I feel you get weirdly irrational whenever nier:a comes up. :P
I find 2b to be a pretty fascinating character mostly in the way they revealed her story. She can't be making big fat jokes like Weiss all the time but that's ok.
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
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I feel you get weirdly irrational whenever nier:a comes up. :P
I find 2b to be a pretty fascinating character mostly in the way they revealed her story. She can't be making big fat jokes like Weiss all the time but that's ok.
It's a conflation of the vile communities for 80s synth pop band Erasure, anagrams and typos.
Am I? I'm sorry if that's the case, I don't notice it :(
Mind you game is still top3-4 this year for me.
Oh nah, it's just that I've seen you hating that nier:a is the dominant game in search results a couple of times. I mean it's only natural seeing that it is the one that blew up.
I know that you love the first one more though and I can respect that.
https://www.resetera.com/posts/1597145/
He's wearing a 2B avatar. I wouldn't be surprised if he's more sensitive to discussion of that game than most people are.
They are "weirdly irrational" because... they don't like a character you like?
I actually kind of like 2B's design, but come on now.... that's insulting.
And this pushed it straight into creepy-stalky territory... :/
It doesn't really seem like people are going to budge on 2B. I and many other people spoke about how she's justified and others have given their reasoning on why they feel the opposite. If the conversation is what Yoko Taro wanted, he definitely got it, but I don't think there's anywhere to go from there on that front. But that's fine, I find divisive stuff a lot more interesting than things with a clear consensus.
Dude we've interacted with each other in the nier community quite a few times? Unless ferry feels uncomfortable about it in which case I apologise
no, I think he means that Ferrs hates that Nier:A has replaced Nier: Gestalt in the Google search results, as it's a far bigger game now.
I don't see how that makes it OK to call them irrational for not liking a character, nor understand the comment about "search results" if you were referring to your interactions in the thread; but hey, you guys do you, I didn't want to derail the thread.
Aaaaaah, OK. Sorry about that.
Edit: OK, I see it now. I parsed it as "from search results, I see you hate that N:A is the dominant game" when it was "I see you hate that N:A is the game that dominates search results". :D
I mean to be fair irrational was definitely a much harsher word than I intended. Sometimes I miss the proper vocabulary to convey my tone.
Nadia Oxford wrote this:
http://www.usgamer.net/articles/xenoblade-chronicles-2-pyra-review-followup
There's More to Pyra—and Xenoblade Chronicles 2—than a Sexy Fanservice Outfit
I'm still trying to sort out how I feel about XB2. At the beginning right now.
http://www.usgamer.net/articles/xenoblade-chronicles-2-pyra-review-followup
There's More to Pyra—and Xenoblade Chronicles 2—than a Sexy Fanservice Outfit
I'm still trying to sort out how I feel about XB2. At the beginning right now.
I think the key word there is compromise. It seems like her design is at odds with her actual character in the game? Which I feel is what this thread was about.
After playing the first two chapters (and doing plenty of sidequests), Pyra really has no justification in that outfit. It doesn't match her personality at all and only serves as a distraction in certain scenes. It really seems to only exist as eye candy. Which is a shame.
Yeah it's a...pretty staggeringly unfitting outfit, only made worse by the fact that she's such a competent, likeable character in a cast of, well, competent likeable characters. The fact that most of the actual story cast is either completely reasonably dressed or at least roughly within the realm of classic JRPG design only makes it stand out even more.
I can understand the impetus behind the article too, in this case. As much as I wholly respect anyone for whom game would normally be an obvious buy who skips it because of the design work, it's a real goddamn shame in this case. Mechanically crunchy RPGs that are also this polished and full of tangible "soul" don't really come along very often, and it being undermined by some seriously incongruent character design is too bad.
I do still contend that, while there have been few egregious scenes here and there, the camera's actually been surprisingly respectful which at least helps to mitigate it. There are some really perceptibly weird cuts where you can tell that they were deliberately trying not to undermine the seriousness of a scene by... having Pyra exist in full frame. Because that's what her design does. It inherently undermines the narrative. It's a real clownsuit problem.
The fact that Morag (hallowed be her name) and Pyra's designs were done by the same designer for the same game gives me an actual headache. It's so unfathomably weird.
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Can't really contribute to the XC2 conversation. Gotta pick up a Switch one of these days.
Also yea, Twitter is like an infinite field of bad posters.
Also yea, Twitter is like an infinite field of bad posters.
I think I have better, more meaningful chats with my cat.
That exchange is funny because one of the biggest targets of Gamergate was all for "anime loli titties". These people don't care even if they align with them on a lot of things, the second "feminist critique" is brought into the fold, they lose their minds.
"Let me just bring in *MY* Gamer girl friend to confirm my opinion which is definitely right!"
I considered linking this thread and saying 'well here's a bunch of women saying otherwise' but I was drunk and at a bar. That's a bad combo.
Chaparral I'm sure you meant well, but please avoid bringing up Twitter arguments on the forum, it's just not a good idea in general. (It's not a hard and fast rule as far as I know, but yeah, best not.)
Be honest though, would you have accepted an in-game "justification" anyway? :)
I agree. I always look forward to what Nadia has to say on the weekly podcasts she features on. It's upsetting that she has received Twitter backlash for apparently not being upset enough about Pyra's design. I am doing what Nadia describes, compromising on her design because I am enjoying the rest of the game and cast. Moreover, it's not the design that bothers me as much as the camera panning. As the fellow from Brasil mentioned, living people with autonomy "dress like Pyra" in real life. It's pretty common to see as a college student in a warm environment, and not just in a clubbing context. The issue for me is moreso the camera work and decisions like having Rex wake up staring at Pyra's chest.
I see that you too worship at the feet of Morag (hallowed be her name). Her character design alone is incredible but her battle intro in chapter two got me badass chills I haven't had since Sephiroth. She has a great personality and heaven help me she better be a playable character later on in the story because it would such a waste not to be able to play as someone so awesome.
But yeah, Pyra suffers severely from the clownsuit problem and the camera has to try its hardest to pretend she isn't wearing...that all the time. It's an honest shame because the rare blades play so little into the game that it just baffles me why they were so prominent in the marketing. And Pyra herself is actually a pretty great character all things considered but she's reduced to eye candy because of the outfit, neatly robbing her of the agency the game's story and plot is desperately trying to give her.
Not really no, that outfit has so many problems I can't even begin to count, least of all the boob socks. Which is an absolute shame because most of the rest of the main cast either doesn't dress crazy or at least I can understand what they're going for. Brigid, for instance, is just as fanservicey but has this Officer and Lady design that fits nicely with Morag (hallowed be her name) so I can at least see the direction. But Pyra doesn't even have that. It's just baffling that it made all the way through the design process.
It can't be easy to keep getting drive by posts saying that they just don't care, "I just wanna play games" etc. So Just wanted to chime in and say that this thread has been a great read, and made me take notice of stuff I actually never thought of. I'll keep reading and learning hopefully.
Yeah, like. Brighid makes sense to me. Blades are immortal, undying, infinitely regenerating beings that can deploy energy shields at will and wield a power akin to demigods. She literally sets entire rooms on blue flame just to make a flashy entrance. Entirely for the aesthetic of it. Her evening gown FITS. It communicates her personality perfectly, and pairs aesthetically with Morag's unbelievably badass uniform in a way that makes them both immediately striking and iconic. It's an incredibly successful design, even if it exposes, well, most of the center of her body in the way that particularly audacious gowns do plus some anime extra for garnish.
Pyra's just, you know, nonsense. Anime nonsense.
The cutscene director probably felt a lot more strongly about it than the main directors did.
It's a mystery to be sure. Like, it's annoying because I want to recommend this game because it gets so much right but Pyra is just so distracting that I have to pause. Hell, it's half the reason why I (and I suspect many people in this thread) talk about these characters all the time. Because we all greatly enjoy these games but Cid, Quiet, and now Pyra are just such large sticking points that it is enough to pull one out of the game. Which is why it is annoying why people starting snarking to play something else. It's like, no, I like almost everything else about this game except this one portion so I'm going to talk about how this one portion is preventing me from fully enjoying this game.
Yeah, the other Rare Blades we've seen seem to have a theme going on with them. But Rex and Pyra? Wetsuit water boy and...fanservice girl? Like, there isn't a theme with these two at all.
Interesting that this page is up on the front. Don't like reviving old threads.
Some cents,
First people strawmanned me to jupiter. I didn't say 100% humans are attracted to one particular butt, that's nonsense. I said butts in general and more generally the human form as opposed to pears, cars or horses, etc. Second I didn't say genes lol end debate, I said genes as an example of the origin of our general attraction to the human shape, and commented on the nonexistence of objective morality. This was not to end debate but as backing to the counter point that perhaps its not all negative and some may see it in a positive light, and those who see it in a positive light are not intrinsically wrong in any absolute sense.
I got the impression some implied I was imposing, in my views imposing is going into totally unrelated threads and promoting such views. IF you go into an anti gun regulation or a the problems of gun regulation thread and bring up the counter point of the benefits of regulation, that's about the right thread to put that.
Also will say that for over 100 thousand years humanity evolved as hunter gatherers with most being relatively fit due to the high activity and scarce food. That is where any innate inclinations mostly developed.
Regards the social sciences, these are plagued by a lack of reproducibility, afaik. Don't put much weight on a field plagued by such.
Some cents,
First people strawmanned me to jupiter. I didn't say 100% humans are attracted to one particular butt, that's nonsense. I said butts in general and more generally the human form as opposed to pears, cars or horses, etc. Second I didn't say genes lol end debate, I said genes as an example of the origin of our general attraction to the human shape, and commented on the nonexistence of objective morality. This was not to end debate but as backing to the counter point that perhaps its not all negative and some may see it in a positive light, and those who see it in a positive light are not intrinsically wrong in any absolute sense.
I got the impression some implied I was imposing, in my views imposing is going into totally unrelated threads and promoting such views. IF you go into an anti gun regulation or a the problems of gun regulation thread and bring up the counter point of the benefits of regulation, that's about the right thread to put that.
Also will say that for over 100 thousand years humanity evolved as hunter gatherers with most being relatively fit due to the high activity and scarce food. That is where any innate inclinations mostly developed.
Regards the social sciences, these are plagued by a lack of reproducibility, afaik. Don't put much weight on a field plagued by such.
https://streamable.com/v14z7
Very mild Chapter 2 spoilers for XC2. Please release a DLC where this is what she wears permanently.
When you say 'it' what do you mean. See what in a positive light? Butts? I love butts, everyone here probably likes butts. Who is saying they don't like butts? It's about context. This just sounds like the prudish argument again.
What's your point here?
Very mild Chapter 2 spoilers for XC2. Please release a DLC where this is what she wears permanently.
When you say 'it' what do you mean. See what in a positive light? Butts? I love butts, everyone here probably likes butts. Who is saying they don't like butts? It's about context. This just sounds like the prudish argument again.
What's your point here?
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Yeah, I think that's what bothers me the most about this. Like, you see a costume like Pyra and you expect gratuitous cheesecake everywhere, a constant, voyeuristic focus. Instead you get lots of extreme facial closeups and seeming active avoidance of ever showing her lower back whenever possible on account of those shorts cover nothing.
The only time I feel like I'm getting full body shots of her are when things are at a significant distance, in shots with multiple characters or where she has to directly interact with someone, or during action scenes--and the action scenes feel framed more conservatively than even Hollywood films tend to be with regard to how they treat her body. Even the shots that do wind up looking a little skeevy can almost all be theoretically justified through other reasoning--the waking up in a lap scene is a stock Japanese scene for exhibiting emotional intimacy, for instance (the blur on her face lasts for the duration of an eyeblink and then she's fully in focus, for the record. I had to rewatch it to even confirm the blur happened. Not that the scene wasn't still egregious as hell.)
I've seen a lot of pandery anime trash in my day, willingly even, and this does not feel like it's framed like your everyday pandery anime trash.
I'm sure some will inevitably get a different read of this than I am, but from my end everything about the production from writing to direction seems to be attempting to treat Pyra with respect any character ought to be due, actively working around her design to try and mitigate the damage it inherently does. It makes the entire thing feel schizophrenic, which I guess makes sense for a game with a dozen plus different character designers ranging from relative household names to literal pornographers.
It's really, really weird.
Like, I'd almost prefer for someone to come in here and tell me I'm an idiot who can't parse framing or direction and am willfully ignoring a bunch of dubious trashy camera creeping along with an academic rundown of how Literally Objectively Wrong my read is at this point because that would make more logical sense than what I feel like I'm actually experiencing, here.
The other thing that's weird in XC2 is that there are some comedic scenes that come off as super juvenile, in the sense that they're jokes for kids. Like the guard who didn't know emerald was green, now maybe I'm just being pretentious but that was some VERY basic humour to have a whole scene revolve around it right?
So they wanna entertain kids but then also have tits magee flopping about... very strange.
So they wanna entertain kids but then also have tits magee flopping about... very strange.
Considering the extreme sexualization of pretty much everything in American / Western culture
I have always been fascinating by the prude stance some people take about Japanese pulp
Blonde bikini shots all over LAX = OK (I mean but they are classy pictures right?.. right?)
Weird looking suit for Anime girl = SEXUAL OBJECTIFICATION
I don't know, I like sex, my wife like sex... sex is Ok maybe, just stop being weird about it, enjoy it.
I'm not gonna say feminism is wrong, I'm all down for gender equality. But, could not differ more from feminism Sarkeesian style, l just don't get it, seems more fixated on shaming feminine traits as if they were actually bad, than actually seeking harmony and balance between genders.
I have always been fascinating by the prude stance some people take about Japanese pulp
Blonde bikini shots all over LAX = OK (I mean but they are classy pictures right?.. right?)
Weird looking suit for Anime girl = SEXUAL OBJECTIFICATION
I don't know, I like sex, my wife like sex... sex is Ok maybe, just stop being weird about it, enjoy it.
I'm not gonna say feminism is wrong, I'm all down for gender equality. But, could not differ more from feminism Sarkeesian style, l just don't get it, seems more fixated on shaming feminine traits as if they were actually bad, than actually seeking harmony and balance between genders.
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I don't know about the English script, but the Japanese script is definitely aimed at a younger audience. Clumsily, in fact (Rex and Nia complain about "adults" and accuse each other of being "kids").
It's not sex.
I'm not talking about the act itself, but all the cultural expressions surrounding sex. Talk to any anthropologist fashion has always been about mating.
Yeah imagine that. People are bothered a lot more by men designing an impossibly proportioned girl with the body of a fully mature woman and the face of a child and wearing an exploitative costume that she certainly would not have chosen to wear herself, compared to billboards showing real women wearing realistic clothes in situationally appropriate scenarios.
During the period you are describing, being much larger was looked positively upon as it meant you were provided for, weren't starving, were fertile, etc.
I'm no expert, but from what I've heard this is understanding. Although, I guess this would likely vary depending on which region of the world we are talking about.
Stop. This isn't what is being proposed, no where close to that. So you are saying that the women here are shaming others to feel bad about feminine traits, instead of what is actually being discussed in regards to not having the majority of female characters designed in a way that only shows them as titilation for male players.
It really does feel like we are back in the 'prudish' end of this thread again which couldn't be anywhere further from the truth.
She actually actively complains about it ingame when night falls.
"Oh. Aaaaand I'm glowing."
it's not really that weird.
One piece is meant to be for kids too.
Yeah because all those bikini ads resemble your average girl, all the realism. Also is not like there is any social pressure weather direct or indirect to wear sexualized clothes, right ?
See fan service in a positive light. There are quite a few of both genders that would probably defend it and find it in a positive light. Even if they are a minority the majority isn't right by default.
Don't want to rethread the anticulture argument. Some are more easily influenced some barely influenced. I'm barely influenced I pick and choose from cultures from across the world. The local culture in which I grew I disliked it from a young age despite everyone around being gungho about it, had to fake interest in it not to hurt feelings or seem like a weirdo.
Culture influencing people is an argument for age restrictions or parental locks on fan service, but regards adults the higher ratings are there to allow for virtually anything, gore, torture, etc
I didn't say average. Don't put words in my mouth. Obviously advertisements are idealized. No shit.
There's social pressure for a lot of things. You still get to choose what to do. For example, there's a social pressure to be understanding and not make strawman arguments, but that hasn't stopped you.
I'm very happy to see that you guys are enjoying Pyra as a character and calling her like that. I'm not with Xenoblade 2 right now (probably tomorrow) but with people liking her despite her controversial design, at least this is a good thing for me.
I'm not that bothered by her design like you or some others but I can totally understand what you guys are saying about her. In fact, I actually like her design in a basic level with the colors, gloves, face and hair but I would change some parts of the clothes and body including making her boobs a bit more smaller and I would make some changes like in this image about a possible "censorship". If they did this, it would be much better for her but unfortunately, it's too late for that.
Wanting characters that aren't undermined by pandering to male hardons isn't "prudishness." Also, objectification is called out in other media and isn't limited to "Japanese pulp."
This is reductive, out of context, and pretty much a strawman.
Hey, there's one thing you got right.
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Like, how can you not see the difference in a model doing a bikini shoot for an ad and a character in a video game drawn with a body of a woman and a face of a child, said character also having a design that has her body highlighted in a sexy manner?
One has the agency to do so. And is in their power to do so. The other does not, and is only drawn in the style of what the (usually men) drawer is into. This is the entire crux of the thread, how the second is wrong and there needs to be more pushback against it. Yet as this thread shows, time and time again, the old boys club attitude pervasive in gaming will never let go of their titties and bodies, it seems.
One has the agency to do so. And is in their power to do so. The other does not, and is only drawn in the style of what the (usually men) drawer is into. This is the entire crux of the thread, how the second is wrong and there needs to be more pushback against it. Yet as this thread shows, time and time again, the old boys club attitude pervasive in gaming will never let go of their titties and bodies, it seems.
These things aren't sex, though. You can like sex and dislike sexual objectification.
What feminine traits do you feel are being shamed?
I'm still early in the game, and it doesn't really seem to be the case, there are some self awareness about the whole thing which I find interesting.
Besides, both men and women are all about "titilation" of the other gender, that is what make us a sexual species. I don't really consider that abnormal at all.
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