Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

esserius said:

Ironically, I do think it would be educational to be able to show people what a game looks like where men are treated in a manner similar to women. Imagine Rex with entirely skintight clothing, a completely bear back, booty shorts, and a gigantic bulge in his crotch. More to the point, I'll say that game probably already exists, but showing it would evoke outrage and NSFW comments.

Also, too late, it kinda already happened:

Also funny - nobody seemed to call this censorship when the change was made, but instead they used another word with surprising frequency in the articles I saw: the design was, "ridiculous". I'm sure it has nothing to do with males actually feeling uncomfortable with their own sex when it's exploited to an even slightly comparable degree to what women are exposed to every day. Nope. Couldn't be.

Or maybe, juuuuuuust maybe, sexual exploitation when it's targeted at your gender is shitty and demeaning.

Spoiler

I'm kinda frustrated right now.

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The weird thing is that rex is in skintight clothing and booty shorts that tightly contours around his ass.

Kemono said:

It seems like it's selling more units than the two earlier entries. I would assume that they'll understand that as "more of what we did with Xenoblade Chronicles 2" in our next game.

Same with the new Fire Emblem next year. Prepare for the waifus, lolis and a extended breeding/wedding feature.

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The main reasons I bought XC2 was for decent reviews and the legacy of the first game (which I loved).

If XC3 is announced I'll know now what to expect in terms of sexual pandering from modern MonolithSoft and will therefore be far less likely to get invested. Maybe by the time XC4 comes out we'll see improvements? :P

Cid said:

I really don't understand the practical clothing argument
In all rpgs you go to snow lands and desserts in the same clothing
Pratical clothing really doesn't exist in rpgs

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You'd notice that every time "practical clothing" is brought up, it's almost always in the context of "male characters mostly get them yet female characters don't".

I often see people ignore that point and go straight to the "it's fiction so it's not beholden to reality" argument.

Which actually makes it worse because then nothing is actually stopping them from giving the male and female characters the same clothing treatment.

I've been playing a lot of Nier Automata lately (up to route C so far) and today I got XC2, so needless to say I've experienced my fair share of fanservice.

Automata is a fantastic game so far, I adore it and its characters, but while 2B is mostly tolerable, man, the action guarantees that her leotard is exposed most of the time and it makes some touching scenes kinda distracting. Really, I dig her design concept, but she could get what's missing of her skirt and lose the boob window and nothing of value would be lost... That being said, it's kinda hilarious that right now I'm playing as a character who essentially dresses like Quiet and nobody ever mentions that lol.

As for XC2, oof, I'm barely 2 hours in but almost every cutscene with Pyra in it feels like some kind or parody. Taking the story serious will be a struggle.

Antiwhippy said:

The weird thing is that rex is in skintight clothing and booty shorts that tightly contours around his ass.

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Yeah I noticed his ass kinda pops up, looks goofy lol.

Kemono said:

Same with the new Fire Emblem next year. Prepare for the waifus, lolis and a extended breeding/wedding feature.

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Elements of those have been in many FE games, sadly. It didn't start with the 3DS.
But I feel the next game can go either way on some points, the children in Fates are generally not popular for example.

I'm hoping there's a new artist, it's about time for one, and hopefully they will move a away from that a bit, but only time will tell.

esserius said:

Ironically, I do think it would be educational to be able to show people what a game looks like where men are treated in a manner similar to women. Imagine Rex with entirely skintight clothing, a completely bear back, booty shorts, and a gigantic bulge in his crotch. More to the point, I'll say that game probably already exists, but showing it would evoke outrage and NSFW comments.

Also, too late, it kinda already happened:

Also funny - nobody seemed to call this censorship when the change was made, but instead they used another word with surprising frequency in the articles I saw: the design was, "ridiculous". I'm sure it has nothing to do with males actually feeling uncomfortable with their own sex when it's exploited to the same degree women are. Nope. Couldn't be.

Or maybe, juuuuuuust maybe, sexual exploitation when it's targeted at your gender is shitty and demeaning.

Spoiler

I'm kinda frustrated right now.

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Would be interesting to see the reaction to Kuja as well as Zidane's trance if FFIX ever got a remake.

Opa-Pa said:

That being said, it's kinda hilarious that right now I'm playing as a character who essentially dresses like Quiet and nobody ever mentions that lol.

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The price of having 2 protagonists far more popular than you lol

Opa-Pa said:

I've been playing a lot of Nier Automata lately (up to route C so far) and today I got XC2, so needless to say I've experienced my fair share of fanservice.

Automata is a fantastic game so far, I adore it and its characters, but while 2B is mostly tolerable, man, the action guarantees that her leotard is exposed most of the time and it makes some touching scenes kinda distracting. Really, I dig her design concept, but she could get what's missing of her skirt and lose the boob window and nothing of value would be lost... That being said, it's kinda hilarious that right now I'm playing as a character who essentially dresses like Quiet and nobody ever mentions that lol.

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Eh...
I don't really want to get into a battle of "this fanservice character is better than this one!" because it's a disingenuous fight but 2B is hardly like quiet. :P

Antiwhippy said:

The weird thing is that rex is in skintight clothing and booty shorts that tightly contours around his ass.

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True, but it's nowhere near as egregious (partially because it's covered up by big, poofy leg-attachment... things, and partially because it's not unrealistically enlarged). Also noticed that XB2 still has that weird obsession with belts. Not Nomura levels, but still there...

You definitely notice it though, because those leg attachment things look like assless chaps, but yeah, nowhere near as egregious as pyra.

It always amuses me how many jRPGs these days features optional outfits...yet so few bother to give the characters a costume change when, say, they're passing through the inevitable desert/antarctic area. Pirate outfit? Sure! Swimsuits? Without question! Maid dress? We've got your back! Winter wear? Nah, mate, not iconic enough.

Rutger said:

Would be interesting to see the reaction to Kuja as well as Zidane's trance if FFIX ever got a remake.

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Just look at the reaction when it first came out. Kuja, despite combining all the best bits from Kefka and Sephiroth, isn't exactly popular.

See also: Vagrant Story.

Antiwhippy said:

Eh...
I don't really want to get into a battle of "this fanservice character is better than this one!" because it's a disingenuous fight but 2B is hardly like quiet. :P

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Oh no no lol, I was talking about A2.

Dary said:

Just look at the reaction when it first came out. Kuja, despite combining all the best bits from Kefka and Sephiroth, isn't exactly popular. See also: Vagrant Story.

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Aye, I remember Kuja making me uncomfortable as a kid lol, now I find him funny.

Also I'm preeeetty sure a lot of the animosity towards Vaan's design comes from a similar place too.

Dary said:

Just look at the reaction when it first came out. Kuja, despite combining all the best bits from Kefka and Sephiroth, isn't exactly popular.

See also: Vagrant Story.

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True.
I didn't play the game around when it came out, and generally don't stay around the FF communities, so it's not something I think of right away.

He's one of my favorite villains in the series though.

Antiwhippy said:

Eh...
I don't really want to get into a battle of "this fanservice character is better than this one!" because it's a disingenuous fight but 2B is hardly like quiet. :P

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He's talking about A2. I can't really deny that she's Nier's "Quiet", though only in terms of appearance. Only saving grace is that her personality is infinitely better, and ya don't gotta worry about utterly embarassing cutscenes and what not. It's a shame too, it's not hard to pull off the whole disheveled android fugitive look without doing it in a way that's clearly supposed to be titillating.

Opa-Pa said:

Also I'm preeeetty sure a lot of the animosity towards Vaan's design comes from a similar place too.

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Opa-Pa said:

Oh no no lol, I was talking about A2. They could probably have pulled off

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Oh right, fair enough.

I guess why she isn't brought up as much is because she is fairly late game and the game doesn't do things like the weird shower scene, the constant shoving of ass at the camera and the weird covorting in the rain scenes that are in MGSV, Nor does the camera cosntantly frame her ass and boobs like in XB2. Which probably is more of a shame for the design. They probably could have pulled off the disheveled look differently.

Lotus said:

He's talking about A2. I can't really deny that she's Nier's "Quiet", though only in terms of appearance. Only saving grace is that her personality is infinitely better, and ya don't gotta worry about utterly embarassing cutscenes and what not. It's a shame too, it's not hard to pull off the whole disheveled android fugitive look without doing it in a way that's clearly supposed to be titillating.

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Nor sure it came off that way to me. I got more of an impression like she was poorly maintained than being specifically sexy. As if her exposed sectioned body parts emphasized that she was an android more than the other characters.

Interesting that others had an entirely opposite feeling about her.

Oh no, I think the intention is to show that she's been poorly maintained seeing that but it could have been done differently?

It might make more sense for her to dress up like the resistence who are all more practically dressed for a reason.

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Though it might be to show that she really doesn't care about anything else.

Possibly, although I'm not sure it would convey the same emphasis on her being an android that her current design does, assuming that was intentional. Her DLC costume has that effect IMHO, not that it doesn't look good or fit her.

On a side note, I just for the first time noticed the exposed bit of hip in Anemone's character art. No one is safe.

DerpHause said:

Nor sure it came off that way to me. I got more of an impression like she was poorly maintained than being specifically sexy. As if her exposed sectioned body parts emphasized that she was an android more than the other characters.

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It was a having their cake and eating it too scenario to me personally. Where yea, she has an in-game reason for looking that way. That she also doesn't give a shit how she looks. But they still went out of their to present it to be as appealing as possible, to have the skin peeled off in just the right places. There's multiple ways they could've gone about making her look disheveled. If she's supposed to look a mess, then go all the way with it imo

Now due to her interesting personality, as well the game or its characters never drawing attention to it, it didn't take me too long to just roll with it. I actually like her more than 2B.

But yea, it just wasn't necessary at all.

A2 is more like Kaine than Quiet. Again, justified IMO considering how Yorha is.

I mean justified or not I feel like the point of this thread is if it can be alienating to female audiences.

There are more ways than one to skin a cat.

Lotus said:

It was a having their cake and eating it too scenario to me personally. Where yea, she has an in-game reason for looking that way. That she also doesn't give a shit how she looks. But they still went out of their to present it to be as appealing as possible, to have the skin peeled off in just the right places. There's multiple ways they could've gone about making her look disheveled. If she's supposed to look a mess, then go all the way with it imo

Now due to her interesting personality, as well the game or its characters never drawing attention to it, it didn't take me too long to just roll with it. I actually like her more than 2B.

But yea, it just wasn't necessary at all.

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To an extent yes, I agree. I don't think it was easily escapable with the overall aesthetic though, and also considering she was supposed to be somewhat poorly maintained visually as opposed to functionally and/or being damaged. Also on the character model I can't tell what is explicitly ripped flesh vs clothing remnants. I'd visually interpreted much of her torso as be covered as opposed to being stripped of flesh. Going to look for some official character art now.

Regarding necessary, no, obviously not. But nothing ever is.

Antiwhippy said:

I mean justified or not I feel like the point of this thread is if it can be alienating to female audiences.

There are more ways than one to skin a cat.

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No need to present that as a hypothetical. It was off-putting to members of both genders. Though I'd say at that point being respectful to the world and characters you're creating while exploring your own visual identity with meaning beyond simply titillation is something that should be noteworthy and acceptable even if if turns some people away.

Antiwhippy said:

Oh right, fair enough.

I guess why she isn't brought up as much is because she is fairly late game and the game doesn't do things like the weird shower scene, the constant shoving of ass at the camera and the weird covorting in the rain scenes that are in MGSV, Nor does the camera cosntantly frame her ass and boobs like in XB2. Which probably is more of a shame for the design. They probably could have pulled off the disheveled look differently.

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I wasn't really implying that she's as bad as Quiet as a whole really, just that they have similar outfits. Mostly I found it curious that 2B (deservedly IMO) gets flak but A2 doesn't despite being much worse.

It's a shame because both 2B and A2 are compelling characters who aren't even treated as eyecandy by the camera and I think both design concepts could have been handled in a more tasteful manner without compromising their messages.

Pyra and especially Quiet are straight up bottom of the barrel trash though, no point in comparing them.

DerpHause said:

No need to present that as a hypothetical. It was off-putting to members of both genders. Though I'd say at that point being respectful to the world and characters you're creating while exploring your own visual identity with meaning beyond simply titillation is something that should be noteworthy and acceptable even if if turns some people away.

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My point is that justification is all well and good, I can and have justified it, but it's always with the caveat that it can be done differently. I'm not the gender who been made tired and alienated through years and years of sexualised character designs (though I've been alienated in my own way through other things...), so it's not up to me to decide whether the designs are alienating enough to even bother.

Like if a slight change can make everyone be less hesitant of enjoying it and not harm the themes why should I not want it changed?

Antiwhippy said:

My point is that justification is all well and good, I can and have justified it, but it's always with the caveat that it can be done differently. I'm not the gender who been made tired and alienated through years and years of sexualised character designs (though I've been alienated in my own way through other things...), so it's not up to me to decide whether the designs are alienating enough to even bother.

Like if a slight change can make everyone be less hesitant of enjoying it and not harm the themes why should I not want it changed?

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It's hard for me to fathom a change in visual direction of the main cast as qualifying as a slight change. And that visual identity is one of the themes. Beyond that I can only reiterate my prior thoughts on the matter: This work doing what it does to tie visuals into world and narrative doesn't seem worthy of condemnation, even if it does turn people away.

Rutger said:

Elements of those have been in many FE games, sadly. It didn't start with the 3DS.

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Let's not pretend like the pre-Awakening designs sexualized women in anywhere near as crass a manner as they do now.

something like this:
would have been so much better for 2B. Instead every time I moved in that game I got a flash of her ass. And I saw Nomura's designs for that Torma group in Xenoblade

ugh

Caz said:

Let's not pretend like the pre-Awakening designs sexualized women in anywhere near as crass a manner as they do now.

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I wouldn't call this better.
https://serenesforest.net/wp-conten...f-the-holy-war/super-tactics-book/Page-84.jpg

But yes, the period between 5~10 is better off than what we are seeing in the 3DS games, but I also wasn't trying to say that they are on the same level. Elements of it have still been around throughout the series, such as most of the women fighting in miniskirts or other outfits that expose their legs, and I don't think it helps the discussion to ignore that.

Rutger said:

I wouldn't call this better.
https://serenesforest.net/wp-conten...f-the-holy-war/super-tactics-book/Page-84.jpg

But yes, the period between 5~10 is better off than what we are seeing in the 3DS games, but I also wasn't trying to say that they are on the same level. Elements of it have still been around throughout the series, such as most of the women fighting in miniskirts or other outfits that expose their legs, and I don't think it helps the discussion to ignore that.

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That's still cherry-picking. Most of the females in the early Fire Emblems don't look like Lene. Somewhere in the series however, that changes.

http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Brigid#FE4

Rutger said:

I wouldn't call this better.
https://serenesforest.net/wp-conten...f-the-holy-war/super-tactics-book/Page-84.jpg

But yes, the period between 5~10 is better off than what we are seeing in the 3DS games, but I also wasn't trying to say that they are on the same level. Elements of it have still been around throughout the series, such as most of the women fighting in miniskirts or other outfits that expose their legs, and I don't think it helps the discussion to ignore that.

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I don't think minimizing how much worse the designs got for women post-Awakening by cherrypicking examples does anyone any good.

Dragmire said:

[...] And I saw Nomura's designs for that Torma group in Xenoblade

ugh

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Man, this sort of thing really gets my goat. The lady would look totally badass wearing the exact same kit as the guys, but nooooo, gotta sex her up because... reasons...

PSO2 does the exact same shit and it turns me off so damn hard. Double standards need to die a bloody death.

Actually, I don't think I've expressed why Nia's outfit enrages me so properly. Note, this goes heavily into plot spoiler territory for one character. You have been warned.

Laiza said:

Man, this sort of thing really gets my goat. The lady would look totally badass wearing the exact same kit as the guys, but nooooo, gotta sex her up because... reasons...

PSO2 does the exact same shit and it turns me off so damn hard. Double standards need to die a bloody death.

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It gets worse, there is another blade from Torna and she gets an even more rediculous costume. Look at my last post on the previous page for who I'm talking about because it is a spoiler.

Reading comments I am under the impression that JRPGs have the most serious issue, not because other genres feature less questionable designs but because players are more demanding for change. JRPGs can have good storyline and character development, as opposed to action/FPS, beatemups and fighting games. Or does it have to do with the players experience? I played adventure/horror/mystery series on computers and gender issues were present but not like on consoles. Though I avoided fantasy games and Tomb Raider. Hated that hideous design

While adventure and horror games always had more room for better representation and design.

There are also gender neutral games like historic/ strategy games or games like chess and pool. Eg I learned about the Polgar sisters through Chessmaster

Xaszatm said:

It gets worse, there is another blade from Torna and she gets an even more rediculous costume. Look at my last post on the previous page for who I'm talking about because it is a spoiler.

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You're kinda giving stuff away passively, even outside of spoilers :p

petran79 said:

Reading comments I am under the impression that JRPGs have the most issue

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We seek out jrpgs voluntarily
We seek out anime
We seek out entertainment which comes from a certain japanese culture
We are foreigners
It's their art


And yet we want them to change their works for us in north america and europe

The japanese themselfs should be the initiators of change of their artforms if they seek change

I have been two times in japan
I would be ashamed to walk up to the people in Tokyo and tell them how they should change THEIR artforms for me

Cid said:

We seek out jrpgs voluntarily
We seek out anime
We seek out entertainment which comes from a certain japanese culture
We are foreigners
It's their art


And yet we want them to change their works for us in north america and europe

The japanese themselfs should be the initiators of change of their artforms if they seek change

I have been two times in japan
I would be ashamed to walk up to the people in Tokyo and tell them how they should change THEIR artforms for me

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Except they sell their products to international audiences too. If anything, a lot of those games sell better in the West too.

You have been warned about trying to shut down discussion in this thread. Since it's clear you never have anything to contribute and ignore every counter-argument you receive, I strongly advise you to leave this thread or start putting actual substance behind your posts.

Cid said:

We seek out jrpgs voluntarily
We seek out anime
We seek out entertainment which comes from a certain japanese culture
We are foreigners
It's their art


And yet we want them to change their works for us in north america and europe

The japanese themselfs should be the initiators of change of their artforms if they seek change

I have been two times in japan
I would be ashamed to walk up to the people in Tokyo and tell them how they should change THEIR artforms for me

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You got it wrong, they seek out our money, by launching their game to the west, so we have 100% the right to give our feedback to their products they want to sell us. Japanese games, atleast in a big proportion, are done with both west and east audiences in mind.

Also, I've been in Japan too, and pandering is not representative to their artform at all, it's just a part of it, and it's not that big, but it may be pretty stable financially, that's the only thing true.

Cid said:

We seek out jrpgs voluntarily
We seek out anime
We seek out entertainment which comes from a certain japanese culture
We are foreigners
It's their art


And yet we want them to change their works for us in north america and europe

The japanese themselfs should be the initiators of change of their artforms if they seek change

I have been two times in japan
I would be ashamed to walk up to the people in Tokyo and tell them how they should change THEIR artforms for me

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Japanese feminists have been talking about this shit for a while tho

To a certain extent I agree with OP on females in games. If a game is heavily action or combat oriented and features females performing said action or combat I'd like them to look more the part in terms of having visible muscle tone and being decked out in combat appropriate gear. However, this desire comes from an entirely different place. In my case I simply appreciate the female form and think females actually look cooler than males when they're fit and decked out in battle gear on top of being sexy, it's my own preference. For example if I'm playing an MMO and there's a muscle slider I'll always make full use of it and try to go for outfits that make my female character look like a badass.

So if I were in charge of game design I'd make sure any females that are performing in combat look the part, however I would not do away with the eye candy and I'd make said combat appropriate females look idealized and attractive. I'd still have those eye candy females in the game but they'd be entirely there for the sake of fan service and would serve absolutely no role in the combat whatsoever. I love fanservice and the sexualization of females in games, however where I disagree with many other games is that the sexualized eye candy females should not be the playable characters or the ones performing the action.

Now let me make clear that I'd still have these eye candy females as the cheerleaders, the maids, or any other non-combat service role since that's honestly where those types of females should be imo, not fighting. I think that if a female is going to be performing on the battlefield she should actually look like she could absolutely fuck shit up. So that'd probably be where I also disagree with OP and those against the sexualization of females in games, I think there's a place for these types of sexualized females and that's it's just a matter of better writing to properly fit these females in the game that makes a good amount of sense.

But even disregarding that, this notion that it's somehow "problematic" to have these sexualized females in the game is one that I actually find offensive. Let's just set the record straight here and point out that yes, this sexualization is in fact done for the male gamer and usually something the Dev wants to do. The types of games that sexualize their females where never for any of the people who'd find it offensive to begin with. It's not like there's some kind of plot to demean females through games and promote them to be over sexualized IRL, it's simply something that's done to get the attention of your typical male gamer.

So don't treat it like it's this huge problem that needs to be addressed, it absolutely isn't. There are games that don't sexualize females and those are the types of games that OP and those that share that sentiment should focus on. I don't agree with complaining about it because it gives the impression that companies and Devs are somehow doing a bad thing by having these sexualized females in their games, and that simply isn't true. There's nothing sexist about wanting to have an overly sexed out female in a game and enjoying that, it's perfectly normal and doesn't cause any harm to anybody besides those that can't cope with views they don't like and can't, for whatever reason, disregard it.

I could make the argument that games which don't sexualize their females are somehow problematic and prudish, but my argument wouldn't be any less valid than those of you complaining about games that do sexualize females, it's all subjective. Nobody is committing any fouls and that's my problem and those that are so negative towards you complaining's problem. You're all on this high-horse and acting like some kind of civil rights issue is at stake, it absolutely isn't and you all really need to tone it down. That this thread is 100+ pages is ridiculous. Not only isn't complaining like this going to not change anything, but will actively set many people against you to defend their hobby from this absurd criticism.

Like I've said before, I think Anita is incredibly toxic for even making such an issue about females in games the way she did, because it creates a narrative that she's objectively right and those these companies and Devs are somehow the bad guys when that's just simply not the case. It almost feels like a group of outsiders trying to muscle in and make demands while acting like they're righteous. Stop it.

Yeaahh like, the whole cultural relativism thing maybe has a few select applications depending on the circumstances but this ain't one em. Its always been a dumb argument. Eeeven if a particular game isn't releasing here, that doesn't mean it's not doing harm across the sea, and that doesn't mean it's not further contributing to a climate that affects others game that DO come over.

That post really went places huh.

psychowave said:

Japanese feminists have been talking about this shit for a while tho

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I'm curious about this btw. Because we often hear the argument "but it's Japanese culture, this is how they do things, they don't have any problem with sexualized women/girls" etc, but are there people in Japan who also speak against it (a bit like what's happening in this thread)? Are there examples? I know there was this story about the Ama divers being unhappy about this mascot ( https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2...nounce-obscene-city-mascot-demand-withdrawal/ ), for instance.

Oh boy, I just wanted to check how the discussion is going now. Last time I noped out quite fast. And now I see that wall of text.

Swift ban though, which is much appreciated.

Man, and I thought they flocked to the other threads about this nonsense. Oh well, at least our moderators are on the case.

psychowave said:

Japanese feminists have been talking about this shit for a while tho

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althought fanservice its a heavy part of the japanese media (games, Tv shows, anime, manga, etc) when it comes to real life Issues Japan does takes matter in hand properly to protect women, take example, the women only carts in trains or in matters related to prostitution, woman is considered always the victim (even in cases where she solicited) so if one is caught engaging in it, is the costumer who will receive charges.
so why is such a disparity between real world views and media views?, beats me