UK Muslim children are being spoon‑fed misogyny in a subset of Islamic Faith Schools
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I feel that would be dangerous. Many people get radicalized because of what their idea of a religion is. Isis, for example, got many young people that were born in the west to join them because of them being unsure what Islam is supposed to be and when the media does a bad job of separating the two it is very easy to radicalize them.
Schools aren't helping are they? Infact some are adding to the problem.
It's also why I think RE should be replaced with sex education or classes to make youngsters learn to cook and more independent etc
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That would probably breech freedom of religion in the UK though
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_the_United_Kingdom
I think one of the best ways to tackle this is mainstream attention, hopefully pressuring the Government to stand by why things like Ofsted are setup, and to follow through on their supposed committment to educating children responsibly. There can be a variation of opinion around science and some other things within faith schools, even if some of us think it's "dumb opinions", but once we hit teaching violence, rape and explicit homophobia/antisemitism, it's time for the Government to investigate said schools.
You could maybe make an argument to abolish publicly funded faith schools, but there seems to be like next to none of them. It's majority privately funded. I would actually support abolishing public funding for any faith schools that still exist. Then again, I also support some sort of tax reform on Churches/Religious places of worship in general, but that's another argument altogether. Sticking to faith schools, yes, whatever public ones are left should have their state funding pulled. Traditional public schools still teach religious education, and THAT is what should be publicly funded so that it's an education for all faiths.
As a devout Muslim myself, I'm not fond of most Islamic schools having had bad experiences as a kid.
Mostly from teachers who had a Wahhabist/Salafist leaning, which pisses me off as that ideology is toxic and it's pretty much everywhere nowadays. Like IslamQA type rubbish where everything is literal.
The things I've heard about women were just bizarre, moreso online than irl though.
I don't talk about it too much because it always ends up being a discussion about how I'm some kind of reformist or w/e. Mention I have Sufi opinions and apparently I'm a grave worshipping scumbag, even though my teachings are in line with a high percentage of Muslims.
But I can't converse with them or make them understand(this goes for the Muslims I'm talking about but also others who bunch people like me with the lot). So I don't know how I could talk to these people that teaching these things are wrong.
That's just from my experience though. I just keep it personal.
Mostly from teachers who had a Wahhabist/Salafist leaning, which pisses me off as that ideology is toxic and it's pretty much everywhere nowadays. Like IslamQA type rubbish where everything is literal.
The things I've heard about women were just bizarre, moreso online than irl though.
I don't talk about it too much because it always ends up being a discussion about how I'm some kind of reformist or w/e. Mention I have Sufi opinions and apparently I'm a grave worshipping scumbag, even though my teachings are in line with a high percentage of Muslims.
But I can't converse with them or make them understand(this goes for the Muslims I'm talking about but also others who bunch people like me with the lot). So I don't know how I could talk to these people that teaching these things are wrong.
That's just from my experience though. I just keep it personal.
My Catholic school was fine, religion was kept to RE lessons and assemblies, we learnt about other faiths, normal sex/relationship education, and everyone accepted that science > religion.
All faith schools should be teaching inline with the state schools per national curriculum, and certainly nothing hateful. If they do teach or suggest anything hateful or backwards, they should be shutdown or taken over by the local authority.
All faith schools should be teaching inline with the state schools per national curriculum, and certainly nothing hateful. If they do teach or suggest anything hateful or backwards, they should be shutdown or taken over by the local authority.
If you have to keep religious schools. There should be clear guidelines on what you can and can't teach. This is were it gets difficult with religion as everyone has a different view point
Religion teaching homophobic etc etc teachings shouldn't be allowed. It is time religion (mainly religious books) caught up with what year it is
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I agree. As I said teachings around how old the earth is, if evolution is true, if there is a God and so on are fine. Different viewpoints however should not include explicit violence, rape and inequality in schools. When anyone is under the age of 16/18, they are a child, so like it or not what adults have the ability to teach to them should be restricted in schools. Even private schools, as some of it are literally illegal actions.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/education/2016/03/ofsted-scrutinising-faith-schools-properly
At least you have an apt username.
I'm also going to leave this here without further comment...
I'm not fond of religious schools, especially in this day and age the concept is out-dated - to me at least, that's my perspective. I think I'd ease a little if several schools weren't funded by Wahhabist and Salafist investors because of what? Get distrusted and scrutinised outside of school, then go to school and get taught that you're distrusted and scrutinised, along with the addition of these angry and hateful ideas that you're taught are correct because you see these teachers as the only ones you trust, to go back outside and have the distrust and dislike towards you reinforced and soon you fall in line with what you're taught at school because you're isolated and cut off and you dig deeper into it all.
It's a vicious circle.
It's a vicious circle.
I really hope you'll do some self reflection. I don't know if you'll see this, but this is for anyone who might share your perspective.
The book mentioned in the article, Women Who Deserve to go to Hell, contains some pretty reprehensible ideas; none of which belong in a school setting. If these ideas truly aren't representative of your interpretation—perhaps even the majority interpretation—of the Quran, then you needn't get defensive about it. In fact, I believe you especially should fight back hard against these practices. Because whether or not your interpretations are the same, Islam suffers as a whole. You can't separate the two by claiming no true Scotsman.
I'm pretty sure there are many Kuwaitis here XD
Yeah, the cursing thing is what I have found when I read the 6 Hadith books. Unless there is something I am missing.
User warned: unfair and uncalled for accusation of white supremacy towards a PoC
Faith-based schools need to go, Saudi Arabia have been funding a lot of those for a few decades now and nobody has said anything about it, the main reason being that racists are the ones that keep bringing it up to push their xenophobic agenda, but it is a problem that needs to be addressed. It's true that other religions do it, but that community needs to address it too.
Those schools are one of the main ideological incubators that turn people into extremists and not just misogynists.
"Western Values".
I didn't know we had white supremacists here.
Those schools are one of the main ideological incubators that turn people into extremists and not just misogynists.
"Western Values".
I didn't know we had white supremacists here.
This is a big reason why I left the religion. I told the imam that my dad was hitting my mom and he said that he was just guiding her to be more religious and that was his duty as a husband. From there everything was tainted for me - the separation at prayer times, the burqa, the role of a mother. Everything felt like a manifestation of toxic masculinity backed by the culture and religion.
No faith schools of any religion. Kids should be socialised in a manner decided upon by the nation, equally and fairly.
I'm not religious and it might be an edge case, but the catholic high school I went to, religious education was probably the most useful subject we took. We were taught how to write university level essays, critically evaluate texts, examine the problematic ways the Bible was recorded, we looked at cults and different religions and also delved into the ethics of abortion (which we could argue for or against) and had pro-contraception sex education. The "religious" retreats we went on once a year, involved small groups of our grade in which we mapped out your entire life so far and shared personal stories, it was incredibly eye opening and moving - and in our final year, the school got our parents to write a letter to us, which for people who's parents weren't usually very open or supportive, it was invaluable (I probably saw 90% of my grade cry) . These were experiences that the other secular schools did not have, so I think religious education can be incredibly powerful, if it's regulated and inclusive.
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Damn, that being a book around children/taught to children is frightening. Reading through it as it's in English
A "women who complains against her husband every now and then is one of hell" and finshing with "Men should divorce such women". Excuse the blasphemy, but, Jesus Christ. Whatever school(s) has that book around children/being taught to them should be sorted out asap.
To be clear I'm not saying you as an adult shouldn't be able to buy this book and read it if you so please, but content like this should NOT be around children coming into your educational care. This is straight up indoctrination of abuse against women, not empowerment for these girls to grow and mature into women who can make their own minds up, and know what their legal rights are.
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User has been banned (1 week): lies about their identity in order to justify questionable statements.
As a black guy I find this quite offensive, but what the hell - it's a forum, used to folks dogpiling on me for not being super liberal. By western values I'm referring to accepting homosexuality, treating women as equal and respecting the age of consent. Think a lot of folks take these for granted and don't realize the risk religions (all religions) can pose to them if they are allowed to teach extremism to tomorrows generation.
"Western values" is racist even if they meant it in that context, secularism isn't a "Western value", and it assumes supremacy of a particular group of people over the backwards "Eastern Values". Look up the origins of orientalism.
The term itself is racist even if it's not intentional. I would often be called "Westernized" when people see me, what does that even mean? That I'm one of the good ones that managed to overcome my inherently barbaric culture and adopted the superior western culture?
you should probably pick up your personal grievances with the person who originally spurred your ire
You can choose to interpret it that way, but that doesn't make it a fact. You putting words in people's mouths talking about inherently barbaric cultures etc.
Sorry, I was talking about the poster I origonally quoted and not you.
It's strange because religiously funded/motivated scholars were a major bastion of education and preservation of knowledge in some parts of the world when nobody else that wasn't filthy rich cared.
Men are cursed if they cheat, drink alcohol or do whatever thats forbidden. Hope you do realise it's the punishment for acting against Islamic rules/values for both men and women.
Aside from that I always get this feeling that with Islam, westerners (I consider myself one most of the time) see it as a black and white thing. For instance yes there are probably Islamic men that hold their wife's (incorrectly) accountable if she does not want to have sex with them. However in most cases the reasoning for the wife is taken into consideration just like in any relationship. In any relationship both for men and women if the partner does not want to have seks, this might lead to issues. Just want to clarify that aside from extremes wife's aren't treated as badly as the West imagines. It just feels like extremes are highlighted and unfortunately extremes always posses negatives.
I was raised Muslim and practice Islam daily. Never have I been thought these extreme views on woman. Just that every person should be treated with dignity (this is from an Islamic standpoint, not just basis values).
'Western values' is racist now? I'm getting too old to keep up with this stuff.
I always considered western values referring to the pillars of our civilizations. i.e. innocent until proven guilty, freedom of speech, and equal rights etc. Feel like folks are just incredibly lazy when it comes to debating this topic and like to find any excuse to invalidate opposing argument by labeling them as a a supremacist, nazi, racist etc.
Is 'Western culture' the correct term to be using? (serious question).
It is true , also women only get half the inheritance of men and their testimony in court equals only half of a man's testimony.
People need to accept and discuss objective criticisms of islam and not brush it off and attribute it to islamophobia .
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Because it isn't all of them going as far as others, and the religious communities often do prefer to send their children to schools based around their faiths. That shouldn't be taken away, however, serious double standards should not apply in schools when we're dealing with children. Books like the above (Women Deserve to go to Hell) would not be allowed to be taught/referenced to children in public schools, or it would bring such a public shitstorm it would get overturned, so it shouldn't be allowed to happen here.
The distinction between child and adult here is key. Children often have further protection/care under the eyes of the law due to their ages and susceptibility to be influenced/abused. Once they're adults they can buy and read many problematic books, including Mein Kampf if they want https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/817224164X/?tag=e100-21
Or they can still buy such a book as a child if they have an Amazon account and a means of paying. Them doing that in their personal life is different from an educational institute providing/referencing/teaching from certain books.
When they're pre-adult and being taught in what is supposed to be an educational environment, such explicit teachings of violence, rape, misoginy and bigotry not only being okay, but being celebrated, should be investigated and often stopped. It is tantamount to child abuse in my opinion due to the power dynamics in play (educator teaching a child).
"Western Supremacy" isn't a new term, look it up if you're not familiar with it or it's intentional and sometimes unnintentional dogwhistles.
I am not a westerner dude, I live in an Islamic country, and my point that they don't face punishment for that exact same act, don't shift the focus like I said that men never get punished.
So there seems to be a problem among religious schools in general. Yet,
Why single out minority faith schools. Either impose a moratorium on all faith schools or on none. Don't single out minorities
People should realize that Islam is just as deserving of criticism as Christianity
To EMM, look not all Muslim people are like that. It's mostly a cultural issue and if you believe in your own European culture strongly enough, you can overwrite the original sexist culture to strip away all the woman-hating nonsense. It will take time but if done with empathy and warmth, culture is teachable. But resorting to name-calling makes you no different than the children these people are attempting to brainwash. American is making laudable progress in this regard. There's no reason European countries can't acheive the same.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/26/us/pew-muslim-american-survey/index.html
*In 2007, just 27% of American Muslims said society should approve of homosexuality. This year, more than half (52%) said the same, a leap that surprised even scholars who study Islam in America. Likewise, 10 years ago, 57% of American Muslims said there is more than one way to interpret Islamic teachings. In 2017, 64% agreed.
*Asked about the essentials of the faith, an overwhelming percentage of Muslims, like Christians, said believing in God was most important. But issues like working for social justice (69%) and protecting the environment (62%) also scored high in the list of essentials for American Muslims.
*Muslim women are more likely than men to say it is harder to be a Muslim in the United States today (57% vs. 43%); much more likely to say Trump angers them (54% to 37%); and significantly less likely to believe that Americans are friendly towards Muslims (44% vs. 65%).
*More than 75% of American Muslims say violence can never be justified to further a religious, social or political cause. That's compared to 59% of Americans overall who said the same.
Come on. We both know there are large swaths of culture, including in Muslim countries, that hate on women.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Mecca_girls'_school_fire
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/02/world/meast/cnnheroes-jan-afghan-school/index.html
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/26/ameneh-bahrami-interview-iran-acid-attack-blinded
Were any of these girls/women treated like princesses? Of course not. Rather than pretending this isn't a problem, it's better to encourage kids to learn to treat women better because in the long-run it will result in a healthier minded society.
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Well, that is hopefully what pressure will test out. From just recently
Source: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...appeal-in-landmark-al-hijrah-ruling-zll9hchwk
If you have a school both sexes can attend, they should be treated equally and be able to mix. It spurs on good socialisation and tolerance/acceptance working and playing with the opposite sex.
I would NEVER send my own children to a single-sex school, it's incredibly damaging to socialisation, and the well-being of your child's development. However, I'm not really certain about saying they should be banned. It's another debate. From the above, if a school accepts both sexes, yes, they should be treated equally and mix. As of now if your school wants to segregate the sexes, it should be a single-sex school. It should have to fund 2 separate schools for boys and girls under the one name if it's desperate to do this. Not have one school and segregate within.
If the courts are going to tackle the above then it's time they start tackling teaching material/the teachers responsible as well. Teaching it's okay to beat your wife, and that there is no such thing as consent, violates laws.
Not really surprised considering the views of some of my Muslim family members in fact one of my cousin paid to do a marriage course, waste of her money if you ask me, and the booklet she got was riddled with outdated views and this is the problem with religion as a whole. It is deeply embedded with outdated views due to the nature of when they were founded.
Sorry to quote you in this Kirblar but as a mod who watched this thread, I don't agree how the two above post only got a warning, which is basically a slap on the wrist, for their posts which is just incredibly toxic towards an entire religion.
They should have gotten a ban at least.
Jeez, the imam is just a fool, but yeah the whole segregation between the sexes is just stupid and outdated, heck for some baffling reason men and woman aren't allow to hold hands.
Sorry to quote you in this Kirblar but as a mod who watched this thread, I don't agree how the two above post only got a warning, which is basically a slap on the wrist, for their posts which is just incredibly toxic towards an entire religion.
They should have gotten a ban at least.
Jeez, the imam is just a fool, but yeah the whole segregation between the sexes is just stupid and outdated, heck for some baffling reason men and woman aren't allow to hold hands.
Anecdotally I will tell you.
Turkish mosques are chilled out. You just go and pray. The morals they talk about are normal, every day golden rule morals you expect to hear average person talk about.
But the Pakistani mosques. Goodness sake. They start bringing in bullshit about not inter-marrying with Sikhs and Hindus, why we shouldn't celebrate Christmas, no discos, certain haircuts are not allowed and this kind of absolute shit.
Now both cultures are different. Turks are much closer to Europe and have been affected by European ideals moreso than Pakistani culture. Not to mention the disparity in wealth which makes Pakistan more backwards for that reason. So that is then affected in the way religion is taught and values are taught in the diaspora. Also there is a larger Saudi influence in the Islamic narrative of Pakistan, historical Pakistani Islam wasn't as puritan as it has become in modern times. It was much more chill and relaxed.
One of the differences is that Turkish mosques are run by the Turkish State. They are standardised, they are sanitised, they all follow the same book. It's literally illegal for them to not follow the government mandated religious morals and instructions. The Pakistani mosques are all independent institutions and some have been infected with Saudi morals.
Normal folk Islam is like normal folk Christianity or normal folk Judaism. It's just an infusion of your ethnic heritage with your family heritage, with no outside influence and religion is paid lip service but nobody really practises it to the word. But unfortunately there is a lot of outside influence ( particularly Saudi ) which is trying to push a to the letter of the law Islam which is full of this absolute nonsense.
Turkish mosques are chilled out. You just go and pray. The morals they talk about are normal, every day golden rule morals you expect to hear average person talk about.
But the Pakistani mosques. Goodness sake. They start bringing in bullshit about not inter-marrying with Sikhs and Hindus, why we shouldn't celebrate Christmas, no discos, certain haircuts are not allowed and this kind of absolute shit.
Now both cultures are different. Turks are much closer to Europe and have been affected by European ideals moreso than Pakistani culture. Not to mention the disparity in wealth which makes Pakistan more backwards for that reason. So that is then affected in the way religion is taught and values are taught in the diaspora. Also there is a larger Saudi influence in the Islamic narrative of Pakistan, historical Pakistani Islam wasn't as puritan as it has become in modern times. It was much more chill and relaxed.
One of the differences is that Turkish mosques are run by the Turkish State. They are standardised, they are sanitised, they all follow the same book. It's literally illegal for them to not follow the government mandated religious morals and instructions. The Pakistani mosques are all independent institutions and some have been infected with Saudi morals.
Normal folk Islam is like normal folk Christianity or normal folk Judaism. It's just an infusion of your ethnic heritage with your family heritage, with no outside influence and religion is paid lip service but nobody really practises it to the word. But unfortunately there is a lot of outside influence ( particularly Saudi ) which is trying to push a to the letter of the law Islam which is full of this absolute nonsense.
User was warned for disingenuous arguments. Ethnocentrism is more nuanced than this.
The thing is, liberals don't even see the Muslim misogynistic culture as being bad because you know, they're 'brown' people and to criticize them would be racist. Only white people do bad things.
That's good.
I don't necessarily hate the idea of a religious school on paper, but when stuff like this is taught, or when Christan schools in the US say evolution is fake, I think all that should be illegal.
Except that they do, men in the family have to visit their sisters and give them money each week or month of their income, women can also decide if they want to have as much money as their brothers. My uncles wife lost her father this year and got as much as her brothers.
Where did you even hear about women being half as equal in courts? Because that is false if you are not living in a wahabi/salafi community.
These moments are teachable. Facilitating us vs. them mentalities is exactly what we don't need to do. I've found that ERA is far more forgiving in this regard than GAF for the time being. It's better than that we use these moments to post proof and evidence of our stances, if not for these specific users, then for all others to see and learn from.
By saying "Did anyone seriously think Muslims would change their culture upon entering Europe?" you are promoting the narrative that this kind of Islam is what these peoples ancestors practised. In most cases it isn't. In most cases peoples family histories were not religious, it was just a populist identity that came from their ethnic heritage.
A lot of this modern day Islamist Fundamentalism is a global ( often Saudi led ) phenomenon. It's got nothing to do with their own ethnic or familial cultures.