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Xavillin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,028
I just found out my friend from HS and his girlfriend who I just met this semester aren't taking it next semester either. So that's 1 dude, 4 girls out. This really sucks. I haven't met him since for years either until this class, so it doubly sucks.

Well female led harem stories are all the rage now~ which protagonist will you be? The cool quiet guy who is a jerk, the wild aggressive guy with a heart of gold underneath it all, or the wiley youngster of the group?
The class clown (that's too harsh, the jokester?) of the class isn't taking it either, so 2 dudes out. So i'll be the new class clown? My quirky antics already get the whole class laughing. I don't think that will get me a harem though.
 
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Resilient

Resilient

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,418
Hey everybody. I'm about to update the OP, but I need a place to put these....walls of text. So I'm just posting them here to store them on ERA.
 
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Resilient

Resilient

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,418
The Whiteboard Method
note: originally written by I'm an expert

So here's the guide I (expert) promised for a while. It is long. It didn't have to be this long, but I wanted it to be. This is for someone wanting to dedicate themselves to Japanese to be at a level where they can genuinely read/listen (not speak) at a comfortable level at an accelerated pace. It is not for casual learners and it requires time and dedication. I know not everyone here cares about the JLPT, but this study will without a doubt allow you to pass at least JLPT2 without an issue. Our goal is 3 months, but 4-5 is fine too. In the beginning you may only study 1-2 hours, but by the end you will need to study at least 3 hours a day. Every day. There's no cheat days (minus obvious emergencies and issues). 3-5 months is such a short time in the grand scheme of our lives. Can you really not do something for a few fucking months?

The months that I followed this style of study essentially changed my life. It's the sole reason I am where I am in life. Such a small sacrifice for a lifetime of reward. Again, think of it like a diet. Shock your body in the beginning to make it used to it, then slowly make it just become a normal part of your life. Second nature. After the 3-5 months you will be able to learn new concepts so much more easily.

Nothing I say in here will be revolutionary. But if you do exactly what I write, I promise it will net you a result you haven't had before. The only way it doesn't is either you don't follow what I say, or you simply don't have the aptitude for learning languages and it requires even more effort on your part. This is a reality some face, and I fully disclose that I was bilingual before I ever started Japanese - an obvious advantage.

Just for simplicity's sake, Japanese is to me is divided into:

Reading/Writing (kanji), Listening, Speaking/Writing (composition), Thinking

Let's leave thinking alone for now as it's a completely separate topic that comes much later. The two things I can really focus on that will relate to most is the first two. Speaking/Writing is something that is incredibly important to the Thinking portion but I understand that it requires an ideal situation for most. It is incredibly hard for some people to have live, native Japanese people to practice with. You can do your best with all of technology's marvels, but in the end this will be the thing people struggle with the most. And it sucks, because it's the key to the switch that allows your brain to really think in another language. The biggest issue with Japanese is that the way you learn it and the way you use it are very, very different and this only becomes apparent when you do have ways of practicing it in natural settings (ie, not classes, message boards, penpals, etc). Settings where you don't have time to formulate sentences over and over, but are rather forced into actually making your brain express yourself in Japanese in the moment.

As a result, my original idea to make this guide be about production is just not feasible. I realize for most people here the goal is consumption. That's just how it is, so I'll cater to it. We can have a separate guide/post for the other two some time later.

Back on topic, all I can really go over here is Reading/Writing in a vocab/kanji sense and Listening (in a future post, because this shit is too long). To be fair, these are obviously incredibly important as well - especially the reading. Being able to understand is the key to being able to express. Imitation is the best way of learning. Reading or hearing something you think is useful, taking note of it, and then trying to use it will be your primary way of learning (just not language, but anything).

Reading/Writing (kanji):


What you will need:
  • Some resource that has all kanji and grammar needed up to JLPT2 (meaning everything before it as well), but preferably JLPT1. Don't care how you obtain this (random website, buy a textbook), just get it. You don't have to use the JLPT list, but you do need some comprehensive list. We're basically talking about jouyou. If it comes with English translations, great, if not, you'll get serious practice by looking everything up, but it will considerably add to your study time.
    I do recommend the Kanzen Master series, though I can only vouch that it used to be good, not that it still is. You do not have to spend a dime to get this stuff, but if you like having physical references, go for it.
  • A whiteboard and some markers, erasers, etc. I don't suggest paper simply because it will take too much time and create waste. A whiteboard is infinite paper. I suggest mounting it on a wall. You will do all of your studying standing. You lazy motherfucker.
  • Some type of dictionary. While we are not overly concerned about J->E, you will obviously have to know the basic meanings of grammar and vocab you learn if they are not readily available, and you should always stay curious and look up anything you don't know. Even a DS and the usual suspects will work. However, Jim Breen is all you really need.

Our goal here is simple, we want to be able to read Japanese at an almost native level by the end. This ability will open up so. many. doors. that I just can't put it into words enough. Forget your fuckin games and manga, you will be able to do so many of life's basic things that you could easily live in Japan without anyone holding your hand. Read listings for a job or apartment you want, understand details of agreements or contracts you sign up for, know what all of the signs and posters around you say, know all of the options at your bank.

You know all those people on gaf that say 'I learned English by playing English rpgs all day when I was a kid! Yeah me!' English has 26 letters.

English has 26 letters.

You're about to learn about 6000 individual characters, grammar points, and vocabulary in 3 months. And retain it.

Here's how. We're going to do three things. Learn kanji/vocab, learn grammar, read. I suggest beginning your studies with the kanji because it will allow you to 1. write the vocab and 2. write the grammar when you get to it. You never want to write anything but Japanese - meaning kana and kanji. No English on your whiteboard.

Kanji/vocab

What you really want to accomplish here is learning kanji along with vocab at the same time. This will get your word bank up in a much quicker fashion than studying words completely alone, and will make kanji easier to remember as well since you will associate them with words.

I've never used this site before, but here is an example of the type of list I'd expect you to use: http://www.jlptstudy.com/N2/N2_kanji.html

You want kanji, common words, meanings to common words. You also want stroke order, but you might have to look that up separately. Stroke order is important because by about a month into your study you won't have to look it up ever for another kanji basically forever. You will simply know how to write a kanji by looking at its radicals. But it's important to know the stroke order because it will help you retain the kanji and also help you not be a lazy ass motherfucker.

Even if you are not a beginner, I suggest starting with JLPT4 kanji because it will help keep your study all encompassing. By the end of this process you will have this photographic memory of all the stuff you studied from the sheer repetition. There is no reason not to just include it all, rather than start at some arbitrary point.

Every day we learn 25 kanji and their associated common words. In short, you will learn about ~60 unique items of kanji/vocab every day. On the first day you begin with 25. Sun, moon, one, two, three, etc. You write the kanji, learn the stroke order, write the common words, learn the common word pronunciation/meaning, and repeat over and over until you have them in your short term memory. Your goal is to be able to quickly write the common words without looking at anything but your vocab list.

Let me clarify this. When we introduce each new kanji, we write just the kanji with the stroke order for a few minutes. Then once we know how to write the kanji, our goal is to learn the common word associated with it and write that. The kanji are simply what create the word. You'll realize quickly most words are more than just the one kanji you're learning, and sometimes the other kanji aren't even on your immediate list. Here's where you need to make a judgment call. You can either choose to learn the other new kanji with the word or wait until you eventually get to the kanji on whatever list you're using where more likely than not your common word will appear again.

Let's use an example. We come across the kanji 車. We learn the word car, but we also learn 自転車. Ji and ten are not in our 25 kanji today, but you obviously want to learn that the word is ji-ten-sha. Now, do you add 自転車 to your common words list to write today (meaning you learn how to write ji and ten) or do you wait until you come across at least one more of them naturally in your study before you add it to your writing list. Inevitably 自転車 will be on your writing list, the question is just when.

How many common words do we associate with each kanji? Good question. Because we want to learn vocab, the truth is it'd be great if we could do every single word on whatever list you use, preferably a list that is including JLPT vocab. The list I linked above with the kanji should be giving you common words that are required for the JLPT. However, for time and common sense, eventually certain words will become too simple for you and the need to recite them will not exist. But, because we're not just learning vocab, but also kanji, every kanji must have at least one word associated with when you practice your writing list so that we ensure we hit every kanji daily.

'you mentioned a writing list.. da fuq is a writing list..'

Your first day of kanji study will be the only day you don't do your writing list. Starting from the second day, the first thing you do is write the common words from the previous day (by referring to some sort of master list, like the Japanese readings or the English meanings, whatever, as long as you're not looking at the actual kanji because you want to write the words from memory, not from copying). You must assign at least one master common word to each kanji, but you can do every single common word as practice (preferred until the word is truly ingrained). You can of course look at the words/kanji/meanings when you don't remember. But you're trying to commit them to memory by at least the third day of doing your writing list for each kanji.

In the beginning it will probably take only 5 minutes to do your writing list. Car, person, sun, etc. Then you learn your next 25 kanji and related vocab. Practice them. Finished. Then the next day, you write every common word you learned from ALL previous days. Next 25. Practice. Then writing list. Again and again.

Eventually what happens is writing all of the previous kanji takes longer than the hour or so you take for the new 25. I used to do kanji ever morning at 9. In the beginning I'd be done by like 10. By the end I would be working on kanji from like 9am-noon simply because of how long it took me to get through the cumulative list. I'm talking at least 2 hours of nothing but quizzing myself on previous kanji/vocab before I started anything new.

I'm sure someone is thinking.. 'that's it? I've followed the 10 new kanji a day method before.' But did you incorporate the writing, the vocab, the reciting, and dedicate hours to it? Did you overcome the challenge of going through even the simple kanji for the 900th time? Did you have the discipline to do this every single day for months? Even when the entire process eventually takes hours? And your feet hurt because you've been standing the entire time (because you're not a lazy motherfucker)? And your wrist hurts like hell because you're writing literally thousands of words every day near the end?

Every. Day. No excuses. If you can't do morning, do night. 25 kanji a day, 7 days a week, 4 weeks, an average of 700 kanji a month + thousands of vocab, takes a good 3-4 months to do. By the last few weeks you will be writing basically every jouyou kanji daily. The language will COMPLETELY CHANGE when you have these under your belt.

Again. White board. 25 kanji and associated words until you have them in your short term memory. The next day, redo from memory ALL the previous learned words and add on another 25. Do this every day until you complete the entire list. The last kanji on the list practice for at least 3 days after learning. Then you're done. Stop.

You will never have to study kanji or words again like this for the rest of your life because you will have such a giant bank that adding new ones to it takes minimal effort.

This is boring. This is just memorization. This is just repetition.

Yes. And you will only do it for a few months. A few short fucking months and you will know enough vocab and kanji to be on equal footing with a native 18 year old. Three months to completely change your level of understanding. Stop crying.


Grammar

We treat grammar like vocabulary. That is, each grammar point is something to be remembered as if it were a simple word, and then you move on to the next. Example:

はず or べき

You understand what these mean, you understand their formation, you find/read a couple examples. You write it on your white board. Done. You can literally learn these grammar points in 5 minutes each.

Hazu means this. Here's the formation. If I see it, understand it as this. The end.

Some grammar are very quick like this, and then are some that are more complex like ..うと..まいと where there are multiple parts. It doesn't matter. You can still memorize JLPT1 grammar the same way.

So how do we learn them? 10 grammar points a day. Using whatever resource you have, you learn the grammar point, understand how to form it, and then simply write the grammar point on your white board while reciting the definition. If you want to maybe copy an example sentence on to the whiteboard as well, that's fine, but obviously takes more time. What we're trying to do is treat grammar as these tiny tools that we can use when the situation needs - exactly like a word. If you were in a store and wanted an apple, what would you ask the clerk for? Ringo. It pops in your head. Similarly, if you wanted to tell someone that they should do something, what pops in your head? Beki.

On the first day you do 10. The next day, you begin your grammar study be reviewing the prior day's 10 and writing them on the white board. When I say write, I mean in Japanese the way you see them. Hiragana, kanji, everything. You then learn your new 10. The next day you go over the previous 20, and so on and so forth. You never begin learning your new 10 until you have gone through EVERY grammar point from before. Before you know it, going through every grammar point from prior takes an hour.

For beginners, obviously begin from a JLPT4 level of grammar. Even for non-beginners you might as well start from the bottom (like drizzy) so you're encompassing all grammar points. By day 4 or 5 you will say 'fuck this, I don't want to go over the first 40 grammar points, I've done them before, this is boring'. You have failed the method and can stop studying. Fuck off now, please.

We go over every. single. prior. learned. point every day before we learn another 10.

We're trying to make grammar be as simple as learning vocab. Grammar points as tools are easier to manage than these giant complex ideas. Let me help you visualize it. Here's jgram, a site I actually used in the early 2000s and even contributed example sentences too (through breen). I have no clue whether it's been updated or not or how recent it is, but here's the jlpt2 list they have:

http://www.jgram.org/pages/viewList.php?lv=2

See how each grammar point is short and sweet in list form? Point, formation, meaning, example. You could read every grammar point here in less than an hour. You have now read every major grammar point needed to be at an advanced level of Japanese. In less than an hour. When you picture Japanese like this, it seems way, way easier. If you can get through this list (along with the previous levels' lists, and, if you want, the one after) then you can genuinely understand more than 90% of anything in written Japanese (the remaining 10% is still quite large but is really specific stuff).

Again. Review any previous points learned. Then take a new 10. Read them, learn them, write them on your whiteboard. Do this until you complete the list. The last 10 on your list should be repeated at least 3 days before you feel comfortable with it. Then you're done. Stop.

This is boring. This is just memorization. This is just repetition.

Yes. And you will only do it for 3 months. Three short fucking months and you will know MORE than the required grammar you need to carry a basic convo or watch tv. Three months to completely change your level of understanding. Stop crying.

Reading

Read. Just read. In the beginning, read simple stuff, later on, read intermediate stuff, then read some advanced stuff. I think we've gone over plenty of example reading stuff in this thread that I don't need to dedicate a giant section to it. I won't tell you what to read or how long to. Just read.

Reading is what will SOLIDIFY THE KANJI, VOCAB, AND GRAMMAR YOU STUDIED BY SEEING IT IN A NATURAL CONTEXT.

The ONE big thing I did was this. When I came across a word or kanji I didn't know, I'd look up the meaning/reading and add it to a separate list than my kanji/vocab list. There's a very high chance that the word/kanji is indeed on your kanji list, just maybe not until an advanced level. So again you have a choice. Just learn the word and meaning and wait until you encounter it in your kanji study, or you go through the full blown process of learning the kanji and practicing the word as if it were on your writing list. Regardless of what method you choose, by doing a bit of kanji/vocab study like this in your reading, you will significantly reduce the time it takes to learn new kanji during your kanji study.

Example. You read 必要 in something. You learn how to read it and what it means, and write the kanji a few times, but basically put it out of your mind for now. A few weeks later on during your kanji study 必 is one of your kanji and you spend much less time with it since it's familiar and 必要 is one of the words.

All of these small things add up so that you're not spending as much time on the learning part but way more on the retaining it part. Reading will eventually be something you just do naturally and not have to dedicate a specific time slot for.

Final Note


So I did the above stuff every day for about 3 months. My schedule looked like this:

~9am - kanji/vocab
~10am - grammar
~11am - reading
~noon - other stuff not covered in this post

However, like I mentioned above in each section, eventually each section takes longer and longer. I was spending ~3 hours on kanji alone near the end. The trade off is you will finish grammar much, much earlier than kanji due to there being much less. Once you've finished your grammar list, you're done. Then it's just up to you how you maintain it - the obvious method being reading. Once you finish your kanji list, you're done. You don't keep writing all 2k kanji every day. You're done. You simply maintain it in a different way - reading.

Reading is the only thing you will continue after you're done with kanji/grammar. And you can do that for 10 minutes or 10 hours.

You will never write on a whiteboard ever again after these few months. Never. I promise. I haven't once. Never once.
 
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Resilient

Resilient

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,418
The Listening Method

Just to recap, for me (not me; expert) listening always followed my reading/writing study from before. It was a way for me to take a break from so much production and work on consumption.

So what is our goal here? To pass JLPT1 listening? That will come with this. You will overstudy with this method if that is your only goal. Our goal is much simpler. To understand spoken Japanese. Real life, a movie, a video, whatever. The ability to understand this language aurally will, just like the reading/writing, open up so many doors. And, moreso than the reading/writing, listening is what will form the base of your speaking (not covered in this post).

Things you will need for this process:

1. The internet.

I realized while researching how to do this method modernly that the internet has everything you will ever need now. You can inundate yourself with Japanese endlessly if that is your goal thanks to the internet.

2. A dictionary.

Two actually. Grammar and vocab. This can be physical or just the internet. In the beginning, you will need J->E for any words or forms you don't understand. I'd be lying if I said you can do this completely in J->J. I mean, if you can, do it, but most likely not. I couldn't in the beginning either, it took a good month (along with the other studies) to get to the point where all I used was alc.co.jp basically. That site still exists to this day. Use it.

3. A notebook, notepad, word document, whatever.

This is where we record meanings and timestamps of useful words and phrases. Yes, we're creating a list. However, I leave it up to you how you want to practice the list. For me, I did the oral method, which we'll get into more detail later. If you want to combine this practice along with your reading/writing, you most certainly can as you will come across new vocab and kanji all the time.

Shall we dance?

Let me make one thing clear, absolutely, positively, do not use songs for study. Songs are incredibly stylized, symbolized, and molded by their genre. Think about this logically in English. If someone tried to learn English using country music, or hiphop, or rock, how different their experiences would be. Would they ever hear that kind of English anywhere outside those songs? Songs are something you can enjoy on the side and delve into much later, but do not try to dissect songs and learn from them. Don't. do. it.

Don't. do. it.

You will waste your time. Don't tell me about how easy and slow your favorite anime or drama song is. Please, trust me. Don't do it.

For listening I identified three types of content back in my study days:

Natural, News, Scripted

Natural: What you hear on an unscripted talk show, in live interview/documentary, in a podcast. Quick, dialect-dependent, little enunciation, contains slang or common abbreviations of words/phrases, is the most useful but most difficult.

Examples of what I used back in the day: Heyx3, random game shows, Waratte Iitomo

News: Extremely formatted, extremely clear, usually spoken by professionals with beautiful pronunciation. Some might say this is the least useful but I disagree as it teaches excellent grammar and because understanding news is important for understanding any culture.

Examples of what I used in the day: Basic NHK news, any kind of newscast or podcast. Nowadays you can literally get streamed tv channels like this - http://wilsonjj.me/jptv/# (note, not necessarily good for this method as we need the ability to pause and rewind)

Scripted: Movies, dramas, anime, whatever. This is the easiest to understand but also the least (immediately) useful because things are written to flow for story telling, not the way they would in real life conversation. So you get these short bursts of useful stuff but it's up to you to properly apply them.

Examples of what I used back in the day: Any NON-FANTASY drama, movie, fuck it, even anime if you want. I say non-fantasy because you want more practical stuff before you move onto these niche categories. Why fill yourself up with dumb shit like 'refill my mana.'

Part of the success of this program is the variety of the menu you create. You should not just watch dramas or talk shows every single day, rather mix it up and alternate so you expose yourself to all versions of Japanese.

Here's the actual method:

First, we choose a piece of media that can be paused/rewinded. I recommend video in the beginning to study with because it helps to see peoples' lips as well as their inflections. I didn't have podcasts back in the day but even then when I just had something on in my earphones I always wanted to see the speaker. Also, it's much easier rewinding on a computer than a phone or mp3 player. We do not want ENGLISH subtitles, but if we can get Japanese subtitles that is excellent (variety shows will have these somewhat). If you do have the option of Japanese subtitles, use them AFTER you attempt listening to it a few times and if you're truly stumped. With variety shows, you can practice your simultaneous reading+listening with their popup subs.

Once you have your piece of media. You watch it and stop every time you don't understand something. Yep, we're going to go piece by piece through the content and almost transcribe the script. Let me pause (harhar) right here and get something out of the way. I figured I'd put this note inside the method so it grabbed people reading this far. Do not do this study method with something you want to enjoy.

What I mean is, let's say you really want to watch Hana Yori Dango (part 1+2). Using this study method will make you hate the show. If you really want to watch it, watch the show first and enjoy it. Then, if you want to use it as one of your study pieces, go for it. But you will hate yourself and the content if it's something you actually want to relax with. I wholeheartedly recommend consuming it first.

Now, back to the method. I would go sentence by sentence until I hit a spot I didn't know. I'd rewind it over and over until I could understand every word. I'd write it down in Japanese, define any word/grammar I didn't know, then repeat it OUT LOUD VERBALLY. Finally I would timestamp the line.

Just to be clear, we're not transcribing every single line - only ones we find new (as in don't understand), difficult, helpful, or interesting. You could definitely transcribe it all if you want for practice, but again, common sense, time saving, and fatigue. Now, of course, getting through a single episode of say a 45 minute drama usually took me 2-3 hours, sometimes even split between two days. This is why you want to enjoy the show first if it's that kind of thing for you.

At the end of the content, I'd review my entire list and go timestamp by timestamp to listen to the moment again and RECITE IT OUT LOUD. This part was important for 1. making it stick in your head, 2. practicing pronunciation and any dialect, 3. practicing not being a pussy and being willing to speak Japanese out loud. You'd be surprised how many people are afraid of speaking out loud for 'fear of sounding dumb.' Looking dumb is worse.

Let's review. I would create a menu of content for a week. For example:

Monday: Drama episode
Tuesday: News
Wednesday: Talk show
Thursday: Drama episode
Friday: Game show
Saturday/Sunday: Review by rewatching all 5 previous media without pausing or using notes.

I would begin the media and pause whenever I felt I didn't understand something. I'd rewind until I felt comfortable I knew what was being said. I'd transcribe the line in Japanese, define unknown phrases using some sort of dictionary, timestamp it, and practice it orally. Then continue on until I hit the next piece I didn't understand. Repeat until finish media. Then, review using timestamps and practice the listening/reciting again. At the end of the week, I would rewatch each piece of media without notes and without pausing, letting my ear and brain adapt naturally.

And that's it. No writing list, no insane repetition, just good old fashion study. Nothing revolutionary. Depending on what I watched, I could be done with this exercise in an hour or a lot more. Also, outside of this study I also freely consumed shows/movies/news/whatever without using this method. Just enjoying and watching naturally.

In my opinion, this part of my study is what gave me my greatest advantage when going up against others, even greater than reading kanji. A native speaker not having to slow or dumb down their talking to you is such a wonderful thing for them.

A few quick FAQs:

What if I listen to something over and over and just cannot comprehend/make it out?

You have two options. If you have access to a native speaker, you ask them. Dead serious. I did this many times with friends and it made a world of difference understanding why I couldn't comprehend. Maybe it was the way a word was pronounced differently than I thought it'd be. Maybe it was slang or a dialect. Maybe I just didn't know the right vocab. The other option is to let it go. Don't kill yourself over one tiny piece if you just can't get it. I definitely did not 100% understand the media by the weekend review. Don't get caught up on that.

What if I kind of understand something..like I get the meaning and know all the words.. it's just.. too fast?

It's up to you how much supplemental stuff you take note of. In the beginning, you'll say 'oh, I know what he said, I just couldn't repeat it right now if you asked me to.' If you want to pause and practice that phrase or pattern, go for it. Just realize it will make the process much longer. If you're at a point with certain things that you understand but just have trouble producing off the top of your head, it's worth it to study it a bit to get it to stuck.

What do you recommend to start with?

No fantasy, no songs, no weird shit, and be very careful of dialect-heavy stuff in the beginning. I chose Heyx3 as one of my early shows and it was PAINFUL. The payoff was amazing as my Japanese was in default Kansai-ben, I ended up living in Kansai, and I married someone from Kansai.. but it was definitely throwing myself into the fire from early on.

I recommend basic interview shows, like the morning talk show segments. I recommend simple concept dramas. For example, no Hanzawa Naoki, yes Gokusen. I recommend any NHK-like segment or documentary. Even that Hotcast podcast people listen to here is good for natural content. I gave it a few minutes listen.

What's the number one thing to watch out for when practicing listening?

Let me end on this. A lot of people say Asian languages have a hard time expressing every kind of situation or emotion that western languages can. I completely disagree. Actually, I think Asian languages, especially Japanese, can express things that even English can't.

In the beginning with this method, if you're not well-acquainted with verbal Japanese, you will scratch your head at all of the ~eeeeee, naniiiiii, ureshiiiiii, oishiiiiiii type of shit. You'll ask yourself, do I really have to sound like that when I speak Japanese? Yes. Because it's a part of how they express themselves, and knowing that form of expression is important for you to convey ideas to them that they can understand. I'm almost diving into speaking, which I won't do here, but take note in your listening practice just how similar yet utterly different the Japanese way of saying something is. Take note of all the little things you notice they verbalize that we would never in English, and why it's natural for them, but sounds so unnatural for us.
 
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Resilient

Resilient

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,418
OPを更新しました!

That took a while, didn't it? The OP is now updated, and the formatting is messy, but that can be fixed over the coming days.

It's rough, and I figured it would be best to just post it and get the feedback it needs from the community, so that the thread can shape the OP - rather than it just being what アラナエ and myself think. Fair?

Now...can I ask a favour of anybody in this thread? We need some banners - I want to make that OP look pretty. Anybody willing to volunteer? I like the simplistic style of Manga ERA personally!

Also, I'm waiting on Kilrogg to update his post to include the Production/Listening section (we hit the character limit..)
 
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The Google Translate app with OCR is such a godsend. Whenever there's a word I don't know, Google Translate has the answer. Yomichan is great too.
 

Nabbit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,422
Thank you a ton Resilient for your detailed instructions above as listening is what I struggle with the most.

A couple side questions if I may (for anyone).

1) When writing vertical script, does the elongated vowel symbol (the dash) get its own line? I assume so but have not kept track.

Ex.









2) There's this line in the theme song for Hiyokko that is confusing me immensely.

愛の言葉をリル

I'm watching it primarily for enjoyment and I can make out most of the rest of the song. But, I don't understand をリル and can't seem to figure out リル in this context. What does it mean?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!
 

Cat

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Well, I turned in my last Aerospace project for the semester... all that's left is my Japanese oral final that I feel woefully unprepared for.
 

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Hey fellow gakusei, I just updated the second part of the OP with a subsection on accent, so you can check it out there or read on!


A word on accent

Being able to understand what you hear and to produce coherent strings of words is obviously crucial. The previous section is all about that. But being able to sound good and natural is important too, especially if you want people to take you more seriously and not like "another one of those cute gaijin folks". So, as with any language, Japanese has its own rules and idiosyncracies when it comes to accent, pronunciation, rhythm and prosody that you'll have to work on if you want to speak Japanese and sound good while doing it. Pronunciation is commonly studied no matter what method you use, but there is more to having a good Japanese accent than pronunciation.

Enter pitch accent. Pitch accent is a type of accent that you won't find in many languages. It's unlike stress accent (found in English or German) and tones (found in Chinese) in that it simply dictates how high or low a syllable should sound relative to the rest of the word/sentence. Japanese teachers usually aren't equipped with the tools required to teach it properly, and even when they do, they'll usually struggle to teach it well, or will brush it off by telling you to "speak in a flat manner". Which is not very useful advice, especially if your native language is English. If you have Japanese friends or a Japanese partner, chances are they won't be able to help you because they don't even know what pitch accent is; they've all learned it growing up on a subconscious level, without ever actually studying it. In other words, if you want to have a good accent in Japanese, you'll have to know where to look to find resources.

Fortunately, there is one guy out there who's made it his mission to make learners of Japanese aware of pitch accent, and to teach them how to recognize it and reproduce it. He's an American YouTuber known as Dogen who primarily makes short comedic videos in Japanese. As of this post, he's just wrapped up his first series of pitch accent lessons with over 30 video lessons, including how to accent words based on the number of syllables, their grammatical nature, how to apply pitch accent naturally over whole sentences, and what resources to use to look up pitch accents. He's now about to make a series on pronunciation. Unfortunately, while his comedic content is all free, his lessons are behind a monthly $10 paywall on Patreon, save for lessons 1, 2, 3 and 7. However, as a Patreon supporter myself (Kilrogg), and having talked with him on multiple occasions, I can vouch for the quality of his content. Besides, you can essentially spend $10 to get a one-month subscription, and that'll give you instant access to all 30+ pitch accent lessons. In my opinion, it's absolutely worth it. For a taste of his pitch accent lessons, check out this:



Other free lessons:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SiBj75Dd0I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_s6QqmJd7k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRSXbqjC2Yg

I especially recommend the last video if you already know about pitch accent and just want to know where you can look up specific pitch accents. Some good places to start are:
- the NHK Accent dictionary, found in many portable electronic dictionaries
- the integrated Japanese dictionary found in MacOS (see Dogen's video for more info)
- the Firefox plugin Rikai-sama used in tandem with Rikai-chan. Sadly, Rikai-sama hasn't been ported to the new Firefox plugin engine yet, and might not ever be, so you'll have to use FireFox 56 or older to use it.

As for how to study pitch accent in context, Dogen goes over that as well, but a good rule of thumb is to watch movies and drama episodes on repeat - NOT anime if you can help it - actively listening for pitch accent, and to record yourself.
 

Cat

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Amazing posts, Kilrogg! The phonetics videos are exactly what I've been looking for.

Would anyone like to share stories of their oral exams? I'm feeling pretty nervous, and I would love to read some Era experiences. Funny, triumphant, embarrassing... anything will do. ;)
 

RM8

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Oct 28, 2017
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Has anyone heard of the J-Test... test? Lol. Apparently it's an alternative to the JLPT, and you can apply at a bookstore in Shinjuku. It seems to actually test your ability to produce Japanese, too. The best thing is that it takes place 6 times a year! I'm thinking of applying, even though I realize it probably doesn't have any value other than testing your level of Japanese.
 
Oct 26, 2017
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I haven't heard of it! It looks like it's a little bit cheaper. Which level would you do? It looks like they have normal and business.
 

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Amazing posts, Kilrogg! The phonetics videos are exactly what I've been looking for.

Thank you! They're dope, definitely check them out.

Would anyone like to share stories of their oral exams? I'm feeling pretty nervous, and I would love to read some Era experiences. Funny, triumphant, embarrassing... anything will do. ;)

Are you that girl who posted a clip of her speaking Japanese at an exam a while ago?

There aren't many oral exams that I can remember when it comes to Japanese, but somehow they all went fairly smoothly. I remember one in particular where the teacher asked me to talk about the ongoing conflict between Japan and South Korea over the Dokdo/Takeshima island. I was like "gurl, you serious right now?", but then it went fine, eh. To be fair, she was a very nice person.

I've always been more terrified of German oral exams lol.
 

Cat

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Thank you! They're dope, definitely check them out.



Are you that girl who posted a clip of her speaking Japanese at an exam a while ago?

There aren't many oral exams that I can remember when it comes to Japanese, but somehow they all went fairly smoothly. I remember one in particular where the teacher asked me to talk about the ongoing conflict between Japan and South Korea over the Dokdo/Takeshima island. I was like "gurl, you serious right now?", but then it went fine, eh. To be fair, she was a very nice person.

I've always been more terrified of German oral exams lol.

I am not! I'm not sure I could stomach posting a clip of myself speaking.

The exam went great, I was worried for nothing.
 

Xavillin

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Oct 25, 2017
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Amazing posts, Kilrogg! The phonetics videos are exactly what I've been looking for.

Would anyone like to share stories of their oral exams? I'm feeling pretty nervous, and I would love to read some Era experiences. Funny, triumphant, embarrassing... anything will do. ;)
My Sensei this semester didn't give us any oral presentation outside of the final oral test (in which she allowed us to do a video, so it doesn't really count). But my Sensei back in HS had us do oral presentations every week, and that was so fun even if we weren't that great. My shtick was that I was the Godzilla loving freak whose pants exploded when I heard about the new Godzilla movie was announced, so my stuff were always funny. I should tell my Sensei next semester to allow us to do more class oral presentations.

And speaking of which, today was the last day of Japanese class. It's only a little under a month before classes begin again, but i'm gonna feel so empty.
 

L Thammy

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Finally finished my Anki deck. Joyo kanji, top 2000 words from a frequency list, and I've got them arranged three ways (kanji first, kana first, meaning first). Ended up being over 11,000 cards.

I might be a fan of overkill.
 

hashtagrekt

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Oct 26, 2017
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Is it safe to say enough time has passed on old and new forum without expert to debunk the theory that be some how kept a large number of people from feeling comfortable to post? This thread hasn't exactly been a hotbed of activity since his absence. Did he not transition over here?
 
Oct 26, 2017
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My theory was that a lot of people just took the JLPT and are taking a break.

皆さん、どこの国の人ですか?なぜ日本語を勉強しようと決めましたか?

お先に書きます。

僕はアメリカの者です。日本語を勉強する理由は、日本語を勉強する前に英語しかわからなくて、ずっと他の言語を学びたかったからです。それで色々な国の言葉の中で日本語が一番かっこいいと思ったからでしようか。
 
Oct 26, 2017
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カナダ人ですが、アメリカにすむ。

(the quoted portion of your post is the only thing I can read without a reference...)
No problem! I was also asking why everyone decided to start studying Japanese.

By the way, if I may offer unsolicited advice, you might want to say すんでいます since you used keigo when you said ですが and you are currently living there.
 

Jintor

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Is it safe to say enough time has passed on old and new forum without expert to debunk the theory that be some how kept a large number of people from feeling comfortable to post? This thread hasn't exactly been a hotbed of activity since his absence. Did he not transition over here?

Tbh when he showed up in the discord i got enough chilling effect to stop posting in there or here.
 

Jintor

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sure because as time continues you stop worrying about stuff as much

but the immediate 'oh yeah that guy is here... oh hah he's talking about having alts in resetera... maybe i'll just avoid the thread for now' lasted enough to stop me posting here for a bit.
 

Jintor

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he cared enough to show up in discord months after he got banned in the old country, so
 

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Don't really get the issues people had with expert other than that he was often rude and inflammatory. It definitely got discussion moving at least.
 

アラナエ

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I mean like, you did just kind of state the reason, even if you consider it to be one that you personally don't really mind that much.
 

hashtagrekt

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The old forum exploded and there was a mass exodus. Don't think it's unusual that he still followed the forum after he was banned. Not really about caring. One could say you care enough about him to actively avoid him.

Either way my point was just the activity in these threads without him clearly shows he had little effect on posters. Which I believe was a comment some made but didn't actually back up since they don't post here regularly regardless.
 

Jintor

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i mean i'm telling you my experience and opinion of why i avoided the threads but okay
 
OP
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Resilient

Resilient

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December is messy in my industry, so I just kinda had more important stuff going on. Posting here was an afterthought. Sorry.

Been watching 99.9刑事専門弁護士 which is Fkn ace, highly recommend it even if it's a bit "problem of the week". It's still really good.

I also saw the JoJo DiU Chapter 1 live action movie tonight and it was...something else. Was entertaining at least.

That's about it for me when it comes to Japanese. Gonna start Xenoblade2 when work wraps up this week.
 
OP
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Resilient

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re: expert. Never seen one person have so much of an effect on one community for ... nearly 3 years. Wonder why that is?

Fact is, whichever alt he has posted under has provided a shit ton of resources and knowledge to the community, which we still use today. Those debates and discussions form the basis of a lot of the content in the OT which is all helpful stuff. He also pushed a lot of people to better themselves when it came to the language. Whether it was all a ruse or not doesn't matter in the end if expert helped you in some way - you became better from it, and that is a net gain for you.

Basically. Whether you like him or not, he has helped a lot of people. If his posting style has caused you to avoid the thread and subsequently avoid studying the language, that suggests to me you aren't all that serious about it in the first place. If him singling you out to pressure/push you to learn more made you stop posting here; again, that's on you if it causes you to give up. You can always hit the ignore button.

Despite all that. I've never viewed any of his past posts as seriously offensive. And I've read pracrically every post the last 3 years. The dude waited for me to say I didn't pass the JLPT1 last year and slammed me instantly for it. It was funny. I'm still studying and I'm still standing here. You should be too.
 

hashtagrekt

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Oct 26, 2017
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I'll stop kidding around then. Hopefully one day he will grace us with this presence and Japanese can actually be discussed.
 

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I mean like, you did just kind of state the reason, even if you consider it to be one that you personally don't really mind that much.

Fair enough! My take is that, inflammatory or not, his posts added more value to people who were serious about learning Japanese than they detracted from the community, but while I may not be able to relate, I can understand conceptually that his style of posting scared/put off people from participating.
 

Hypron

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Oct 27, 2017
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Yeah Expert (or is it hashtagrekt now?)'s advice (and the advice of other people in this thread) really helped me out. Dude can sound like an asshole/troll but he still gives some useful advice so I wasn't bothered.
 

Jintor

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しょうがない。In any event I'm still in the midst of a move, so I hope to be able to buckle down to more than just my reviews and reading NHK easy/weekly lessons (which are helping a bunch) soon.