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Eolz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,601
FR
Really says something when people are trying to argue she doesn't look like a stripper cus of "accessories". She has a weird thong thing, a hella lot of bare skin, and a weird form of stockings and suspenders. If it looks and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

Accessories as in there's in a difference between chains, large hoop earrings and stripper heels compared to what Pyra is wearing. A "hella lot" less of bare skin than that picture, regular stockings and less suspenders than a Nomura design.
I hope that you don't use that "If it looks and quacks like a duck, it's a duck." argument IRL out loud.

I'm not even saying she "looks like a stripper", that's a phrase I'm trying to stay away from. I'm just very specifically saying that a lot of the designs pull elements from what you could reasonably expect to find in a fetishwear shop. That's not any sort of judgement about that kind of outfit (lets not get into my personal sexual interests), I'm saying that it detracts from these character designs, and many character designs in many games. It communicates something about what the developers think I want to see in contexts that are ill-fitting, immersion breaking, and often crass feeling
No, I'm trying not to make a joke about how she looks like a sex worker. I'm trying to make an argument about how, regardless of how I feel about these sorts of outfits in contexts where they are appropriate, they are tonally jarring and actively offputting in my sprawling mass market JRPG about friendship anime boy and his quest to save the world

I'm sorry, but you exactly implied that she looked like a stripper (edit: and now doubling down with sex worker, your words).
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,398
I tried to catch up to this thread but I'm confused as to why we're taking apart statements about "looking like a stripper" (or whatever) now.
 

Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,549
In defense of XB2, those are all rare blades, so it's super hard to get any one of them and they don't show up in any cutscenes except for the one when you unlock them. They're a minor part of the game that unfortunately got a ton of pre-release marketing for some stupid reason.
Wanting to promote the contributions of the guest artists they got to sign on for the game is a "stupid reason" somehow? Being critical of how the Blade designs turned out is one thing, not expecting them to highlight the work of their collaborators is another.
 

Eolz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,601
FR
No, I said that she looks like she's wearing fetishwear. People who aren't strippers wear those. Its not my fault if you made that connection

You're the first one that talked about sex workers, and again, there's a big difference in both outfits (that I already pointed out in my two previous posts). Let's not be disingenuous please.
Especially when you're the one that pushed to that connection by comparing a fetish model (unless you can say where you found that picture) and a typical anime character.

edit:
I tried to catch up to this thread but I'm confused as to why we're taking apart statements about "looking like a stripper" (or whatever) now.
It's just on the past page, false analogy where it's easy to see the ridiculous comparison by clicking on both links.

edit 2 :
they're extremely similar what are you talking about
(that I already pointed out in my two previous posts)
 

anyprophet

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
941
You're the first one that talked about sex workers, and again, there's a big difference in both outfits (that I already pointed out in my two previous posts). Let's not be disingenuous please.
Especially when you're the one that pushed to that connection by comparing a fetish model (unless you can say where you found that picture) and a typical anime character.
they're extremely similar what are you talking about
 

incogneato

Self Requested Ban
Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,119
Who cares if a game character "looks" like a real-world stripper. In the real world, those women or men have agency to do with their bodies in the best case scenario. In video games, more often than not, male designers are dictating the clothes worn by their female characters. Because of this, the clothes they wear are doubly ridiculous and sexualized...
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
You're the first one that talked about sex workers, and again, there's a big difference in both outfits (that I already pointed out in my two previous posts). Let's not be disingenuous please.
You are literally the first person on this page or the prior one to mention strippers. It honestly wasn't even on my mind because, again, these outfits exist in a much broader context than just sex work. In my head an outfit like that is "something my partner and I buy at a store to try in the bedroom"
Especially when you're the one that pushed to that connection by comparing a fetish model (unless you can say where you found that picture) and a typical anime character.
If Pyra is your "typical anime woman" that reflects way more about anime than anything I've said in this thread
 

SchrodingerC

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,863
Dunno if this has been posted but just saw this on twitter.

zHj9ils.jpg


I generally dont mind tiddies in videogames, but bwahaha... this is pretty ridiculous.

There's just something..grotesque about her proportions. The fact that her head is smaller than her chest and how the breasts look like they are dragging the model down is just not appealing.
Also, jfc that spine curve.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Monstruous breasts aside, I hope that screenshot is from a particularly odd moment, it seems as if her back was broken (on the other hand, that wouldn't be surprising under the weight of those hopballs).

XC2 baby what is you doing? :(
 

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,608
No one should be generalizing, for example my GF loves 2B and DoA girls, while she hates Life is Strange girls (calls them plain and annoying, wanted to murder Chloe).

Girls also have different tastes and look for different things (she likes pretty/sexy characters).
Let your girlfriend make an account and speak for herself.
You attempting to speak for her is not helpful.

Also isn't that one of the things in the mod edit?
 

Eolz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,601
FR
You are literally the first person on this page or the prior one to mention strippers. It honestly wasn't even on my mind because, again, these outfits exist in a much broader context than just sex work. In my head an outfit like that is "something my partner and I buy at a store to try in the bedroom"

If Pyra is your "typical anime woman" that reflects way more about anime than anything I've said in this thread

I agree on the second part of your answer.
For the first part, sorry for the wall of quotes, but I'm not a fan of being accused on something when there's a bad argument in the first place:
I said
(...)
It sounds like those posts comparing this character to a stripper in another thread.
Followed by your
Pyra is also literally in a 2 inch microskirt
(when it's "literally" not the case)
Then this post was the issue:
Really says something when people are trying to argue she doesn't look like a stripper cus of "accessories". (...) If it looks and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
Leading you to post those weird defensive posts:
I'm not even saying she "looks like a stripper", that's a phrase I'm trying to stay away from. I'm just very specifically saying that a lot of the designs pull elements from what you could reasonably expect to find in a fetishwear shop.
No, I'm trying not to make a joke about how she looks like a sex worker.

Anyhow, after this bad "who said stripper first?!" discussion, back on topic: there's some parts wrong with those designs, which again, are more an issue with the typical anime culture at the moment rather than the whole outfit. Again, better to have a good discussion with no logical fallacies rather than several pages of people mocking/dismissing other people's arguments.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,398
I must repeat: so what if someone literally said "she looks like a stripper"? Why is this even a problem to begin with?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
I don't really think anyone here is saying that they're being *forced* to. But on the other end, I think we need to be careful not to assume that everything someone does is solely a product of their own desires, and that's especially so if it's their job, their livelihood. This *is* commercial art – it's a product and it has a target demographic to appeal to. I have seen Kinuko's work that she draws in her spare time (pretty disturbing by the way... naked dismembered hypersexualised women...) which certainly raises a possible complicating factor; if I was able to see it because she tweets it, then it's not private art and she may not be doing it solely for her own enjoyment. Plenty of professional artists create non-commissioned art to add to their portfolio and promote their brand.

I'm not saying this *isn't* something she and others enjoy creating, but really, is everything you do at work and at home to pad your resumé and get work because you personally enjoy it, or is it sometimes because you think your boss or hiring managers (your audience) will enjoy it?

I would assume things that are seen as not okay to the public at large wouldn't be added to one's resume, at least those that have any aspirations of working in the mainstream scene. I would use both Kinuko and Shadman as examples here. They both draw highly disturbing art, some of which would flat out get them arrested in certain European countries. And yet, one actually did break into the mainstream while the other does whatever the hell he wants. If that wasn't what they wanted to do, then they're potentially diluting their brand for no reason.

Also, it seems like Wamusato Haru engages in a bit of self-objectification too, definitely going above and beyond what's required for her job. How a woman sees herself will definitely affect her art, and how she sees herself is also largely a product of her culture. You say she's not doing it for the money, and I'm sure that's true to an extent, but do you think she'd still be drawing the same things for her private enjoyment in, say, Victorian England?

I get what you're saying, but I feel like this is a much broader discussion that's almost philosophical with no tangible solution. We are all ultimately products of a number of external societal factors that we have no control over. These factors do change with the times, but once their set for any given individual, it is EXTREMELY difficult to "deprogram". In the case of kinks, it may flat out be impossible. So the discussion shifts over from how can we change and into "better luck with the next batch". In the case of Japan, their stringent gender roles lead artists to both embrace and subvert that aspect of their culture, which may be a reason "gender-bender" is such a popular tag. And that's just one example.

Then we get into the very iffy reality that is those who don't want it to change, not for a lack of progressive views but for their own desires in a world they see as divorced from mainstream culture. And really, I can't blame them. This is very much a historical hindsight thing and impossible to approach from an unbiased viewpoint when living in the present. 300 years from now, assuming we haven't blown ourselves up, certain types of porn may be considered even more demeaning than it is now and it would be social suicide if not flat out illegal to reveal one's interest in that type of porn. For people born into that time period, they won't see anything wrong with that.

Kind of went off on a tangent here and I feel like I had some kind of conclusion in mind, but I must have forgotten it....
 

Eolz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,601
FR
I must repeat: so what if someone literally said "she looks like a stripper"? Why is this even a problem to begin with?
Sorry for the quote, but since I already replied:
Because:
1) that was the point that Mezentine pushed
2) that's not the case, and a discussion is always better when nobody is using logical fallacies.
That discussion is over on my side, as said in my post above yours.
I know you're a mod, but would appreciate if you were looking at all sides and posts, and don't do like some other posters here dismissing or even joking about counter-arguments, which is the issue I had.
If someone says a character looks like a stripper (which Mezentine insists (s?)he didn't), it'd be better to bring arguments for that rather than just putting two links and saying that it's the case with no explanation.

edit: to clarify further and as a tl;dr: the problem is pushing something without arguments, then complaining about counter-arguments. The "stripper" part is just what the problem was based on.
And it's perfectly in line with the mod edits in the OP btw.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
Sorry for the quote, but since I already replied:

That discussion is over on my side, as said in my post above yours.
I know you're a mod, but would appreciate if you were looking at all sides and posts, and don't do like some other posters here dismissing or even joking about counter-arguments, which is the issue I had.
If someone says a character looks like a stripper (which Mezentine insists (s?)he didn't), it'd be better to bring arguments for that rather than just putting two links and saying that it's the case with no explanation.

edit: to clarify further and as a tl;dr: the problem is pushing something without arguments, then complaining about counter-arguments. The "stripper" part is just what the problem was based on.
And it's perfectly in line with the mod edits in the OP btw.
Absolutely no-one was talking about her looking like a stripper until, again, you brought up a conversation "from another thread". If your immediate association of that kind of outfit is "that's what a stripper wears" that is your problem, not mine. From my perspective you are the one who is weirdly defensive, you misinterpreted what I was saying and doubled down

EDIT: Sorry I just think its super important that critique of these type of designs not be "because they look like strippers and that's bad"
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
I'll grant you that I'm not very familiar with anime or JRPGs, but I'm inclined to believe that most depictions of hot springs and bath houses in them are intended for cheap titillation rather than honest depictions of Japanese society.

It's both. Bath houses and hot springs are a lot more than tropes in Japanese society. There's actually an anime/manga about a time travelling Roman that goes pretty in-depth on this.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,398
Since no one is trying to shame sex workers by those comparisons, I'm inclined to think this is a complete non-issue. :shrug:

There's actually an anime/manga about a time travelling Roman that goes pretty in-depth on this.
Thermae Romae! I haven't read the manga, but I saw the movies and they are hilarious. I love those movies. And there's no "anime-like" hot spring fanservice shit either that I recall. The manga was written/drawn by a woman, I believe?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
It absolutely can but I don't think any of us know nearly enough about the artist in question to have that conversation here. It would be different if we were discussing a prominent auteur female filmmaker who's work we could more fully analyze

Most of the female artists we're talking about are auteurs that very rarely answer to anyone above them. The doujin scene is essentially 100% auteur-based. And while it's not quite to that extent with manga in general (them pesky editors), the industry is a lot more "creator-owned" than the western comic industry.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
I apologize for any sort of derail. I maintain that Pyra's outfit, many of the rare blade outfits, and increasingly many designs in contemporary JRPGs, are aesthetically derived from "fetishwear" styles, with particular emphasis on combinations of heels, thigh-highs, micro skirts or thongs, and mostly exposed (or highly contoured) breasts, and I don't think its a hyperbolic comparison
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
Huge but inexplicably well-supported breasts? Lingerie-esque skin patterns? A claw on the heel that doubles as a fucking high heel? And a bunny motif on top of all of that? You'd have a hard time explaining how it's not ridiculous.

I wouldn't use "not finding it ridiculous" as an argument, but rather "ridiculous things can be attractive too". Personally, I find ridiculously over-designed stuff visually appealing in general. As far as art attraction goes, I find abnormal pupils extremely attractive, and I think many would consider that ridiculous. Art takes away the limits of reality and some are going to find attractive what isn't possible in the real world. There wouldn't be a million art-only fetishes like vore otherwise.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
I wouldn't use "not finding it ridiculous" as an argument, but rather "ridiculous things can be attractive too". Personally, I find ridiculously over-designed stuff visually appealing in general. As far as art attraction goes, I find abnormal pupils extremely attractive, and I think many would consider that ridiculous. Art takes away the limits of reality and some are going to find attractive what isn't possible in the real world. There wouldn't be a million art-only fetishes like vore otherwise.
Okay set aside the question of "is it wrong for this design to exist", do you find any sort of tonal problem with this design, and similar such designs, in a game such as Xenoblade 2, based on everything I've seen about it and know about its general tone and possible themes from the previous two titles?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
Okay set aside the question of "is it wrong for this design to exist", do you find any sort of tonal problem with this design, and similar such designs, in a game such as Xenoblade 2, based on everything I've seen about it and know about its general tone and possible themes from the previous two titles?

I can't comment on that because I haven't played XB2 yet and don't know if I will because of the combat system, but it's not something I find out of place in a Takashiki game. The art style changed, not the pandering elements.

I spoke about this in the objective design thread that I find a lot of value in contradictory tones. Whether it be the addition of cheesecake pandering in serious scenes and how that ties into the greater narrative or at least the interpretation of it; it's something I find appealing in general. One of my favorite franchises ever is a big bucket of intentional contradictions.
 

fundogmo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,131
That doesn't make it any less ridiculous or stupid.
But you see, this is antithetical to this reoccurring sentiment...

In video games, more often than not, male designers are dictating the clothes worn by their female characters. Because of this, the clothes they wear are doubly ridiculous and sexualized...

...in which case, the deliver creative choices of a female artist are marginalized away to fit the projection of someone who doesn't care for the designs. This is especially troubling when someone doubles down and attributes it to internalized misogyny, as if deliberately creating an exaggerated caricature is a evidence of social hatred rather than creative freedom.
 

Kikujiro

Member
Oct 27, 2017
906
I apologize for any sort of derail. I maintain that Pyra's outfit, many of the rare blade outfits, and increasingly many designs in contemporary JRPGs, are aesthetically derived from "fetishwear" styles, with particular emphasis on combinations of heels, thigh-highs, micro skirts or thongs, and mostly exposed (or highly contoured) breasts, and I don't think its a hyperbolic comparison

You didn't make any hyperbolic comparison and I agree with you, a lot of this otaku-pandering outfits are clearly based on outfits you see in porn videos, then you add the camera shots and the jiggling and you know what they are going for, which is not artistic integrity.
I watched plenty of anime in my youth, Cowboy Bebop, Wolf's Rain, Samurai Champloo, Dragon Ball, Trigun, Patlabor, FMA, Hokuto no Ken, Saint Seiya and in no way Pyra is a typical anime character, she looks more like someone you would find in a hentai anime.

The Baten Kaitos stuff posted above is gorgeous, why can't they make another game with that style?
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,251
I wouldn't use "not finding it ridiculous" as an argument, but rather "ridiculous things can be attractive too". Personally, I find ridiculously over-designed stuff visually appealing in general. As far as art attraction goes, I find abnormal pupils extremely attractive, and I think many would consider that ridiculous. Art takes away the limits of reality and some are going to find attractive what isn't possible in the real world. There wouldn't be a million art-only fetishes like vore otherwise.

I'm not trying to conflate "ridiculous" with "unattractive." If you like it, for any reason, that is 100% okay. Just be understand why some people may find it ridiculous or, in cases such as these, problematic.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
Wow it's so interesting you bring that up! I'm watching Made in Abyss now, at the suggestion of my friend. I really enjoy the mystery, but as you said, there are some sexual elements with very young children to it that I find are detracting from my enjoyment. So far it's not enough to make me stop watching (unlike Elfen Lied), but it is affecting my ability to immerse myself, and just... relax enough to let this vision of a world wash over me. I find myself wary of what they might show next.

Assuming they get far enough, season 2 of Made in Abyss will have stuff that makes you drop it unfortunately. The most recent chapter was essentially hentai.

Heck, one of the more progressive animated series ever done, Steven Universe, was created by an artist who used to draw erotic fan-art.

Not just erotic fan-art, erotic fan-art of underage characters.
 

PCPace

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,841
Alabama
That's what I wanted to touch on earlier - the fact that the way the characters are dressed is seemingly completely divorced from their characterization, in a way that can pull you out of the experience if you stop to actually question it all. Why is she wearing this outfit, and why is no one pointing out the weirdness of it all when no one else (that isn't a rare blade) is dressed that way? It's jarring and is quite revealing of the developers' priorities in that regard.

I'd disagree that her design is divorced from characterization. The entire crux of the character from what I can gather so far is that the antagonists see her strictly as an object to be taken advantage of and used because of her very nature, while the protagonists fight against that idea and consider her to have full personhood and want to help her acheive her own goals.

The actions of both are not directly related to her appearance, but her appearance in and of itself is thematically very much in sync with that idea. You can view her as an object due to the way she is drawn or as a character due to who she is and what she does. If that is distracting, it fits very much with the internal conflict the protagonist drivers have with needing to use blades as tools while wanting to view them as friends and individuals with full rights of self determination.

Characters behaving lecherously isn't needed to further drive that home, and I think would detract from Pyra as a character. (though for all I know this could happen later, I'm only on chapter 3)
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
Fantastic post. And Kliklik's examples are indeed great. Posters like Pablo Mesa and Velezcora need to exit this thread.

It's a discussion board. People are free to go against the grain of the consensus. I've been doing it for days now in this thread and there hasn't been any problems (or at least I hope there haven't, I imagine some people may have reported my posts).
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
How are we defining extremely small? Because Fire Emblem: Fates was the 6th best selling game in 2015 in Japan, and P5 would be around the same when you combine its PS4+PS3 numbers. We aren't talking about Idea Factory games here. Both of these games sold at least half a million units in Japan. And P5 is the best selling entry in the franchises history there (as well as everywhere else). So the market for it is actually growing.
For some perspective, Japan is a country of 127 million people. In 2007, the 29th best-selling game sold half a million units in Japan, whereas in 2015, games that sold at least half a million units shrunk to just those in the top 10. (2007) (2015) The 79th best selling game in 2015 sold 85,000 units. In 2007, the 79th best selling game sold 208,000 units.

The number of sales, and the diversity of sales, has declined extremely sharply. The market is shrinking.

I think there's a difference between the games you're referring to, which are generally described as "otaku bait", and games like P5 and FE:A/F. Yes, they obviously have pandering elements to them, but they on some level seem balanced out enough that they don't turn people off as much as a Senran Kagura or Neptunia. Those have a hard ceiling on their sales potential whereas that doesn't seem to be the case with the games I mentioned. Even take something like Nier Automata. Obviously has a pandering elements with 2B and A2, yet it's also among the best selling character action games ever in Japan (assuming you want to put it in that genre). It's another example where it doesn't have the sorta ceiling that otaku bait games have.
It's quite obvious that a) the market for games in Japan is becoming narrower, given the upward concentration of purchasing and shrinking sales and b) who that audience is, is almost assuredly a very specific subculture, given they are big spenders, easy to exploit, and a known quantity in Japan. This is a larger trend, a shift that is hurting the games market in Japan long term.
 
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Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,398
Jesus, when you put her next to Cortana like that it really highlights how shitty she looks.
Really does, doesn't it? Cortana's last pic looks like a normal, large-chested woman. The other one looks like a newspaper caricature of what a large-chested woman looks like or something. xD
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
Really does, doesn't it? Cortana's last pic looks like a normal, large-chested woman. The other one looks like a newspaper caricature of what a large-chested woman looks like or something. xD

Totally. Cortana is sexualized, but at least she looks like an actual human being. Snow Bunny Lady looks like what would happen if you had to do a 3D model of a woman and your only reference for how we look was hentai.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,784
I'm not trying to conflate "ridiculous" with "unattractive." If you like it, for any reason, that is 100% okay. Just be understand why some people may find it ridiculous or, in cases such as these, problematic.

Oh sure. If I'm to assume other opinions don't override my own, then the opposite must be true as well. As far as "problematic" goes, well I'm often reluctant to use that in general because it's way too vague a term that is in many cases entirely subjective. Do I think what's being discussed about in this thread is problematic on its own? Not really.
 
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