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Sonic the Hedgehog Community |OT| There’s no end to this franchise!
- Thread starter Professor Beef
- Start date
I don't get the love for the Utopia demo. It feels like it's trying to be 2D Sonic in 3D, almost like a different take on the original Sonic Adventure...
Can't 2D Stay 2D? We know that, for better or worse, 2d classic-styled or inspired Sonics aren't going away, so shouldn't the green-eyed master of faster get his time to shine in the sun alone, just once?
Or with Buddy, I'm cool with either or.
Utopia has no feeling of "exhilaration" while zooming past Petros the pelican and his friends through the cafe in Apotos, or getting that rail in Shamar...
Can't 2D Stay 2D? We know that, for better or worse, 2d classic-styled or inspired Sonics aren't going away, so shouldn't the green-eyed master of faster get his time to shine in the sun alone, just once?
Or with Buddy, I'm cool with either or.
Utopia has no feeling of "exhilaration" while zooming past Petros the pelican and his friends through the cafe in Apotos, or getting that rail in Shamar...
exactly
Don't get me wrong, I'm don't think it's the shining beacon of what 3D Sonic could be that some fans may think it is. But from what I have seen from people who do praise it, they largely seem to like the more accurate translation of the 2D physics into an open 3D space, something reminiscent of SA1.
Yeah, seriously lol. Some(most of us, honestly) of us at the end of the day still consider the Classic 2D gameplay to be the pinnacle of Sonic gameplay so when we think of the ideal 3D sonic gameplay, we tend to think of ways of bringing the 2D game's philosophies into 3D. I love the Boost gameplay when it's really good (so Unleashed, Generations) but it's very little like what made me love the series in the first place.
Utopia isn't perfect, but I think a more fine tuned version of it could be something special.
You say this looks 2D hasn't stayed 2D for the past 20 years anyway. Change is nice sometimes.
This makes the assumption that 2D Sonic's primary characteristic is being 2D, rather than its physics systems and openness of the level design.
Classic Sonic really almost was the platforming equivalent of an open world game for its time. It didn't carry the same impact, but sprawling massive levels that were based around exploration and tied to a robust physics system? Nothing remotely like that existed until Sonic hit the scene.
I mean Unleashed/Gens are more or less just Rush in 3D and despite both being 2D Rush and 1/2/3/CD/M play literally nothing alike. They have about as much in common as Sonic 3 and Mario 3.
I just got Sonic Forces on Black Friday, and at about stage 32. I honestly don't get all the hate for this game. Metacritic gave it a 58, but I feel its worth a few more points than that.
Can anyone break down why this is considered a bad sonic game? (Other than the slightly corny "Friendship always wins" story)
Can anyone break down why this is considered a bad sonic game? (Other than the slightly corny "Friendship always wins" story)
Generations has varying level paths just like the Classic games as well. I mean, I don't think we've gotten an example of a Sonic game that actually plays as tight and simplistic as the original games in a 3D environment like we do Unleashed / Generations gameplay. Essentially what I'm saying is that this is the best we're gonna get IMO in something that incorporates the control of 2D Sonic but retooled to work in 3D.
Classic Sonic does not work in 3D, it really is a type of game that requires 2D unlike Mario which can adjust accordingly due to his basic design and slower pace.
For Sonic fans, most of us are disappointed because the gameplay is a regression from Unleashed/Colors/Generations. Your move list is shortened, the levels are more linear, there are less unique level gimmicks and memorable moments(especially compared to Generations), and you just often have less control due to there being more automated sections.
On it's own, it's serviceable, but underwhelming. Considering that most review sites seem to consider a 7 the average, the game doesn't really deserve the relatively lows scores it's been getting, and a lot of it can be chucked up to critics just being ignorant and having a general distaste for Sonic, but a lot of the actual criticism is actually valid, just played up a bit.
The game is, by all means, completely functional and can be enjoyable... but it's hard to be that excited when we've Sonic Team do so much better in the past.
I really just can't agree with that. The free-flowing movement and creativity that the physics system provides is captured so much better in Adventure (1) and certain fangames like Utopia and Islands. None of those have quite hit the mark yet unfortunately, Adventure because it was rushed to market, a relatively early 3D title, and was held back by a CPU that struggled to compute the physics calculations, collision, and lighting all at once, Utopia and Islands because they're fangames/engines being developed from the ground up by amateur fan developers. In spite of their imperfections though, all three (and more) are far closer to capturing the feel of the classic tetralogy and Mania than any of the Boost games which I again have to say are really just Sonic Rush in 3D (which isn't bad! I fucking love Sonic Rush! But they're really not the same). How could it be the best we're gonna get, hard stop, when it's not even the best we've gotten so far?
Once again what I'm trying to say is you aren't gonna get a game that is as tightly controlled as the Classic Sonic games other than Unleashed / Generations styled gameplay because to implement Classic Sonic into a 3D space adds so many variables that would in turn make it not as slick and you would have to get an inferior experience trying to adapt his style to every said variable that 3D offers. You won't get that fine tuned 2D feel just from how many angles there are, there's a reason Homing Attack exists.
Right now it's just another physics testbed demo but in an even earlier state than Utopia.
Until we start seeing actual levels come out of them they're promising, but nothing really worth comparing to fully finished projects.
A lot of people don't feel like classic Sonic has especially tight controls and gameplay to begin with. To us fans that's crazy because we understand the consistency of the physics system. We accept the sloppy ness that other reject because to us that's predictable and a part of the game within the game, like getting good at a racing title or any other performance based experience.
If I understand, you're saying that classic Sonic is not possible due to the reality that 2D perspective could communicate to the detail, consistency and density than is possible in 3D. The best we can get is to replicate the feeling of precision to end users while abandoning the mechanics that got us there.
I see your point, but I do disagree. And the reason that automated Sonic feels hollow to a lot of us is because we fought a physics system that could be used against us to get those moments in 2D Sonic.
Sure some elements will be adjusted, but that's no different than how MARIO was adjusted to make the jump to 3D. Areas as a whole have become broader in and the horizontal plane with a tilted or near birds eye camera positioning is bigger focus for platforming now.
The challenge for Sonic is that you do need to do something similar but the 2D games already typically had much looser design. Staying true to Sonic creates a host of problems.
You need to have that same feeling of near constant tactility with a high speed character while also pushing the levels out wider in design to acomodate the new perspective. But how do you do that without levels becoming featureless and uninteresting?
In 3D everything has to be 'bigger'. Imagine a half pipe in Sonic CD or what not. You couldn't put the same thing in to scale in a 3D game, the feedback the player gets just couldn't be conveyed as well and it's a nightmare for camera orientation.
Do you put slopes and platforms everywhere? But then how do you have solid level design that leads the player to an end goal How do you replicate the more extreme elements?
If you have too much density you will run into major issues with camera and Sonic slipping and slipping around in ways, but if you flatten things out too much then it doesn't feel like Sonic. Too many slopes and physics interactions and the game will be too hard and playability becomes an issue.
But I think the answer isn't as hard as people think. A part of it is going to be embracing that openess while making sure that your core game systems keep the player considering what they're doing at a given moment.
A lot of this will come down to finely tuned things, especially the camera.
So a spring that shoots Sonic into the air as an example. If it's meant to be one of those 'launcher springs', tilt the camera down slightly while he's up there to show his choices for landing, making him think about a few options and how he might need to curl into a ball to go off a ramp or hit a bad nick on one, or if he has enough velocity to get to that floating platform.
Other traditionally Sonic platform design elements will have to be adjusted, changed, or removed.
The full loop should be widened, increased in size, and the camera should pull further back when you're in it all to help you understand the 3D space.
Maybe the new half pipe equivalent in a 360 degree bowl shape and the camera will go mostly above Sonic. Instead of a rotating spike through the entirety of it that must be avoided there is a ball rolling in it.
The game will try to make sure that you have clear sight lines to complex shapes and challenges before you reache them.
And it will probably have to embrace a more playground like design with moment to moment mini games and challenges as it were. Kind of like how Sonic CD loved to just have little areas that were there for you to mess around it.
Gotcha, the rolling and momentum from the half pipe looks spot on.
If I understand, you're saying that classic Sonic is not possible due to the reality that 2D perspective could communicate to the detail, consistency and density than is possible in 3D. The best we can get is to replicate the feeling of precision to end users while abandoning the mechanics that got us there.
I see your point, but I do disagree. And the reason that automated Sonic feels hollow to a lot of us is because we fought a physics system that could be used against us to get those moments in 2D Sonic.
Sure some elements will be adjusted, but that's no different than how MARIO was adjusted to make the jump to 3D. Areas as a whole have become broader in and the horizontal plane with a tilted or near birds eye camera positioning is bigger focus for platforming now.
The challenge for Sonic is that you do need to do something similar but the 2D games already typically had much looser design. Staying true to Sonic creates a host of problems.
You need to have that same feeling of near constant tactility with a high speed character while also pushing the levels out wider in design to acomodate the new perspective. But how do you do that without levels becoming featureless and uninteresting?
In 3D everything has to be 'bigger'. Imagine a half pipe in Sonic CD or what not. You couldn't put the same thing in to scale in a 3D game, the feedback the player gets just couldn't be conveyed as well and it's a nightmare for camera orientation.
Do you put slopes and platforms everywhere? But then how do you have solid level design that leads the player to an end goal How do you replicate the more extreme elements?
If you have too much density you will run into major issues with camera and Sonic slipping and slipping around in ways, but if you flatten things out too much then it doesn't feel like Sonic. Too many slopes and physics interactions and the game will be too hard and playability becomes an issue.
But I think the answer isn't as hard as people think. A part of it is going to be embracing that openess while making sure that your core game systems keep the player considering what they're doing at a given moment.
A lot of this will come down to finely tuned things, especially the camera.
So a spring that shoots Sonic into the air as an example. If it's meant to be one of those 'launcher springs', tilt the camera down slightly while he's up there to show his choices for landing, making him think about a few options and how he might need to curl into a ball to go off a ramp or hit a bad nick on one, or if he has enough velocity to get to that floating platform.
Other traditionally Sonic platform design elements will have to be adjusted, changed, or removed.
The full loop should be widened, increased in size, and the camera should pull further back when you're in it all to help you understand the 3D space.
Maybe the new half pipe equivalent in a 360 degree bowl shape and the camera will go mostly above Sonic. Instead of a rotating spike through the entirety of it that must be avoided there is a ball rolling in it.
The game will try to make sure that you have clear sight lines to complex shapes and challenges before you reache them.
And it will probably have to embrace a more playground like design with moment to moment mini games and challenges as it were. Kind of like how Sonic CD loved to just have little areas that were there for you to mess around it.
Gotcha, the rolling and momentum from the half pipe looks spot on.
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OP
OP
Sonic isn't "open world" in the slightest. You're stretching like Dhalsim here. The only one that came close was Sonic CD, and we all know how that split people.
I'd never compare Classic 2D Sonic to Open World games since when I think of most Open Worlds in games, I think of barren environment (in terms of what meaningful things you can do, not in terms of looks) and a lack of focus/cohesion.
The Classic games are very much tightly designed, in Sonic 3 & Knuckle's case, to a near-perfection. They don't have filler and never feel bloated, besides Sonic CD.
The Classic games are very much tightly designed, in Sonic 3 & Knuckle's case, to a near-perfection. They don't have filler and never feel bloated, besides Sonic CD.
Obviously we disagree but we're talking about degrees here. Compare it to its contemporaries of the time. The massive levels and alternate paths gave off a sense of freedom and exploration in the very linear genre.
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maybe my perspective is down to me not being familiar with those games
Well I'd forgotten that Metroid was a thing on the nes and that castlevania predated Sonic. I still think that the openess Of Sonic was a huge eye opener in the realm of more traditional platform era at the time.
Well I'd forgotten that Metroid was a thing on the nes and that castlevania predated Sonic. I still think that the openess Of Sonic was a huge eye opener in the realm of more traditional platform era at the time.
But... I really don't get what you mean here. In Sonic Adventure the other day I was goofing around in Emerald Coast and at the section immediately after the whale, I noticed that the slope leading up to the spring on the mountain also had curved walls that Sonic could run on. Obviously I've seen speedrunning videos where the player just mashes B like a madman and Sonic rockets up the mountain with spindash, but I was curious to see if I could use the boost from a single charged spindash to run up the ramp, onto the mountain wall, all the way up to the top. It worked! Neat. I messed around with the physics and found a cute little shortcut that I created for myself - that's what Classic Sonic is about. You can't experiment like that in the boost games because 99% of the time you try to play in a way that isn't the immediately obvious route set out for you, you die. Which, again, is fine. It's fun. But it's not Classic Sonic.
Edit - I think you're onto something with your ideas, Seeya. I love the idea of 3D Sonic levels serving as playgrounds for the player to experiment with the convergent mechanics, complex physics, and level design gimmicks. Even end-game Egg Fleet style levels could have players try to figure out ways to leap from plane to plane with numerous different methods of building momentum and avenues for exploration.
Also for the love of God bring back mid-level special stages like the big rings, and even robot generators to give extra incentive to explore and mess around.
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My wording implied something else earlier but what I've been clarifying recently is that I'm more concerned about the tightness in control of a 3D Sonic game. Modern Sonic isn't 1:1 Classic replica but I'm also saying that it's the best chance we're gonna get at a tightly knit Sonic gameplay in the 3D space. One that has the simplification of 2D but in a 3D space.
I legit don't think Classic Sonic in 3D could even work in a solid way. I'm not impressed with Sonic Utopia either which is more akin to a Tony Hawk game to me and misses the point of linearity.
I'm actually of the opinion that a 3D game with classic Sonic's pinball physics could work - I've played enough engine tests to see decent implementations firsthand, all the way back to BlitzSonic, around when Super Smash Bros. Brawl was just about to release.
That said, there's yet to be level design that really sells me on the concept. I wonder if the gameplay might benefit from being more like Super Mario 64 or Banjo-Kazooie - several small, self-contained playgrounds for you to dick around with the physics and accomplish multiple objectives. I'm pretty sure many would balk at that, and not unjustifiably so (it's an even more drastic departure from Sonic's arcadey left-to-right focus than it was Mario's slightly-less-arcadey-by-the-SNES-era-but-still-pretty-rooted-in-arcade-design left-to-right focus), but being on the side who loves CD for its exploration focus, yeah, sure, I'd be down with it. Hell, it doesn't even have to be a Sonic game - that sounds like it might be an interesting venue for a new franchise altogether.
I don't really agree with the Utopia praise, though, partly because the level design is a little too open for its own good, but admittedly it's mostly because one of the developers rubs me the wrong way.
That said, there's yet to be level design that really sells me on the concept. I wonder if the gameplay might benefit from being more like Super Mario 64 or Banjo-Kazooie - several small, self-contained playgrounds for you to dick around with the physics and accomplish multiple objectives. I'm pretty sure many would balk at that, and not unjustifiably so (it's an even more drastic departure from Sonic's arcadey left-to-right focus than it was Mario's slightly-less-arcadey-by-the-SNES-era-but-still-pretty-rooted-in-arcade-design left-to-right focus), but being on the side who loves CD for its exploration focus, yeah, sure, I'd be down with it. Hell, it doesn't even have to be a Sonic game - that sounds like it might be an interesting venue for a new franchise altogether.
I don't really agree with the Utopia praise, though, partly because the level design is a little too open for its own good, but admittedly it's mostly because one of the developers rubs me the wrong way.
Hot Take: I like the Red Rings and I hope they keep coming back, though they're way too easy to find in Forces.
I'm still largely convinced that the most successful translation of classic Sonic into 3D is going to end up looking a lot like Mario 3D World.
They're a neat little reward for pathfinding. Kinda surprised that no one seems to have hacked them into 1/2/3&K yet, as they'd fit the classic games like a glove.
OP
OP
Jack up the radius of the insta-shield, strip away the invulnerability frames so you can still use enemies with spiky bits, rename it to something that makes more sense at this point, and apply the heightened radius automatically if you have an actual shield.
I like the red rings as a functional item to collect, but I'd prefer to have a few more things to collect that serve different purposes as well. The giant rings have now been established as portals to the Special Zone, where the gameplay changes into something new and you have the opportunity to earn a Chaos Emeralds and rings that you can use in a shop (Mario Odyssey ditching lives in favor of making coins more valuable is genius), I'd love to see that in an Adventure style game. Also, a personal favorite concept of mine was CD's relationship between the robot generators and its time travel mechanic. I wouldn't want time travel to be a staple or anything, but I think it would be really, really cool to reward players for finding a hidden robot generator machine with a slightly altered, more colorful version of the level with happier music and animal buddies running around instead of robots. Maybe Red Star Rings could be in-universe currency in a premium shop that sells art/music/power-ups like in Generations, and normal rings could be used in a different shop with Chao items and consumables.
OP
OP
Red Rings are cool, albeit a little Mario rippyoffy but it works.
Kinda wondering how this especially rips off Mario when Sonic's had in-game collectables of that nature since Sonic 3D Blast. This isn't a recent thing, the Red Rings in particular are new-ish, but Sonic Pocket Adventure had puzzle pieces, Adventure had emblems, Unleashed had the medals and so on.
It's just that it's a thing most platformers have you do? You could say Donkey Kong is a ripoff of Mario for all of the puzzle pieces and KONG letters you have to collect going off of this logic.
I don't really have much of a stake in this discussion, just bringing it up.
In a perfect world, the game would have the freedom fighters, and getting all the Red Star rings would unlock Overclocked Nicole.
Sonic Spinball's OST is legit fantastic. The track for The Showdown is awesome and is my favorite track for the last level in any Genesis Sonic game.
Red Rings look kinda like the Star Coins in the New Super Mario games, I guess.
Also, just make the enemies really large, so it's easy to hit them.
OP
OP
They're also closer in purpose functionally. Emblems were more akin to Stars/Goalposts/Shines and the Medals were mandatory. Puzzle Pieces were pretty close, actually forgot about them.
As well as marking more enemies that come to you like a goomba or basucally set themselves up by homing on you. You could also have an enemy that might try to basically belly flop on you and once it does his rather large back in can be bounced on.
That's not to say though that you couldn't still give Sonic a homing attack when it's all said and done, but it could be limited to one use per jump, or something more like the combo system had they had in Lost World. I dunno, a weaker homing attack that could be used more for positional orientation that played nice with physics could work.
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You can do this to an extent, but keeping the scale between Sonic and the rest of the world is important or you run into the Generations problem where he feels like a midget.
This is key, though, particularly as part of attack routines that need to be avoided, lest badniks become too trivially avoided.
I just want proper rolling in 3D Sonic games. Adventure 1 sorta tried and it actually had slopes and all that so a revitalized version of that would be super cool to me.
For all of the deserved negativity Sonic Lost World gets, the concept of holding a trigger for rolling is absolutely excellent I think. Now just give it momentum properties, let me crash into buildings and vehicles like that and it would be the best thing.
For all of the deserved negativity Sonic Lost World gets, the concept of holding a trigger for rolling is absolutely excellent I think. Now just give it momentum properties, let me crash into buildings and vehicles like that and it would be the best thing.
Sonic Spinball's soundtrack is badass. Would have loved to see STI make some more Sonic titles without SEGA Japan's input. That said, listen to it in the poorly emulated Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 Genesis Collection version of this song if you want to feel real pain.
IDW is asking who your favorite character is...
Had to be honest.
Seriously though, Nicole is best.
Had to be honest.
Seriously though, Nicole is best.
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