I'd disagree that her design is divorced from characterization. The entire crux of the character from what I can gather so far is that the antagonists see her strictly as an object to be taken advantage of and used because of her very nature, while the protagonists fight against that idea and consider her to have full personhood and want to help her acheive her own goals.
The actions of both are not directly related to her appearance, but her appearance in and of itself is thematically very much in sync with that idea. You can view her as an object due to the way she is drawn or as a character due to who she is and what she does. If that is distracting, it fits very much with the internal conflict the protagonist drivers have with needing to use blades as tools while wanting to view them as friends and individuals with full rights of self determination.
Characters behaving lecherously isn't needed to further drive that home, and I think would detract from Pyra as a character. (though for all I know this could happen later, I'm only on chapter 3)
I didn't say anything about characters behaving lecherously. I just want someone to acknowledge it. Show some bloody concern. And maybe for her to try putting something else on, because why the fuck not?
For that matter, even if they did have a reasoning for why she can't just... wear something better, that very same reasoning would just be an excuse for blatant pandering anyway. The Thermian Argument is not something I'm going to accept. However, at the very least, it would've been a lot better than just throwing it in there without any acknowledgement of how weird it is in-context.
It's funny, too, since the outfit actively fights against the character's own story since it detracts from any sense that she actually has any agency of her own. It's not a good look.
Nope, I specifically said caricature. Not all cartoony stylizations are that extreme, when it becomes ridiculous that's when I call it a caricature. Here's another example of a large-chested woman who is cartoony/stylized, but not caricatural.
I didn't say anything about characters behaving lecherously. I just want someone to acknowledge it. Show some bloody concern. And maybe for her to try putting something else on, because why the fuck not?
For that matter, even if they did have a reasoning for why she can't just... wear something better, that very same reasoning would just be an excuse for blatant pandering anyway. The Thermian Argument is not something I'm going to accept. However, at the very least, it would've been a lot better than just throwing it in there without any acknowledgement of how weird it is in-context.
It's funny, too, since the outfit actively fights against the character's own story since it detracts from any sense that she actually has any agency of her own. It's not a good look.
Anyhow, after this bad "who said stripper first?!" discussion, back on topic: there's some parts wrong with those designs, which again, are more an issue with the typical anime culture at the moment rather than the whole outfit. Again, better to have a good discussion with no logical fallacies rather than several pages of people mocking/dismissing other people's arguments.
Why should we dismiss it as "anime culture", it's a very bad design even from my standpoint, as an anime fan.
Danganronpa is like "the" anime serie and their chara design (which actually ARE sexualized like that girl in swimsuit) are like that :
Which, same, IS sexualized (like with those mini skirt) but not nearly as much as that Xenoblade 2 girl. Even Fates stuff (which is 18+ stuff) don't go that far... I can only think of Blazblue being worst to be honest. (Why ARC System Works, why Mu-12...)
Most time than not, fan service is handled by the girl personalities and action more than her "base costume"... So no, it's not "typical anime culture" at all, it's quite specific... Not that i defend that culture too much about how they handle female mind you...
Nope, I specifically said caricature. Not all cartoony stylizations are that extreme, when it becomes ridiculous that's when I call it a caricature. Here's another example of a large-chested woman who is cartoony/stylized, but not caricatural.
One relatively common trend in anime or anime games is dressing cute girls in fanservicey outfits and making a big deal out of how embarrassed and/or uncomfortable they are with it, which has so many gross implications lmao
One relatively common trend in anime or anime games is dressing cute girls in fanservicey outfits and making a big deal out of how embarrassed and/or uncomfortable they are with it, which has so many gross implications lmao
One relatively common trend in anime or anime games is dressing cute girls in fanservicey outfits and making a big deal out of how embarrassed and/or uncomfortable they are with it, which has so many gross implications lmao
I think one of the first times I ever got actually mad about this stuff is when, in Bravely Default, there was a plot point about a character being very uncomfortable in a certain outfit as part of a scheme. The rest of the cast correctly decided not to make her wear it, and changed the plan instead, aaaaaaaand then Square went and sold it as DLC you could dress her in
I didn't say anything about characters behaving lecherously. I just want someone to acknowledge it. Show some bloody concern. And maybe for her to try putting something else on, because why the fuck not?
For that matter, even if they did have a reasoning for why she can't just... wear something better, that very same reasoning would just be an excuse for blatant pandering anyway. The Thermian Argument is not something I'm going to accept. However, at the very least, it would've been a lot better than just throwing it in there without any acknowledgement of how weird it is in-context.
It's funny, too, since the outfit actively fights against the character's own story since it detracts from any sense that she actually has any agency of her own. It's not a good look.
This...actually happens eventually, but it's a monkey paw situation, because it happens as an attempt to lampshade hang after the first completely rote anime sex joke in the game. The camera is not nearly as respectful of Mythra as it is of Pyra, and she's become an almost immediate participant in the kind of eyeroll-inducing one-off gag scene scenarios that I was surprised and impressed they never went anywhere near with Pyra.
They were just waiting for a tsundere who they could have shout "pervert!" and throw things.
Ayup.
At least it kicked in just as the plot got its real hooks in?
For some reason the one on the right makes me laugh until I have tears in my eyes. It's so ridiculous and over the top. The breasts, the spine, the ass, the weirdly big hands and wrists, the bunny tail, the bunny ponytails, she looks grotesque.
I think one of the first times I ever got actually mad about this stuff is when, in Bravely Default, there was a plot point about a character being very uncomfortable in a certain outfit as part of a scheme. The rest of the cast correctly decided not to make her wear it, and changed the plan instead, aaaaaaaand then Square went and sold it as DLC you could dress her in
Dude. Duuuuuuude. Don't even get me started on Bravely Default. I was so mad about that game and its treatment of female characters when I played it that I could've written entire books about it lmao
One relatively common trend in anime or anime games is dressing cute girls in fanservicey outfits and making a big deal out of how embarrassed and/or uncomfortable they are with it, which has so many gross implications lmao
One relatively common trend in anime or anime games is dressing cute girls in fanservicey outfits and making a big deal out of how embarrassed and/or uncomfortable they are with it, which has so many gross implications lmao
I had to go back to that with Japanese and see whether they were localizing "Moe moe kyun!" and they were. They literally can't even come up with their own phrases when they pull this shit out of the "jokes that worked before so make them again" book.
The game could've stood on its own without this stuff, it's jarringly out of line with the actual tone of the narrative proper. That makes it so much worse than if it was the kind of Anime-ass Anime that this kind of stuff would fit in.
EDIT:
*plays three more minutes*
Welp, camera's done avoiding Pyra too now. Rex has been awoken as a straight male anime protagonist.
Why should we dismiss it as "anime culture", it's a very bad design even from my standpoint, as an anime fan.
Danganronpa is like "the" anime serie and their chara design (which actually ARE sexualized like that girl in swimsuit) are like that :
Stuff like Atelier is more like this :
Which, same, IS sexualized (like with those mini skirt) but not nearly as much as that Xenoblade 2 girl. Even Fates stuff (which is 18+ stuff) don't go that far... I can only think of Blazblue being worst to be honest. (Why ARC System Works, why Mu-12...)
Most time than not, fan service is handled by the girl personalities and action more than her "base costume"... So no, it's not "typical anime culture" at all, it's quite specific... Not that i defend that culture too much about how they handle female mind you...
She's following a loli design though, so I guess it isn't as noticeable...
There is definitely a lot of tropes reused in those characters that you can see in other anime-related franchises, be it in games or on tv. I'm not necessarily against that, but the body proportions definitely play a role in this being noticed.
That and the fact that most anime games are niche and most people don't care about those obviously. If Xenoblade 2 (or Fire Emblem Fates, or #FE, etc) was a niche game published by a small publisher like Marvelous (nothing against them, love them), I doubt that there would have been that much of a reaction (for better and for worse)...
Assuming they get far enough, season 2 of Made in Abyss will have stuff that makes you drop it unfortunately. The most recent chapter was essentially hentai.
I think one of the first times I ever got actually mad about this stuff is when, in Bravely Default, there was a plot point about a character being very uncomfortable in a certain outfit as part of a scheme. The rest of the cast correctly decided not to make her wear it, and changed the plan instead, aaaaaaaand then Square went and sold it as DLC you could dress her in
Yup. See also: Persona 5. And the Xeno- series as a whole, too, I guess, since they're always about breaking free of the eternal recurrence...yet themselves are increasingly bogged down with fan-pandering.
Saying that, speaking as a writer, there's always heavy pressure to give people what they want, especially when you're writing in a specific genre or for a dedicated fanbase. Ignore their expectations and you risk pissing them off big time - fandom, especially of the geek variety, is immensely resistant to change.
Hey guys, I tried my best to explain some people's perspective, including my own. And as expected people either swipe it to the side, saying "Well I like the design" (as if that is supposed to be a debate ender), or saying something is wrong with me (Including one saying I'm basically just a bitter old conservative man who couldn't get a woman).
Some people want what they want, and some (Not all, some are very understanding) just don't care. They never could even acknowledge how it narratively goes against literally everything we know about her character, making her look even more stupid as a result. But apparently narrative critical thinking like that doesn't suit them for discussion in a game that is "Narrative focused".
I tried to discuss perspective, and I received eyeball rollings
The thing is: this topic enters so much in the private sphere that we can't generalise, we can't easily find easy explanations, and defending either point of view will result in criticism. Some people said to me recently: "whatever you are going to say, some will praise you, some other will criticise you". And to be fair, that's also fine as long as criticism remains respectful.
Yup. See also: Persona 5. And the Xeno- series as a whole, too, I guess, since they're always about breaking free of the eternal recurrence...yet themselves are increasingly bogged down with fan-pandering.
Saying that, speaking as a writer, there's always heavy pressure to give people what they want, especially when you're writing in a specific genre or for a dedicated fanbase. Ignore their expectations and you risk pissing them off big time - fandom, especially of the geek variety, is immensely resistant to change.
You're not wrong. It's just annoying to have to put up with these kinds of gags when they do happen to get to the meat of the Takahashi plot, because goddamn is that ever starting to peek through and assert itself now. Like, it's not going to make me stop playing the game, my tolerance is way too high for it at this point. I'll roll my eyes and muddle through like I did with Persona 5's many missteps. It's just such a shame. If I wanted to watch a trashy fanservice anime I'd watch a trashy fanservice anime, you know?
Still gonna riot if they ruin Morag though. The possibility is now distinctly higher than I previously anticipated.
I had to go back to that with Japanese and see whether they were localizing "Moe moe kyun!" and they were. They literally can't even come up with their own phrases when they pull this shit out of the "jokes that worked before so make them again" book.
The game could've stood on its own without this stuff, it's jarringly out of line with the actual tone of the narrative proper. That makes it so much worse than if it was the kind of Anime-ass Anime that this kind of stuff would fit in.
It's the way this shit never makes sense in the context of the world that gets me. Why do these fantasy worlds always follow the same freaking laws as our modern society does?
It's like Luke Skywalker walking into the Mos Eisley cantina and ordering a double cheeseburger and coke.
Not to make this entirely a "everything wrong with Xenoblade 2" thread since it does just seem like its the topic du jour, but I saw some of the cutscenes with the maid-obsessed Noppon and its nonsensical. Why are there maids in this world with aesthetics precisely matched to otaku-maid sensibilities?
Not to make this entirely a "everything wrong with Xenoblade 2" thread since it does just seem like its the topic du jour, but I saw some of the cutscenes with the maid-obsessed Noppon and its nonsensical. Why are there maids in this world with aesthetics precisely matched to otaku-maid sensibilities?
TBH, I don't understand the maid fetish Japanese media, and indeed, otaku media, has. Like, what, you seriously think a maid is going to bumble about and basically bend her ass over for you?
She's following a loli design though, so I guess it isn't as noticeable...
There is definitely a lot of tropes reused in those characters that you can see in other anime-related franchises, be it in games or on tv. I'm not necessarily against that, but the body proportions definitely play a role in this being noticed.
That and the fact that most anime games are niche and most people don't care about those obviously. If Xenoblade 2 (or Fire Emblem Fates, or #FE, etc) was a niche game published by a small publisher like Marvelous (nothing against them, love them), I doubt that there would have been that much of a reaction (for better and for worse)...
Errr, i think you want to make a point but i don't follow it ?
You're saying that this character you have put an image of is somehow as bad as the main heroine of Xenoblade 2 ?... BEcause as much as i want to see it, i don't really.
I mean, i'm not defending Atelier that much since the fan service is at other part of the game (tentacle facepalm, horrible brainwashing of the main character which were going to be "too old"...) but here ? I don't see it.
TBH, I don't understand the maid fetish Japanese media, and indeed, otaku media, has. Like, what, you seriously think a maid is going to bumble about and basically bend her ass over for you?
Not to make this entirely a "everything wrong with Xenoblade 2" thread since it does just seem like its the topic du jour, but I saw some of the cutscenes with the maid-obsessed Noppon and its nonsensical. Why are there maids in this world with aesthetics precisely matched to otaku-maid sensibilities?
Eh, it's topical and current. There're enough people talking about everything it does right elsewhere, and boy howdy does it do, well, everything except this right.
With reference to your probably rhetorical statement, if it's not rhetorical, quoting myself from a ways back.
Anime comedy is, well, bad, by the traditional mechanics of comedy. It follows a set of extremely rigid rules from a List of Things That Are Funny and just slots them in, often with few changes. There's an extremely heavy focus on a mix of misunderstandings and something absurd happening and someone present pointing out the absurd or stupid thing. Imagine a cultural understanding of comedy born exclusively from a group of people watching "Who's on First?" and then saying "Ah, yes, so doing exactly this in structure while substituting the topic for another will make people laugh. That is what jokes are." The "female character who not only can't cook but creates absurd, ungodly monstrosities" is one of those "Who's on First?" routines that someone tried once and it made the audience laugh, so now everyone just copies it. Jokes are created by slotting things into the exact, rigid formula, and then once they work the rest of the industry copies them ad nauseum with no nuance. It gets better when they get into escalating farces that spiral into completely unfathomable absurdity, but even that's built on taking the same formula to eleven.
Seriously, pay attention to the structure of jokes in anime and JRPGs--it's almost the exact same thing every single time. The rules of both concept and delivery are so rigid that it might as well be generated by a web randomizer.
This...actually happens eventually, but it's a monkey paw situation, because it happens as an attempt to lampshade hang after the first completely rote anime sex joke in the game. The camera is not nearly as respectful of Mythra as it is of Pyra, and she's become an almost immediate participant in the kind of eyeroll-inducing one-off gag scene scenarios that I was surprised and impressed they never went anywhere near with Pyra.
They were just waiting for a tsundere who they could have shout "pervert!" and throw things.
Ayup.
At least it kicked in just as the plot got its real hooks in?
*sigh*
Literally also exactly this basically verbatim. I assume we're pacing ourselves similarly.
I just finished Chapter Three. Is this coming up in Chapter Four? Also, after finishing Chapter Three, yeah, Mythra has so many camera angles dedicated to showing her boobs and panties, even in very serious scenes. And she is far more of a walking cliche than Pyra, which is a shock.
TBH, I don't understand the maid fetish Japanese media, and indeed, otaku media, has. Like, what, you seriously think a maid is going to bumble about and basically bend her ass over for you?
I just finished Chapter Three. Is this coming up in Chapter Four? Also, after finishing Chapter Three, yeah, Mythra has so many camera angles dedicated to showing her boobs and panties, even in very serious scenes. And she is far more of a walking cliche than Pyra, which is a shock.
Mythra is the moment where the game goes both Full Takahashi (for the extreme better) and Full Anime (for the overwhelming worse). They're balancing each other out for me, personally. Maybe an edge to the Takahashi.
I think it's overcompensating with levity to try to make up for the huge dose of serious plot stuff, frankly. It'll probably calm back down, it's how these things usually go.
Not to get too pedantic but this is one of those cases where "the west" at least seems to largely have a maid fetish in mostly just a sexual way while in Japan, I will admit, the maid thing seems to go way beyond "that's hot"
There was a discussion on 2B that starts on page 79 (if you're on 50 posts per page) that you can check out. As for Bayonetta, I have issues with her but overall I like her.
Not to get too pedantic but this is one of those cases where "the west" at least seems to largely have a maid fetish in mostly just a sexual way while in Japan, I will admit, the maid thing seems to go way beyond "that's hot"
2B is....2B is frustrating. I think her design would basically be entirely "stylish" if she just had more than 70% of a skirt. The rest of her costume does mostly just look stylish, its highly feminine in a way that not everyone will enjoy but its hard to argue that the game disrespects her generally, and her actual character has a tremendous amount of agency. I don't think everyone has to like her, but I think I can put together a reasonably credible argument for why she's "okay" that isn't just "because I like that game"
But for some reason they cut a big chunk out of her skirt so you could get a good ol look at her garters, and I don't like it
I don't entirely know if I'd say that, its not like maid cafes are coded in a particularly sexual manner. Its just really jarring in the world of Xenoblade
A friend told me "Bayonetta by herself isn't insulting but the cameraman in this game sure is !" or something along the line.
I kinda liked that way of thinking.
2B, as far as i'm concerned have an awful design which, fortunately don't go too much in the way of her wonderful character.
Went to a maid cafe when I was in Japan. It's a weird amalgam of innocent and sexy with the customer getting to decide what they see it as. Like, there were parents with young kids there and no one batted an eye. It's definitely more all-encompassing than just "that's hot!"
Compared to other blatant examples, the design is pretty stylish imo, which helps a lot, because a "good" design makes stuff much easier to swallow. Like compare her design to stuff like Quiet. Both designs are clearly sexualized, but only one of them actually made an effort to make it look good, though that's subjective of course.
All the same, just because it overall looks great to me personally doesn't free it of criticism. There are stuff I would've done that I think would allow the design to draw less criticism, like her having heels for example. (I always get so annoyed when I see this nowadays.) Same for the slit, works just as well without it. Several in-game stuff I'd change as well, like the self-destruct feature being too... destructive.
I'm just going to quote my post from several pages back. Keep in mind I'm likely not the consensus here. Also, don't click on the spoilers if you're still playing:
2B is 100% justified IMO. Nier Automata (and Yoko Taro games in general) have incredibly nuanced themes of sexuality with the focus being both the androids and the machines. You can see it in the This Cannot Continue scene. You can see it in the lost little girl sidequest. You can see it in the constant association of sex and violence like
2B choking 9S
or
the "do you really want to **** 2B" directed at 9S which you would think is "fuck" but is actually "kill".
You can arguably see it in Adam and Eve's designs. It's a masterfully conflicting story of giving a sex drive to those with no way of acting on said sex drive, so they find other outlets instead. And of course contradictory internal designs don't stop at just sex, as is the case with Popola and Devola. It's a true "ashamed of words and deeds" scenario just as Kaine is. There's just a lot of layers to it, and I can see the argument that it's not good if it isn't straightforward but I just can't agree with that. Yoko Taro's work in general is fantastic on the sexualization front, or at least it is with the Nier games and Drakengard 3 (don't remember that aspect about Drakengard 1 much beyond a pedophile being a party member).
As for Yoko Taro saying the excuse is he likes sexy girls, I don't believe him. This is a trolling creator who thinks the best way to advertise a shirt is rolling on the floor while cursing out the publisher that actually allows him to make games. It's the same thing as a certain visual novel creator saying "oh yeah, this game has nothing to do with the previous ones" when that's a total lie.
Of course the way Yoko Taro's mind work is pretty alien in general, so I could be wrong here. We're talking about a guy that found amusement in his friend falling off a roof and dying because the dead friend had a boner.
I think the maid stuff is also derived from some anglophilism. Much like their love of German motifs.
It's not really all sexual too. Emma, a manga by kaoru Mori, is a fairly serious look at English maids in 19th century Britain.
Speaking of kaoru Mori, you guys and gals should read her other outstanding manga, A bride's story. It's a story set in Turkic Central Asia and also had really strong female characters.
Mythra is the moment where the game goes both Full Takahashi (for the extreme better) and Full Anime (for the overwhelming worse). They're balancing each other out for me, personally. Maybe an edge to the Takahashi.
I think it's overcompensating with levity to try to make up for the huge dose of serious plot stuff, frankly. It'll probably calm back down, it's how these things usually go.
Well, just after playing the first few minutes of Chapter Four I can see what you mean. Mythra has:
* acted like a stereotypical tsundere
* had the camera bend just right to show her panties and cleavage.
* have a scene where she sleepwalks into Rex's bed
* have said scene show Mythra's breasts are touching Rex (complete with bouncy noises)
* show her call Rex a pervert
* have the dragon and lion say "well actually, she is leaving a lot exposed"
It's kind of a bit much, especially since we're supposed to be taking Mythra a lot more seriously.
Gratitude for all the answers, people. Personally I really liked Bayonetta, both the game and the character (have not played the 2nd one though)... and am really enjoying Automata so far. I'm finding the whole situation with 2B [and 9S (and other machines)] quite... curious.
Errr, i think you want to make a point but i don't follow it ?
You're saying that this character you have put an image of is somehow as bad as the main heroine of Xenoblade 2 ?... BEcause as much as i want to see it, i don't really.
I mean, i'm not defending Atelier that much since the fan service is at other part of the game (tentacle facepalm, horrible brainwashing of the main character which were going to be "too old"...) but here ? I don't see it.
I'm not saying it's as bad, I'm just saying that if we are basing ourselves just on the level of exposed skin (which is a weird choice but some have been using that rule), Pyra is not showing anymore than this character.
My point was more in the second part of my reply anyway.
Well, just after playing the first few minutes of Chapter Four I can see what you mean. Mythra has:
* acted like a stereotypical tsundere
* had the camera bend just right to show her panties and cleavage.
* have a scene where she sleepwalks into Rex's bed
* have said scene show Mythra's breasts are touching Rex (complete with bouncy noises)
* show her call Rex a pervert
* have the dragon and lion say "well actually, she is leaving a lot exposed"
It's kind of a bit much, especially since we're supposed to be taking Mythra a lot more seriously.
