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Oct 25, 2017
9,007
Canada
althought fanservice its a heavy part of the japanese media (games, Tv shows, anime, manga, etc) when it comes to real life Issues Japan does takes matter in hand properly to protect women, take example, the women only carts in trains or in matters related to prostitution, woman is considered always the victim (even in cases where she solicited) so if one is caught engaging in it, is the costumer who will receive charges.
so why is such a disparity between real world views and media views?, beats me
You're talking about from a legal sense. From everything I've heard, Japanese gender roles are really awful. Assuming that the west is the direction they should be heading towards, they seem to be many many years behind.

Creating a gender specific train car for women to not get groped, shows there is a significant problem in society.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,362
althought fanservice its a heavy part of the japanese media (games, Tv shows, anime, manga, etc) when it comes to real life Issues Japan does takes matter in hand properly to protect women, take example, the women only carts in trains or in matters related to prostitution, woman is considered always the victim (even in cases where she solicited) so if one is caught engaging in it, is the costumer who will receive charges.
so why is such a disparity between real world views and media views?, beats me
Ehhhh, that's a huge leap in logic here. The very fact that women-only cars even exist to begin with, is because Japan has such a huge societal problem with women getting groped and sexually assaulted in trains! The women-only cars are a band-aid solution to a larger problem, not a sign that Japan is particularly progressive about gender.
 

Pablo Mesa

Banned
Nov 23, 2017
6,878
Creating a gender specific train car for women to not get groped, shows there is a significant problem in society.

is because Japan has such a huge societal problem with women getting groped and sexually assaulted in trains!

the cart was created for a general population benefit
A) cause of the gropping
B) for all the cases of fake positives that were reported/ miss reported https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7kor5nHtZQ
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,286
We seek out jrpgs voluntarily
We seek out anime
We seek out entertainment which comes from a certain japanese culture
We are foreigners
It's their art

I know he's banned but I wanna add to this part. Almost all of the posts here are about big releases that you could see in Best Buy, Game Stop, or Walmart. No one cares about obscure porn games because they're advertised as such. The point of a lot of criticism is that you can't buy a non-porn game without at least a solid chance something pervy is in it anyway. Nobody is talking about obscure imports. If you can walk into a retail store in the States and pick up MGS5, Fire Emblem, or Nier, then those developers wanted it sold here and they can nut up about criticism of their product.

That's not the case for other media. I can go watch a big budget movie and depending on the genre, I'm safe in assuming no panty shots. Sure, it happens sometimes (Justice League) but it's usually called out much better than in gaming.

We've gotten to the point where even "progressive" gaming sites can only say "yeah it's gross but that's how it is sometimes." That's got to change.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,288
althought fanservice its a heavy part of the japanese media (games, Tv shows, anime, manga, etc) when it comes to real life Issues Japan does takes matter in hand properly to protect women, take example, the women only carts in trains or in matters related to prostitution, woman is considered always the victim (even in cases where she solicited) so if one is caught engaging in it, is the costumer who will receive charges.
so why is such a disparity between real world views and media views?, beats me
Women-only cars are a form of segregation because Japan refuses to adequately punish sexual assault via groping in train cars.

The reason those things exist is because of sexism, not because they are progressive. The measures don't fix anything - Japan's basically hit an iceberg with this and instead of actually fixing it by getting everyone off the damn ship, they're giving people buckets and telling them, "good luck."
 
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MaskedNdi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
294
althought fanservice its a heavy part of the japanese media (games, Tv shows, anime, manga, etc) when it comes to real life Issues Japan does takes matter in hand properly to protect women, take example, the women only carts in trains or in matters related to prostitution, woman is considered always the victim (even in cases where she solicited) so if one is caught engaging in it, is the costumer who will receive charges.
so why is such a disparity between real world views and media views?, beats me

This isn't true. Rape and sexual assault are rarely prosecuted in Japan. Groping on trains is still a major issue. Child pornography was legal in Japan until 2014; videos, books and cafes that heavily sexualize underage girls are still legal. Sexual harassment in the workplace is also a major problem.

Obviously, sexism isn't an issue that's unique to Japan; it's a problem all over the world. I just don't get why people seem to think that sexism in Japan is confined to their media.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,524
So this just came across my desk.

MAN! I'm really excited for the new Virtual ON! I love that franchise! It's teaming up with Index is a little weird but everything should be fin-

DQdz_v6VoAAK0Ar.jpg

QqWzzZzpXL


...wait what is tha-

dqdz_v6voaak0ar81uh8.jpg


OH.

I see.

I see...

I can't just have my game about digital robots anymore huh?
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
So...I read half of index and like, a good chunk of Railgun.

I don't remember anything like that in those mangas.

I don't even know anything about Index other than being an anime, but somehow I knew the collab would bring this kind of fanservice into the game :/ I mean, they put anime into Virtual On to get some extra sales, so I expected them to go further and create ¿new characters? that look like that.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,524
Index is prototypical light novel pandering. You didn't think Touma constantly walking in on a naked Index was an indicator of that? Or the mid 20's-30s aged teacher that looks like she's 5?

I mean, there's a difference between a standard trope that happens in literally every anime or manga in existance and...this.

Like, I dropped both mangas because they weren't going anywhere but I can't say I remember anything super over the top like this design. Is she new? Did they make her for this game? Like....why?

Like, the most lewd design I remember is the girl on the track team who always wore spats. Up until I stopped, that was the craziest thing that happened fanservice wise. But here we are...

It's a pretty good hat.

No one else got a hat like that.

Edit: is this a VN?

The story mode may be a VN, similar to how P4A's story mode is a VN. But no, this is the latest iteration in the virtual On series. It's a fighting game about giant virtual robots.

 
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Opa-Pa

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,810
I'm not well versed about Japan's treatment of women outside of a few articles I've read, but those stats don't surprise me in the slightest. When a country produces the kind of media Japan does, it's clear that they have problems with women, yikes. I wish people who are truly invested in defending Japan and their media cared about these issues and realizes that problematic media are symptomatic of a culture's problems and also helps perpetuate them.

That's not the case for other media. I can go watch a big budget movie and depending on the genre, I'm safe in assuming no panty shots. Sure, it happens sometimes (Justice League) but it's usually called out much better than in gaming.

We've gotten to the point where even "progressive" gaming sites can only say "yeah it's gross but that's how it is sometimes." That's got to change.
Yeah, I've complained about this too, I don't like this mindset regarding Japan. When Hollywood produces some movie with sexist elements nobody is gonna give a shit about the US' culture and their differences or whatever. When Japan localizes something is because they seek an international audience for their product, and once their product gets out of Japan then it's up for the scrutiny of whoever has access to it, cultural differences be damned. And that's not even mentioning how it's kinda shitty to assume sexism and objectification of women are inherent to their culture, because it implies you think everyone in Japan accepts and identifies with those things.

It feels like people who uses those arguments simply want to use Japan's supposed culture as a shield to defend things they know are questionable.

So this just came across my desk.

MAN! I'm really excited for the new Virtual ON! I love that franchise! It's teaming up with Index is a little weird but everything should be fin-

DQdz_v6VoAAK0Ar.jpg

QqWzzZzpXL


...wait what is tha-

dqdz_v6voaak0ar81uh8.jpg


OH.

I see.

I see...

I can't just have my game about digital robots anymore huh?
It's not the same but you could always try Medabots instead!
61ttI4QHBEL_large.jpeg

Medabots-Girls-Mission_02-01-16_002.jpg

... Or not, maybe not, yeah.
 

petran79

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,025
Greece
That's not the case for other media. I can go watch a big budget movie and depending on the genre, I'm safe in assuming no panty shots. Sure, it happens sometimes (Justice League) but it's usually called out much better than in gaming.

We've gotten to the point where even "progressive" gaming sites can only say "yeah it's gross but that's how it is sometimes." That's got to change.

Western adaptation of Tekken...

kelly-overton-ass-crack-club-tekken-2010-05.gif
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
Regarding Japan and sex crime- a lot of people bring up the low number of reported raped and such as evidence things are better there for women.

Problem is? That's REPORTED crime. In a culture where "the nail that sticks out is hammered down", of course women aren't going to report people assaulting them. Especially not if it's their husbands or associates, who tend to be the most common rapists, IIRC.

Now we don't know just how much sexual assault is going on there but it's a safe bet it's around the same level as any other modernized nation.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,007
Canada

watham

Member
Oct 30, 2017
244
Alabama, USA
I'm at the point now where whenever I see a really overtly sexualised female character, I just find it extremely awkward and embarrassing.

Agreed. Straight up embarrassing. I understand sex sells but also...... teen boys can easily access that via the internet if they want it these days.
You know what's a lot harder to find? Women in strong roles not being objectified.
Games can do so much better. And they have to.
 

Chaparral

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
787
Canada
Agreed. Straight up embarrassing. I understand sex sells but also...... teen boys can easily access that via the internet if they want it these days.
You know what's a lot harder to find? Women in strong roles not being objectified.
Games can do so much better. And they have to.

Bolded: I'm starting to believe that mantra isn't true anymore, especially considering women's voices are getting louder and don't want to be stigmatized as just tools for titillation.
 

Stantastic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,493
so now seems like a good time to say this considering that post above,
iv been lurking this thread for a while on account of having nothing really to contribute, but i really admire how yall have kept this thread going in spite of all the drive by vitriol like that charming fellow above.
Im tempted to say the patience of a saint, but saints arnt usually known for being so good at calling people on their bullshit.
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,313
That's still cherry-picking. Most of the females in the early Fire Emblems don't look like Lene. Somewhere in the series however, that changes.

http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Brigid#FE4
I don't think minimizing how much worse the designs got for women post-Awakening by cherrypicking examples does anyone any good.
That image from Echoes was sidestepping my original point to begin with.

So let's say the next FE game doesn't have garbage designs like Nowi or Camilla, and it's closer to the older games. There's still the problem of many of the women not wearing pants, where designs like Echidna and Titania are fairly rare, and where the only older woman in the entire series that is a playable unit is Niime.

I love the series, but there's been some room for improvement for a long time. I want to see more than just a return to the presentation of the older games.
 

MaskedNdi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
294
Bolded: I'm starting to believe that mantra isn't true anymore, especially considering women's voices are getting louder and don't want to be stigmatized as just tools for titillation.

Sexually themed content certainly can sell a product, but the saying "sex sells" is a huge oversimplification. Like you mentioned, sexualization can turn people off. A MediaAnalyzer survey found that about half of the male participants liked sexual ads, but only 7% of female participants shared their feelings. Studies have also found that people are less likely to remember a brand or product when it's paired with sexual content. Attitudes towards sexual ads are less favorable than neutral ads are.

I'm not an expert on the subject, but I do work in marketing, and the general rule is to only use sexual content in advertising if it's connected to what you're trying to sell. If you're trying to sell lingerie, sexual ads make sense. Using sex to sell tampons or roofing services probably isn't going to be very effective.

As far as I know, there isn't any solid research on how sexualization and sexually-themed ads impact game sales, but it's definitely clear that games don't need sexualization to sell.
 
OP
OP
Persephone

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,437
I'm not an expert on the subject, but I do work in marketing, and the general rule is to only use sexual content in advertising if it's connected to what you're trying to sell. If you're trying to sell lingerie, sexual ads make sense. Using sex to sell tampons or roofing services probably isn't going to be very effective.

Oh god, the thought of sexualised tampon ads made my vagina clench up in cringe.
 

Choppasmith

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,415
Beaumont, CA
CannonFodder52

I still feel like the thing with Xenoblade X's faces are kinda overblown. Never bothered me. Seems like the problem with female characters in X look so small compared to 2 IMHO.

Also, related, came across this:



And course it's littered with "blasted SJWs not letting me enjoy mah video game bewbs" comments.
 

Bricks

Member
Nov 6, 2017
622
So, I was in Milan a few weeks ago, and inside Anor Londo the Duomo there was this statue. Made me think of all that's been said in this thread and elsewhere. That's an interesting male armour XD

IMG_3714_-_Milano_-_Duomo_-_Monumento_Gian_Giacomo_Medici_-_Foto_di_Giovanni_Dall%27Orto_-_13-jan-2007.jpg
 
Nov 2, 2017
418
Yea, it's definitely nowhere near as bad as Xenoblade Chronicles 2, that girl's stare does freak me out though.
Also didn't they censor some aspect of her in the localisation

I want to say that they changed Lin's age in the localization, but I'm not sure on that.

There were definitely some more revealing swimsuits that you could equip to her removed and/or altered.
 

RPGamer

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,435
Yea, it's definitely nowhere near as bad as Xenoblade Chronicles 2, that girl's stare does freak me out though.
Also didn't they censor some aspect of her in the localisation

Yes they did censor her underwear/bikini outfit, cause she was 13 or 14 in the game. Also japan had a boob slider that got cut for the western version ( iguess some would now demand it for Pyra lol) and some clothes were not available. But huge boobs, ass revealing throusers and "sexy"/bizare outfits were still available, nothing new for the series. I wouldn't say that Xenoblade 2 is worse in that aspect, imo it really isn't.

I'm in chapter 4 of Xenoblade 2 now, i only got two rare blades at this point, both are male (the soraya saga blade was my first). A very good RPG tbh.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Alright, I have reached the middle of chapter 8 in Xenoblade Chronicles 2. I know if I continue the story, I'll be locked out of some sidequests so it is here where I'll be trying to finish as much sidequest stuff as possible so most stuff will be on the side stories rather than the main one. That being said, I'm probably more than 2/3rds done with the game so I'll give my opinion on the game in relation to the fanservice.

Basically, it's really, really distracting. I genuinely enjoy Xenoblade Chronicles 2. I enjoy its characters, the story, the plot, and the setting a whole bunch. It does feel like a realized world full of unique factions and countries. I also enjoy the story for its melodrama quality. But the costumes and fanservice are so pervasive that its hard for me to just ignore. So many scenes are ruined because the clothes are just so fanservicey that the camera has to either rely on close ups of the face or just try and pretend like they aren't wearing ridiculous outfits to convey seriousness. And, as I alluded to later, many characters that start out with sensible designs get more fanservice-related ones later on in the game. Thankfully, Morag seems to be free from this effect, and never changes from her badass military uniform.

So, if you can look past the constant fanservice, I'd recommend this game. But if you find it distracting (and I don't blame if you do because its really, really distracting), then I have to say that it really doesn't get any better.
 

Opa-Pa

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,810
Before this very post, I only knew medabots to be a kid's cartoon... What in the actual goddamn fuck?
Medabots actually started as an RPG series in Japan, but for an anniversary it received an anime adaptation of the second game, which was dubbed in many languages and helped introduce the rest of the world to the franchise.

It's still a family friendly series though so it doesn't make much of a difference lol.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,288
So, I was in Milan a few weeks ago, and inside Anor Londo the Duomo there was this statue. Made me think of all that's been said in this thread and elsewhere. That's an interesting male armour XD

IMG_3714_-_Milano_-_Duomo_-_Monumento_Gian_Giacomo_Medici_-_Foto_di_Giovanni_Dall%27Orto_-_13-jan-2007.jpg
Most of these armors were ceremonial in nature - i.e. not used in battle. But yeah, also different standards of beauty and what the idealized male was supposed to look like.
 
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