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vestan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Dec 28, 2017
24,635
The Castle was a huge inspiration on Kurayami before EA happened and changed it into SotD. There's a certain catharsis in Suda embracing SotD through
Serious Moonlight
despite it being wildly different from what his original concepts entailed.

n3gZuDl.png


Jr0qsT1.png


dqMAtcs.png


r1RM9j7.png
 
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EatChildren

Wonder from Down Under
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,029
On one hand, Shadows of the Damned is dope as hell.

On the other hand, fuck EA. Who the fuck buys into a Grasshopper game directed by Suda and based on work by Franz Kafka and is confused they dont understand it and feel the only solution is More Guns.
 

vestan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Dec 28, 2017
24,635
If anyone is interested, Suda wrote a manga called Kurayami Dance back in 2015 which is based off of the original Shadows of the Damned script. There's a few Kurayami Dance references sprinkled in TSA. It's a really good read and got translated into English recently.

You can read it here: http://www.believeinthe.net/kurayami.html
 

QuicoGil

Member
Dec 31, 2017
157
Granollers, Catalonia, Spain
If anyone is interested, Suda wrote a manga called Kurayami Dance back in 2015 which is based off of the original Shadows of the Damned script. There's a few Kurayami Dance references sprinkled in TSA. It's a really good read and got translated into English recently.

You can read it here: http://www.believeinthe.net/kurayami.html

Woah, I'm liking this a lot! Thanks, this thread's being the best thing about this week.
 

Anbec

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
983
How long is this game to beat? I haven't had the chance yet to play it but this weekend I'll be free!! (Before KH3 at least)
 

cj_iwakura

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,195
Coral Springs, FL
It wasn't just SotD. That interview had him venting about NMH2 and Killer Is Dead, where he was forced to put story on the backburner and include gigolo nonsense, respectively.
 

Blunoise

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,885
Atlanta, GA
Yea I tried everything other than getting my pro controller out which I might just have to try, just a bit of a pain because I'm laying in bed playing handheld mode and ready to sleep once I get through this level. I'll try in the am.

The joycons work in the switch menu I don't see how they can be disconnected in the game itself unless I'm missing something.
like i said its not a bug, it happens to me when i switch from using the pro controller and than taking the switch out for handheld. you have to take out the joycons connected them in the menu than out them back into the switch and they shud work in game now
 

Haze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,785
Detroit, MI
Damn I really enjoyed this game. The combat can be a little annoying at times with the lack of animation cancels but overall I liked the mix of attacks and abilities.

The writing was superb and I didn't really feel like any level overstayed it's welcome other than Life is Destroy. They're all pretty short and can be completed in little bites. My favorite parts of the game were actually the post level scenes and the Travis Strikes Back segments. I enjoyed this game more than NMH2. It doesn't play as well but it has so much more personality.

Also HOLY FUCK at the stinger
 

Dust

C H A O S
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,283
I don't plan on buying Switch anytime soon but I am interested in the story.
Does something substantial happen in this game story wise as far as potential NMH 3 is concerned? I don't mind being spoiled and I would appreciate the answer. (I played both NMH 1 and 2).
 

Deleted member 2791

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,054
I don't plan on buying Switch anytime soon but I am interested in the story.
Does something substantial happen in this game story wise as far as potential NMH 3 is concerned? I don't mind being spoiled and I would appreciate the answer. (I played both NMH 1 and 2).

NMH3 is essentially confirmed to be in development, watch this:
https://youtu.be/7jdFiDW4rS8?t=36
 

My Cow Phelps

Member
Oct 25, 2017
324
The Castle was a huge inspiration on Kurayami before EA happened and changed it into SotD. There's a certain catharsis in Suda embracing SotD through
Serious Moonlight
despite it being wildly different from what his original concepts entailed.

n3gZuDl.png


Jr0qsT1.png


dqMAtcs.png


r1RM9j7.png

This post just made me remeber of that manga called Kurayami Dance written by Suda51.

"Kurayami Dance is a manga based on the original draft for Shadows of the Damned, which was a loose adaptation of Kafka's The Castle.

Undertaker by day, biker by night, Kaido Wataru dreams of one day riding at an unsurpassed speed. But the moment he finally reaches 300 kmh, a terrible accident sends him into a 3-year coma. When Wataru awakes, he finds that the Japan he once knew is long gone. Now followed by an otherworldly creature and equipped with a mysterious transplanted eye, Wataru embarks on his very own road movie... "

i279369.png


It's currently being fan-translated.
 
OP
OP
NotLiquid

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,769
I have seen that but I am mostly curious about story beats in this particular entry. Does something happen with Badman/Travis, is Shinobu relevant etc.
In one of the Travis Strikes Back scenarios, it's strongly implied that the antagonist of the next game might be an IT business tycoon that runs an urban revitalization company that have their sights set on Santa Destroy. They supposedly have a whole bunch of future tech on them, which might play into Suda's comments about Travis going up against some Thanos-level threats, and Santa Destroy is likely to see some kind of major overhaul because of that.

vmE2zgK.png


Travis manages to piss the guy off something fierce because he beat him to an inch of his life as vengeance for him having abused Juvenile (this game's "antagonist" and the creator of the video games you explore), so the antagonist of the next game is most likely going to be partially fueled by a personal vendetta. The guy in particular is a parody of soulless business execs, and his backstory is actually one giant parody of the way EA managed to creatively stifle Shadows of the Damned (right down to him having the same surname as John Riccitiello).

On the topic of that, NMH3 may feature Garcia Hotspur, but most likely not. He shows up after the fight against Eight Hearts and lets Travis know that if he needs help he'll repay him the favor, though Travis declines at the time.

It's also mentioned early in the story that Travis had a wife and kid that he left behind (possibly Sylvia and Jeane), but mentioned "that's another story", which doesn't get resolved in this game.

Whether Badman is going to be important is unknown, they succeed in resurrecting Bad Girl, but because they had an incomplete Death Ball, she gets resurrected as a Dog. Since the actual Bad Girl will be back for the second DLC, we'll have to see if it answers any questions about whether the two of them will be important.

Shinobu is most likely going to be important because she's the one who tracks down Travis to bring him out of hiding.
 

Kas'

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,299
Bugxtra: The nostalgic rhythm of the coffee siphon of a cafe under the tracks....
Perfect for killing time while waiting at the laundromat.

The aroma brings tears to my eyes.

Is that a lovely memory?
Or is it atonement?
 

Dust

C H A O S
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,283
In one of the Travis Strikes Back scenarios, it's strongly implied that the antagonist of the next game might be an IT business tycoon that runs an urban revitalization company who have their sights set on Santa Destroy. They supposedly have a whole bunch of future tech on them, which might play into Suda's comments about Travis going up against some Thanos-level threats.

vmE2zgK.png


Travis manages to piss the guy off something fierce because he beat him to an inch of his life as vengeance for him having abused Juvenile (this game's "antagonist" and the creator of the video games you explore), so the antagonist of the next game is most likely going to be partially fueled by a personal vendetta. The guy in particular is a parody of soulless business execs, and his backstory is actually one giant parody of the way EA managed to creatively stifle Shadows of the Damned (right down to him having the same surname as John Riccitiello).

On the topic of that, NMH3 may feature Garcia Hotspur, but most likely not. He shows up after the fight against Eight Hearts and lets Travis know that if he needs help he'll repay him the favor, though Travis declines at the time.

It's also mentioned early in the story that Travis had a wife and kid that he left behind (possibly Sylvia and Jeane), but mentioned "that's another story", which doesn't get resolved in this game.

Whether Badman is going to be important is unknown, they succeed in resurrecting Bad Girl, but because they had an incomplete Death Ball, she gets resurrected as a Dog. Since the actual Bad Girl will be back for the second DLC, we'll have to see if it answers any questions about whether the two of them will be important.

Shinobu is most likely going to be important because she's the one who tracks down Travis to bring him out of hiding.
Thank you very much, this is exactly what I wanted.
Kinda cool that
Garcia gets name dropped.
 
OP
OP
NotLiquid

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,769
Thank you very much, this is exactly what I wanted.
Kinda cool that
Garcia gets name dropped.
Well, it's a little more than just a name drop.

(Big endgame spoilers)




The last game you explore turns out to be an unreleased Shadows of the Damned sequel starring Johnson as the protagonist, and it ends with a hint that there might be a real sequel some time in the future.
 

Dust

C H A O S
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,283
Well, it's a little more than just a name drop.

(Big endgame spoilers)




The last game you explore turns out to be an unreleased Shadows of the Damned sequel starring Johnson as the protagonist, and it ends with a hint that there might be a real sequel some time in the future.

Holy fucking shit, Suda is god damn crazy.
At this point I gotta ask.
Did he cram in Mondo Zappa too?
 

Dust

C H A O S
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,283
Third game will be batshit insane when/if (?) it happens. Thanks for these posts.
 

Zonic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,447
*starts up Serious Moonlight*

.....wait.......

did they just imply....

...........man, this is gonna be nuts.
 

vestan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Dec 28, 2017
24,635
I fuckin' love this game dude. Travisman better show up in No More Heroes 3.

 
Oct 27, 2017
936
Finally managed to get through this, and I gotta say, I really, really, REALLY hate how much Metacritic and a bunch of fuckin numbers can sway so many people on what is supposedly the most 'mature' gaming forum. As multiple people have pointed out already, this game is laying out some themes and ideas that go way beyond 'lol wacky gamer humor,' (I would honestly say that some of the commentary here is way more thought-provoking than a 'mature' but much more traditional story like God of War) but A) I don't think most reviewers who don't have a grasp on Suda and his past will appreciate it, and B) because they're presented in VN form, they lack the pizzaz so desperately needed to earn points in today's industry.

TSA is gonna get written off as a misfire when it really really shouldn't be. I staunchly believe that if this game had more traditional cutscenes and voice acting, critics would have been kinder to it. The MC joke in the game is so on point, I know many hate when writers try to preempt criticism like that, but when combined with all the other points about the industry the game makes it actually becomes a rather scathing indictment on review culture.

And as far as gameplay goes, I'm pretty pleased. Between the chip system and the escalation of enemy threat I think the combat was perfectly fun and satisfactory in relation to the game's length. My only major complaint was that almost all of the games wear out their welcome well before they're actually over; Golden Dragon and Serious Moonlight being the only exceptions.
 

MondoMega

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jan 10, 2018
47,474
In-case anyone was even slightly doubting what the post-credits scene was teasing:
 

EatChildren

Wonder from Down Under
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,029
I still don't know if I disagree with the review culture surrounding Travis Strikes Again, because of the incredibly subjective and contextual nature of its strengths, alongside its regularly cited weaknesses that I also recognised and felt hindered the overall experience of engaging with the game. Travis Strikes Again falls into a difficult trap where we can collectively sit here and heap praise on what it says and accomplishes, but that experience wont necessarily be shared by everyone. For us, long time fans of Suda and Grasshopper's work, this is an experience in of itself, and a welcome one, due the meta nature of its narrative and self reflective critique and the parallels we draw.

For someone else though? That experience is going to be inherently lessened with significant margin. Suda's critique and dissection of Grasshopper's history through Travis Strikes Again would be lost. Serious Moonlight's impact going over their head. The tongue-in-cheek humour surrounding game development missed. The relevant of anything/everything obsolete. TSA is utterly self indulgent in not just the philosophy of video game development, but Grasshopper and Suda as well, and if you dont care or know about these things then who gives a shit.

What you're left with is a Grasshopper game as Grasshopper does, jank and all. And that jank unfortunately includes clumsy game systems, like the platforming. Stages that too often outstay their welcome (the final stage is awfully guilty of this). Erratic framerate that tanks pretty badly in some stages. Unorthadox pacing which is a compliment for those who like experiences that break the mould but not for people looking for something tigher and more standardised.

So when all is said and done, criticism of Travis Strikes Again's reviews fall into a weird place where I don't actually think they're unfair. It's just a game that is hard to review. Grasshopper and Suda are niche as fuck, this is reality. Suda's brand of game design and narrative even moreso. It's not the norm and never will be, hecne the charm. But people still have to review the game, and those people are going to derive very different experiences and subjective exposure compared to others, particularly (again) long time Grasshopper fans. Tolerance levels vary when faced with questionable design, and I don't think it's unfair that some can't see diamonds in the rough, when those diamonds unfortunately come with a laundry list of prerequisits.

Put it this way; there's a lot in game design that I critique about Travis Strikes Again. I think it's a weaker playing game than a lot of Grasshopper's output, including Suda's best. There's a lot of stuff that could be refined, polished, and changed that wouldn't make it a lesser project, and some of that stuff I'm not going to excuse just because janky Grasshopper meme. No More Heroes was a better game, in my opinion. Killer 7 was too.

I still loved my time with it as a whole, for the strengths that boiled through the weaknesses and enriched the experience as a whole. I bought the physical version and I don't regret it at all. It appealled to me as a Suda fan, Grasshopper fan, and No More Heroes fan. I love what Suda did with the narrative and its reflective critique. I love the play on game development and Grasshopper's history. I loved it enough that I've unlocked every K fax, found Jeane in each stage, and intend to S rank all bosses on Spicy. I'm looking forward to the DLC.

But I've got a mate who saw I purchased the game, and asked what I thought. He's never played a Grasshopper game in his life. He has no interest in them or Suda. None of their games appeal to him. So I could not comfortably recommend him Travis Strikes Again. That's, unfortunately, the challenge of reviewing something like this.

Because of the nature of the game Suda and Grasshopper made, we cannot expect a blockbuster hit. It's niche as hell.
 

Haze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,785
Detroit, MI
Travisman is an ability both Travis and Badman have, which combines them together to form...TRAVISMAN.
OH FUCK

But I've got a mate who saw I purchased the game, and asked what I thought. He's never played a Grasshopper game in his life. He has no interest in them or Suda. None of their games appeal to him. So I could not comfortably recommend him Travis Strikes Again. That's, unfortunately, the challenge of reviewing something like this.

I think the esoteric nature of TSA isn't necessarilly a bad thing. The deep nuances of how "in" it is only make it better for the people who it was made for. It's just very niche so like you said it would be hard to recommend to someone not familiar with Suda that enjoys his and GHM's games.

But I don't think that makes it any worse of a game. I can see why some reviewers would not enjoy the game if they aren't "in" on the things it's trying to do.
 
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ghibli99

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,814
I still don't know if I disagree with the review culture surrounding Travis Strikes Again, because of the incredibly subjective and contextual nature of its strengths, alongside its regularly cited weaknesses that I also recognised and felt hindered the overall experience of engaging with the game. Travis Strikes Again falls into a difficult trap where we can collectively sit here and heap praise on what it says and accomplishes, but that experience wont necessarily be shared by everyone. For us, long time fans of Suda and Grasshopper's work, this is an experience in of itself, and a welcome one, due the meta nature of its narrative and self reflective critique and the parallels we draw.

For someone else though? That experience is going to be inherently lessened with significant margin. Suda's critique and dissection of Grasshopper's history through Travis Strikes Again would be lost. Serious Moonlight's impact going over their head. The tongue-in-cheek humour surrounding game development missed. The relevant of anything/everything obsolete. TSA is utterly self indulgent in not just the philosophy of video game development, but Grasshopper and Suda as well, and if you dont care or know about these things then who gives a shit.

What you're left with is a Grasshopper game as Grasshopper does, jank and all. And that jank unfortunately includes clumsy game systems, like the platforming. Stages that too often outstay their welcome (the final stage is awfully guilty of this). Erratic framerate that tanks pretty badly in some stages. Unorthadox pacing which is a compliment for those who like experiences that break the mould but not for people looking for something tigher and more standardised.

So when all is said and done, criticism of Travis Strikes Again's reviews fall into a weird place where I don't actually think they're unfair. It's just a game that is hard to review. Grasshopper and Suda are niche as fuck, this is reality. Suda's brand of game design and narrative even moreso. It's not the norm and never will be, hecne the charm. But people still have to review the game, and those people are going to derive very different experiences and subjective exposure compared to others, particularly (again) long time Grasshopper fans. Tolerance levels vary when faced with questionable design, and I don't think it's unfair that some can't see diamonds in the rough, when those diamonds unfortunately come with a laundry list of prerequisits.

Put it this way; there's a lot in game design that I critique about Travis Strikes Again. I think it's a weaker playing game than a lot of Grasshopper's output, including Suda's best. There's a lot of stuff that could be refined, polished, and changed that wouldn't make it a lesser project, and some of that stuff I'm not going to excuse just because janky Grasshopper meme. No More Heroes was a better game, in my opinion. Killer 7 was too.

I still loved my time with it as a whole, for the strengths that boiled through the weaknesses and enriched the experience as a whole. I bought the physical version and I don't regret it at all. It appealled to me as a Suda fan, Grasshopper fan, and No More Heroes fan. I love what Suda did with the narrative and its reflective critique. I love the play on game development and Grasshopper's history. I loved it enough that I've unlocked every K fax, found Jeane in each stage, and intend to S rank all bosses on Spicy. I'm looking forward to the DLC.

But I've got a mate who saw I purchased the game, and asked what I thought. He's never played a Grasshopper game in his life. He has no interest in them or Suda. None of their games appeal to him. So I could not comfortably recommend him Travis Strikes Again. That's, unfortunately, the challenge of reviewing something like this.

Because of the nature of the game Suda and Grasshopper made, we cannot expect a blockbuster hit. It's niche as hell.
Thanks for the post... it was a good read, and I think it's perfectly fine -- even encouraging -- that games like this not only get made, but get published by a big company like Nintendo. I mean, I'm sure they weren't blind at any point about what they were signing up for. It's OK that not everyone likes it. It's OK that maybe most people don't like it, but it's a good thing that it exists. It's good to talk about it. It's good to debate what makes it special or not and what needs to happen if the series is to continue and not niche itself into complete obscurity. Or maybe that's where it should go. It's all very compelling to me, to say the least.
 

EatChildren

Wonder from Down Under
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,029
Thanks for the post... it was a good read, and I think it's perfectly fine -- even encouraging -- that games like this not only get made, but get published by a big company like Nintendo. I mean, I'm sure they weren't blind at any point about what they were signing up for. It's OK that not everyone likes it. It's OK that maybe most people don't like it, but it's a good thing that it exists. It's good to talk about it. It's good to debate what makes it special or not and what needs to happen if the series is to continue and not niche itself into complete obscurity. Or maybe that's where it should go. It's all very compelling to me, to say the least.

That's how I feel. At the very least, Travis Strikes Again reminds me a lot of older Suda/Grasshopper work before they had their blip of fame post-NMH. Weirdass grungy shit that doesn't comfort to design standards and feels like a relic from another time and place.
 
Oct 27, 2017
798
I'm gonna fucking bust down Suda's door and start coding the No More Heroes fighting game after I kidnap him if he doesn't just do it himself soon.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
Just beat Serious Moonlight.
I really need to play SotD. It's probably the Grasshopper game post killer7 I have the least experience with.

Also fucking Bad Dog I love this. Why can I interact with her but not Jeane though?
 

Celine

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,030
Thanks for the post... it was a good read, and I think it's perfectly fine -- even encouraging -- that games like this not only get made, but get published by a big company like Nintendo. I mean, I'm sure they weren't blind at any point about what they were signing up for. It's OK that not everyone likes it. It's OK that maybe most people don't like it, but it's a good thing that it exists. It's good to talk about it. It's good to debate what makes it special or not and what needs to happen if the series is to continue and not niche itself into complete obscurity. Or maybe that's where it should go. It's all very compelling to me, to say the least.
TSA is the first game published by GHM (which is why it's very important for GHM future, a good chunk of the sales goes to them this time around).
Nintendo distribute the physical version in western markets.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,007
Canada
Okay, finally bit the bullet and grabbed a copy. Going to do what that other poster suggested and sell the sealed PAL copy when the Pix'nLove edition arrives.

Honestly, this might be my most hyped game this year, I doubt I'm going to have this amount of anticipation when putting in the disc for RE2 or DMCV.
Hearing y'all talk about how this is a largely introspective game for Suda and his career is the most hype sounding shit I could hear right now.
I cannot wait to start digging in tonight.

Edit: I've been reading this thread, but I've somehow remained unspoiled on that ending thing and pretty much all story beats. Thanks for the liberal use of spoiler tags!
 
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Capra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,620
Serious Moonlight...

Fuck I need to play Shadows of the Damned. Thankfully it looks like they straight-up teased a port at least... Although I don't know if I should be holding my breath. Still, being able to replay with a proper new game plus like Travis mentions would be cool...

TSA isn't exactly a great or even a good game, but goddamn Suda's got balls putting something like this in a low-budget Switch game. This game is giving me more joy for the sheer insanity of it than most of the actually good, polished AAA games I've played in recent memory.
 

EatChildren

Wonder from Down Under
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,029
One on the quips I love in Serious Moonlight was...
...Travis' complaints of no New Game Plus and being able to take across your weapons and upgrades. I recall distinctly having the same thoughts, and hoping they'd patch it in. It was a great moment of fourth wall breaking, speaking directly to me.
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,865
I think this game has a higher budget than one might think. The environment isn't exactly copy-pasted and there's a lot of meat to the gameplay system. Not too mention all the cutscenes available, and the high quality serious moonlight CGI. Several producers for each CGI segment even. What is it missing ? Real-time cutscenes and that's pretty much it.

Had this game been over the shoulder I don't think many would consider it low-budget as much. I mean NMH2 had parking lot levels
 

Blunoise

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,885
Atlanta, GA
Finally managed to get through this, and I gotta say, I really, really, REALLY hate how much Metacritic and a bunch of fuckin numbers can sway so many people on what is supposedly the most 'mature' gaming forum. As multiple people have pointed out already, this game is laying out some themes and ideas that go way beyond 'lol wacky gamer humor,' (I would honestly say that some of the commentary here is way more thought-provoking than a 'mature' but much more traditional story like God of War) but A) I don't think most reviewers who don't have a grasp on Suda and his past will appreciate it, and B) because they're presented in VN form, they lack the pizzaz so desperately needed to earn points in today's industry.

TSA is gonna get written off as a misfire when it really really shouldn't be. I staunchly believe that if this game had more traditional cutscenes and voice acting, critics would have been kinder to it. The MC joke in the game is so on point, I know many hate when writers try to preempt criticism like that, but when combined with all the other points about the industry the game makes it actually becomes a rather scathing indictment on review culture.

And as far as gameplay goes, I'm pretty pleased. Between the chip system and the escalation of enemy threat I think the combat was perfectly fun and satisfactory in relation to the game's length. My only major complaint was that almost all of the games wear out their welcome well before they're actually over; Golden Dragon and Serious Moonlight being the only exceptions.
I hope this game is a slow burner and will pick up in sales over time, cuz yea u be thinking about this game everyday
 

Tyrant Rave

Has A Pretty Cool Jacket
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,696
One on the quips I love in Serious Moonlight was...
...Travis' complaints of no New Game Plus and being able to take across your weapons and upgrades. I recall distinctly having the same thoughts, and hoping they'd patch it in. It was a great moment of fourth wall breaking, speaking directly to me.
Same here lol. I even beat it 3 times, just like Travis!