of many different factors. Major events are tipping points sure, but they also emerge at particular junction points. i.e., there was a long lead up to the factors which resulted in the second world war, including the first world war...This kind of discussion - gradualism vs punctuated equilibrium - used to characterise discussions in evolutionary biology. In reality, it is a combination and interrelation of many changes occuring in many areas, and large changes happening when shit hits the fan.

Materialist interpretation of history and societal change are two different things. WW1 and WW2 were major eruptions in global politics and while WW1 precipitated a potential social change, both of these major events were contradictions within capitalism. The way of life retirmed to the status quo thereafter.
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
House_Of_Lightning said:
Russia as it exists now is not much different than how it existed as the USSR. Politically, especially. Strong autonomous strong-man governance. The only thing that was cast off was the strong welfare state and in the process they lost a few satellites. Otherwise the body politic stayed relatively static.

Right, but it is quite a different flavor of capitalism they're working with now. That welfare state made a big difference, considering how they plunged into the abyss following the end of the USSR and how it took two decades to build themselves back up.
 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
But that also serves as to why reformism doesn't work. The implementation of Capital in the USSR to bolster over worker support was quickly removed under the facade of popular mass movements. The political and economic structure of the country remained static, they just privatized the economy and quit spending money on social benefits.

That can/will happen to any other country that is simply built on welfarism. The Stalinist Parties at least had the single Party monopoly on power to, to a degree, ensure that those benefits were maintained. But that also comes at the cost of things like you're seeing in Vietnam this month, with the support for Trump and the detaining of journalists in interest of "stability" and growth.
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Of course. It's hard to imagine how they would have avoided that after in one fashion or another after the NEP went into effect though.
 

Hat22

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,652
Canada
Is it valid to expect people who identify as socialist to avoid luxury products and excessive spending? I don't really consider myself a socialist, but I lean hard to the left and have a lot of disdain for consumerism. I know people always post that comic in response to people who give leftists shit for posting from an iPhone or whatever, but I feel like it makes sense on a certain level to avoid supporting a broken system more than you have to. Would you criticize someone for driving a BMW for instance, when they could get a used Toyota?

The ones that celebrate Steve Jobs as a hero while waving the hammer and sickle should be suspect.

The ones that are rich should be entirely disregarded.
 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
The ones that celebrate Steve Jobs as a hero while waving the hammer and sickle should be suspect.

The ones that are rich should be entirely disregarded.

"Rich" doesn't mean anything as money has nothing to do with class.


Personal wealth can lead to reactionary politics but class is wholly defined by relation to capital. You can also be proletarian but have a bourgeois political outlook.
 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
Nothing forces a person to be fabulously wealthy and live in a palatial estate.

These sorts of people just use the ideas to make themselves look good and sell their books.


We all live in Capitalism and Capitalism compels us to accumulate.

If you can "get yours" without being exploitative or abusive, uncaring, or reactionary then it's a non issue.

That said I also agree with you. Though your idea of rich = "palatial estates" so it was my mistake assuming you were generalizing Too much. I've seen shitty "Leftists" in 2k a month SoCal apartments rage about people who mortgage their homes as if those people were rich.


But shitty politics are shitty politics. I see plenty of people on LeftBook/LeftReddit/LeftTwitter etc trying to monetize their internet fame and opinions.

We have a thread dedicated to these people here in ERA. :D
 

Deleted member 721

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,416
There's no problem to be a socialist youtuber and writer and live from this money. The problem is to be hypocrite If the person only does this to win money.
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Short interview with Lee Carter and Braxton Winston from Democracy Now. Nothing particularly new, but I find it interesting that Carter seems to be getting the most attention of the DSA candidates that were recently elected. Maybe because he can easily appeal to white working class guys due to his background?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=w9fm_dAPiFA
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
We need more Lee Carters going forward.

Do you mean more DSA members who are elected or specifically more socialists who can appeal to white voters? I think the latter is important in the same way that I want socialists who can appeal to all communities, so long as they do not neglect solidarity with other groups and causes.
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
Do you mean more DSA members who are elected or specifically more socialists who can appeal to white voters? I think the latter is important in the same way that I want socialists who can appeal to all communities, so long as they do not neglect solidarity with other groups and causes.

I assumed he meant that we should use human cloning to create an revolutionary army of the people made up entirely of Lee Carters.
 

Foffy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,395
Do you mean more DSA members who are elected or specifically more socialists who can appeal to white voters? I think the latter is important in the same way that I want socialists who can appeal to all communities, so long as they do not neglect solidarity with other groups and causes.

My bar is low.

Don't be a fiscal terrorist.

Anything but the GOP.
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
Truly we will construct the New Soviet Man.

I'm actually kind of fascinated by socialist realism. The Soviets weren't great at some aspects of socialism, like not collapsing into a fascist dictatorship, but they had a keen understanding of the importance of a cultural narrative in getting people on board. Lysenkoism seems related. (Which is bad, I guess, but still interesting.)
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
I'm actually kind of fascinated by socialist realism. The Soviets weren't great at some aspects of socialism, like not collapsing into a fascist dictatorship, but they had a keen understanding of the importance of a cultural narrative in getting people on board. Lysenkoism seems related. (Which is bad, I guess, but still interesting.)

That's probably the most understated criticism of Lysenkoism I've ever seen.

I get the ideological purpose of socialist realism but it's just so boring in comparison to what came before it. The art during the revolution and the 20s was much more varied and wild and while it was used as propaganda it felt like for a lot of artists it was genuine. They were exploring new styles and techniques and it's all just very much more interesting. Then Stalin happened.

Some of the architecture in his period looks cool at least I guess.

Regarding the New Soviet Man, I think it's a pretty interesting concept and one that had merit due to the way that human actions are influenced by the material conditions they exist within, but the way that the Soviets turned it into a specific ideal was obviously to enforce social control. As usual they took an interesting concept and bastardizedit it, particularly with the way they shoved women back into the home. But their whole NSM concept is a reflection of their larger obsession with modernity and man being able to harness nature and bend it to do his bidding. I think, and I hope, especially with the climate disasters coming up, 21st century socialists will be more accommodating to the idea that man exists within nature instead of being its master.
 

Shy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,520
I think, and I hope, especially with the climate disasters coming up, 21st century socialists will be more accommodating to the idea that man exists within nature instead of being its master.
It should be one of the fundamental principles of 21st century socialism.

Along with fully embarrassing P.O.C, women and LGBTQ.

You'd think the second point would be a non-issue. But unfortunately it has to keep being said.

And if it can't adhere to both of these two principles, it can die in a fire.
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
That's probably the most understated criticism of Lysenkoism I've ever seen.

Hey, man, I'm just trying to identify what cows are sacred in this thread without getting gored again! So far I have TPP bad, Lysenkoism bad, dekulakification mixed. It's difficult to keep straight!

What I was trying to say was that Lysenkoism had a specific ideological justification, which was observing that science done in a capitalist framework would inevitably be entwined with capitalist assumptions, and thus a socialist society would need socialist science just as it needed socialist art. Obviously the specific science that resulted was very bad and killed millions, which I think is widely agreed to be an error. But I actually think the argument you make here about the importance of holistic and systemic scientific understanding of the world is in some ways not so far removed from saying that "survival of the fittest" is ultimately a capitalist paradigm, in which everything in the world is in conflict because that's just how life is*, and that that doesn't need to be the frame for us to still be able to do effective science. Ultimately a natural ecosystem is cooperative! The problem in practice was that Lysenko wasn't actually a scientist and the Soviet Union wasn't a functional state.


* Before another dumb conversation starts, I'm not saying that evolution isn't real, either. I'm saying that the idea of zero-sum competition for resources between individual animals of the same species is a human projection and it's worth thinking about why that's our model.
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Hey, man, I'm just trying to identify what cows are sacred in this thread without getting gored again! So far I have TPP bad, Lysenkoism bad, dekulakification mixed. It's difficult to keep straight!

Pigeon, my friend, there are no sacred cows. Everything must be subject to ruthless criticism.

Except we can't make jokes about guillotines.

What I was trying to say was that Lysenkoism had a specific ideological justification, which was observing that science done in a capitalist framework would inevitably be entwined with capitalist assumptions, and thus a socialist society would need socialist science just as it needed socialist art. Obviously the specific science that resulted was very bad and killed millions, which I think is widely agreed to be an error. But I actually think the argument you make here about the importance of holistic and systemic scientific understanding of the world is in some ways not so far removed from saying that "survival of the fittest" is ultimately a capitalist paradigm, in which everything in the world is in conflict because that's just how life is*, and that that doesn't need to be the frame for us to still be able to do effective science. Ultimately a natural ecosystem is cooperative! The problem in practice was that Lysenko wasn't actually a scientist and the Soviet Union wasn't a functional state.


* Before another dumb conversation starts, I'm not saying that evolution isn't real, either. I'm saying that the idea of zero-sum competition for resources between individual animals of the same species is a human projection and it's worth thinking about why that's our model.

Agreed, though I would say a natural ecosystem can be both cooperative and competitive at the same time. The struggle that can exist between some organisms for resources ends up turning into some sort of transformed system. If I were to be so bold I might even say that there is a dialectical relationship resulting in a new synthesis.

Now let me tell you why we should kill sparrows.
 

Bronx-Man

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,351
I don't know why, but as time goes on I feel like there's something.....off about DSA. I can't describe it but there's just something that doesn't sit right with me. Part of me feels like they're way more concerned with Sticking It to Liberals than they are with enacting real leftist political change.

This is gonna sound weird but I just innately trust leftist organizations ran by PoC/QPoC more than DSA itself. I think electing a literal police union organizer to the Policy Committee probably had something to do with it.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
I don't know how much of my negative perception of the DSA is really just related to Twitter bullshit. But part of why I was excited to see several of their candidates win in the recent elections is because they now have a chance to prove what they can do when they actually win seats. I am still highly skeptical of the organization, but I want it to get its shit together and prove me wrong

I am more concerned about some things I see coming from Young Labour over in the UK, but I'm also not on the ground there so its all secondhand
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
I don't know why, but as time goes on I feel like there's something.....off about DSA. I can't describe it but there's just something that doesn't sit right with me. Part of me feels like they're way more concerned with Sticking It to Liberals than they are with enacting real leftist political change.

This is gonna sound weird but I just innately trust leftist organizations ran by PoC/QPoC more than DSA itself. I think electing a literal police union organizer to the Policy Committee probably had something to do with it.

I don't think that sounds weird at all. The DSA has exploded in numbers recently and a decent amount of new members are the Chapo crowd who want to make. It clear that they see themselves as distinct from and superior to the Democrats. This overlaps with white male socialists who often have a blind spot regarding what minorities face or what sorts of goals they want to achieve and how. I would assume some of the types you refer to might also be linked to Refoundation, which is pushing for a more hardline Marxist position and the evolution of the DSA into a workers party. I'm sympathetic to that particular cause ideologically but I don't think it makes much sense strategically.

Regarding Fetonte, pretty much everyone except the higher up were mad at his election and IIRC most people weren't aware that he was a police organizer. So while I do think that doesn't reflect well on the "bureaucrats", the campaign to get him ejected does reflect well on the base.

I guess the good thing with the DSA is that it is so ideologically varied and so dynamic at the moment that I think it's possible to push for better recognition of and support for whatever sorts of things anyone wants to push for. The organization itself is aware of its need for more inclusion, hence why they ran a diverse set of candidates in the elections this month to try to shed the white image. I guess it comes down to how well individual chapters handle the issue though. But it's easier to change things in a local scale than national.
 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
Hey, man, I'm just trying to identify what cows are sacred in this thread without getting gored again! So far I have TPP bad, Lysenkoism bad, dekulakification mixed. It's difficult to keep straight!

What I was trying to say was that Lysenkoism had a specific ideological justification, which was observing that science done in a capitalist framework would inevitably be entwined with capitalist assumptions, and thus a socialist society would need socialist science just as it needed socialist art. Obviously the specific science that resulted was very bad and killed millions, which I think is widely agreed to be an error. But I actually think the argument you make here about the importance of holistic and systemic scientific understanding of the world is in some ways not so far removed from saying that "survival of the fittest" is ultimately a capitalist paradigm, in which everything in the world is in conflict because that's just how life is*, and that that doesn't need to be the frame for us to still be able to do effective science. Ultimately a natural ecosystem is cooperative! The problem in practice was that Lysenko wasn't actually a scientist and the Soviet Union wasn't a functional state.


* Before another dumb conversation starts, I'm not saying that evolution isn't real, either. I'm saying that the idea of zero-sum competition for resources between individual animals of the same species is a human projection and it's worth thinking about why that's our model.


Science is science. What ended up being true? Biology or Lysenkoism?

Ideology is garbage politics.
 

Shy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,520
I don't know why, but as time goes on I feel like there's something.....off about DSA. I can't describe it but there's just something that doesn't sit right with me. Part of me feels like they're way more concerned with Sticking It to Liberals than they are with enacting real leftist political change.
I know what you mean. Too much "being against something" rather "standing up for what they believe in" which we need less of.

Which means they'd be nothing more than a protest party, unelectable and absolutely useless if they were.
This is gonna sound weird but I just innately trust leftist organizations ran by PoC/QPoC more than DSA itself.
No weird at all. It's one of the reasons in my post i made my second point.

What you're anxious about is White Feminism becoming dominant. which would leave large groups of people out in the cold.

Intersectional feminism is what should be pushed, as it cares about, and comprises all communities.
I am more concerned about some things I see coming from Young Labour over in the UK, but I'm also not on the ground there so its all secondhand
What are they saying ?
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
What are they saying ?
I had actually gotten them mixed up and was thinking specifically of an incident that was a DSA meeting involving the chant "from the river to the sea Palestine will be free" which, very complicated realities of the Israel-Palestine conflict (in which, yes, Israel continues to dish out brutality and seize land in a manner that is not justifiable), is a phrase that has actual antisemetic history. That's not to ascribe that antisemetism to everyone involved, of course, but just to be concerned about how stuff like that manages to get in.

Some people I know in the UK are concerned with Young Labour's ability to excise racism from its midst is all, but that's a struggle pretty much every single group of people in American and European politics is struggling with

EDIT: I also just wish I knew of a better way to exert geopolitical influence other than via economic sanctions. I'm not a fan of them, but I don't know what else is better
 

Shy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,520
I had actually gotten them mixed up and was thinking specifically of an incident that was a DSA meeting involving the chant "from the river to the sea Palestine will be free" which, very complicated realities of the Israel-Palestine conflict (in which, yes, Israel continues to dish out brutality and seize land in a manner that is not justifiable), is a phrase that has actual antisemetic history. That's not to ascribe that antisemetism to everyone involved, of course, but just to be concerned about how stuff like that manages to get in.

Some people I know in the UK are concerned with Young Labour's ability to excise racism from its midst is all, but that's a struggle pretty much every single group of people in American and European politics is struggling with

EDIT: I also just wish I knew of a better way to exert geopolitical influence other than via economic sanctions. I'm not a fan of them, but I don't know what else is better
Yeah. That's very worrying.

Not a fan of the antisemetism in the left, at all.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
Yeah. That's very worrying.

Not a fan of the antisemetism in the left, at all.
I don't even know if I'd call it "very worrying" yet, I haven't seen it become too much of a pattern yet. Its just something that I'm keeping an intense eye on, because socialists and dem socialists are just as vulnerable to this stuff creeping in as anybody
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,123
Brooklyn, NY
I don't know why, but as time goes on I feel like there's something.....off about DSA. I can't describe it but there's just something that doesn't sit right with me. Part of me feels like they're way more concerned with Sticking It to Liberals than they are with enacting real leftist political change.

This is gonna sound weird but I just innately trust leftist organizations ran by PoC/QPoC more than DSA itself. I think electing a literal police union organizer to the Policy Committee probably had something to do with it.

DSA has its problems, but I wouldn't judge it on the basis of Twitter. If that's what you're referring to.

The Fetonte thing was shitty, but the large majority of locals and working groups responded appropriately, so I don't think it's necessarily fair to treat it as an indictment of DSA as a whole, provided they reform the NPC election procedures to ensure this doesn't happen again.

Nothing weird or wrong about the PoC part, though.
 

Lafiel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
311
Melbourne, Australia
I don't know why, but as time goes on I feel like there's something.....off about DSA. I can't describe it but there's just something that doesn't sit right with me. Part of me feels like they're way more concerned with Sticking It to Liberals than they are with enacting real leftist political change.

This is gonna sound weird but I just innately trust leftist organizations ran by PoC/QPoC more than DSA itself. I think electing a literal police union organizer to the Policy Committee probably had something to do with it.
But what are examples of left organisations that fit that mold? i.e names.
 

Lafiel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
311
Melbourne, Australia
Other than it strangely fetishizes people of color and the queer community?
Yeah this is what I'm skeptical of. I do feel in the left there is this concerning trend of fetishizing such organisations and overstating their political importance. Within the refugee movement in Australia here I see leftists misguidedly elevating a refugee-led organisation as playing as a leading role in the refugee rights movement over a grassroots collective (that hasn't necessarily done a great job in bringing people of refugee-backgrounds into the fold but that's one flaw) when the former organisation isn't even a activist-based organisation and more of a welfare one that does little to contribute to the political movement of refugee rights and also acts quite sectarian towards the latter leaning on it's identity politics cred.

That said I do believe parties like Black Panthers are shining examples of PoC-led left political organisations that have done so much for the left generally historically, and totally for that kind of autonomous organisation.
I mentioned it before but the modern prison abolition movement is a great example, in addition to being a great example for how radical movements can work on both short term, mid term and long term goals
Yeah that's great, but I'm looking for more what kind of socialist organisations in the US are playing a strong role of developing PoC political leadership and so-on. That's really the important question I think for a lot of left-organisations not necessarily whether they have x amount of PoC but whether they are playing the role of empowering PoC who are members of their organisation.

I had actually gotten them mixed up and was thinking specifically of an incident that was a DSA meeting involving the chant "from the river to the sea Palestine will be free" which, very complicated realities of the Israel-Palestine conflict (in which, yes, Israel continues to dish out brutality and seize land in a manner that is not justifiable), is a phrase that has actual antisemetic history. That's not to ascribe that antisemetism to everyone involved, of course, but just to be concerned about how stuff like that manages to get in.
Coming from the Australian experience I'd be very skeptical of a lot of these claims of anti-semetism towards the left as most of the stuff I've heard has absolutely no basis and actually ignores that a lot of the leading solidarity activists in Palestine Solidarity across the world are of jewish background, I don't think the left should have any tolerance for anti-semetism though, but that chant is frequently heard at all palestine solidarity demos and this is the first I've heard ever that it has anti-semetic connotations, especially since the jewish community here plays such a large role in building palestine solidarity and have never raised that phrase as being a problem.

And a lot of stuff in the UK accusing the labor party of being anti-semitic while there was some basis there, but a lot of it was pushed by blairites looking to undermine the Corbyn leadership of the labor party who unlike a lot of elements in that party has a clear and principled position of Palestine.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
6,123
Brooklyn, NY
I think maybe you just like using words you don't know the meaning of.





Other than it strangely fetishizes people of color and the queer community?

I don't think it's necessarily fetishizing POC, though that is something to be wary of. More that learning from female, POC, and queer leftists is a good way to keep in check any blind spots on those issues that leftists who don't fall into all (or any) of those categories may have.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,123
Brooklyn, NY
Yeah this is what I'm skeptical of. I do feel in the left there is this concerning trend of fetishizing such organisations and overstating their political importance. Within the refugee movement in Australia here I see leftists misguidedly elevating a refugee-led organisation as playing as a leading role in the refugee rights movement over a grassroots collective (that hasn't necessarily done a great job in bringing people of refugee-backgrounds into the fold but that's one flaw) when the former organisation isn't even a activist-based organisation and more of a welfare one that does little to contribute to the political movement of refugee rights and also acts quite sectarian towards the latter leaning on it's identity politics cred.

That said I do believe parties like Black Panthers are shining examples of PoC-led left political organisations that have done so much for the left generally historically, and totally for that kind of autonomous organisation.

Yeah that's great, but I'm looking for more what kind of socialist organisations in the US are playing a strong role of developing PoC political leadership and so-on. That's really the important question I think for a lot of left-organisations not necessarily whether they have x amount of PoC but whether they are playing the role of empowering PoC who are members of their organisation.


Coming from the Australian experience I'd be very skeptical of a lot of these claims of anti-semetism towards the left as most of the stuff I've heard has absolutely no basis and actually ignores that a lot of the leading solidarity activists in Palestine Solidarity across the world are of jewish background, I don't think the left should have any tolerance for anti-semetism though, but that chant is frequently heard at all palestine solidarity demos and this is the first I've heard ever that it has anti-semetic connotations, especially since the jewish community here plays such a large role in building palestine solidarity and have never raised that phrase as being a problem.

And a lot of stuff in the UK accusing the labor party of being anti-semitic while there was some basis there, but a lot of it was pushed by blairites looking to undermine the Corbyn leadership of the labor party who unlike a lot of elements in that party has a clear and principled position of Palestine.

My general view on the latter issue, as a non-Zionist Jew, is that literally any non-Zionist criticism of Israel will get smeared as anti-Semitic no matter what, so the non-Zionist left can and should police itself for actual anti-Semitism without worrying too much about optics (i.e. people claiming that "from the river to the sea" is a call for genocide rather than for a binational state).

But maybe that's naive of me, I dunno.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
My general view on the latter issue, as a non-Zionist Jew, is that literally any non-Zionist criticism of Israel will get smeared as anti-Semitic no matter what, so the non-Zionist left can and should police itself for actual anti-Semitism without worrying too much about optics (i.e. people claiming that "from the river to the sea" is a call for genocide rather than for a binational state).
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Not to derail too much, but while I don't think its a call for genocide it also doesn't seem like a call for a binational state?
 

Bronx-Man

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,351
Other than it strangely fetishizes people of color and the queer community?
There's a big fuckin' difference between fetishizing and making sure our movement doesn't lose sight of people that need this the most.

I don't think it's necessarily fetishizing POC, though that is something to be wary of. More that learning from female, POC, and queer leftists is a good way to keep in check any blind spots on those issues that leftists who don't fall into all (or any) of those categories may have.
Bingo.
 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
I gauge my trust on Socialist organizations by their behavior. The makeup of their ranks is utterly meaningless.
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
I gauge my trust on Socialist organizations by their behavior. The makeup of their ranks is utterly meaningless.

Right, but a more diverse organization has a greater likelihood of focusing on issues affecting the working class from an intersectional perspective. There's less of a chance of becoming myopic when a multitude of views and life experiences can be drawn upon.
 

Shy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,520
There's a big fuckin' difference between fetishizing and making sure our movement doesn't lose sight of people that need this the most.
Exactly.

It's very depressing that people would think of the former first, before the latter.
I gauge my trust on Socialist organizations by their behavior. The makeup of their ranks is utterly meaningless.
It's not meaningless, for the reason Sphagnum stated above.
 

Lafiel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
311
Melbourne, Australia
I gauge my trust on Socialist organizations by their behavior. The makeup of their ranks is utterly meaningless.
Few things because I agree with this on a certain level.

1) Most socialist organisations are so small that their lack of diversity is explained more by that then any other factor.
2) For socialist organisations that are significantly larger than most I think credit should be given to organisations that have diverse leaderships and diversity in their ranks because it indicates that they are doing something "right' in drawing in and mobilising different layers of the community around them.
3) How a socialist organisation engages with migrant communities and works with them is a important thing to consider for example my party has strong links to the kurdish, malaysian, sudanese and tamil communities and we can frequently draw on their support for our annual fundraisers and election campaigns while also receiving special invitations to their own events, we also have some good links with certain layers of the palestine, pakistan and aboriginal communities which are always important to strengthen and maintain contact. International connections with other parties overseas are also good things to maintain

On the other hand I'm instantly suspicious of any so-called left organisation that makes it a point of elevating the representation of their ranks whilst attacking others for being "white' based on their lack of representation. To me most of that comes off as sectarianism more than anything else.