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Oct 27, 2017
488
This continues to still be a pervasive problem. It's also part of the reason why the "it's just games, stop being so serious!" line of bullshit persists. Games will never be taken seriously if the people who participate in them can't see them seriously. But even more than that, if what is created and sold to mass audiences can't even make it past the, frankly, low bar of simply being somewhere above juvenile, no audiences outside of people who love and play games will analyze them either. And without that community, a community interested in games for their merits beyond being "just games", games will continue to remain a media that might best be described as infantile.

Video games need vocabulary that they simply do not have yet, and right now most of what it uses is stolen from film, because it has not yet developed a language that allows more creators to break out of filmic confines. A large part of that is because the people who might otherwise see video games as a burgeoning medium instead see it as either unapproachable or not worth the investment required to scrape past all of the sludge video games currently carry with them. Thus, we do not get a better, more developed way of talking about games, or if we do the terms themselves are generic and not unique to games (flow is one of the most often thrown around).

Ludonarrative dissonance is a usable, recognizable term, but also not nearly as penetrable as something like auteur theory, and much more difficult to integrate, whereas the concept of the auteur drew people to it. In spite of the increased use of ludonarrative dissonance, games have not become more aware of the disconnect between the narrative promoted by the play and the narrative promoted outside of it. The narrative outside of play remains filmic in nature, while the narrative of play remains completely separate. And it's difficult to get these sorts of things to change if we still aren't at the level where a larger community of individuals are willing to take and discuss video games and play as being artistic. To do that, we need to be willing to a) be conscious of the sludge in games and b) willing to accept responsibility for how that promotes the media to the larger world.

But maybe that is the issue. Maybe the people who come in and shout about it really do just want them to be toys, enjoying them as eternal 15 year-olds. Even so, it's already clear that many want video games to be something else, something more; and once people see those possibilities and start to moving towards them... well, you can't put the genie back in the bottle. People simply have to learn that it's not just a medium for them anymore. All that anger and vitriol is simply fear of not being catered to, but no media, if it wants to continue to be relevant, can survive like that. It's a self-destructive tendency, where the fan squeezes the work they love into irrelevancy because they refuse to see its flaws or have an open discussion about it.
You have an interesting point about games not having the critical or creative vocabulary that they need yet, and it almost feels like we're in a chicken-egg loop here. Can't elevate discussion above the juvenile without the proper vocabulary of critique or language of game design being somewhat more coalesced than it is just yet, but you can't easily develop that terminology unless there're enough people willing to have discourse about the medium as more than a child's toy. I feel like we're getting there, but I also fear that I may not live long enough to see games widely discussed in an academic capacity.

On the more juvenile front, I know how much you love zettai ryouiki, Morrigan , so I thought you might get a kick out of something I saw the Xenoblade 2 OT that's probably going to make some dudes a little more uncomfortable than they already were within the next week or two.
a18849ef80f72e23944cc655e0409769.png

Can't write it off as a wetsuit when he's wearing armor now. Heck, I think the shorts got shorter. :^) Zettai ryouiki thighboot armor is leaking across the sex divide!
I genuinely think that they aim pretty low a lot of the time and there's no reason to hold them to such low standards
They really, really do. I do wonder how much of it is conscious marketing decisions and how much is a recursive loop of otaku artists pandering to themselves after coming up on art from otaku artists. Perhaps we'll never know.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
You have an interesting point about games not having the critical or creative vocabulary that they need yet, and it almost feels like we're in a chicken-egg loop here. Can't elevate discussion above the juvenile without the proper vocabulary of critique or language of game design being somewhat more coalesced than it is just yet, but you can't easily develop that terminology unless there're enough people willing to have discourse about the medium as more than a child's toy. I feel like we're getting there, but I also fear that I may not live long enough to see games widely discussed in an academic capacity.
Well, I agree - I do think that there is more discussion about it, but it has been an uphill battle every step of the way. I think that once it starts to get more traction though, we will see a larger counter-culture emerge. One deeply concerned with the language of interaction, with how the visuals present characters, with what audio cues might present about the setting. One where women can finally provide both critique and creation and at least be respected by their peers, if not wider audiences. But, that will probably come at a cost - either a revolution or a collapse - where the games market either gets fed up with catering to otaku subcultures or simply implodes due to the extremely small market they're targeting. The only other possibility is just the extremely slow burn we're currently seeing, which I see as being unsustainable within the next decade (i.e., simply too many games, too many game developers, too much competition to sustain consistently marketing towards the niche). Anime companies are already bleeding money due to the extraordinary amount of competition, and it's fairly likely that will happen to game companies too if they continue to only market their games towards highly specific subcultures (it also necessitates a re-brand of games as a whole as not simply being for that subculture). Also worth noting that a big reason we're seeing so much more of this now is a result of an industry collapse that occurred in the late 90s. Hopefully it's not an indicator of a longer-term problem with games as a culture industry, where only a cyclical crash can right the larger cultural problems it now faces.
 
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Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,419
The English Wilderness
You have an interesting point about games not having the critical or creative vocabulary that they need yet, and it almost feels like we're in a chicken-egg loop here. Can't elevate discussion above the juvenile without the proper vocabulary of critique or language of game design being somewhat more coalesced than it is just yet, but you can't easily develop that terminology unless there're enough people willing to have discourse about the medium as more than a child's toy. I feel like we're getting there, but I also fear that I may not live long enough to see games widely discussed in an academic capacity.

This is one of my issues with the whole "trope talk": effectively, it's all pseudo-intellectual jargon with no depth. As expected, XC2 has brought out the tired old phrase "standard anime tropes". That's like...like pointing at a painting and saying "it's got colours in it". There's no discussion of context or subtext, the construction, contrast or complimary nature of the themes, motifs and archetypes involved, no depth of analysis to speak of - just "the standard tropes".

(And, if they're that standard, why not call them clichés like anyone with even a basic grasp of literary critique would?)

Instead, they hide behind buzzwords and jargon and the illusion of critique - and react badly when challenged to look beyond it.
 

kaytee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
440
USA
How did this thread become my safe space lol

This is one of my issues with the whole "trope talk": effectively, it's all pseudo-intellectual jargon with no depth. As expected, XC2 has brought out the tired old phrase "standard anime tropes". That's like...like pointing at a painting and saying "it's got colours in it". There's no discussion of context or subtext, the construction, contrast or complimary nature of the themes, motifs and archetypes involved, no depth of analysis to speak of - just "the standard tropes".

(And, if they're that standard, why not call them clichés like anyone with even a basic grasp of literary critique would?)

Instead, they hide behind buzzwords and jargon and the illusion of critique - and react badly when challenged to look beyond it.

I hate this!! (I saw you post about it before and I didn't say anything then but I thought it!) It's so... vacuous. Like, yes, you've identified a trope, congratulations. 98% of "analysis" YouTube videos are just this. Ugh, I hate it. I want to make everyone read a 101 film or literature blog.
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,556
That other thread is an example of why I tend to be so abrasive in discussions like this one. No matter how well thought out your post is people will just write it off, even if there isn't a hint of hostility in it. Why bother trying to be nice when it does nothing?
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,907
That other thread is an example of why I tend to be so abrasive in discussions like this one. No matter how well thought out your post is people will just write it off, even if there isn't a hint of hostility in it. Why bother trying to be nice when it does nothing?
I guess the answer to this is that for someone with a more reasonable disposition who might be lurking, a hostile attitude would be less likely to convince them.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
I have been consistently and frequently impressed by the patience a lot of people in this thread have shown.

I'm not a patient person. I don't know how you folks do this without losing your cool more often.

Then again, losing your cool would just be used as ammo against you. I know it usually is against me.
 

kaytee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
440
USA
Then again, losing your cool would just be used as ammo against you. I know it usually is against me.

This is literally the only reason for me. Sometimes I'll write a whole post that's maybe a little snippy or just very feminist and then delete without posting, because I don't want to deal with the fallout. People calling me emotional or hysterical also really sets me off, so I'm wary of getting in situations where that'll happen.
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,907
I learned my lesson recently thanks to getting into a spat with Colin Moriarty on twitter. I gave him shit and I still believe everything I said to him, but the manner in which I said it enabled him to easily take the high ground which is something I regret.

Calm, reasoned arguments in the face of stupidity/ignorance/belligerence is tough, but ultimately worthwhile. Don't want this to sound preachy, it's something I'm struggling to maintain myself. Especially lately.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,419
The English Wilderness
How did this thread become my safe space lol

I hate this!! (I saw you post about it before and I didn't say anything then but I thought it!) It's so... vacuous. Like, yes, you've identified a trope, congratulations. 98% of "analysis" YouTube videos are just this. Ugh, I hate it. I want to make everyone read a 101 film or literature blog.

During my uni days, I once dressed as a pirate to read a parchment-written essay about the evolution of trickster archetypes across the ages - suffice to say, current trends in "literary analysis" do my head in XD

That other thread is an example of why I tend to be so abrasive in discussions like this one. No matter how well thought out your post is people will just write it off, even if there isn't a hint of hostility in it. Why bother trying to be nice when it does nothing?

I guess the answer to this is that for someone with a more reasonable disposition who might be lurking, a hostile attitude would be less likely to convince them.

Yup. In the end, we're not going to convince many of those who come in to troll or derail these threads, or regurgitate the same old arguments, but the thread will, hopefully, have an affect on those who are lurking. The more people who feel comfortable stepping forward to say "this shit affects me and here's how" the better. There's already been examples, both with men coming to realise what the problem is, and women finding solidarity in their shared experiences and frustrations.
 

GraphicViolets

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
985
I guess the answer to this is that for someone with a more reasonable disposition who might be lurking, a hostile attitude would be less likely to convince them.
On the flip side to that I think pursuing your argument with passion can make lurkers recognize that its important to you and for people who aren't willing to speak up but agree with you it can make them feel they have a voice
(that said I'm usually not very confrontational)
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
Yeah... Yeah.

I lost my cool a little bit in that new thread pre-temporary-lock, and fortunately people just ignored it.

Man, so many people in that thread were here once, and then in that other one, and now they've found a new outlet for their... "righteous" fury against the anti-gamer cabal. Must be nice to have the time to post constantly about things you claim to not care about. Must be easy to not give a shit about anyone but yourself.

I will say, though, that regarding driving people away with hostility... It was the constant hostility (elsewhere, not here) that eventually pushed me to more thoroughly considering how other people were feeling, and what it meant for me to dismiss their feelings. A constant wave of "sorry not sorry you're wrong" is how I changed.

That obviously doesn't work on everyone. ):

"Hostility" there should really be in quotes, because it never was truly hostile. Just, firm. Insistent.
 

kaytee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
440
USA
I learned my lesson recently thanks to getting into a spat with Colin Moriarty on twitter. I gave him shit and I still believe everything I said to him, but the manner in which I said it enabled him to easily take the high ground which is something I regret.

Calm, reasoned arguments in the face of stupidity/ignorance/belligerence is tough, but ultimately worthwhile. Don't want this to sound preachy, it's something I'm struggling to maintain myself. Especially lately.

Don't worry, I'm sure he would've found a way. :P But I agree that it's worthwhile. Sometimes I just have to repeat to myself that it's more effective politics than just going off on people and there's a wider movement out there I'm trying to serve.

During my uni days, I once dressed as a pirate to read a parchment-written essay about the evolution of trickster archetypes across the ages - suffice to say, current trends in "literary analysis" do my head in XD

Haha I love it!

On the flip side to that I think pursuing your argument with passion can make lurkers recognize that its important to you and for people who aren't willing to speak up but agree with you it can make them feel they have a voice
(that said I'm usually not very confrontational)

For people who argue in good faith, I think being met with passion can actually have a big impact. If they thought it didn't matter, suddenly here are all these people who obviously care a lot. And there might even be a reason, so maybe they should check it out... In the past I've had people get mad at me, and even though I didn't change my mind right then it had a big effect on me because I wasn't trying to upset anyone. It made me reevaluate.
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,907
On the flip side to that I think pursuing your argument with passion can make lurkers recognize that its important to you and for people who aren't willing to speak up but agree with you it can make them feel they have a voice
(that said I'm usually not very confrontational)
For sure, but there's a difference between passion and open hostility. Again, I feel somewhat hypocritical given some of my own posts lol but it's something I've come to see more and more.
 

GraphicViolets

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
985
For people who argue in good faith, I think being met with passion can actually have a big impact. If they thought it didn't matter, suddenly here are all these people who obviously care a lot. And there might even be a reason, so maybe they should check it out... In the past I've had people get mad at me, and even though I didn't change my mind right then it had a big effect on me because I wasn't trying to upset anyone. It made me reevaluate.
Yeah same. A lot of race related arguments I've come to understand by seeing how passionate people are. The fact that it bothers them so much makes me want to do better. Coming from a super white rural community, I had a lot to learn.
For sure, but there's a difference between passion and open hostility. Again, I feel somewhat hypocritical given some of my own posts lol but it's something I've come to see more and more.
Definitely subjective in the difference between that. Personal attacks obviously cross the line but what specific language beyond that is hard to say otherwise.
My problem when I get angry is that I have trouble being particularly clear. I usually just step away because of it but I wan to do better
 

Opa-Pa

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,810
I kept going back and forth about posting in this thread for a while now, but always thought that my wall of text will probably get ignored and overlooked by trolls anyways. I realized though that there are many people that keep coming back here and really read all the posts, so I guess I will post my little story after all.
A little bit of an introduction, I am a 21-year old male from Germany now and have been saying I want to one day make games since I was in Kindergarten. I thought my chances of breaking into the industry were highest if I went to a uni in Japan, applied for it and was all set to go live halfway across the globe. As part of my preparation I participated in a "language exchange", and luckily directly fell in love with one of my study partners in Japan.
And now to get more ontopic:
When I was in highschool I would also drool over sexualized character designs, like so many other boys my age, it was completely normal to me. It didn't help that my mom was always in a very high position in her work, so I never felt that women would be at a disadvantage in any way, I mean my mom made a huge career with a not so great school degree. My now fiancée and living a while in Japan with her has completely opened my eyes, though. I have heard crazy horror stories from her, was with her when she herself got sexually harassed at work and simply saw the effects of obectification of women on a woman's psyche. It made me open my eyes and realize that there are just so so many small things which all come together to create this large picture of sexualization and objectification, from things like "Chikan" which happens way too frequently in Japan to things like my SO being told on her first day at her new office that she should "keep her distance from the vice president as he is known to like women a bit too much", yet no one spoke up. I thought they didn't speak up because they were weak when I was young, but in that moment I realized that they didn't speak up out of so many reasons, for my SO it was fear for example. You have this person in a position of power forcing himself onto women with the chance that when they do speak up he would simply fire them. This might sound "anti-japan" now, but the fact is that that last example actually happened when she had to move to the US for her job and that was how she was greeted at the new office halfway across the globe from home.
Anyways, I'm getting offtopic and I guess I just wanted to share that, but seeing my fiancée suffer so badly due to this subconscious behavior men often have towards women was bad, like really really bad. It made me hate teenage me especially looking at those trashy games I bought and played when I was younger. And even though she was not a big gamer when I met her, my passion for games made her fall in love with them, too. And in my honest opinion it can't be that she sees a female character design in a big game and in her words feels "uncomfortable" seeing it. My personal biggest issue with these designs is that they are an incredibly easy to see symptom of this big issue that our society has, and yet so many people ignore it, or they even say "I love boobs in my games", not seeing that this might not be the root of the way many men treat women, but a symptom, one we can actually fix and get rid of if we were vocal enough. I am incredibly grateful for the many things she made me learn and understand in these past 3.5 years, and I truly hope that at one point more people realize just how deep this issue is, and to be able to one day fix the root of this we have to start with something, and rejecting designs like this would be a great first step to also increase inclusion in our hobby. Being able to share my hobby with my SO is one of the greatest pleasures in life, and I really hope that at one point no character design will make her uncomfortable anymore.
Anyways, that's my story. Anyone that made it through the end, thank you for reading, and let's all work together to make that hope come true.
Thanks a bunch for sharing this, posts like this are extremely valuable and I imagine are capable of flipping a switch on people who otherwise don't give a damn about the subject.

Personally, while I cared about these issues before meeting my fiance, getting to know her and enjoying games together (she liked them before but wasn't all that much into them) has given me a bigger motivation to discuss these topics and try to do, well, something, ANYTHING. Ideally we men shouldn't need to have women as close friends, sisters, girlfriends etc to care about how our hobby affects them, but it can obviously lead starting to care about it more and I think a lot of men who don't care about representation of women in games could do a little instrospection and think about it, if you were to have a daugther, would you really be 100% happy with her growing up to like games as they are now? If you're into japanese games, would you feel comfortable showing her these games when she asked you if you know any with prominent women in them? I certainly wouldn't.

I have many women dear to me who happen to enjoy video games, but especially my fiance and sister, and seeing them disappointed in the state of the medium, hearing how they have to deal with unpleasant comments online, etc is extremely frustrating and I want to do anything in my hands to make even a little change. And if that's limited to discussing on a message board and convincing a single person that video games have a problem with the treatment and representation of women then that's great.

For sure, but there's a difference between passion and open hostility. Again, I feel somewhat hypocritical given some of my own posts lol but it's something I've come to see more and more.
I think if anything, it's we men who should try extra hard to keep our cool when discussing these things since we're not directly affected by these things, and I say this as someone who very easily resorts to snarky replies due to frustration. There's also the fact that, sadly, we tend to have a louder voice than women in some contexts... The reality is that a lot of men will dismiss whatever women say as just them "being whiny", but if they see their peers agreeing with women they start questioning themselves and considering these issues as real, I know because I've seen it happen with friends and co-workers.

Although to be frank, I suspect some people who claim they'd be more receptive "if we weren't so aggresive about our opinions" aren't being completely honest. I mean you'll notice that we can go pages and pages of civil discussion and as soon as we react poorly at some evident trolling, someone complains that we aren't welcoming and all that... I mean we should strive to be civil and reasonable either way because it'll always be the best course of action, but yeah.
 

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,608
Since the conversation has swung this way, I'll crosspost this.

I've been pondering over a point that I saw in an unrelated topic. That of "taking care to phrase the message perfectly".

A number of people in this thread have also suggested that the message hasn't been framed perfectly, and that it pushes away potential allies.

Let's talk about that.

The message in the OP, and the one that made me start this line of thought, both have something in common. They rely on a perception of fairness, that equity/equality are inherently good things to strive for. I believe it's fair to call it a "principle".

A principle is something that one believes in because one feels it to be inherently correct, whether it's a moral or ethical or legal question, or none of those words apply.
People who come in and suggest that they WOULD be on board with a principle, if it were only stated in a non-alienating manner, are in fact not feeling a principle. Because principles are still inherently correct to those who believe in them, even if poorly stated, or if someone else in a group dedicated to a principle says something unkind.

Therefore, anyone using imperfect communication as an excuse to not join a "cause", as it were, never adhered to the principle related to said cause. They may have been looking for a group to belong to, or for some human interaction, but they didn't support a principle.
My end conclusion is, that's a bad argument.
 
Oct 27, 2017
488
This is one of my issues with the whole "trope talk": effectively, it's all pseudo-intellectual jargon with no depth. As expected, XC2 has brought out the tired old phrase "standard anime tropes". That's like...like pointing at a painting and saying "it's got colours in it". There's no discussion of context or subtext, the construction, contrast or complimary nature of the themes, motifs and archetypes involved, no depth of analysis to speak of - just "the standard tropes".

(And, if they're that standard, why not call them clichés like anyone with even a basic grasp of literary critique would?)

Instead, they hide behind buzzwords and jargon and the illusion of critique - and react badly when challenged to look beyond it.
As much as tvtropes is a fascinating website, I honestly think it probably did some significant harm to growth of discourse in becoming so prolific. "Tropes aren't bad" may be the refrain, but once you provide the layperson enough categorized information to superficially recognize the building blocks of a narrative, I think it might actually discourage them from looking deeper at how stories are constructed. As if the recognition of tropes is the lowest you can dig here and once you know that a story is making use of a lot of the ones that its genre contemporaries do, it's rote, generic and you're done analyzing.

For people who argue in good faith, I think being met with passion can actually have a big impact. If they thought it didn't matter, suddenly here are all these people who obviously care a lot. And there might even be a reason, so maybe they should check it out... In the past I've had people get mad at me, and even though I didn't change my mind right then it had a big effect on me because I wasn't trying to upset anyone. It made me reevaluate.
Yeah, this is extremely true. I try to to bend over backwards to be friendly and open and make concessions wherever I can if I think those concessions can actually be made, but it ultimately feels I've likely "flipped" as many people once I finally snapped and got more overtly passionate as I have through slow, quiet discourse where I remain level-headed the entire time. There was a point during Gamergate where Abstrusity and I were basically text-shouting at each other on an hourly basis, but I wouldn't let it go or agree to disagree and it eventually broke through to her what was actually going on. Some moments of that were very much unproductive, but I'd like to think that the fact that it got so heated was part of what ultimately got through to her. And now she's here, instead of there. Which is much better, as far as I'm concerned, because she can provide a really good look into what was actually going on then from the other side, and it's become depressingly relevant to current events again.

I mean you'll notice that we can go pages and pages of civil discussion and as soon as we react poorly at some evident trolling, someone complains that we aren't welcoming and all that... I mean we should strive to be civil and reasonable either way because it'll always be the best course of action, but yeah.
While you have a point here, I do like to try to think of it from the perspective that this thread is ungodly long and every so often someone just happens to drop in at the wrong time. A lot of this is a really good read but we're kind of past the point where you can reasonably expect anyone to read the entire thread before jumping in. It's more like a running OT than a standalone discussion thread at this point. I mean, as noted just above I can be a bit of a Pollyanna and sometimes about break my back trying to be forgiving to the point where I probably delude myself, granted.

A principle is something that one believes in because one feels it to be inherently correct, whether it's a moral or ethical or legal question, or none of those words apply.
People who come in and suggest that they WOULD be on board with a principle, if it were only stated in a non-alienating manner, are in fact not feeling a principle. Because principles are still inherently correct to those who believe in them, even if poorly stated, or if someone else in a group dedicated to a principle says something unkind.

Therefore, anyone using imperfect communication as an excuse to not join a "cause", as it were, never adhered to the principle related to said cause. They may have been looking for a group to belong to, or for some human interaction, but they didn't support a principle.
My end conclusion is, that's a bad argument.
This is absolutely true. The assertion of "I would support you, but you're being mean, so I don't" fully indicates that there's no actual desire to support there. It's an inherently disingenuous argument and I'd frankly just as soon write it off as I do overt trolling.

I do think there's a distinction between people saying that and people who are open that they don't inherently support our assertions in full but are willing to discuss in good faith and try to learn where we're coming from, and I do think that when things devolve into blanket statements about creeps and the like we might potentially lose some people in THAT position. "It's okay to like problematic things," on its own can be a really long learning process to actually internalize.

To use what I expect is probably a pretty common scenario as these things go based on years of being real into The Anime, if someone already has a voice in the back of their head constantly telling them they're a creep because they like anime boobs, I don't necessarily think that it's unfair that they react pretty negatively to what they might interpret as blanket attacks on everyone who likes anime boobs (that I'd imagine more or less 100% of the time aren't intended to be aimed at everyone who likes anime boobs).

Speaking of anime, I'm about to dive head first into Xenoblade 2 in like ten minutes so it might be a while before I come back up for air to respond to anything. I expect I'll have a lot of interesting things to say about this one from a lot of different angles by the time I'm done with it, heh.
 
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Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,907
Definitely subjective in the difference between that. Personal attacks obviously cross the line but what specific language beyond that is hard to say otherwise.
My problem when I get angry is that I have trouble being particularly clear. I usually just step away because of it but I wan to do better

I think if anything, it's we men who should try extra hard to keep our cool when discussing these things since we're not directly affected by these things, and I say this as someone who very easily resorts to snarky replies due to frustration. There's also the fact that, sadly, we tend to have a louder voice than women in some contexts... The reality is that a lot of men will dismiss whatever women say as just them "being whiny", but if they see their peers agreeing with women they start questioning themselves and considering these issues as real, I know because I've seen it happen with friends and co-workers.

Although to be frank, I suspect some people who claim they'd be more receptive "if we weren't so aggresive about our opinions" aren't being completely honest. I mean you'll notice that we can go pages and pages of civil discussion and as soon as we react poorly at some evident trolling, someone complains that we aren't welcoming and all that... I mean we should strive to be civil and reasonable either way because it'll always be the best course of action, but yeah.

All fair points well made.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
I do think there's a distinction between people saying that and people who are open that they don't inherently support our assertions in full but are willing to discuss in good faith and try to learn where we're coming from, and I do think that when things devolve into blanket statements about creeps and the like we might potentially lose some people in THAT position. "It's okay to like problematic things," on its own can be a really long learning process to actually internalize.

To use what I expect is probably a pretty common scenario as these things go based on years of being real into The Anime, if someone already has a voice in the back of their head constantly telling them they're a creep because they like anime boobs, I don't necessarily think that it's unfair that they react pretty negatively to what they might interpret as blanket attacks on everyone who likes anime boobs (that I'd imagine more or less 100% of the time aren't intended to be aimed at everyone who likes anime boobs).
Yeah, I think it takes a long time to be willing to say, both, I like this, but it's got a lot of problems too. And it often takes even longer to be able to articulate what specifically about the thing they like is problematic. It's easy to put on blinders for something you enjoyed. It certainly happens to me a lot whenever I start thinking about my favorite games.

Speaking of anime, I'm about to dive head first into Xenoblade 2 in like ten minutes so it might be a while before I come back up for air to respond to anything. I expect I'll have a lot of interesting things to say about this one from a lot of different angles by the time I'm done with it, heh.
Have fun!
 

Fless

Member
Oct 29, 2017
124
I think a lot of the trouble with writing in games is that developers don't actually hire competent writers. Its one of those things a lot of people think is easier than it actually is, and so you end up with all this shitty, generic "lore" with no real nuance or subtext to it, wide as an ocean, deep as a puddle.

Also, with regards the checkboxes, there's this modern obsession with "tropes" that just does my head in. It's a very...technical approach to writing, as if stories are a machine you can disassemble and reassemble in a slightly different form.

Stories should come from the heart, the soul. They're not machines.

/rant



Even if they hire good writers, they often already developed 80 % of the game - or, maybe worse, changed basic blocks ten times during development - and expect the writer to only connect the dots and levels somehow, to make up a diegetic reason (cheaply please!) why Hiro Protagonist was in the desert in one moment and is now on a snow covered mountain. Oh, and to give some diegetic reason why Asida Eyecandica wears only a bikini on said mountain. But the writer often has no input about basic things like that the hero maybe should be Hiroa Protagonista and the sidekick should wear sensible clothes when it's freezing up there.
Rhianna Pratchett talks a bit about the difficulties writing for games. It's a pretty hard job even if you have the best of circumstances.

Completely agree with you about the "tropes" obsession, both by the recipients of the media and the makers.
 
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Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
So, after around 3 hours of Xenoblade Chronicles 2, I can safely say that yes, the cheesecake of Pyra and the limited clothes the women seem to be wearing in general is a pretty big distraction from my enjoyment of the game. Which is a shame because everything else about the game is awesome.
 
Oct 27, 2017
488
So, after around 3 hours of Xenoblade Chronicles 2, I can safely say that yes, the cheesecake of Pyra and the limited clothes the women seem to be wearing in general is a pretty big distraction from my enjoyment of the game. Which is a shame because everything else about the game is awesome.
The scene where one of Bana's stereotypical-villain-minion-dancer-girl attendants walked through the doors of his office as the camera stayed stationary to focus on her midriff and then crotch made me actually say "Guys, what the fuck?" out loud, but all told I've actually been pleasantly surprised that the camerawork remains on level with a marginally iffy shonen anime instead of going full voyeur so far. The cutscene fights are absurdly well directed for video game fights, and Pyra's a hell of a lot less of a waif than I was expecting. I might even favor the word "badass" even if she definitely has some Pensive Anime Girl Puts Hand on Chest and Looks Off in the Distance moments. Go figure.

Granted, I think I'm probably subconsciously giving some stuff I might've otherwise noticed a pass because goddammit the 8-4 Play impressions were right, as was Jeremy Parish. It's like a PS2-era JRPG that we got in a time capsule--and in spirit feels a hell of a lot like the first Grandia mixed with Skies of Arcadia. If this didn't have the contentious character design issues (mostly with the rare blades, knowing now that the majority of the female playable cast is actually fully clothed or at least kinda anime-classy about the skin they're showing) I'd be shouting from the rooftops about it already.
 
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Chaparral

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
787
Canada
Sometimes I'm glad that I mostly play racing games and really don't like most JRPG's that aren't Persona. Ha.

I'm also glad a harmless rabbit brought up the topic of tropes and by extension, TVTropes complicity in it. I've been guilty of using that 'anime tropes' catch all. As much as I love spending late nights seeing how deep the TVTropes rabbit hole goes for my favorite games, it cannot be stated how it has given people yet another weapon to use lazily without much thought or explanation.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,251

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,907
Haven't come across Pyra yet but yeah Banna's companions were pretty blatant. Also Nia is awesome, both in visual design and characterisation, shame they went down that route with Pyra and the rare blades when they've shown they can do good female designs.
 

kaytee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
440
USA
I'm really peeved by the goalpost moving of "oh, it's just in Japanese games then?" (It's not, and there are more problems than just character design but MOVING ON) I don't know if it's regular old Western superiority/exceptionalism or mild xenophobia. A combo. Whatever it is, it grinds my gears. Japan makes up a big chunk of the industry. Sony and Nintendo are both Japanese companies... C'mon now. Japanese games count. And then it turns into "Japanese people are just pervs, what can you do?" No. They're not. Stop.

I also think some people who want the complaining to stop aren't going to be happy when they find out I'm not ready to quit with just women. There's a whoooole lot more room to grow.

(As for Xenoblade 2 -- how long are normal encounters lasting? Enemies looked kind of spongey to me, and it's about 50% of the reason I decided to pass on the game.)
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
I'm really peeved by the goalpost moving of "oh, it's just in Japanese games then?" (It's not, and there are more problems than just character design but MOVING ON) I don't know if it's regular old Western superiority/exceptionalism or mild xenophobia. A combo. Whatever it is, it grinds my gears. Japan makes up a big chunk of the industry. Sony and Nintendo are both Japanese companies... C'mon now. Japanese games count. And then it turns into "Japanese people are just pervs, what can you do?" No. They're not. Stop.

I think there's definitely a lot of what you said, and also exoticism. We, Western society, imagine the east to be so many things it's not. It's this mysterious entity. In Japan's case, it's this "nerd mecca". It's this fantastical land where they have penis festivals, who does that, that's so pervy and weird and funny.

It drives me up the wall when people act like it's a Japan only thing. As I and others (shout out to a harmless rabbit!) have said, it's not like Japan is just unilaterally bad at women. They have their own unique problems, and even their own unique strengths. They are in a lot of ways further behind in social progressive movements than the West (some of the West, anyway), but also probably ahead in ways we don't really know if we're not from there. (I'm out of my depth on this in particular, so I'll stop at that.)

I did live there, for half a year, and know for a fact that not every street is paved with loli girls being worshiped by the entire country. But you'd think that's the case from the way some people talk. I'd also love to go back, maybe live there long-term, and it's not because of the nerd shit. There's so much more to Japan than video games and anime, but because people tend to be so insular and love to imagine and generalize, they don't know.
I also think some people who want the complaining to stop aren't going to be happy when they find out I'm not ready to quit with just women. There's a whoooole lot more room to grow.

lmao ain't that the truth

PS, I don't know how to tag people, how do you tag people. >_>
 

kaytee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
440
USA
I did live there, for half a year, and know for a fact that not every street is paved with loli girls being worshiped by the entire country.

Are you sure??? But yes, definitely, there's so much generalizing of the weirdest parts of anime or that one weird article they read about Japan to an entire country of people. So frustrating.

PS, I don't know how to tag people, how do you tag people. >_>
I don't know and I've been trying to find out T_T

As long as I'm complaining... I've also noticed a few men say things like "I imagine in women's media, men are also objectified/idealized."

And I'm always kind of like... so you imagine it because you haven't actually engaged with any of that media and can't point out examples, right? Notice how easy it is to escape what is treated as a tiny niche so you never have to engage with media you aren't interested in? Because women don't have that luxury.

Not to mention I think it could be healthy to occasionally watch/read/listen to something that's ~for girls~. Maybe get a different perspective. See the world a little differently.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
I see some people going there and just staying in Tokyo, and I guess they just don't go out of Akihabara, so they may never experience anything else from Japan other than their nerd culture.

I traveled there for a month, but went to a lot of places and yeah, the nerdy stuff was only at Akihabara and maybe parts of Shibuya, rest of Tokyo, Osaka, Nara, Yokohama... it's pretty much regular stuff. Even went to clubs at night and it was the same music as here, for giving an example.

I also met some japanese people and everyone told me anime was for nerds. But of course that's just personal anecdote.

Trains being segregated at rush hours was still sad to see.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,008
Canada
Really don't like the argument of listing the top selling games. Fifa, CS:GO, Call of Duty, Battlefield, might not be that much of a problem, but citing the most popular titles seems fallacious. Those are important games, but gaming culture is much bigger than just the competitive, sports or Nintendo titles.

It feels like another way of telling people to just play other games. It neglects people who prefer specific genres like JRPG or fighting games. It doesn't represent games that are of the highest quality or are up for awards. It does nothing to dispute the minefield argument.

Also to tag people, type @username
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
Fun fact I once accidentally got onto the women's car on a train and it was the most awkward situation I think I've ever been in. By the time I realized all these women were warily not-quite-staring at me, the train was already moving. When we reached the next stop, I got out (was fortunately right next to the door) and rushed over to a much much emptier car. I rarely experienced the packed-like-sardine stereotype, but that was one of the few times I did.

Ahhh it was the worst!!!

But yeah, it's definitely sad to think that it still needs to exist. ):

EDIT: Oh, haha, @ seems... like I should've realized that... But man it sure is slow to catch up to your typing, and if you type too much of the username, it gives up. D:
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,427
Canada
Haven't come across Pyra yet but yeah Banna's companions were pretty blatant. Also Nia is awesome, both in visual design and characterisation, shame they went down that route with Pyra and the rare blades when they've shown they can do good female designs.

I'm...kinda happy so far (only kinda because we know a number of the Rare Blade's are still obnoxiously dressed), silly deign aside I haven't seen too many instances of blatant ass and breast shots (they had a lot of chances when Pyra and Rex make their pact together --- but they focused pretty solely on the green stone on her chest than the rest of it).
 
Oct 27, 2017
488
Nodding my head to the posts, but only dropping in to contribute a half off topic answer. Oops.
(As for Xenoblade 2 -- how long are normal encounters lasting? Enemies looked kind of spongey to me, and it's about 50% of the reason I decided to pass on the game.)
This is one of those super technical mechanics-heavy JRPGs where it expects you to make use of subsystems, actually upgrade character gear, use the right elements, do combos, etc. My impression so far is that MOST enemies are actually fine if you're making use of the tools you have and not just autoattacking and occasionally trying to backstab the front of an enemy (this was the majority of play in most footage I saw). The fights feel fine to me so far.

Also a shoutout to the fact that they're putting so much work into the relationships and interplay between the blades and drivers mechanically, narratively, and in the choreography of cutscene fights Bonus points because Pyra's reading more like a big sister than a Magical Sword Girlfriend so far, between being nearly a full head taller than Rex and far more emotionally mature and knowledgeable about the world (at least in the Adult sense, not the awareness of the scope of contemporary politics of an era 500 years after she was last awake sense). I was expecting none of this, lol.. Who would've thought that the guy who spent the most prominent subplot of an entire trilogy of games discussing human rights for androids might want to do some interesting, nuanced stuff with Magical Girlfriend Who's Also a Sword plot conceits that've become so common lately in anime. Curious whether he'll take it home successfully or not.

I'm...kinda happy so far (only kinda because we know a number of the Rare Blade's are still obnoxiously dressed), silly deign aside I haven't seen too many instances of blatant ass and breast shots (they had a lot of chances when Pyra and Rex make their pact together --- but they focused pretty solely on the green stone on her chest than the rest of it).
It honestly feels to me like they're trying to actively avoid being too blatant about it. You can't hardly have her in frame without bordering on a creepshot, so they've been remarkably restrained with her so far by my estimation, heh.

EDIT: Rex does a lot of shouting about protecting someone who spends all of her time in combat actively defending and covering for his ass and who's better with his own sword than he is when he'll let her use it.
 
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Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
It's cool to hear Xenoblade 2 is managing its characterizations well, despite the designs.

I wish I liked Xenoblade. >_> Loved the world of the first one, was enjoying the story well enough, but I don't enjoy the combat at all, haha. Still, happy to hear the people who were looking forward to it are liking it!
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
On the hostility argument earlier I'd like to say that is one of the reasons I've often been hesitant to say things in threads like this.

See I enjoy a lot of specialized designs,the Sorceress and Amazon from Dragon's Crown to give an example. So when I go into threads which talk about designs and see things like "designed for man children" or "designed by pre-teens" it didn't exactly make me feel great. It made me feel like I'm some terrible person for just enjoying certain things.

Nowadays I understand that women feel quite similar to how I did and that's why they get so passionate about these topics and how people react to them. They feel left out and insulted. So lately I try to put it more into perspective and I agree with what some people say. (Quiet and Cindy are ridiculous and clash with the setting, and even though I like the latter I understand why people want it to be different.)

I think some people have difficulty separating the criticism for the games and criticism for themselves. Hostile language probably makes that worse.

But I also understand how easy it is to get frustrated and how dilibertly obstuse certain people are about these topics. So I get why some people use harsher language.

I wish I had better suggestions for how to help with this but I don't. I will say from personal experience though that I was much more prone to take the less hostile messages to heart.
 

Dusk Golem

Local Horror Enthusiast
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,807
That other thread is an example of why I tend to be so abrasive in discussions like this one. No matter how well thought out your post is people will just write it off, even if there isn't a hint of hostility in it. Why bother trying to be nice when it does nothing?

I guess the answer to this is that for someone with a more reasonable disposition who might be lurking, a hostile attitude would be less likely to convince them.

This is literally the only reason for me. Sometimes I'll write a whole post that's maybe a little snippy or just very feminist and then delete without posting, because I don't want to deal with the fallout. People calling me emotional or hysterical also really sets me off, so I'm wary of getting in situations where that'll happen.

For the record, I don't usually post in this thread or sometimes similar threads as I feel I don't have too much to contribute myself, but I'm interested in learning from others words and viewpoints. So I can attest I'm a lurker, I love people in general and often work to have a better understanding of others, so I value the work a number of people have been putting here to express their feelings, observations, and issues. They are perspectives and sharings that hold value for me for better understanding of people in different situations than I, what is important to care about on their behalf, and topics and issues I may otherwise not personally have but have meaning to others. The deeper you understand another's plight, the more you can contribute to make life better for others is how I view it.
 
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Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
I feel like if you recognize that hostile responses are coming from a good place, you have the capability to get over it, and you should, because you understand their responses are, at the very least, sourced from frustration about a righteous cause - equality and understanding. (Holy moly, that sentence got away from me.) A few innocent well-meaning individuals are going to get struck every now and then, and that sucks. However, it's not the end of the world. If they are well-meaning, they'll bounce back. People are quick to apologize, too, when they realize they've done wrong.

I think some people have difficulty separating the criticism for the games and criticism for themselves.
I also do think this is one of the two biggest hurdles for these discussions. The other being a lot of people just unable or unwilling to take that first step of actually listening.

On the hostility argument earlier I'd like to say that is one of the reasons I've often been hesitant to say things in threads like this.

See I enjoy a lot of specialized designs,the Sorceress and Amazon from Dragon's Crown to give an example. So when I go into threads which talk about designs and see things like "designed for man children" or "designed by pre-teens" it didn't exactly make me feel great. It made me feel like I'm some terrible person for just enjoying certain things.
I believe that you know this already, based on your entire post, but I'll say it anyway for the benefit of someone else who might be watching and frustrated at similar comments. There are countless comments from women in this thread saying there's nothing wrong with liking attractive, sexy women. They just want more variety. And a higher ratio of believable female characters to objectified ones.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
The scene where one of Bana's stereotypical-villain-minion-dancer-girl attendants walked through the doors of his office as the camera stayed stationary to focus on her midriff and then crotch made me actually say "Guys, what the fuck?" out loud, but all told I've actually been pleasantly surprised that the camerawork remains on level with a marginally iffy shonen anime instead of going full voyeur so far. The cutscene fights are absurdly well directed for video game fights, and Pyra's a hell of a lot less of a waif than I was expecting. I might even favor the word "badass" even if she definitely has some Pensive Anime Girl Puts Hand on Chest and Looks Off in the Distance moments. Go figure.

Granted, I think I'm probably subconsciously giving some stuff I might've otherwise noticed a pass because goddammit the 8-4 Play impressions were right, as was Jeremy Parish. It's like a PS2-era JRPG that we got in a time capsule--and in spirit feels a hell of a lot like the first Grandia mixed with Skies of Arcadia. If this didn't have the contentious character design issues (mostly with the rare blades, knowing now that the majority of the female playable cast is actually fully clothed or at least kinda anime-classy about the skin they're showing) I'd be shouting from the rooftops about it already.

Yeah, the gameplay is very much like a classic PS2-JRPG which I really like. But the first "dream scene" with Pyra made it hard for me to take her seriously when her outfit is so naked it tries to show off her buttcrack with her back. Also annoys me that the first image you see when starting Chapter 2 is a very close shot of Pyra's breasts, because even if that wasn't the goal, the model shoves them in your face. Nia's a nice surprise though and Morag looks great like I expected. I'm making liberal use of the capture feature to take pictures for later.

Also. I'm sorry, but there's like a 60% chance that this thread might turn into a harmless rabbit and I discussing Xenoblade Chronicles 2 for a good number of posts, especially in relation to some of the character designs.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,960
Osaka, Osaka
It would be nice to see more men post in here and give some encouragement. .

@women:

I don't have much to add. The best encouragement I can offer, is that many (I would never say most) of us don't like sexualized designs at all.
Even if we're attracted to women, this is not how we would prefer the prominent roles women have in games to be portrayed.
It's also not an indicator of what we want or expect in women, or what we want in our games.
We like y'all how y'all already are.
We like games for other reasons, like you do.
I hope we can do better to make gaming more inclusive, and not some foreign culture that you're allowed to partake in.
I hope we can do better in general.
I know it sucks and you shouldn't have to do it, but continue to help us to help you.


Strictly personally speaking: I'm still embarrassed that I played FFX-2. It was private, but that shit was just weird. Who wanted that?
It's also why I'm hesitant to try Xenoblade 2.
I don't want a game, that if I'm playing in public, signals that those characters are either what I want in games, in women, or even that one should come to expect such things in games. I've become an ambassador for the medium, over the past few years, and weird shit like that shouldn't get in the way of enjoying mechanics.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,419
The English Wilderness
Also. I'm sorry, but there's like a 60% chance that this thread might turn into a harmless rabbit and I discussing Xenoblade Chronicles 2 for a good number of posts, especially in relation to some of the character designs.

I'd join in, but I've not even got to Pyra yet because I decided to spend my time jumping around the outside of the salvaged shipwreck and falling into the sea...

But I do like Nia from what little I've seen on her. The Welsh accent helps: one of my bugbears with modern anime/games is the overuse of familiar voice actors and performances (Squeenix killed moogles for me by giving them Generic Cute Girl Voices and making them actually say kupo...).
 

Opa-Pa

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,810
If you're a lurker and you agree with something or have trouble understanding some points, I think it's cool to come out and just say so. Even a "that's a great post, thank you for sharing, I agree" can help the conversation, especially if said post came from a woman.

In general if you're a man and agree with these things, show your support, because in the eyes of other men who may not agree with any of this that might make the difference.

On the hostility argument earlier I'd like to say that is one of the reasons I've often been hesitant to say things in threads like this.

See I enjoy a lot of specialized designs,the Sorceress and Amazon from Dragon's Crown to give an example. So when I go into threads which talk about designs and see things like "designed for man children" or "designed by pre-teens" it didn't exactly make me feel great. It made me feel like I'm some terrible person for just enjoying certain things.

Nowadays I understand that women feel quite similar to how I did and that's why they get so passionate about these topics and how people react to them. They feel left out and insulted. So lately I try to put it more into perspective and I agree with what some people say. (Quiet and Cindy are ridiculous and clash with the setting, and even though I like the latter I understand why people want it to be different.)

I think some people have difficulty separating the criticism for the games and criticism for themselves. Hostile language probably makes that worse.

But I also understand how easy it is to get frustrated and how dilibertly obstuse certain people are about these topics. So I get why some people use harsher language.

I wish I had better suggestions for how to help with this but I don't. I will say from personal experience though that I was much more prone to take the less hostile messages to heart.
It's appreciated that you give your perspective, I think if more people who don't completely agree with what's presented in the OP were half as eloquent as you, discussion would be far easier.

I think the part about letting criticism get to you and feel like they're personal attacks is very valid, I know because I've been there, but I think it's important to realize that it's a bad trait rooted in how much we treat games as part of our identity. Also, on that matter, I think Twig says something very important:

I feel like if you recognize that hostile responses are coming from a good place, you have the capability to get over it, and you should, because you understand their responses are, at the very least, sourced from frustration about a righteous cause - equality and understanding. (Holy moly, that sentence got away from me.) A few innocent well-meaning individuals are going to get struck every now and then, and that sucks. However, it's not the end of the world. If they are well-meaning, they'll bounce back. People are quick to apologize, too, when they realize they've done wrong..
I think it's vital to remember what we're arguing about in the first place when discussing these things. It's fine to feel attached to these games and their designs, but it's important to note that the other side is arguing in favor of women and their integrity, and I think everyone will agree that those are more important than video games and their fictional characters. The way I see it at least is that the conversation gets very frustrating because when people dismiss our arguments they're not just ignoring our personal opinions, but they're prioritizing their entertaintment over the integrity of their peers, real people with feelings and struggles, and that's simply hard to swallow.

(Apologies if any of this comes off as patronizing or anything similar. I swear that's not my intention)

I'd join in, but I've not even got to Pyra yet because I decided to spend my time jumping around the outside of the salvaged shipwreck and falling into the sea...

But I do like Nia from what little I've seen on her. The Welsh accent helps: one of my bugbears with modern anime/games is the overuse of familiar voice actors and performances (Squeenix killed moogles for me by giving them Generic Cute Girl Voices and making them actually say kupo...).
KEW-POW.

-------
Also, I'm extremely sorry that I'm using the thread for this, and it's fine if someone tells me I should take this elsewhere, haha. But, a harmless rabbit Xaszatm I've seen a lot of people use the PS2 JRPG comparison when talking about Xenoblade 2, even Parish, whose review I enjoyed, so I was wondering... Are these comparison applicable to Xenoblade 1 too or are about elements introduced in the new game? I ADORE X1 and had no trouble getting used to it, but I wanted to know if X2 had new archaicly implemented features or if that was just an easy way to put things into perspective for people new to the series. I'm getting the game in a few hours and want to know what to expect mechanically, haha.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,008
Canada
Question in regards to people promoting sports and competitive games to women as safe genres without sexualisation. I could be really off base with the assertion I make in this post, so definitely tell me if I'm wrong.

Popular sports games usually feature male instead of female athletes, so I'd assume there is some degree of larger appeal to men for that genre.

Competitive incoming bad take. I presume biologically, women are just as likely to be interested in competition as men. But society pushes competition on young boys at a much higher level, I believe toxic masculinity implies this as well. I'm unsure if in western society we can assume women are just as likely to be interested in competitive activities. Obviously, I'm not talking about all women.
I think you could say sports games also fall into the larger competitive game genre.

If we presume the above, doesn't it seem odd to tell women to play sports and competitive games, which are genres that they may be less likely to be interested in. Stats seem to show very low interest for women in these genres, although that could be instead due to exclusive or hard to breach communities.

Again doesn't this make bringing up the most popular games as evidence that video games are accommodating to women kind of lame, when a large portion of the higher selling games are competitive shooters or sports games.


Dusk Golem you should check out the horror discussion on page 103, curious if you have any different thoughts on this considering your background.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Also, I'm extremely sorry that I'm using the thread for this, and it's fine if someone tells me I should take this elsewhere, haha. But, a harmless rabbit Xaszatm I've seen a lot of people use the PS2 JRPG comparison when talking about Xenoblade 2, even Parish, whose review I enjoyed, so I was wondering... Are these comparison applicable to Xenoblade 1 too or are about elements introduced in the new game? I ADORE X1 and had no trouble getting used to it, but I wanted to know if X2 had new archaicly implemented features or if that was just an easy way to put things into perspective for people new to the series. I'm getting the game in a few hours and want to know what to expect mechanically, haha.

They're comparable to Xenoblade Chronicles 1, the flow of battle is a lot easier to see in this game compared to 1 or X and, once you get a hang of the battle system, it is a lot easier to recognize how and when to prolong combos. The tutorials are a little...vague and you never get them back after the first time so take snapshots of all tutorials for later. Battles for the most part are over quickly though so you won't have a chance to do combos all the time. But the small changes of how Arts charging is shown does give you a much better read on when to use your arts, especially with the Blades coming into play,
 

kaytee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
440
USA
Question in regards to people promoting sports and competitive games to women as safe genres without sexualisation. I could be really off base with the assertion I make in this post, so definitely tell me if I'm wrong.

Popular sports games usually feature male instead of female athletes, so I'd assume there is some degree of larger appeal to men for that genre.

Competitive incoming bad take. I presume biologically, women are just as likely to be interested in competition as men. But society pushes competition on young boys at a much higher level, I believe toxic masculinity implies this as well. I'm unsure if in western society we can assume women are just as likely to be interested in competitive activities. Obviously, I'm not talking about all women.
I think you could say sports games also fall into the larger competitive game genre.

If we presume the above, doesn't it seem odd to tell women to play sports and competitive games, which are genres that they may be less likely to be interested in. Stats seem to show very low interest for women in these genres, although that could be instead due to exclusive or hard to breach communities.

Again doesn't this make bringing up the most popular games as evidence that video games are accommodating to women kind of lame, when a large portion of the higher selling games are competitive shooters or sports games.

From what I've seen, there's a lot of scientific debate about how much testosterone influences the competitive drive, but you're right that socially speaking, women aren't brought up to be as competitive. I think the hostility towards women in competitive games is an enormous factor too.

So yes, from all I've seen women are less likely to play competitive games. There obviously are many women who enjoy multiplayer games, and I think more could be done to include them. (I believe Overwatch has a much higher female userbase than other competitive shooters?)

But even all that aside, telling people to just go play multiplayer games is nonsense, because plenty of people (like me) prefer single player games. I don't think a lot of these guys would appreciate me telling them to just stick to the newest Call of Duty or FIFA.
 

GamerJM

Member
Nov 8, 2017
15,656
If you're a lurker and you agree with something or have trouble understanding some points, I think it's cool to come out and just say so. Even a "that's a great post, thank you for sharing, I agree" can help the conversation, especially if said post came from a woman.

This is me. In the context of Resetera (whoops I forgot what website I'm on >_>), I generally don't like to do this too much under the logic that if everyone who felt this way did, topics would just get muddled with "that's a great post, thanks for sharing," which sort of distracts from actual discussion. Forums are supposed to be for discussion IMO, and saying things like this doesn't really contribute to discussion in a meaningful way aside from showing support. I think validating and signal-boosting makes more sense in the context of like, social media, which is something I don't really engage in at all.

That being said, I do agree with the OP for the most part and think it brings up valid points, and I'm glad OP decided to write it. I do think that like over 90% of sexualized character designs in the industry are pretty bad anyways.
 
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StoveOven

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,234
Question in regards to people promoting sports and competitive games to women as safe genres without sexualisation. I could be really off base with the assertion I make in this post, so definitely tell me if I'm wrong.

Popular sports games usually feature male instead of female athletes, so I'd assume there is some degree of larger appeal to men for that genre.

Competitive incoming bad take. I presume biologically, women are just as likely to be interested in competition as men. But society pushes competition on young boys at a much higher level, I believe toxic masculinity implies this as well. I'm unsure if in western society we can assume women are just as likely to be interested in competitive activities. Obviously, I'm not talking about all women.
I think you could say sports games also fall into the larger competitive game genre.

If we presume the above, doesn't it seem odd to tell women to play sports and competitive games, which are genres that they may be less likely to be interested in. Stats seem to show very low interest for women in these genres, although that could be instead due to exclusive or hard to breach communities.

Again doesn't this make bringing up the most popular games as evidence that video games are accommodating to women kind of lame, when a large portion of the higher selling games are competitive shooters or sports games.


Dusk Golem you should check out the horror discussion on page 103, curious if you have any different thoughts on this considering your background.
There's also the fact that telling women to just play competitive games ignores the fact that those communities are usually super fucking sexist
 

Opa-Pa

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,810
This is me. In the context of NeoGAF, I generally don't like to do this too much under the logic that if everyone who felt this way did, topics would just get muddled with "that's a great post, thanks for sharing," which sort of distracts from actual discussion. Forums are supposed to be for discussion IMO, and saying things like this doesn't really contribute to discussion in a meaningful way aside from showing support. I think validating and signal-boosting makes more sense in the context of like, social media, which is something I don't really engage in at all.

That being said, I do agree with the OP for the most part and think it brings up valid points, and I'm glad OP decided to write it. I do think that like over 90% of sexualized character designs in the industry are pretty bad anyways.
I actually agree with all that, in most cases anyway. I think in this particular one it's important to have posts like that every now and then both because there's the notion by "detractors" that since it's mostly the same people talking to each other this is an echo chamber that doesn't lead to anything productive, and having lurkers say they agree or that a particular post changed their perception of the problem might help. Also it helps encourage more people to share their views and experiences without feeling they're wasting their time.

That being said, I'm in no way judging lurkers who may want to stay silent, that's totally cool too!
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
If you're a lurker and you agree with something or have trouble understanding some points, I think it's cool to come out and just say so. Even a "that's a great post, thank you for sharing, I agree" can help the conversation, especially if said post came from a woman.

In general if you're a man and agree with these things, show your support, because in the eyes of other men who may not agree with any of this that might make the difference.


It's appreciated that you give your perspective, I think if more people who don't completely agree with what's presented in the OP were half as eloquent as you, discussion would be far easier.

I think the part about letting criticism get to you and feel like they're personal attacks is very valid, I know because I've been there, but I think it's important to realize that it's a bad trait rooted in how much we treat games as part of our identity. Also, on that matter, I think Twig says something very important:


I think it's vital to remember what we're arguing about in the first place when discussing these things. It's fine to feel attached to these games and their designs, but it's important to note that the other side is arguing in favor of women and their integrity, and I think everyone will agree that those are more important than video games and their fictional characters. The way I see it at least is that the conversation gets very frustrating because when people dismiss our arguments they're not just ignoring our personal opinions, but they're prioritizing their entertaintment over the integrity of their peers, real people with feelings and struggles, and that's simply hard to swallow.

(Apologies if any of this comes off as patronizing or anything similar. I swear that's not my intention)


KEW-POW.

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Also, I'm extremely sorry that I'm using the thread for this, and it's fine if someone tells me I should take this elsewhere, haha. But, a harmless rabbit Xaszatm I've seen a lot of people use the PS2 JRPG comparison when talking about Xenoblade 2, even Parish, whose review I enjoyed, so I was wondering... Are these comparison applicable to Xenoblade 1 too or are about elements introduced in the new game? I ADORE X1 and had no trouble getting used to it, but I wanted to know if X2 had new archaicly implemented features or if that was just an easy way to put things into perspective for people new to the series. I'm getting the game in a few hours and want to know what to expect mechanically, haha.

Nah your not being patronizing and I appreciate the response. I do hope women feel more comfortable in gaming spaces sooner rather then latter. Like I said I'm trying to be more sympathetic and not letting my own bias to what I like cloud how I respond.

I wish I had some meanginfull way to help but I don't really understand people to well. I will say to the women in this thread that I'm sorry for a lot of the hostility you face online.

I will say that while threads like this make me feel conflicted at times they have made me think about things I otherwise hadn't before. I've noticed how popular sexist insults(bitch,etc) have gotten in places and have tried to stop using anything along those lines in my vocabulary.

So I can say at least one person has learned something from discussions like this. While I may not lose all of my problematic interest I am trying to be a better person.

This kind of went away from me but I will say that I hope all the women who feel left out from the game community will feel welcome one day.
 
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